Car ownership changed without consent

davemac1

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone knows about this or has and experience in this field.

My car was written off a month ago. I was the 3rd party. I had a replacement car for the initial week and during that time I was informed my car was being written off.

I sent off to get a replacement log book as I wasn't able to locate mine at home during this time. I've been without a car for the past 3 weeks and have had to use public transport, rent a car and borrow friends and family members cars' during this time for work.

During this time the insurance company sent me 2 letters asking to send in the log book so that the claim could be settled.

Earlier today I called Shannon as I still haven't received my log book. I was informed by the lady on the phone that the vehicle is no longer in my name and that it's register to a garage but wouldn't disclose because of confidentiality.

I'm really angry about this. Not only have I been stuck for transport for the past 3 weeks and have had to miss days of it, I'm also out of pocket too. But the thing that has annoyed me most is that they changed the ownership without my consent or signature. Is that not the whole point of the log book? The very thing I was waiting for like an idiot!!!

Anyone know how I should proceed from here? I've called the insurance company (one of the largest in the country) three times since and no one is free to speak to me. Any help is appreciated.

Seth Brundle

Don't have the answer in terms of the change of ownership but:

1. Don't contact the insurance company unless it is in writing; othewise the conversation never happened!
2. in terms of the transport inconvenience, have you included this within your claim?

davemac1

kbannon wrote: »

Don't have the answer in terms of the change of ownership but:

1. Don't contact the insurance company unless it is in writing; othewise the conversation never happened!
2. in terms of the transport inconvenience, have you included this within your claim?

Thanks for the response. No I didn't include this as they told me I was only entitled to a replacement car for the first week. I haven't kept any receipts etc.

Allinall

Are you sure the car was registered in your name at all?

colm_mcm

check vehicle transaction enquiry on motortax.ie

davemac1

Allinall wrote: »

Are you sure the car was registered in your name at all?

100% she said I'm down as the previous owner.

I don't understand how they could have changed it without me signing for it.

Seth Brundle

davemac1 wrote: »

Thanks for the response. No I didn't include this as they told me I was only entitled to a replacement car for the first week. I haven't kept any receipts etc.

Are you claiming off your insurance policy or another persons?

Do you have a solicitor engaged on this?
Get proper advice and don't trust the word of a private company who want to pay you as little as possible.

Atlantic Dawn

Would your issue not be with Shannon in that somehow fraud was committed and they allowed the car be reregistered to someone else without your consent?

davemac1

kbannon wrote: »

Are you claiming off your insurance policy or another persons?

Do you have a solicitor engaged on this?
Get proper advice and don't trust the word of a private company who want to pay you as little as possible.

I will have to go to a solicitor in the morning. I understand any advice given here is only that, advice. It's appreciated nonetheless. I am claiming off the person who rear ended me, both cars were write off.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Would your issue not be with Shannon in that somehow fraud was committed and they allowed the car be reregistered to someone else without your consent?

Well the insurance company told me to send it to their garage. I did and they informed me it was a write off, so now I'd imagine they have taken ownership of the vehicle.

Seth Brundle

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Would your issue not be with Shannon in that somehow fraud was committed and they allowed the car be reregistered to someone else without your consent?

I don't know the ins and outs of it but there is an online facility for dealers to complete changes of ownership
https://www.motortrans.ie/CVO/start.do?page=welcome

Seth Brundle

davemac1 wrote: »

I will have to go to a solicitor in the morning. I understand any advice given here is only that, advice. It's appreciated nonetheless.

Your insurance company may have one for you (if you're claiming against the other person's policy)

colm_mcm

think they need the serial number of the vrc to do it online. however an old type rf105 doesn't need any documents. only owners name and address.

davemac1

kbannon wrote: »

I don't know the ins and outs of it but there is an online facility for dealers to complete changes of ownership

So dealers can take ownership of the vehicle without my consent or signature? I can own something and it can be taken away without me giving permission?

The worst part about all of this is I've been a month without my car and they haven't bothered to tell me. This has been such an inconvenice and I haven't even begun to look for a new car yet because I haven't received a cent for my car.

Basically they took ownership of my car, never told me and haven't given me a cent for it. All the while I've been getting the bus to work, borrowing cars or not going because I haven't had a vehicle. This seems like a complete farce to me. Maybe I'm not seeing the full picture here cause this seems too crazy to be true.

Seth Brundle

davemac1 wrote: »

So dealers can take ownership of the vehicle without my consent or signature? I can own something and it can be taken away without me giving permission?

I didn't say that!

davemac1 wrote: »

The worst part about all of this is I've been a month without my car and they haven't bothered to tell me. This has been such an inconvenice and I haven't even begun to look for a new car yet because I haven't received a cent for my car.

Basically they took ownership of my car, never told me and haven't given me a cent for it. All the while I've been getting the bus to work, borrowing cars or not going because I haven't had a vehicle. This seems like a complete farce to me. Maybe I'm not seeing the full picture here cause this seems too crazy to be true.

To be honest and without it meaning to sound like I'm blaming but the inconvenience sounds like a result of you choosing to use busses, etc. rather than them doing anything to inconvenience you.
As for the change of ownership, I don't know who owns the car currently. We're presuming it is the insurance company based on your recent events.

kirving

You need a solicitor.

If you weren't at fault, you should be entitled to a rental car until the claim is fully settled. Limiting you to a week would be the case if you were the one who was at fault, or claiming off your own insurance.

If you can't get a car, get taxi's wherever and whenever you need one and keep receipts.

No wonder there's no sympathy for insurance companies raising premiums when the honest guy gets screwed over in situations like this.

davemac1

kbannon wrote: »

I didn't say that!

I didn't think you were saying that! I was ranting more than anything so apologies for sounding like I was being snappy!

kbannon wrote: »

To be honest and without it meaning to sound like I'm blaming but the inconvenience sounds like a result of you choosing to use busses, etc. rather than them doing anything to inconvenience you.
As for the change of ownership, I don't know who owns the car currently. We're presuming it is the insurance company based on your recent events.

I had no option but to use a bus, my car was rear ended and written off. I had no other alternative to get to work.

I was under the assumption that it was my fault the claim wasn't moving forward as I hadn't produced the logbook. Little did I know that the reason the logbook hadn't been sent back to me was because the vehicle wasn't in my name anymore. How that happened I don't know. I genuinely thought it would all be sorted in around a week.

colm_mcm

will you put your reg into motortax.ie and at least you'll have the date that it supposedly went into a garage code.

davemac1

colm_mcm wrote: »

will you put your reg into motortax.ie and at least you'll have the date that it supposedly went into a garage code.

Done it there and it went in a few days after they told me it was written off.

Insurance sent me 2 letters afterwards requesting the log book to process the claim. I genuinely thought it was my fault that it was being delayed for not producing the logbook.

I didn't claim personal injuries (despite being rear ended at 20kmph without braking) and I don't want to sound like I'm being dramatic but this has been a serious inconvenience to me and everyone around me. I live 15km from the nearest town and I've had to use buses, taxi's and miss work because of this.

I have no issue with human error, people f**k up, thats life, but changing ownership without consent isn't a mess up and it's very frustrating that this happened and all along I was left in the dark.

mickdw

To be honest, if you have agreed on a settlement, I wouldnt get overly upset about the car being changed over because agreeing a settlement in a write off situation means you are agreeing to pass ownership to them. Not saying its correct what has happened but perhaps there is some obscure arrangement that allows it on foot of signed settlement agreement.

davemac1

mickdw wrote: »

To be honest, if you have agreed on a settlement, I wouldnt get overly upset about the car being changed over because agreeing a settlement in a write off situation means you are agreeing to pass ownership to them. Not saying its correct what has happened but perhaps there is some obscure arrangement that allows it on foot of signed settlement agreement.

We hadn't agreed on a settlement. I was waiting on the logbook before I continued any further, and I never thought it would take more than 5-6 days to receive.

Seth Brundle

davemac1 wrote: »

We hadn't agreed on a settlement. I was waiting on the logbook before I continued any further, and I never thought it would take more than 5-6 days to receive.

Only that basis, you need to get yourself to a solicitor asap and get them to advise on the best course of action.
My take on it was that there was agreement that they would scrap the car and pay you but if nothing was agreed I would be really making a big fuss over this.
It was probably an administrator error but that's not your fault.
By the way, notify your own insurance company of this (as you're technically not the legal owner) and also if your car is not drivable, then put the policy on hold until youre back on the road.

davemac1

kbannon wrote: »

Only that basis, you need to get yourself to a solicitor asap and get them to advise on the best course of action.
My take on it was that there was agreement that they would scrap the car and pay you but if nothing was agreed I would be really making a big fuss over this.
It was probably an administrator error but that's not your fault.
By the way, notify your own insurance company of this (as you're technically not the legal owner) and also if your car is not drivable, then put the policy on hold until youre back on the road.

They informed me the car was an economical write off and gave an rough estimate of what they valued it at (much lower than its current market value) but didn't discuss further.


My policy ran out about a week ago. And I didn't renew because I don't have a car atm and didn't know what I'd be driving next.

mickdw

davemac1 wrote: »

We hadn't agreed on a settlement. I was waiting on the logbook before I continued any further, and I never thought it would take more than 5-6 days to receive.

Well then a solicitor on your behalf will ask a couple of simple questions that will be very difficult to answer like -

How ownership of your car has transferred without permission of the owner
How ownership has transferred without terms being agreed with the owner.
As insurer of other party, I dont see how they have any authority over what happens your car whatsoever without your agreement.

davemac1

mickdw wrote: »

Well then a solicitor on your behalf will ask a couple of simple questions that will be very difficult to answer like -

How ownership of your car has transferred without permission of the owner
How ownership has transferred without terms being agreed with the owner.
As insurer of other party, I dont see how they have any authority over what happens your car whatsoever without your agreement.

That was my thinking on it. How can they basically sell my car without informing me and getting my permission but also remunerating me!?

mickdw

davemac1 wrote: »

That was my thinking on it. How can they basically sell my car without informing me and getting my permission but also remunerating me!?

They cannot.

robtri

Get a Solicitor, let them sort it out.
Ask your solicitor about car rental and out of pocket expenses while the claim is being finialised.

as to the car, you don't know if the insurance company sold it or the garage just took ownership as it was written off... and being honest let you solicitor sort that out.

Special Circumstances

One of the resident insurance acolytes will surely surface and put everyone's mind at ease?

"You are all scammers in your 10year old bangers and you are driving up the costs by engaging solicitors and not letting us make you jump through hoops to get a pittance. You just don't understand insurance"

That's the usual gist anyway isn't it?

Ahem...
OP. You WILL be worse off at the end of this process. Absolutely positively. You will most likely not recoup the true worth of your car. You will not be adequately compensated (if at all) for the time and hassle of dealing with people intent on doing you out of the full amount. You will pay for this accident for many years even if you are not at fault. Your ncb will be intact but you will still have to declare making a claim.

You will be at a loss at the end of the day, but the insurers will still imply that you are the scammer and that they are the victim.

Seth Brundle

Special Circumstances wrote: »

One of the resident insurance acolytes will surely surface and put everyone's mind at ease?

"You are all scammers in your 10year old bangers and you are driving up the costs by engaging solicitors and not letting us make you jump through hoops to get a pittance. You just don't understand insurance"

That's the usual gist anyway isn't it?

Ahem...
OP. You WILL be worse off at the end of this process. Absolutely positively. You will most likely not recoup the true worth of your car. You will not be adequately compensated (if at all) for the time and hassle of dealing with people intent on doing you out of the full amount. You will pay for this accident for many years even if you are not at fault. Your ncb will be intact but you will still have to declare making a claim.

You will be at a loss at the end of the day, but the insurers will still imply that you are the scammer and that they are the victim.

...and this is helpful because?
:rolleyes:

Special Circumstances

kbannon wrote: »

...and this is helpful because?
:rolleyes:

Sorry, I should have just said "get a solicitor"




Or maybe I didn't just want to parrot the same line being put out by everyone else and thought spelling it out would help.

Do you need/want any more explanation? Am I excused?

Special Circumstances

Lol, lo and behold, who thanked a negative remark on my post.

That was helpful to the OP how to Elland back? LOL.

Special Circumstances

kbannon wrote: »

I don't know the ins and outs of it but there is an online facility for dealers to complete changes of ownership
https://www.motortrans.ie/CVO/start.do?page=welcome

And this was helpful to the op how?
rolllllleyesssss

davemac1

Special Circumstances wrote: »

One of the resident insurance acolytes will surely surface and put everyone's mind at ease?

"You are all scammers in your 10year old bangers and you are driving up the costs by engaging solicitors and not letting us make you jump through hoops to get a pittance. You just don't understand insurance"

That's the usual gist anyway isn't it?

Ahem...
OP. You WILL be worse off at the end of this process. Absolutely positively. You will most likely not recoup the true worth of your car. You will not be adequately compensated (if at all) for the time and hassle of dealing with people intent on doing you out of the full amount. You will pay for this accident for many years even if you are not at fault. Your ncb will be intact but you will still have to declare making a claim.

You will be at a loss at the end of the day, but the insurers will still imply that you are the scammer and that they are the victim.

I just found out that the vehicle has changed ownership twice since they told me that it has been written off.

I don't really see how they have a leg to stand on if I seek legal advice.

My car was written off through no fault of my own, they then changed ownership of it twice all the while I received no money or compensation for it. I was left with no mode of transport and they left me in the dark about it. I'm not only out of pocket because of it being written off but I've also spent I'd say close to €300 on taxi's, can't imagine how much on buses and also loss of earnings because I wasn't able to work without a car.

I'm not the type that wants to pull the p*ss. Like I said I didn't try and claim an injury, I wanted it sorted as quickly as possible but this has really really inconvenienced me and on top of it all I still have to replace my car so who knows how long it'll take.

Esel

Thread title misleading.

davemac1

I honestly don't get it.

I own the car, it was in their care and now somebody else owns it!!! It didn't happen with my consent, surely that's theft or fraud???

mickdw

You are right. Just cause they are an insurance company who happen to insure another driver who happened to hit you gives them no power or control over you or your car. They are not the decision makers.
You are entitled to repair and other costs incurred. If the car is an uneconomical repair, you are entitled to market value. I also believe you are entitled to say that you wish to retain ownership if you take market value less salvage value.
There is no debate here. They cannot do what they did without at least having agreed a settlement with you. What is the car?

davemac1

mickdw wrote: »

You are right. Just cause they are an insurance company who happen to insure another driver who happened to hit you gives them no power or control over you or your car. They are not the decision makers.
You are entitled to repair and other costs incurred. If the car is an uneconomical repair, you are entitled to market value. I also believe you are entitled to say that you wish to retain ownership if you take market value less salvage value.
There is no debate here. They cannot do what they did without at least having agreed a settlement with you. What is the car?

It was an Audi. I don't know how I'm going to show what costs I've incurred as I wasn't keeping receipts as I was under the impression the delay was my own fault at the time.

Esel

davemac1 wrote: »

It was an Audi. I don't know how I'm going to show what costs I've incurred as I wasn't keeping receipts as I was under the impression the delay was my own fault at the time.

A judge probably would not require you to have contemporaneous notes in a case like this...

However, IANAL, and this is not the Legal Discussion forum. Seek legal advice - shouldn't cost you anything after the dust has settled. IANAL.

Special Circumstances

davemac1 wrote: »

I'm not the type that wants to pull the p*ss. Like I said I didn't try and claim an injury, I wanted it sorted as quickly as possible but this has really really inconvenienced me and on top of it all I still have to replace my car so who knows how long it'll take.

Okay I guess you've read between the lines of my post but you are sticking with your principles. Unfortunately it seems insurance claims always involve one side pulling the piss.

And it very much seems like they are right now. Unfortunately the insurance industry posters who lurk around here are too busy going back through all my posts (and thanking them all, bizarrely ) to give you any advice here.

They'd usually be very quick on here to say if this was normal procedure (with some dig at your intelligence too depending on the poster), so it sounds like the insurer you are dealing with has really got ahead of themselves.

cruizer101

Might be worth your while getting in touch with the Ombudsman about a complaint.
https://www.financialombudsman.ie/

davemac1

I spoke to solicitor there and I'm just waiting to hear back from insurance company now, who told me yesterday evening they would return my call within an hour but still haven't!

They had a duty of care and they changed ownership twice without my knowledge or consent and someone else now has ownership of my car and I haven't received a cent for it and have no mode of transport!!!

It'll be interesting to see what insurance has to say!

But I still don't understand how ownership was transferred without my knowledge or log book!!!

Seth Brundle

davemac1 wrote: »

I spoke to solicitor there and I'm just waiting to hear back from insurance company now, who told me yesterday evening they would return my call within an hour but still haven't!

At this point, make sure everything is documented.
If you are in contact with the insurance company, get the name, role and number of whoever you talk to. Also write down the time of the call and the key points of the conversation.

davemac1

kbannon wrote: »

At this point, make sure everything is documented.
If you are in contact with the insurance company, get the name, role and number of whoever you talk to. Also write down the time of the call and the key points of the conversation.

There's been no key points! They don't know what's happened! They have told me they would return my call and let me know but on both occasions they haven't!

They're baffled as to how the cars ownership has been transferred without consent or the log book, as am I

Seth Brundle

davemac1 wrote: »

There's been no key points! They don't know what's happened! They have told me they would return my call and let me know but on both occasions they haven't!

They're baffled as to how the cars ownership has been transferred without consent or the log book, as am I

Even that info is a key point.
If in six months you are still fighting this (hopefully not) will you remember every conversation?

davemac1

Spoke with insurance there and they have accepted that it's through no fault of my own.

They're still not aware how the car changed ownership but are looking for the answer. They want to settle the matter as quickly as possible.

My issue now is, and I know I sound greedy saying this, that I've been left out of pocket in a big way because of this mess up. I've had to get taxi's to and from work, buses and also missed days of work because of this. I obviously have no receipts to prove this as I never thought I'd need them but I think it's fairly obvious that leaving someone that lives 15km from their workplace without a car would greatly affect their life.

Anyone know how you could proceed with this? Would I have a leg to stand on or should I seek further legal advice?

Seth Brundle

You saw a solicitor earlier. Continue getting advice from them!

davemac1

kbannon wrote: »

You saw a solicitor earlier. Continue getting advice from them!

I did they told me to speak with them tomorrow if the insurance company didn't get in contact with me today. I'm not sure if the legal route is necessary?

Seth Brundle

davemac1 wrote: »

I did they told me to speak with them tomorrow if the insurance company didn't get in contact with me today. I'm not sure if the legal route is necessary?

You are looking for advice but are not sure if legal advice is necessary???

Get legal advice from your solicitor. You shouldn't need to ask about it at this stage. The insurance company are not going to be on your side once it comes to how much they've to pay!

Esel

kbannon wrote: »

You saw a solicitor earlier. Continue getting advice from them!

This +1000.

Put the matter in their hands. They should get proper compensation for you, plus their fees on top.

davemac1

kbannon wrote: »

You are looking for advice but are not sure if legal advice is necessary???

Get legal advice from your solicitor. You shouldn't need to ask about it at this stage. The insurance company are not going to be on your side once it comes to how much they've to pay!

Haha ok fair enough. Thanks for the non legal advice :-)

ants09

Why don't you get in touch with Vehicle Licensing Authority in Shannon and get the vehicle registered back in your own name ?

You didn't sign it over to them and you haven't received anything for it so that would be the first thing i do.

As for taxi fair's ? did you phone up for a taxi or did you get one on the street, if you phoned up for a taxi then the taxi company should have a record and could issue you with a receipt if you ask nicely

As for bus fairs, i assumed you paid by cash, if so best advice is see what your solicitor says

Esel

If I was you, I would have no further contact with the insurance company (apart from telling them if they call you that the matter is now in the hands of your solicitor).

Be sure that the solicitor you engage is recommended, and on the ball.