The future of James Bond

jimgoose

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

...SPECTRE would include an alliance of very funny bedfellows such as ISIS/al Qaeda, European neo-Nazis, survivalist extremists, megarich Iranian Revolutionary Guards hardliners, Ku Klux Klan, Saudi businessmen with extremist ideas, neo-Stalinists in Russia, mafias, North Korean hardliners, etc. all embedded in their own organisation...

...vs. Predator!

sky88

Ive always been a sucker for a toung in cheek bond like roger moore was but i dont think that would work at all now.

The craig bonds except for casino royale have been bad and just boring. I think craig was a good bond laboured with bad films just like brosnom was after goldeneye.

I would like a style closer to goldeneye where it was gritty but still had that cheesyness about it.

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

Fleming's original Bond is a deeply flawed, alcoholic, mysoginistic burnt-out killer. In other words, he's just about perfect. And Tim Dalton was the best Bond. There, I said it!!

edit:
The question "who was the best Bond" is incomplete. Really it is "who is the best after Connery"

BuilderPlumber

sky88 wrote: »

Ive always been a sucker for a toung in cheek bond like roger moore was but i dont think that would work at all now.

The craig bonds except for casino royale have been bad and just boring. I think craig was a good bond laboured with bad films just like brosnom was after goldeneye.

I would like a style closer to goldeneye where it was gritty but still had that cheesyness about it.

Goldeneye and Casino Royale are 2 of the best Bond films and directed by the same person. Of the other Brosnan and Craig films, some are underrated but Skyfall is normally considered one of the very best of the series too.

For me Tomorrow Never Dies is one of the most underrated films in the series. Great action, great climax, mad villain and may well be the third best in the recent Bonds after Casino and Goldeneye.

The invisible car tarnished Die Another Day. That film gets the rawest deal and it is not as 'bad' as some would have you believe. The pretitle for instance is awesome, easily one of the best of the series. The POW part also shows us a gritty Bond and a precursor to Casino Royale. The part when Bond goes into cardiac arrest is repeated in Casino too. Admittedly, most of the plot is borrowed from Diamonds Are Forever (the diamond-based weapon and the bad guy revealed to be a disguised version of a former enemy of Bond's among it), the swordfight was an update of Bond and Goldfinger playing the golf, and the climax was a mix of the plane scenes of Goldfinger and The Living Daylights. Ignore the invisible car and accept it as a Diamonds Are Forever remake with bits of The Living Daylights, Goldfinger, and Dr No thrown in and it is enjoyable.

The World Is Not Enough was marred by a relatively poor climax which ranks behind just SPECTRE and The Man With The Golden Gun as the worst (although a great shootout occurs in the caviar place to compensate). Overall, it has a good pretitle and good action and suspense. Quantum of Solace was overall good, lots of action, great climax. A bit on the short side though. Skyfall divides fans but for me it deserves its reputation and has plenty great action and a great climax.

SPECTRE has the worst climax of any Bond film to date. Some excellent earlier action like the train fight are let down by a poor ending. While I enjoyed the film, the worst aspect of it as I have often said is the rebooted Blofeld. While the actor was excellent in the part, the backstory was poor and was just a recycled version of the Alec Trevelyan and Silva characters.

BuilderPlumber

sky88 wrote: »

Ive always been a sucker for a toung in cheek bond like roger moore was but i dont think that would work at all now.

The craig bonds except for casino royale have been bad and just boring. I think craig was a good bond laboured with bad films just like brosnom was after goldeneye.

I would like a style closer to goldeneye where it was gritty but still had that cheesyness about it.

I think there has been a tendency to underrate Moore's films. It is obvious though that many of them are actually among the better of the Bond films. We must remember he made great films for his time and I remember Christmases in the late 1980s where TV schedules would not be complete without Octopussy, The Spy Who Loved Me and Moonraker (3 very good Bond films imo). Films like these provided great action and gave us views of exotic countries like India, Egypt and Brazil at a time when the average Irish person was not travelling to any of these.

SimonTemplar

I am a defender of a majority of Moore's movies except A View To A Kill, Moonraker and The Man With The Golden Gun

I was reading a modern review of For Your Eyes Only (one of my favs if you can ignore the ridiculous teenage girl character), and it mentioned this little tidbit: The film was made in 1981 when Moore was 54. His Bond girl Carol Bouquet is 58 today, 35 years later. :eek:

Wedwood

Roger Moore's Bond movies do stand the test of time despite what others might have you believe. His movies were made during a period when summer blockbusters were typically designed as family movies. The violence was not too gory and plenty of humour as well.

Moore's movies came out alongside the likes of The Towering Inferno, Poseidon Adventure, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, not to mention 'Jaws' of course and have to be viewed in that context.

Moonraker and Octopussy frequently get negative press from modern reviewers used to the more gritty fare these days, however both those movies were box office smashes in their day and Roger Moore was loved as Bond by audiences.

It's well known he disliked the more gratuitous violent scenes in A View to a Kill, such as when Zorin kills the workers, which illustrates that he saw his Bond films as primarily intended for families.

He made some other good adventure movies during that time such as North Sea Hijack, The Sea Wolves and Escape from Athena, which were similar types of 'boys own' adventures that were suitable for families.

Moore's take on Bond isn't a million miles away from Harrison Ford's Indiana Jones, or Michael Douglas' Romancing the Stone character, or Swarzenegger's one liner heroes such as Commando and Raw Deal. Even Stallone tried it a bit in Cobra and Over the Top.

You could actually argue Moore set the template for those subsequent movie heroes who got out of their scrapes with a smile and a one liner.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Tom Hardy?

Courgetti

jimgoose wrote: »

Fleming's original Bond is a deeply flawed, alcoholic, mysoginistic burnt-out killer. In other words, he's just about perfect. And Tim Dalton was the best Bond. There, I said it!!

in what way does Bond hate women?

He inflicts far more suffering upon men.

BuilderPlumber

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I am a defender of a majority of Moore's movies except A View To A Kill, Moonraker and The Man With The Golden Gun

I was reading a modern review of For Your Eyes Only (one of my favs if you can ignore the ridiculous teenage girl character), and it mentioned this little tidbit: The film was made in 1981 when Moore was 54. His Bond girl Carol Bouquet is 58 today, 35 years later. :eek:

Moore's films are underrated and very good. My favourites would be Octopussy, Live and Let Die, The Spy Who Loved Me, For Your Eyes Only and surprise! Moonraker.

I think Moonraker was good and had plenty good action. Most definitely, it was a cash in for space themed films of the time but the action and villain were above par. Jaws becoming good was a first for the series (it would be repeated by Magda, Mayday and Mr White later) and I know it divided people but for me it showed for a change a henchman who could think for himself.

A View To A Kill I like too but Moore was way too old at this stage for the role. Zorin stole the show here and he is a great villain. There are some great action sequences. I suppose The Man With The Golden Gun is Moore's weakest films. This was perhaps because it was made just one year after Live And Let Die and had gone from an Iran-based story to what we got. In other words, within just a year things changed drastically and it was rushed. Though I like it, the climax was one of the poorest of the entire series (SPECTRE is the only other one to have such a poor climax but that was written as a part 1 of 2 at least at the time). Bond and Scaramanga just go through that theme park type place and Bond shoots him and the latter fight on the boat with a dwarf could not be compared with Bond fighting Tee Hee, Oddjob, Gobinda, Stamper, Jaws, the big guy in SPECTRE or Grant.

BuilderPlumber

Wedwood wrote: »

Roger Moore's Bond movies do stand the test of time despite what others might have you believe. His movies were made during a period when summer blockbusters were typically designed as family movies. The violence was not too gory and plenty of humour as well.

Moore's movies came out alongside the likes of The Towering Inferno, Poseidon Adventure, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, not to mention 'Jaws' of course and have to be viewed in that context.

Moonraker and Octopussy frequently get negative press from modern reviewers used to the more gritty fare these days, however both those movies were box office smashes in their day and Roger Moore was loved as Bond by audiences.

It's well known he disliked the more gratuitous violent scenes in A View to a Kill, such as when Zorin kills the workers, which illustrates that he saw his Bond films as primarily intended for families.

He made some other good adventure movies during that time such as North Sea Hijack, The Sea Wolves and Escape from Athena, which were similar types of 'boys own' adventures that were suitable for families.

Moore's take on Bond isn't a million miles away from Harrison Ford's Indiana Jones, or Michael Douglas' Romancing the Stone character, or Swarzenegger's one liner heroes such as Commando and Raw Deal. Even Stallone tried it a bit in Cobra and Over the Top.

You could actually argue Moore set the template for those subsequent movie heroes who got out of their scrapes with a smile and a one liner.

Moore's Bond films were of their time as were Connery's, Lazenby's, Dalton's, Brosnan's and Craig's. Moore's Bond fitted in well with the blockbusters you mentiion.

Moonraker and Octopussy are for me and many good films that tick all the boxes. When it comes down to it, Octopussy is not all that different to The Living Daylights and From Russia With Love with bad Russians trying to take over from good Russians and Bond assigned to stop the mayhem. The action is excellent with plenty good shootouts, chases, fights and stunts involving planes. This was shown at Christmas many times in the 1980s and 1990s and is perfect entertainment that has great action, some gritty violent (for the times) scenes and a bit of humour.

Moonraker likewise offers a lot and is a a great film. There are great fights, chases and shootouts again and there is nothing wrong with the ray-gun shootout and space finale. In fact, if a film called Moonraker did not have this in it, audiences would feel shortchanged! The scene where Drax set the dogs on his poor employee was for a film of its time also gritty (of course, it is not as violent as the scene in Love/Hate series 2 where Fran sets the dog on Luke and Darren then kills the dog but that was 32 years later). That fight between Bond and the martial arts henchman in Venice is easily one of the best fights in the series (up there with the ones in From Russia With Love, Diamonds Are Forever, Live and Let Die, Octopussy, Skyfall and SPECTRE). You notice 5 of these were inside or on top of a train! The other 2 were in a museum and in a lift.

Moore's Bond is akin to Indiana Jones and Romancing the Stone. Swarzenegger is not generally thought of when it comes to comedy but he actually brought a lot of it into his films. He afterall made Twins as well as Kindergarten Cop. More serious roles like Commando, Raw Deal and Red Heat also had humour. Even in his most iconic film series, Terminator, there is humour and we all remember his catchphrase from the second of that series. Moore or even Connery could have said this. Dalton's Bond meanwhile was more serious than Moore's but remember near the end of The Living Daylights after getting rid of Necros, he says 'he got the boot' when Kara asked about him. Very Moore.

JP Liz V1

Idris getting a lot of support from other actors and directors

I think TayTo has killed any chance Hiddleston had

FunLover18

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Idris getting a lot of support from other actors and directors

I think TayTo has killed any chance Hiddleston had

Idris Elba is 43, they'd want to get a move on. I feel like the 'Black Bond' campaign (which I'm fine with btw) is now just the 'Elba for Bond' campaign. There are other black actors.

BorneTobyWilde

Next Bond should be a lady
The names Bond ,Jamie Bond . We need a female bond.

Decent Skin

I know I'm bucking the trend here but I thought Skyfall was dire. Didn't even bother going to see Spectre after that.

Bourne Trilogy (4th was dire) beats the pants off Bond these days, and Bond copying it was a gamble.

The trademark stuff were the gadgets, corny puns and stunning women; while the latter might be un-PC these days, the true Bond vibe died when Brosnan left; it's a credit to Craig that he got a good few in before Skyfall.

BuilderPlumber

Decent Skin wrote: »

I know I'm bucking the trend here but I thought Skyfall was dire. Didn't even bother going to see Spectre after that.

Bourne Trilogy (4th was dire) beats the pants off Bond these days, and Bond copying it was a gamble.

The trademark stuff were the gadgets, corny puns and stunning women; while the latter might be un-PC these days, the true Bond vibe died when Brosnan left; it's a credit to Craig that he got a good few in before Skyfall.

Personally I liked Skyfall a lot but in many ways it was very different to the films that went before it. Rather like On Her Majesty's Secret Service, most of the action happens at the start and end with the middle having less of it. However it is regarded as one of the best ever and I tend to agree.

What one sees Bond as depends on the first Bond actor or film they saw. The Bond with the trademark gadgets, puns, supercars, etc. (the women and action and supervillains were there right from the start) were not there at the very start. Dr No was a straight ahead detective story with Bond at the very end in ragged clothes relying on his 2 hands to defeat the villain and his terrorist plot. From Russia With Love largely saw a similar Bond often left to his own devices to defeat a range of enemies from Grant on the train to the helicopter and boats that chase him after that.

The trademark Bond began to develop in Goldfinger where more humour and more gadgets especially the supercar came into being. Thunderball was the first Bond to be written as a film script and Fleming's original novel shows this very much. You Only Live Twice was the early incarnation of films like The Spy Who Loved Me and Moonraker. All the elements of the typical Bond were coming together. On Her Majesty's Secret Service brought in more tongue in cheek humor to partly compensate for the fact Connery was replaced by Lazenby. Diamonds are Forever again with Connery combined Bond with Vegas gangster culture, Live and Let Die combined Bond with Shaft and may be the first Bond to openly borrow from another source. The Man With the Golden Gun was surprisingly low key and brought in elements of martial arts films. These 2 featured Moore but the true Moore style came about in The Spy Who Loved Me which was a revival of the big climatic You Only Live Twice type of film. Moonraker followed and Octopussy was similar. All these were fun and for me combined action with humor well. For Your Eyes Only and A View To a Kill sported less elaborate plots but essentially had the same elements that by now were expected. The Living Daylights was Dalton's first and played it safe with an Octopussy-style internal rivalry between Russians style plot. It kept a lot of the humor, stunts and action similar to the Moore films. Licence to Kill though was as different as one could get: a drug dealer revenge tale that was very violent. It was different but worked well and was underrated. Goldeneye and Tomorrow Never Dies were Brosnan's first 2 and featured a return to many of the elements of the typical Bonds like Connery's later ones, most of Moore's and Dalton's first. The World Is Not Enough was a first for Bond, in it being the first where he shoots a woman villain directly at close range (sure, Bond fired a rocket at a female villain in a helicopter in The Spy Who Loved Me and Brosnan himself had dispatched with a female villain in Goldeneye after she is flung through the air and hits a tree but The World Is Not Enough scene is a whole new thing). Die Another Day with its invisible car probably is what made the series think that things may have been taken too far. Casino Royale, Quantum of Solace both were inspired by both Bourne and the very early Bonds and Dalton's Bond too. With the current hatred (imo unfair) shown towards films like Moonraker, the minimalistic gadgetwise film seems to be more in vogue. Skyfall and SPECTRE may have attempted to bridge the gap between the new and typical Bond and who knows where things will go. Craig has done a great job in my opinion and he may be around for 2 more:

http://screenrant.com/daniel-craig-james-bond-movies-150-million/

philstar

lets throw the rule book out the window....

how about a gay Bond??

dinorebel

philstar wrote: »

lets throw the rule book out the window....

how about a gay Bond??

Agent 069?

Wanderer78

philstar wrote:

how about a gay Bond??

Ah be adventurous, transgender?

philstar

lets go the full hog...

how about gay transgender wheelchair bound and speaks with an oirish accent ?

that should keep everyone happy

CINCLANTFLT

philstar wrote: »

lets go the full hog...

how about gay transgender wheelchair bound and speaks with an oirish accent ?

that should keep everyone happy

Do what the alternative pilot for Archer did... dinosaur!!!

CINCLANTFLT

CINCLANTFLT wrote: »

Do what the alternative pilot for Archer did... dinosaur!!!

http://archer.wikia.com/wiki/Archersaurus

silverharp

Im surprised its still going, the original charm was the exotic locations, the cool villain's lair, the crazy technology and Bond as the ultimate ladies man. All the good stuff has been replicated in a hundred other movies. Also the cold war stuff gave it an extra edge as a backdrop.
Maybe get Feig to direct one with Melissa McCarty as Bond ?

JP Liz V1

silverharp wrote: »

Im surprised its still going, the original charm was the exotic locations, the cool villain's lair, the crazy technology and Bond as the ultimate ladies man. All the good stuff has been replicated in a hundred other movies. Also the cold war stuff gave it an extra edge as a backdrop.
Maybe get Feig to direct one with Melissa McCarty as Bond ?

Spy was enjoyable, one of Feig and McCarthy's better films

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2016/09/05/daniel-craig-offered-150-million-to-return-as-james-bond/

That is some moolah

Cork Boy 53

For me my favourite Bond actors from best to worst are Connery Craig Dalton Brosnan Lazenby and Moore.
I think the franchise should stay with the tone and style of CR and QOS, although I suppose that will depend on who replaces Craig if he does decide to quit the role now.

BuilderPlumber

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

For me my favourite Bond actors from best to worst are Connery Craig Dalton Brosnan Lazenby and Moore.
I think the franchise should stay with the tone and style of CR and QOS, although I suppose that will depend on who replaces Craig if he does decide to quit the role now.

From recent articles, the makers of Bond want Craig preferably and for 2 more. It is to be assumed Blofeld and SPECTRE would also feature. Things could slide into a repeat of stories from On Her Majesty's Secret Service (OHMSS), Diamonds Are Forever (DAF) and the book version of You Only Live Twice (YOLT). We have seen some of this already:

OHMSS: Tracy, the depressed daughter of a Blofeld rival, meets Bond and is not a fan of him at first. Her father, Draco gives Bond information on Blofeld on the condition Bond looks after, helps and marries Tracy. Tracy falls in love with Bond and Bond with her and they get married. It is implied Bond leaves the secret service.

SPECTRE: Mr White, an ex ally of Blofeld has changed sides because of Blofeld's bloodthirsty ways and is dying from a poison Blofeld's henchman delivered in revenge. Bond meets him and he tells Bond to meet and look after his daughter Madeleine who can help him defeat Blofeld. Madeleine like Tracy at first is not impressed by Bond but by the end, both are very much in love and it is implied Bond and her drive off after Bond quits the secret service.

OHMSS saw Blofeld and his girlfriend (who fires the shots) tracking down Bond and Tracy and shooting at their car. Tracy is killed and Bond is unhurt. In a climax more typical of a Love/Hate season finale, Bond is left with his dead wife in his arms.

Could this be what is planned for Craig's next or next 2 films? If so, we have a repeat of the OHMSS ending and then obviously Bond tracking down various people who have information about Blofeld. Perhaps, the pretitle of the next = the end of OHMSS + the pretitle of DAF. That is, Bond gets married and then his wife is killed and then we see Bond roughing up a few contacts and then perhaps confronting Blofeld. After that, then anything is possible: a DAF style plot where Bond thinks he has killed Blofeld and then he surfaces again after Bond thinks he is dealing with another enemy? A fight to the death between Blofeld and Bond in Japan akin to the YOLT book could be tacked on at the end.

Because of the Madeleine dimension, that is most likely what is in their heads. If Bond 25 is going to be a OHMSS/DAF/YOLT remake, then that could prompt other such remakes and reimaginations of older Bonds. A new Moonraker? A story featuring Dr No, Goldfinger, Grant or Largo?

With all the source material though the one not used is Fleming's The Spy Who Loved Me (the film is in no way based on the story of this book). This would be of course the most different Bond of all. Bond by chance getting involved in another person's personal issues and helping them. It is more the basis of Mad Max and Westerns, indeed Lee Child's books and it could work. It is the only full set of Fleming material not used in any way (as far as I know the From A View To A Kill short story though not used in the film of the same name was used in Thunderball).

Sleepy

TonyCliftonEsq wrote: »

Fasdbender said he has some great ideas for Bond and wants to talk to Barbara Broccoli.

Something about Bond as a Navy officer before he becomes 007

This. The absolute highlight of Brosnan's post-Goldeneye Bond movies was his farewell to Desmond LLewelyn's Q in The World is Not Enough:

Q: "I've always tried to teach you two things: First, never let them see you bleed."
Bond: "And second?"
Q: "Always have an escape plan." – before he is lowered out of view.

I'm a sucker for an origin story and it amazes me that Bond's has never been done:

Show the miserable orphan being bullied during his time at Eton, the school master who spots his potential and encourages him to join the Combined Cadet Force after Bond shows some tenacity in a three on one fight - not winning, but inflicting enough damage on the other three boys that it makes his hiding look like a victory.

Queue a montage that sees a scrawny young boy turn into a well built young man that the avuncular master introduces to a man introduced as "Quartermaster Llewelyn" (obligatory nod) who suggests the young Bond would make a fine naval officer... show some of his early naval days before flashing forward to a mid/late twenties Commander Bond causing a diplomatic scandal through some dramatic heroism that results in him being escorted to the brig on his return to England to await Court Martial. As the young Commander Bond broods, Quartermaster Llewelyn re-appears on the other side of the cell's bars to offer him another way out... and queue the music.

Wedwood

I dont see Fassbender as a good Bond. Same goes for Hiddleston. Both are slightly effeminate and neither look like they could fight their way out of a paper bag.

Bond is supposed to be a hard bitten, hard drinking chain smoking, womaniser, who can wear a tuxedo but kick the crap out of the baddies.

Not some post macho wimp who's trying to get in touch with his 'inner self'.

FunLover18

Wedwood wrote:

I dont see Fassbender as a good Bond. Same goes for Hiddleston. Both are slightly effeminate and neither look like they could fight their way out of a paper bag.

Have you seen X-Men First Class? Fassbender would make a great Bond. Have you seen 300, nothing effeminate about him.

BuilderPlumber

Fassbender or Hiddleson as Bond could certainly work but would be very different probably to what we have become used to with Daniel Craig. Whatever way Craig is a hard act to follow and if the makers of Bond have their way Craig will be back for at least one and preferably two more at least. What happens in the end is really based on what Craig's final decision will be. The makers know that Craig saved the Bond franchise and took it to new places.

Experiments and attempts to move from the norm have been tried many times and some worked out better than others. Some Bond films emphasised more gun play and others tried to diversify the action away from just one shootout after another. Skyfall then largely dispensed with chases once the pretitle was done with. Here are some specific films that were brave enough to experiment and met with mixed results:

Goldfinger: the first film not in the film anyway link the villain, the title character, with the SPECTRE organisation. One could assume he was linked to it since both Goldfinger and SPECTRE relied on hardline Chinese and North Korean elements out to destroy the economies of the West and USSR. But it is never mentioned and the film worked out not only very well but also is considered to be one of the very best.

You Only Live Twice: the first film to deviate from Fleming's books. Fleming's revenge thriller is turned into a film that features a pre-married Bond yet to meet Tracy and it takes as much from Goldfinger and Thunderball as it does from Fleming's You Only Live Twice. The end result with the start a major war plot worked out well and was copied twice in a Moore film and a Brosnan film later.

On Her Majesty's Secret Service: Bond was Connery and Connery was the only actor to play Bond until now. OHMSS plays it safe storywise by sticking very closely to Fleming's book, had all the usual shootouts and chases we came to expect but it is included here as experimental because Lazenby is Bond and he was brave to follow Connery. Lazenby left on bad terms, he was panned by many BUT it was inevitable that the second actor to play Bond would get this treatment. The sad ending was different to any other film so far in the series but it was 100% a Fleming idea and how he ended the book. There was talk the series would end after this and this film was dismissed for years. Now, it is rightly considered one of the better Bonds and influential on Craig's films' tragic moments like Vesper's death and M's death.

Diamonds Are Forever: This was experimental because Connery came back but also because we see Bond get his revenge and kill Blofeld and then take on a new enemy who turns out to be Blofeld hiding behind a new identity. This is the first film where we are unaware of who we're dealing with until Bond makes the revelation. This idea would be copied around 4 more times. Connery's return worked and meant the series would last for another while. Like, YOLT this was a mix of about 50% Fleming and 50% additional material.

Live and Let Die: A new Bond in Moore, a Blaxploitation influence, a drugs rather than world domination plot and echoes of Dr No come into this very Africanised Bond film with voodooism and third world dictators. Typical of Bonds of its time, it is a mix of Fleming and non-Fleming ideas. The uncertain identity of villains (the early assumption there are 2 main villains, Mr Big and Dr Kananga) takes the DAF idea and twists it around a little to reveal New York/New Orleans drug dealer Mr Big is really San Monique drug dealer and dictator Dr Kananga. We see Bond shooting and fighting henchmen and literally blowing up Kananga and then fighting Tee Hee on a train at the end rather than the by then customary situation of 2 armies shooting it out (think SPECTRE/Blofeld versus Bond helped by Willard White, Draco, Tiger Tanaka, etc.).

The Man With The Golden Gun: this film has gotten poor reviews and rankings but it is better than many remember. It was experimental as most of these films of this time were. We must remember this was only the third non-Connery film and also the third non-SPECTRE/Blofeld Bond and after playing it relatively safe with LALD, they did not really know what to do to give Moore his own style yet (that would come in the next film The Spy Who Loved Me). Some good fights and a surprisingly good martial arts fight scene are let done by a poor climax which seemed to be borrowed from Dr No but done wrong. The final fight with a midget hardly would compensate for but seemed to be based on the previous film's fight with the hooked Tee Hee.

The Spy Who Loved Me: This more or less was it. The template for all the other films. The pretitle was the best yet arguably and this film seemed to be the first to regard it as a major highlight. The return to the big climatic shootout in the villain's lair makes its return and was not seen since the oilrig climax of DAF. The plot is similar to those Blofeld era films and YOLT in particular. If TMWTGG was unsure and suffered from a poor climax, this film most certainly didn't and cemented Moore as Bond.

Moonraker: Of course, this was very similar to TSWLM but with the space theme added in. Many wrongly assume this is the first Bond film to have a space theme. People tend to forget DAF and YOLT and even Dr No. It was however the first to have Bond himself in space and the climatic shootout between the good and bad armies in space. It was like a space version of Thunderball's underwater climax in many ways. Of course, it was inspired by Star Wars and of course it has been hated by many ever since but it is good and it worked and it sold.

For Your Eyes Only: If TMWTGG raised doubts to whether Moore could find his own niche, TSWLM and Moonraker saw him make Bond his own and financially successfully as well. FYEO saw Moore return to a simplier plot akin to TMWTGG but it was much more confident and surefooted. This was a good solid film that added a bit of mystery based as to whether which of the characters Colombo and Kristatos was the villain and the Bond ally. It was based on Fleming short stories and was the most faithful to Fleming material in years.

Licence To Kill: Dalton's first film The Living Daylights played it safe using many of the Moore elements introduced in TSWLM and established in films like Octopussy. The bad v good USSR people was straight from Octopussy and the mix of humour and action was pure Moore too. But no one who had seen any of the previous Bonds were quite prepared for LTK. From the start, we see a vicious woman beating drug dealer who violently kills people he thinks betrayed him. We see Bond's friend savaged by a shark at the hands of the drug dealer and Bond's friend's wife killed. Bond leaves the secret service and goes into action to seek revenge against the drug dealer. Though there is a terrorist plot where the drug dealer will shoot down planes unless the DEA turn a blind eye to him and his activities, it is mainly a revenge film and very violent. It did poorly at the box office but was up against Batman and other massive films of the time. It is now being recognised for the classic it was and it is everything that the 2006 film version of Miami Vice should have been but was not.

Die Another Day: Brosnan played it safe in his first and excellent Goldeneye where the DAF enemy who Bond thought was dead is not dead plot was used and all the usual action was emphasised. His second film revived to old YOLT and TSWLM elements. The World is Not Enough was also standard Bond elements. BUT Die Another Day took things to a new level. Plotwise, it is nothing but a complete DAF remake with a diamond controlled weapon of mass destruction and the enemy being someone Bond thought was dead hiding behind another persona. Throw in a little bit of the Octopussy and TLD hardliner v moderate internal regime struggles but placed in a Far Eastern country, presumably (a breakaway part of) North Korea. BUT it is the use of an invisible car that really makes this film a lot different. Anyone who thought Bond in space in Moonraker was OTT think again! This probably is why we have Craig. Though DAD is not a bad film and after rewatching it recently 2 times, it is quite good and the pretitle is awesome, this invisible car scene took away from it.

Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace: For many reasons, these were experiments. Reboot, Bond's first mission, the first time 2 films in the series were direct sequels. CR was widely loved, QOS less so. Both in my view are good and made way for the mature and trusted agent we see in the more mainstream Skyfall.

SPECTRE: finally, the last experiment to date. Bring back Blofeld but give him another makeover. SPECTRE like DAD and to a lesser extent TMWTGG is flawed but yet is good. Giving Blofeld a different identity and purpose was a poor idea. By now, the enemy who Bond thought was dead but in reality wasn't under a different name was being overused. Besides, Blofeld himself did this far more convincingly in DAF. SPECTRE seemed to deliberately end like at a midpoint stage in other Bonds and we have to wait and see what is planned next.

Despite all the above experiments, Bond has survived and while some of the films did better and/or are remembered better than others, there has not been a film that has fatally sunk the series yet. Every Bond film had enough good in it to keep people interested and it really boiled down to which Bond film really was bold enough to try something different that worked. Goldfinger and Casino Royale are two obvious examples of Bond films that went for something that bit different that worked. Moonraker did too but has not been remembered. At the time, it was much more loved and respected than it is now. But which generation is right? Goldfinger talks to all audiences because the pretitle action teaser, the classic theme song, the world domination plot, the car chases, the classic fight with a classic henchman and the classic final shootout climax are ALL what one expects from a Bond film. Casino Royale talked to modern audiences that were familiar with films like the Jason Bourne ones. But Moonraker was ideal for an audience in the late 1970s who loved BOTH TSWLM Bond film and Star Wars. And I'm sure there were plenty of these around.

tigger123

Tom Hardy?

Wheety

I was going to mention Tom Hardy but he'd need elocution lessons first, going by his last few movies

A popular move in Hollywood is the origin stories. Would anyone like to see a young James Bond as a recruit?

FunLover18

Wheety wrote:

A popular move in Hollywood is the origin stories. Would anyone like to see a young James Bond as a recruit?

I definitely wouldn't. Kind of tired of origins and miss the days when we just had an established characters. I doubt anyone watched Dr No and said 'I want to know how this guy started off'. The art of establishing a new character through actions and dialogue needs a renaissance.

Sleepy

Wheety wrote: »

I was going to mention Tom Hardy but he'd need elocution lessons first, going by his last few movies

A popular move in Hollywood is the origin stories. Would anyone like to see a young James Bond as a recruit?

Read back 5 posts!

bazza1

I am available.....just saying!

BuilderPlumber

tigger123 wrote: »

Tom Hardy?

I think Tom Hardy would make a great Bond. He would be the ideal man to continue the Craig approach. Traditionally Eon have not hired very well established film actors however and have normally picked TV actors and sometimes unknowns.

sabat

A bit of a leftfield suggestion here but what about the singer Derek Ryan? It'd be great to have an Irishman back in the role and this guy's got charisma and talent to burn, plus he looks great in a tux as you can see here:

CalamariFritti

I guess thats that sorted so.

FunLover18

I saw Girl On A Train last night and I thought 'Luke Evans would be a great Bond!'

Wedwood

Here's Ian Fleming's own view on how the movie version of Bond should be played:

Ian Fleming had a vision for the Bond films that was a far cry from the movies we see made today. In fact, when the films were first being made he gave Cubby Broccoli a memorandum with his ideas on what the movies should be like. Below are some highlights.

Ian Fleming "Atmosphere: To my mind, the greatest danger in this series is too much stage Englishness. There should, I think, be no monocles, moustaches, bowler hats or bobbies or other "Limey" gimmicks. There should be no blatant English slang, a minimum of public school ties and accents, and subsidiary characters should, generally speaking, speak with a Scots or Irish accent."

"The Secret Service should be presented as a tough, modern organization in which men may dress more casually than they do in the FBI. Above all they should not slap each other on the back or call each other "old boy."

"James Bond: James Bond is a blunt instrument wielded by a Government Department. He is quiet, hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic. In his relationships with women he shows the same qualities as he does in his job, but he has a certain gentleness with them and if they get into trouble he is sometimes prepared to sacrifice his life to rescue them. But not always, and certainly not if it interferes with his job. He likes gambling, golf, and fast motor cars."

"Neither Bond nor his Chief, M, should initially endear themselves to the audience. They are tough, uncompromising men and so are the people who work for and with them."

Fleming writes: (regarding the building where the HQ of the British Secret Service is located)

"The list of other occupants of the building is innocuous: Universal Export, Central Radio Communications and so forth."

"Bonds' secretary, formerly of the WRNS, should be attractive, sexy, but extremely efficient and rather severe. She would obviously look much prettier away from the office. She is inclined to mother Bond - brushes his coat and so forth."

"They [Bond and his secretary] have a friendly, businesslike relationship with occasional sparks of flirtation from Bond. The relationship...is rather similar to that between Perry Mason and Della Street."

"Bond's office, looking out over a park, should contain a number of office gadgets, such as a twenty-four-hour clock, Phonodeck, oddments like a shell-base for an ashtray, a shrapnel fragment as a paper-weight, three telephones, two black and one white - the latter direct with M and his Chief of Staff."

Fleming also said that M should wear a dark blue bowtie with white spots.

beauf

I liked the Moore films. But they were good only in the context of when they were made. That humour is too dated now and the modern audience are used to more complex movies.

I think the Craig movies got it right. I'd like more tech in it though.

BuilderPlumber

beauf wrote: »

I liked the Moore films. But they were good only in the context of when they were made. That humour is too dated now and the modern audience are used to more complex movies.

I think the Craig movies got it right. I'd like more tech in it though.

I feel there has been a tendency to underrate the Moore films. I feel that they were made at a time of great change in the franchise too and it took him a few films to find his style.

Moore joined the franchise 8 films in. Of the previous 7, Connery was Bond in 6 of them and SPECTRE/Blofeld was the enemy in at least 6 of them (Goldfinger was never mentioned to be a member but he may well have been and wears what looked like a SPECTRE ring). Moore came in at a time when other enemies were to be introduced.

Moore's first film Live And Let Die decided to play it safe and it was decided the film would start off without him in the pretitle. There was less emphasis on 2 big armies going into battle and Bond takes on the villains alone in their layer, underneath a voodoo ceremony. Gone too was the world domination plot and in its place was a drug dealer plot. Generally, it was not an overly humorous film and the humor was mostly consigned to the part of the JW Pepper character (who was a variant of a similar sheriff character from Connery's Diamonds Are Forever, the preceding film) during the boat chase. Overall this was a solid film and explored different aspects to the norm that were necessary and a given in the Blofeld and SPECTRE films.

His second outing The Man With The Golden Gun started off without Bond in the pretitle as in his first. It actually remains the last film to date not to feature Bond in the pretitle. The first hour or so of the film is awesome but the second hour or so lets things down. A major flaw is repetition of material from previous films. The car chase near the end featuring JW Pepper again and is the third film in a row to have this character or a similar one (in Diamonds Are Forever, he is not Pepper but he is a very similar sheriff) involved in a chase. As with Live And Let Die this chase is featured just prior to the climax and clearly it is using the template of this film. The pretitle and climax are really reworkings of the From Russia With Love pretitle. The rest of the climax is clearly modelled on Dr No. The climax features less action than usual and lets down what was a great film in its first half where we had a great fight in Beirut and a surprisingly violent martial arts fight scene.

The Spy Who Loved Me was where Moore found his style. This film set a template that would be continued well in to the 1980s and into Dalton's era. The minister and General Gogol are introduced. Originally meant to feature Blofeld, we get a similar guy wanting world domination from under the sea. While a whole lot of it is You Only Live Twice updated with some Thunderball, Diamonds Are Forever and On Her Majesty's Secret Service thrown in, it was massively entertaining and introduced Jaws, one of the top 3 henchmen along with Oddjob and Tee Hee. The film set the tone and was a major success in every way. It also introduced the prettitle as a major stunt highlight and was the first to feature Bond since Diamonds Are Forever. It is also the first since that film to have a major climatic shootout.

Moonraker is a film that gets a lot of bad press and unfairly. I think it does everything it is supposed to right and combined Bond and space elements well. The film is often criticised for its space setting and is unfairly dismissed as Bond's Star Wars. In reality space themes were present in You Only Live Twice and Diamonds Are Forever too but both ended with a conventional shootout at the villain's lair on land and on an oilrig respectively with conventional weapons. Moonraker's final shootout was with ray guns. Personally, I though it was a good climax and it was very well done. It reminded me of Thunderball's underwater climax. The chases are above average too and the fight between Bond and the Japanese henchman in Venice is one of the best ever. Drax makes a good villain and more vicious than usual but still sophisticated too.

By the time Moore made For Your Eyes Only, the series was almost 20 years old. There were plans to reintroduce Blofeld, last seen in Diamonds Are Forever, but legal disputes blocked this. Yet we have a pretitle sequence where Bond visits his wife's grave and gets captured by Blofeld in a remote control helicopter. Bond gains control again of it and dumps Blofeld down a chimney. This most likely came from source material featuring Blofeld as the main enemy. For Your Eyes Only does not turn into a Bond v SPECTRE affair and after the pretitle, we have Bond dealing with Greek criminals and dodgy KGB operatives. There is a whole On Her Majesty's Secret Service subtheme throughout with a contessa who gets killed, a Draco-like Bond ally, ski chases/shootouts, Bond visiting Tracy's grave, etc.

Moore second last film is one of the most underrated Bond films ever. Like Moonraker, it has everything that The Spy Who Loved Me had but yet is poorly rated. For me I think Octopussy is excellent and is the perfect thaw in the cold war era film. Kamal Khan may be a bit too sophisticated to be one of the Taliban but who cares. This Afghan warlord does not see any place for him in either the then communist government of Afghanistan or the official rebels and teams up with a dissident Soviet general who plans to take over the USSR and presumably give Khan Afghanistan. The film also hones in on nuclear disarmament talks and is politically more realistic than usual. Great action and memorable henchmen make this one of the most overlooked gems in the series. A good pretitle, climax, fights and shootouts and a good plot all the way. If Moore had done this earlier, it would be recognised more for the good film it actually is.

By the time Moore ended his tenure with A View To A Kill, he did look too old for the role and looked a lot older than in his previous film. This film is often ranked as the worst of the lot and even Moore himself is one who shares this view. He has never said anything positive about it and it is the one film of his that he will always say he did not appreciate making. I remember watching this for the first time some years ago aware of its reputation. This is actually quite a good film and underrated even if a whole lot of it seems to meander into Goldfinger updated territories. Moore plays Bond well. The pretitle is awesome. Zorin steals the show and is a very demented villain. Scenes like him machine gunning down unarmed men at the end of the film and laughing while he does so takes Bond villain personas to a new low. Mayday is almost like a female Jaws, changing in the end to the good side. The climax on the Golden Gate bridge is very entertaining.

Moore's 7 films along with its immediate predecessors You Only Live Twice, On Her Majesty's Secret Service and Diamonds Are Forever bridged the gap between the older Bond and the modern Bond. By A View To A Kill there was very little of Fleming's character left and certain Bondisms created in the films were cemented. Of course most of these films diverted severely from the original books but probably needed to.

If some of Fleming's books were followed religiously, they would be out of kilter with the times. Fleming's Moonraker for example would have been written at a time when space travel was not very advanced and when men were yet to be in space. By 1979 when the film came out, Fleming's ideas were used and updated. Fleming's Bond was a 1950s-1960s man whereas the films spanned the 1960s to today. Changes in culture, technology, world powers, etc. all had to come into them and reflect the realities.

Craig's Bond has been perfect for today's era. Moore's Bond was perfect for his era. While we sometimes look back at older Bond films and compare them with today's Bond films, this is pointless as we are comparing very different eras. One thing though that helped the series to survive and be respected is that it shunned any controversial topics. No story featuring trouble in countries or region like Vietnam, Northern Ireland, the Middle East, etc. that would divide audiences were used. Good Russians were always used to counter bad Russians who always were working against Russian interests too. The Afghan war featured in The Living Daylights but it was stressed that this was not an anti USSR propaganda film by having Bond and the good Russian Pushkin both against the bad Russian Koskov. Film series that took a more biased view of things like the Rambo sequels suffered for it of course.

beauf

I think I said moore or less the same thing, only shorter. I grew up with the moore bonds, had the toys etc. Its like someone watching Star Wars for the first time now out of context. Will have no idea of the impact it had. Similarly the moore movies were perfect at their time. It was a big deal when they were in the cinema or on the TV for the first time usually at Xmas. Movies these days don't have the same impact.

BorneTobyWilde

We need the first female bond .
Jamie Bond
That would be cool.

BuilderPlumber

beauf wrote: »

I think I said moore or less the same thing, only shorter. I grew up with the moore bonds, had the toys etc. Its like someone watching Star Wars for the first time now out of context. Will have no idea of the impact it had. Similarly the moore movies were perfect at their time. It was a big deal when they were in the cinema or on the TV for the first time usually at Xmas. Movies these days don't have the same impact.

That was true about back then. Octopussy, Moonraker and The Spy Who Loved Me were all popular Christmas films I recall. Bond films were also on bank holidays throughout the year as well and I remember specifically watching Diamonds Are Forever, Never Say Never Again, For Your Eyes Only and Live and Let Die for the first time on bank holidays. The Indiana Jones films served a similar purpose.

While still major events in the cinema, films like Bond are not as major events on TV anymore. Next Christmas (meaning 2017), 2015 blockbusters like the latest Bond film SPECTRE along with the new Mad Max and Star Wars films will no doubt be on Christmas Day/Eve, etc. but people will have seen them on DVD/BleRay/etc.

BuilderPlumber

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

We need the first female bond .
Jamie Bond
That would be cool.

I think a series with a female Bond-like agent could be good. They almost did that with Halle Berry back in the 2000s. Female cop and martial arts films came into being so who knows? I think keeping James Bond separate would be the wisest idea and coming up with a new character.

BuilderPlumber

Wedwood wrote: »

Here's Ian Fleming's own view on how the movie version of Bond should be played:

Ian Fleming had a vision for the Bond films that was a far cry from the movies we see made today. In fact, when the films were first being made he gave Cubby Broccoli a memorandum with his ideas on what the movies should be like. Below are some highlights.

Ian Fleming "Atmosphere: To my mind, the greatest danger in this series is too much stage Englishness. There should, I think, be no monocles, moustaches, bowler hats or bobbies or other "Limey" gimmicks. There should be no blatant English slang, a minimum of public school ties and accents, and subsidiary characters should, generally speaking, speak with a Scots or Irish accent."

"The Secret Service should be presented as a tough, modern organization in which men may dress more casually than they do in the FBI. Above all they should not slap each other on the back or call each other "old boy."

"James Bond: James Bond is a blunt instrument wielded by a Government Department. He is quiet, hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic. In his relationships with women he shows the same qualities as he does in his job, but he has a certain gentleness with them and if they get into trouble he is sometimes prepared to sacrifice his life to rescue them. But not always, and certainly not if it interferes with his job. He likes gambling, golf, and fast motor cars."

"Neither Bond nor his Chief, M, should initially endear themselves to the audience. They are tough, uncompromising men and so are the people who work for and with them."

Fleming writes: (regarding the building where the HQ of the British Secret Service is located)

"The list of other occupants of the building is innocuous: Universal Export, Central Radio Communications and so forth."

"Bonds' secretary, formerly of the WRNS, should be attractive, sexy, but extremely efficient and rather severe. She would obviously look much prettier away from the office. She is inclined to mother Bond - brushes his coat and so forth."

"They [Bond and his secretary] have a friendly, businesslike relationship with occasional sparks of flirtation from Bond. The relationship...is rather similar to that between Perry Mason and Della Street."

"Bond's office, looking out over a park, should contain a number of office gadgets, such as a twenty-four-hour clock, Phonodeck, oddments like a shell-base for an ashtray, a shrapnel fragment as a paper-weight, three telephones, two black and one white - the latter direct with M and his Chief of Staff."

Fleming also said that M should wear a dark blue bowtie with white spots.

The Bond character and films have evolved a lot over the years. Early Connery, as well as Dalton and the first 2 films of Craig probably stay closest to the Fleming style Bond and so do these films. The first 4 films along with OHMSS stay close to the Fleming novels.

I feel as the series went on, it became more linked to what audiences were seeing in other similar films and TV series than Fleming's original source material. Elements of US gangster films were seen creeping in as early as Diamonds are Forever and Shaft greatly influenced Live and Let Die. Martial arts films were part of the inspiration behind The Man With The Golden Gun and space films inspired Moonraker. From there one could see Indiana Jones inspired some parts of Octopussy and you can see in many of the Dalton, Brosnan and Craig films elements of everything from Rambo to Miami Vice to Mad Max to The Bourne Identity being taken into account.

Of course the films needed to be updated from Fleming's 1950s and 1960s sources if they were to be viable 1970s and 1980s action films. Space travel, technology and cars became much more advanced since the time of Fleming. The Bond films never confined themselves to a 1960s setting so had to evolve with the times.

The major difference between the Fleming Bond and the film Bond was the latter was much more humorous and this aspect of Bond contrary to popular belief was introduced as early as Goldfinger. It was very much used by Lazenby to ease audiences into he being Bond and was continued by Moore, Brosnan and even Dalton and Craig.

The settings of the books and films changed too. I remember a lot of the books were set in Jamaica (Dr No, Live and Let Die, The Man With The Golden Gun) while the films changed that around a lot. Some obvious countries Bond has yet to be in (in the films anyway) are Australia, Canada, Iran, Iraq, Syria, New Zealand, South Africa, other parts of sub Saharan Africa, indeed Ireland. I know some of these would be controversial but others are rather obvious one would think. I think one of the Bond films may have been partly filmed in Canada but not set there?

Eddy_Phelan

I would rather see that dashing chap Edward Phelan given a go! ;)

Brief_Lives

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-37848263

Michael Fassbender has ruled himself out of becoming the next James Bond.

The German-Irish actor had been tipped as one of the favourites to take over the role from Daniel Craig.
But when he was asked in an interview with GQ magazine if he would be up for the part, he said: "To be honest, no."
He said he thought the franchise needed a shake-up, suggesting a younger Bond played by someone like Unbroken star Jack O'Connell. He also said a woman could take on the role.

...
...

BuilderPlumber

Brief_Lives wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-37848263

Michael Fassbender has ruled himself out of becoming the next James Bond.

The German-Irish actor had been tipped as one of the favourites to take over the role from Daniel Craig.
But when he was asked in an interview with GQ magazine if he would be up for the part, he said: "To be honest, no."
He said he thought the franchise needed a shake-up, suggesting a younger Bond played by someone like Unbroken star Jack O'Connell. He also said a woman could take on the role.

...
...

I think that the series has to retain a lot of its traditional elements and that broadening it out to alter the Bond character in radical ways could do a lot of harm. So far the character has been played in a serious and humorous way and the films ranged from realistic to invisible cars. All along the fundamental aspects of the Bond character remained intact.

If Bond was radically altered to be gay, a woman, transgender, etc., it would alienate probably near 100% of the followers. By all means, a Bond-style film or a Bond spinoff featuring an agent like that would of course work. A black Bond on the other hand could work with the right actor (Eddie Murphy would have done a good Bond in the 1980s or 1990s and Idris Elba would be perfect now) and a good script.

For now it looks most likely that Craig will do at least one more. There is no doubting he is popular, profitable and has appeared in some of the best of the Bond films. The makers of the films want things to remain like this. I'd like to see Craig do a film like Octopussy or The Living Daylights where real world events are blended into the film in a way that is not biased.