Athenry anyone going today?

blue5000

Teagasc have an open day on sucklers this afternoon. I think almost everyone is either at silage or getting ready for it. Turnout could be low. I am going anyway because it's on the type of cows I have.

bogman_bass

would be interested in going but have tomorrow booked off work for silage so getting two days off in a row would be cheeky

Muckit

About 35min over the road but not going. Great land so has no relevance to me. I'd only come home depressed out of it!!

tanko

If this is their only open day this year, they picked a bad time of year to have it. Surely August or September would have been better.
Is the Suckler herd in Grange still going or has it gone bankrupt yet?:pac:

Muckit

Was at the grange open day before. Good to see the facilities. The main idea they were pushing that day was that a calf out of cow with a FR strain in her would rare an animal that would reach slaughter weight quicker and therefore be more profitable. Milk trumped beef genetics basically everytime. I found it a hard one to swallow.

This demo farm in Athenry, sure it might aswell be in Grange. Yes on paper its a west of Ireland suckler demo farm but l'd safely say it bears little if any corelation to 90% of farms in the west. I wonder are they in GLAS? Have they any LIPP? Are they putting slurry out by trailing shoe or dribble bar? How or had they to deal with flooding over winter and how are they dealing with the aftermath like their neighbours in ardrahan etc?

blue5000

It is good land alright, no argument there. Nothing wrong with the calves out of dairy x AA and He cows anyway. I was a bit surprised to see that all the bull calves are castrated at 5-6 months and mostly killed before the second winter.

Replacements are bought in from 3 dairy herds and contract reared. No plans to breed any of their own. I guess teagasc are trying to show what can be done with all the beef x heifers that are going to come on stream from the expanding dairy herd.

They've spent a lot of money putting in paddocks and water troughs, roughly 22k. I was a bit shocked that it would cost that much, I suppose most of us do it bit by bit when there is surplus cash available so we don't ever see the big lump of money going into it.

All ai being used at present, they do it oad at 12 midday and if a cow is still bulling that evening she gets served again the next day. Seems to be working well anyway. Bulls will be used to mop up. Submission rate is 77% after 25 days.

Milk from the dairy side is driving calves on, 1.25 kg lwg from calves is good, but like the rest of us had to feed cows in a sacrifice paddock in April for a few days, but now baling paddocks as they get too strong. All in all I was impressed with the quality of the yearlings esp the heifers. I think there is scope in the system to sell the weanling bulls for export and finish the heifers off grass at roughly 18mths. It might be more profitable than trying to finish steers before the second winter, just my 2 cents.

jfh

Hi blue, is it all terminal sires been used if they buy in replacements?
Do they reckon it's more cost effective to buy in replacements?
What stage are they bought in?
Sorry about all the questions, was keen to get there today but got held up

Count Mondego

Went to this event today. Quite good and first proper beef day I've been to other than one of the better farm events last summer in Limerick. Farm is well laid out with roadways and paddock system in place. Nothing wrong with doing these trials on good land, just apply whatever elements are relevant to your own place.

For me the big question was obviously the cow. They buy replacement calves from 4 dairy farmers for 260 euro, all 4-5 star and contract rear them off farm until a few months before calving. Total cost for replacement in calf is around 12-1300 with cull cow prices of 970 to off weight this. The mature cow average weight is 560 kg, about 200 lighter than most of my hoors. Less poaching and out earlier as well as easier to manage condition during year. All AI this year and the cows are so docile one mane can walk her off the fields an into the yard. That's the game changer for me. They vaccinate for nearly everything but worming is done on faecal sample basis only. Vet costs including all vaccines are around €80 per cow.

Needless to say, grass management was first class with a 3 week grow, 3 days eat for each paddock based on SR. Ideally grazing at 10-12 down to 4cm. Extra growth taken out as silage, already 140 bales done this way.

AI sires chosen based on strict criteria of Carcass over +30 kg and calving difficulty of less than 7% with reliability of at least 60%. So far that was 2 SIMs and a CH bull I think.

blue5000

jfh wrote: »

Hi blue, is it all terminal sires been used if they buy in replacements?
Do they reckon it's more cost effective to buy in replacements?
What stage are they bought in?
Sorry about all the questions, was keen to get there today but got held up

Count M types faster, yes.

Trying to keep it simple for 1 man by having the heifers contract reared. There's 100 cows.

tanko

Thanks for the reports lads.
So, how much money have they lost so far?:D

Count Mondego

tanko wrote: »

Thanks for the reports lads.
So, how much money have they lost so far?:D

300k ☺

rliston

Net margin 2015: -€200/ha
It would be interesting to see the profit monitor!

tractorporn

blue5000 wrote:

They've spent a lot of money putting in paddocks and water troughs, roughly 22k. I was a bit shocked that it would cost that much, I suppose most of us do it bit by bit when there is surplus cash available so we don't ever see the big lump of money going into it.

I saw this on the Journal a few weeks ago and was also shocked. Imo Teagasc should be showing restraint especially in spending during hard times like these.

bogman_bass

tractorporn wrote: »

I saw this on the Journal a few weeks ago and was also shocked. Imo Teagasc should be showing restraint especially in spending during hard times like these.

They absolutely should not! They are a research organisation. It's their job to take these gambles instead of farmers. Their job isn't to have the most profitable farm but to push things to the limit so us farmers can know where the limit is

Miname

bogman_bass wrote: »

They absolutely should not! They are a research organisation. It's their job to take these gambles instead of farmers. Their job isn't to have the most profitable farm but to push things to the limit so us farmers can know where the limit is

I couldn't agree with you more. Teagasc take the risks and it's for u to interpret the results. It's a benchmark for us to work off.

tractorporn

bogman_bass wrote:

They absolutely should not! They are a research organisation. It's their job to take these gambles instead of farmers. Their job isn't to have the most profitable farm but to push things to the limit so us farmers can know where the limit is

I agree that as a research organisation they should be pushing the boundaries but not so far as they are almost unachievable by the majority of farmers?

Mac Taylor

Went over to the event today. Biggest issue I had is the market for the end product, which to me is mince meat for the bargain basement in the uk. Given that the meat will have significant AA and HE in them will it not be too marbelled for the European market? Also if we go down this route what about the live export market? Based on what I saw only a few of them would be export suitable? Do they want us to produce for Larry and co only? Someone previously mentioned this was a west of Ireland demo Farm, they made it clear it was a demo farm for one potential option given the availability of dairy offspring.

J.O. Farmer

tractorporn wrote: »

I agree that as a research organisation they should be pushing the boundaries but not so far as they are almost unachievable by the majority of farmers?

Are the boundaries unachievable though given enough time. It might take a farmer 10 years to get the paddocks in in stages.
Teagasc have to get things done in a much shorter timeline. If it took them a lifetime to try a system we'd never learn anything. If what their doing is wrong too farmers wwill have followed them down the wrong path.

bogman_bass

tractorporn wrote: »

I agree that as a research organisation they should be pushing the boundaries but not so far as they are almost unachievable by the majority of farmers?

If other industries took that view we'd still be in the Stone Age!

Bullocks

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Went over to the event today. Biggest issue I had is the market for the end product, which to me is mince meat for the bargain basement in the uk. Given that the meat will have significant AA and HE in them will it not be too marbelled for the European market? Also if we go down this route what about the live export market? Based on what I saw only a few of them would be export suitable? Do they want us to produce for Larry and co only? Someone previously mentioned this was a west of Ireland demo Farm, they made it clear it was a demo farm for one potential option given the availability of dairy offspring.

I would've gladly rented them our place if they wanted a west of Ireland type farm !

Muckit

blue5000 wrote: »

They've spent a lot of money putting in paddocks and water troughs, roughly 22k. I was a bit shocked that it would cost that much, I suppose most of us do it bit by bit when there is surplus cash available so we don't ever see the big lump of money going into it.

No blue barrels then?:) You could have taken the stand and shown them a thing or two.bTil they got on their feet like.

I know what bogman is saying a research facility should push the limits of what's acheiveable. But God if we'd all be great men if we had no budget and an open chequebook !

They are there to educate also. And if they are educating doo daws starting out to go out spending big money that won't work and will be no help to anyone. They should be showing the budget options too.

annubis

went to see it yesterday, one thing that stood out for me and im open to correction on this but after all the figures etc were they still talking about achieving a profit of 25k? the cows looked good in fairness, alot of the calves were fairly average looking I thought. thought the figure for fencing and water system were fairly hairy . thought the 4.5K stock bull looked very low sized, hard to believe 1 man can do the lot there between calving and feeding etc. in general it was good to see

blue5000

Muckit wrote: »

No blue barrels then?:) You could have taken the stand and shown them a thing or two.bTil they got on their feet like.

I know what bogman is saying a research facility should push the limits of what's acheiveable. But God if we'd all be great men if we had no budget and an open chequebook !

They are there to educate also. And if they are educating doo daws starting out to go out spending big money that won't work and will be no help to anyone. They should be showing the budget options too.

If I had the money I'd have concrete troughs everywhere too.:o They said they replaced all the galvanised and plastic troughs.

It's a demo farm, if they had leaking plastic troughs lads would be bitching on here about it too.

Really what I was trying to say was I was a bit shocked on what it would cost to put in paddocks and water, if I had to start over and replace all my paddocks and water troughs in the morning I wouldn't be able to do it.

These were probably all done at contract prices, probably incl. vat, if we did it we'd do a lot of it ourselves and get the vat back.

jimmy G M

Thx for reports Blue & Count & others. You'll always pick up something new look at how others operate, If I could have taken the time off work I would have loved to have gone. Maybe next year :rolleyes:

tanko

Anyone know what their stocking rate is?
Do they grow their own silage?

blue5000

tanko wrote: »

Anyone know what their stocking rate is?
Do they grow their own silage?

Target is 2.7 lu/ha, yes make 1200 ton silage.

TITANIUM.

blue5000 wrote: »

Target is 2.7 lu/ha, yes make 1200 ton silage.

How much land are they operating out of?

annubis

TITANIUM. wrote: »

How much land are they operating out of?

55 hectares i think, great land in fairness

bullnuts

Paddocks and water costing 22k ! Nice contract for one of the boys ! All for doing a job right but jaysus how did it cost that much ? I wasn't there but I see from the photos a lot of poly wire pigtails and the fencing is single strand

Muckit

where are you seeing those photos?

bullnuts

Muckit wrote: »

where are you seeing those photos?

Agriland

patsy_mccabe

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/pics-and-video-are-suckler-cows-sourced-from-the-dairy-herd-the-way-forward/

joeyboy12345

Was down myself and thought it an interesting show!very suprised with d quality of the cows! 3questions i didnt hear asked or told was
1. Who owns the land
2. Is there a rent paid or factored into the costs
3. Is there a sfp on the farm and how much?

LivInt20

joeyboy12345 wrote: »

Was down myself and thought it an interesting show!very suprised with d quality of the cows! 3questions i didnt hear asked or told was
1. Who owns the land
2. Is there a rent paid or factored into the costs
3. Is there a sfp on the farm and how much?

IDA own the land Teagasc rent the land.
No rental figure included in the costs but,
No SFP included in the figures.

cacs

LivInt20 wrote: »

IDA own the land Teagasc rent the land.
No rental figure included in the costs but,
No SFP included in the figures.

I went to Athenry. Honestly I was very impressed at their grassland management it was very expensive but it is something to work towards. The land is unreal. No rushes no hills just open planes. The cattle on the other hand did not impress me. The cows were nice little cows great milkers . But I would be more interested in the their calfs and yearlings. Honestly none of them impressed me. The size and shape of the Angus was evident in the all of them and so was the fresin. I don't care you give a fresin bull all the milk you want it still won't turn him into a good continental calf and I thought this was evident in the calfs. They plan on finishing them before winter next off grass. Honestly all of the cattle have a lot of work to do . There approach to the steers and heifers spending most of there lives at grass was definitely interesting. I thought the calfs weaning weights and set off to grass weights after the first winter was only average. But I do it's a low cost system and I definitely took away a lot from it

Bullocks

cathal irwin wrote: »

I went to Athenry. Honestly I was very impressed at their grassland management it was very expensive but it is something to work towards. The land is unreal. No rushes no hills just open planes. The cattle on the other hand did not impress me. The cows were nice little cows great milkers . But I would be more interested in the their calfs and yearlings. Honestly none of them impressed me. The size and shape of the Angus was evident in the all of them and so was the fresin. I don't care you give a fresin bull all the milk you want it still won't turn him into a good continental calf and I thought this was evident in the calfs. They plan on finishing them before winter next off grass. Honestly all of the cattle have a lot of work to do . There approach to the steers and heifers spending most of there lives at grass was definitely interesting. I thought the calfs weaning weights and set off to grass weights after the first winter was only average. But I do it's a low cost system and I definitely took away a lot from it

I suppose they don't want the big continental types because the factories don't want the bigger carcasses anymore

cacs

Bullocks wrote: »

I suppose they don't want the big continental types because the factories don't want the bigger carcasses anymore

Yea that was a clear message . But I think I would prefer to have a good lim X cow and bread an Angus bull much better calfs Bulls etc

Count Mondego

cathal irwin wrote: »

Yea that was a clear message . But I think I would prefer to have a good lim X cow and bread an Angus bull much better calfs Bulls etc

Your missing the point here. There no point having cattle killing out at 450 kg anymore. Granted they're lovely to look at and neighbours will admire them from the road but:

1: You be penalised 3 out of 4 years for oversized carcass

2: Bigger cow and bullock will destroy land in wet conditions meaning earlier housing and later turnout

3: Targeting 350kg means actually more total kgs of meat sold out the farm gate each year as you'll have a higher stocking rate

4: You won't finish continental stock at 20 mo the without a second winter indoors and tons of concentrate. Massive extra cost for extra kgs that the factory will penalise you for when you kill.

cacs

Count Mondego wrote: »

Your missing the point here. There no point having cattle killing out at 450 kg anymore. Granted they're lovely to look at and neighbours will admire them from the road but:

1: You be penalised 3 out of 4 years for oversized carcass

2: Bigger cow and bullock will destroy land in wet conditions meaning earlier housing and later turnout

3: Targeting 350kg means actually more total kgs of meat sold out the farm gate each year as you'll have a higher stocking rate

4: You won't finish continental stock at 20 mo the without a second winter indoors and tons of concentrate. Massive extra cost for extra kgs that the factory will penalise you for when you kill.

I completely agree but they are breeding terminal easy calfing sires lim char sim with these small cows which for any part time suckler farmers spells trouble . I don't care. They have a lot of resources that would not exist on an standard Irish farm. I still think a lot of suckler farmers have to use A stock bull for convenience which will have questionable calfing diffficulty reliability scores. Add this to a small cow with a small birth canal and you better a jack and a vet at hand. That's why I believe if we have breed more early finished cattle a bigger continental cow cross with early maturing bull will be the best of both worlds .

Also this is trend for now maybe it will continue I don't know.
All I do know is if we keep chasing the market every year we will end up in mess . It takes so long to build a herd it's not something that you change over night. A herd cannot be bought it can only be bred . I thinking I will wait 3 years before I make a call to switch.

Muckit

Bullocks wrote: »

I suppose they don't want the big continental types because the factories don't want the bigger carcasses anymore

That's what they are saying anyway

Muckit

cathal irwin wrote: »

I completely agree but they are breeding terminal easy calfing sires lim char sim with these small cows which for any part time suckler farmers spells trouble . I don't care. They have a lot of resources that would not exist on an standard Irish farm. I still think a lot of suckler farmers have to use A stock bull for convenience which will have questionable calfing diffficulty reliability scores. Add this to a small cow with a small birth canal and you better a jack and a vet at hand. That's why I believe if we have breed more early finished cattle a bigger continental cow cross with early maturing bull will be the best of both worlds .

Also this is trend for now maybe it will continue I don't know.
All I do know is if we keep chasing the market every year we will end up in mess . It takes so long to build a herd it's not something that you change over night. A herd cannot be bought it can only be bred . I thinking I will wait 3 years before I make a call to switch.

Only something like 25% of cattle bred from suckler herd are AI bred is what l think l read.

Practicalities have to come into it. Too many factors going against it. Irish farms are very fragmented. Then theres the hassle of beinging cows in for AI as well as required handling facilities. Cattle are lucky if they get seen at all if you are working fulltime, rearing a family and trying to hang on to your sanity.

Small suckler suckler farmers are goosed from the start as it is makes more financial sense to use AI in herds under 20cows and you've access to the best genetics and no bull to be worried about.

But the practicalities of getting cows in calf easily with minimum fuss requires natural service.

blue5000

I wonder how many calvings were assisted?

Muckit

Be good one to know how many part time suckler lads are AIing AND paddock grazing. V few l would think. And for good reason.

patsy_mccabe

I'm trying to breed a smaller suckler cow myself. I have some huge cows and I can't see them being anywhere as profitable as the small quiet easily kept cow.
Would it not make sense to go a step further and get rid of the suckler cow completely. Start a nation wide programme to encourage dairy guys to use better beef genetics, while still holding onto the short gestation and easy calving. Calves would be sold tru the ring ring as being part of this new scheme.

patsy_mccabe

Muckit wrote: »

Be good one to know how many part time suckler lads are AIing AND paddock grazing. V few l would think. And for good reason.

I am . The fence wire makes it a lot easier to get cows out for AI'ing. I ran my own home bred bull last year and for the start of this year but was offered a good price for him so off he went. I kind of suits me too as I want to use Simmental straws on the rest to breed for the BDGP scheme.

Count Mondego

Muckit wrote: »

Be good one to know how many part time suckler lads are AIing AND paddock grazing. V few l would think. And for good reason.

I like the idea of paddock grazing. Problem for me is that most of my grazing land for cattle is reclaimed and even if I had paddocks I couldn't bale alot of them if I had surplus.

Lot of lads raising the point of who owns the land/rent etc, but most of us own our farms on here. The only system change to copy this is fencing and cow in most cases.

Limestone Cowboy

What's ye're average mature cow weight lads that are saying they are too big. Nearly all continental cows here and most are only around 600kg and would be weaning calves at 6-7 months 300kg with no meal and a lot of our land wouldn't be great. I can't see how I'd be much better off with fr x cows to be honest.

patsy_mccabe

LC, you are on dry land so 600kgs would be ideal. I'm on wetter land and some of my cows would be more like 700kgs, with the odd one even heavier. These are all home bred from AI. The way breeding is going now and all these high star bulls being used, cows will get even bigger again.

Count Mondego

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

most are only around 600kg.

I have a good few CH\SIM that would average 750. Have a good few LM that would be around the same as yourself. For me, in the future, I won't have a good auld fella around to help with the day to day stuff, moving stock etc. It's more important for me to have a quite, manageable herd suitable for a one man operation who also works off farm. If profitability drops a small bit it won't matter too much in the short term, which should be off weighed with future profits.

The system in Athenry is specifically tailored to finishing at 20 months. They're not saying this is the system for lads who sell weanlings.

Bullocks

Count Mondego wrote: »

The system in Athenry is specifically tailored to finishing at 20 months. They're not saying this is the system for lads who sell weanlings.

If you're selling weanlins then the Charlaois is hard bet and forget about a cow with fr breeding because they don't look the part in the mart and won't get the best price

Bullocks

cathal irwin wrote: »

. Add this to a small cow with a small birth canal and you better a jack and a vet at hand.

I'd say the hol fr cross will throw out a calf as easy as any big continental but I could be wrong