Advice on buying a country property

Francisco64

Hi All,
First post here and apologies if this has already been covered somewhere already but I've tried searching the board with no luck.
My wife and I are considering a move out of Dublin roughly 60 miles to Cavan or Westmeath areas. We're looking for a country house on a couple of acres.
I'm looking for advice regarding the well and septic tanks which a lot of country properties have:
Would a building surveyor/engineer checking a country property normally check the operation of the well and its pump? Is there any way of checking if its run dry in the past or if there is contamination issues?
Would the water normally be tested as part of the survey or would that something you'd get done separately or at all even??
Finally I know septic tanks have to be registered and are subject to Council inspection but would a building surveyor do that as well or again is that another separate check?
Thanks in advance for any help,
Frank

L1011

You would need (and can get) specialists to check the well, water quality and septic tank - a normal surveyor would not give the depth of detail you want.

Metric Tensor

Most of those checks can be done but are rarely done unless you specifically arrange it. It will cost you quite a bit more than the usual survey a house purchaser would undertake.

With regards to the well running dry - this would be almost impossible to check unless you have the house picked and we get a really dry summer over the next few months. You may possibly be able to arrange a pump out test on the well which would give you some idea of the recharge rate but again that would be expensive and challenging - you wouldn't be going around to 10 different houses in Cavan doing it - but if you had agreed a purchase or were very interested the vendor might facilitate it.

Francisco64

Okay. So it's not something that would typically be done but if I want "to be sure to be sure" I can get other specialists to check.
Thanks, Guys.

Its far more likely the house will be connected to a group water scheme rather than have its own well so I wouldn't worry too much about that side of things.

Francisco64

Thanks Teresa Eager Trapeze. A group scheme would be good but the couple we'd like to view are listed as using wells. We might be going a bit too far off the beaten track!

Speedwell

Don't forget about Internet access. (Says the work-from-home IT professional.)

Francisco64

Speedwell: funny you should say that. Broadband is the first dealbreaker on any property as my wife works from home now which is why we are contemplating the move in the first place. We've efibre at the moment in Dublin but even the quality of that varies (supposedly up to 100mbps...) We're looking into getting by on less speed.

MarkAnthony

Fixed lines from Eir, which will be your only option out in the sticks, always depends on the length on the cable from your home to the exchange. 100Mbit is only if you're cabled into the modem internally AND sitting on top of the telephone exchange.

It's likely you'd need to consider satellite or 3/4G or a local scheme. You can expect a maximum of about 10Mbits - which for most people is more than enough.

Francisco64

MarkAnthony: thanks for that. Eir are not very clear about that on their website re the roll out. My wife uses Skype and multiple web based apps. Friends who live in the country tend to prefer Vodafones 24mbps service but I don't think they'd be heavy users anyway or if that'd be sufficient for my wifes needs. Basically we don't know how consistent the quality is for work purposes. We'd go with satellite if that's work for sure but there seems to be issues with that too.
I'm seeing "efibre available in 6 weeks come up" in some areas but i don't know if that's the standard answer.

MarkAnthony

Bear in mind the 24 Mbps service is just ADSL (with fibre being VDSL) all DSL services come from Eir - Vodafone, Sky et al just resell them. Generally rural exchanges are still on the 7Mbit services. Again 24Mbit and 7Mbit is the max assuming you're on top of the telephone exchange.

Francisco64

So a 4G or local service would perhaps be a better option?

MarkAnthony

Francisco64 wrote: »

So a 4G or local service would perhaps be a better option?

It really depends on the property. Ireland has some of the fastest broadband service in the world - believe it or believe it not - I think we rank something like number 6. We're something like number 66 for coverage though.

Don't rely on anything but hard data when looking at your broadband options. The vast majority of country properties have very poor connections.

Francisco64

Yes, I did see that figure recently which surprised me but as you say coverage is the issue. it's looking like we may well be confined to properties which have an efibre enabled or guaranteed to soon be efibre enabled line.

MarkAnthony

Again bear in mind that efibre only comes to an area - there are loads of reasons why a particular house might not be able to avail of it. I've literally had one address out of 100 on an estate of terraced and semi detached houses not be able to get it.

Good to see broadband becoming more of an issue in home buying - it's the only way significant action will be taken on it.

Francisco64

Really? Certainly going to have to nail it down so.

Indeed it should be a huge issue. it'd allow people to work from home in the country or improve/expand existing businesses. It'd help a bit with housing anyway. I recently was on the phone to an estate agent and told her how to check the landline no for efibre. If it exists I'd be putting it in a house advert now as a matter of course.

Metric Tensor

Went through this last year OP. The only way to do it is get the land-line number for the house and get eir to check it for you.

To be honest I'd suggest you have very little chance of getting anything decent at the level of isolation you are talking about. To get decent VDSL (marketed as efibre) you have to be within about 1km of the exchange or local cabinet. In the countryside that's not very far! And also that only counts if the exchange is enabled for VDSL which many aren't. The next step down us ADSL2+ and that tops out at 24MB/s downloads but again decreases rapidly as you move away from the exchange.

Check the line in the house. It's the only way. Many vendors were happy for me to bring my laptop and test their existing connection. Under no circumstances rely on an eir promise that anything is coming soon. Even if it comes it might not come to your house.

Look in to Fixed Wireless providers. It's not ideal and it's more expensive and it might not be fast enough (or jitter free enough) for your wife's needs but depending on location it might be the best you can get.

4G coverage is patchy at best and the download limits can be challenging for heavy users. But again worth looking into/testing.

Metric Tensor

To add: From my own perspective:

1. The jitter evident in VOIP calls
2. The limited upload speeds on the asynchronous packages
3. The monthly download limits

Were more of issue than the headline download rate (up to 100, up to 24, etc etc).

loveisdivine

Would ADSL be sufficient for things like Netflix and occasionally downloading of programmes? We're also looking at a house that doesn't currently have access to fibre.

Francisco64

Metric Tensor: thanks for sharing your own experiences. I'll have to restrict myself to houses with existing landlines that can be checked. Can I just ask: the vendors let you check speeds on their existing broadband packages so if they say only had max 8mbps you might only get a wobbly 2/3 mbps?

Metric Tensor

Correct Francisco - and then proceed to strike that house off the list unless there is some other suitable alternative (e.g. fixed wireless).

We had to rule out a lot of very nice houses because my job is dependant on a certain quality of connection.

It would be very beneficial for you and your wife to visit various friends houses that have different qualities of broadband and run lots of tests to determine exactly what level she needs for what she does. Like I said above - I found for my needs the headline speed wasn't the issue - it was the "robustness" of the connection.

Metric Tensor

loveisdivine wrote: »

Would ADSL be sufficient for things like Netflix and occasionally downloading of programmes? We're also looking at a house that doesn't currently have access to fibre.

Depends on the speed!

If you have ADSL and you are getting a download speed of 5 to 6 that is well above the minimum of 2 recommended by netflix.

However if you are on an ADSL connection and you're 8 miles away from the exchange getting a speed of 1 you might be in trouble!

arctictree

Whatever about broadband, make sure the house has a good mobile signal. A house near me could not sell for years because it was in a reception black spot - literally no reception on the mobile. It sold eventually, probably to someone who forgot to check!

Francisco64

Metric Tensor: good advice, thank you. I know exactly what you mean about the robustness. I suspect we could get away with lower speeds than we have at the moment here in Dublin but even with efibre the connection is bouncing around quite a bit.

Francisco64

artictree: yes, I'm on meteor so that's always goosed in rural areas. My wifes on Vodafone and thats better but can still involve some walking around with the phone in the air!

Lumen

Eir will do the test for you with only the address. You don't need the landline number.

Francisco64

Lumen: they told me on the phone they'd need a landline number for a test. Most of the houses I've looked at only have the townland name as the address not a no and street.

Metric Tensor

The test based on the address could give a spurious result. Particularly in the countryside where two houses a mile apart could have the exact same address. I wouldn't risk it without checking the actual line in question.

If I checked my current address the result would say 24 when in reality I can't even get 5.

Francisco64

Yes, that's kind of what the guy in Eir said. He'd need the number as the rural addresses aren't precise enough.

Lumen

Francisco64 wrote: »

Lumen: they told me on the phone they'd need a landline number for a test. Most of the houses I've looked at only have the townland name as the address not a no and street.

Hmmm. Maybe it depends on the house. The one I'm buying has a unique name which forms part of the Eircode record.

The remote test said 80mbps which is consistent with proximity to exchange (<200m). Fingers crossed, I've signed the contract now!

jinkybhoy

I live in castlerahan/ballyjamesduff area. I'm lucky that I can get a fixed broadband line in - but dont get more than 2mps - My provider when I checked before say you can get up to 20mps as far as I remember!! My friend lives not 1 mile from me and closer to exchange and can't get a landline or broadband!

ForestFire

Francisco64 wrote: »

Lumen: they told me on the phone they'd need a landline number for a test. Most of the houses I've looked at only have the townland name as the address not a no and street.

Every house now has an Eircode. Can you/Eir not use this to pinpoint the location?

Francisco64

Lumen: the eir guy never mentioned the Eircode so that could well be another way of checking as its more precise.

jinkybhoy: gawd almighty, thats a bit random.

We had no idea this was going to be such an issue. We were aware that some remoter parts would have bad coverage but thought even relatively close to Dublin or close to main routes or towns would be okay.

Francisco64

Forestfire: I'd have to check with Eir again. When I spoke to them they only mentioned needing the landline no and didn't say anything about the Eircode. I hadn't thought of it when speaking to them.

MarkAnthony

No one uses Eircode due the cost involved.

Don't trust anything Eir tell you without a confirmed ARD key.

DanielDI

Thanks for writing this. We are going out in FIVE days to look at some rural property and pick which one we want to live on for the rest of our lives. I THOUGHT I was obsessive and anal but, dang, after reading this I ve got some homework to do this week. You ve brought up several excellent issues that never crossed my mind.

Francisco64

Markanthony: whats an ARD key?

Danieldi: yes, its proving a lot more complicated than we'd thought. And just to throw another spanner in the works I need to check on public liability insurance on any land we'd have as we're hoping to get a couple of acres.

jinkybhoy

Francisco64 wrote: »

Markanthony: whats an ARD key?

Danieldi: yes, its proving a lot more complicated than we'd thought. And just to throw another spanner in the works I need to check on public liability insurance on any land we'd have as we're hoping to get a couple of acres.

Most house policies will cover up to an acre max so you'd have to get a a kind of farm type policy to cover extra land in my opinion - FBD are your best best there but not a good time with them as they are getting rid of business or quoting high premiums.

Francisco64

Ah okay. Good to know. We wouldn't be doing anything with it apart from having a few chickens on it. More just want the ground as a bit of a buffer for some peace and quiet.

sonners

also on the internet issue - alot of the satellite service providers block-out or have restrictions on vpn connections. So if you need to connect to a vpn to work from home that rules them out as an option. Its one of the small print clauses that none of them will tell you about (most of their operators dont even realise its there as they rarely come across it).

Also a +1 for the 'this house has broadband but the house beside it can't get it' phenomenon - happens all over the country unfortunately. My personal experience was that I had vodafone broadband, I asked to move to fibre, no problem they said, engineer arrives out and says no can do. I contacted Eir to see if they could give it to me (I know its the same lines but anyway... ) 2 out of 3 calls to Eir I was told no, when they told me yes I took the contract (I could cancel for free if they couldn't actually give me the service). Eir arrived out and I now have 45mb consistently into the house.

Basically a speedtest on the property is the only guaranteed way of knowing what you can actually get on the property unfortunately.

Metric Tensor

Also to add into the mix - I think you'll have to pay stamp duty on any land you buy with the house that's above an acre.

Broadband was the single biggest sticking point on almost every house we looked at. In the end we had to settle for a less than ideal solution (fixed wireless) and it has made work more difficult for me but I trade that off against the benefits - I'm watching the neighbour out the window cutting silage in the glorious sunshine as I do my 9-5!

Water John

Francisco, you begin to see why Rural Broadband is such an issue highlighted by rural TD's. Some journalists were not taking its importance seriously.

I think Hibernian also do farm insurance. Always ask a broker.

Impossible to know wells and recharge. You'll have to largely take the sellers word. Most wells would have enough for one house. September would be the weakest month.

Check the planning office of the county to see if planning is granted for anything near your possible purchase.

Francisco64

Sonners: another minus for satellite so. I'll have to check if my wife uses a vpn. But always the possibility that if she's not on one now she may be in the future. Talking to the neighbours about their service will be useless then with those situations. Hmm.....

sonners

Francisco64 wrote: »

Sonners: another minus for satellite so. I'll have to check if my wife uses a vpn. But always the possibility that if she's not on one now she may be in the future. Talking to the neighbours about their service will be useless then with those situations. Hmm.....

It might be worth checking with the satellite providers in the local area - I'm down in Wexford and the most common ones down here all block the connection or restrict traffic going through it to 0 (so you can connect but can't access anything).

But you're right, even if she doesn't use a vpn at the moment its a very common requirement if working from home so she may well need it in the future.

Francisco64

Metric Tensor: I did not know that about the stamp duty on the extra land. I'll look into that. Well you're living the dream now anyway!

Water John: Yes, absolutely agree rural broadband is a major issue. Especially now after looking into it.The benefits to small businesses are huge. I've been able to buy items from craftspeople in remote areas in other countries who couldn't afford to operate in major cities and they can sell products/services internationally. The same could apply here.

I will check out the local planning office. Any idea off the top of your head how long they have to be displayed before being built?

Sonners: just home now and checked with the wife. She is on a vpn. I had originally thought that satellite would have given us what we wanted but we'd pay for it.

Water John

Most plannings are given for 5 years, some go to 10 years.

Too late to find out planning has been granted for some thing you disagree with in the area, after you have bought.

Francisco64

Indeed. I think that'll be the 2nd box to be ticked after broadband. Thanks for that.

athtrasna

While rural broadband is a major issue, it may be better to research that in the appropriate regional fora when you narrow down your search area, or indeed in the networking and broadband forum. It has taken over 90% of this thread and is masking the posts about other issues and advice on buying a country property, as asked in the OP so maybe we can move on from the broadband discussion? Thanks, Mod

Francisco64

Thank you everyone for all your replies. My original post was with regard to wells and septic tanks but the broadband discussion was very useful as it's a deal breaker for us. Some other really useful points came out during the discussion.

Is there anything further anyone would add to this list of items to check for people moving from an urban area to a rural area?

1. Broadband: already discussed.

2. Planning permission: check the local council offices to see if anything will be built close to the new property.

3.Stamp duty: I've checked this. From Revenue:
" If a house and gardens which comprise an area of more than one acre are sold, the
consideration must be apportioned between the house and the curtilage (the one acre
which is most suitable for occupation and enjoyment with the dwelling) and the
remaining land. The consideration apportioned to the house and curtilage is liable to
residential rates of duty and the consideration apportioned to the lands over the one
acre is liable at non-residential rates."
So that's 1% for house and gardens and 2% on the rest.

4. If you're buying more than 1 acre you may also need an insurance policy (possibly a farm type policy) to cover the extra acreage not covered under the normal house insurance. Talk to brokers.
(we ourselves were hoping to get a couple of acres around the house as I like to sing very loudly when in the shower)

5. Check you can get mobile phone signals if you'll need them.

6. Re well and septic tanks: these would not normally be checked under a normal building survey so you need specialists to check these at an extra cost if you have any concerns. Likewise the water quality can be tested again at extra cost.

jinkybhoy

Francisco64 wrote: »

4. If you're buying more than 1 acre you may also need an insurance policy (possibly a farm type policy) to cover the extra acreage not covered under the normal house insurance. Talk to brokers.
(we ourselves were hoping to get a couple of acres around the house as I like to sing very loudly when in the shower)

5. Check you can get mobile phone signals if you'll need them.

6. Re well and septic tanks: these would not normally be checked under a normal building survey so you need specialists to check these at an extra cost if you have any concerns. Likewise the water quality can be tested again at extra cost.

4. Aviva and Zurich are your best bets on these along with FBD - Zurich are pretty competitive

5. check throughout the house. May get good signal in kitchen but none upstairs as I found out!!

6. Septic tanks are more than likely the bio cycles now and if it's an older one ie Septic pit type thing, you may have to upgrade to one of these - I'm only guessing here so open to correction. I have bio cycle and it's good but don't put wipes or paper towels down the toilets - Had to clean it a few times - not pleasant!!!

Water John

Mobile phone reception limited upstairs, often by foil backed insulation in the roof space.