Full Time Farm Manager - Salary Expectations

onrail

Folks,

Hoping you could throw some advice my way:

I'm currently living and working away from the farm, but hoping to move back close to home in the coming 2-2.5 years. The farm is relatively large (270 acres) but somewhat unproductive (milking 40-50 cows/160 head cattle/70 ewes/50 acres let out to a tillage farmer) mainly due to the father slowing down a bit.

Ideally, I'd love to retain both my off-farm employment and the milking herd but as you can imagine, milking while holding down a demanding off-farm job would be close to impossible.

Doing the sums at the minute, it seems like the only financially sensible thing to do would be to let out the land. Really doesn't sit well with me though (nor does leaving the security of full-time employment!).

An ideal solution would be for me to employ a farm manager/labour to milk and manage things during the week while I take over most weekends. It's within the means of the herd and facilities to increase to 80-90 cows without any borrowings in the next 4-5 years, but with the medium term outlook for milk prices, net profits of the farm won't be amazing.

But regardless would anyone have any idea what a farm manager would demand salary-wise for such a set-up? If a 3 bedroom house was thrown in for good measure?

Any other thoughts/advice are very much welcome!

Waffletraktor

Your looking for a foreman more than manager unless you want someone to do the work and all management decisions long and short ferm. About 35k for a foreman + house/phone/insurance/vehicle

onrail

Steeper than I thought tbh... Is the above package exclusive of any weekend working?

Waffletraktor

onrail wrote: »

Steeper than I thought tbh... Is the above package exclusive of any weekend working?

Depends what you want but for someone good to look after it on farm 24/7 with yourself working out a rota for some relief( maybe a weeks holiday with cows) it's the ball park. If they're doing 100% of decision making with advisory input from you/your dad that amount or if they are just a foreman doing what ye decide on at a meeting say every weekend less alright. Hiring people changes the game to what you the farmer expects, the manager must farm it like it was their own just never forget it won't be iykwim.
Without knowing anything about the farm but is it at its maximum potential? If hiring a manager you would expect them to be pushing on from you fathers slightly relaxed view as you want it too. They're not being paid to do what has been done but do a better job than is being done and have the knowledge and ability to do so.

Jaysus Christ

Plant trees in it. Last thing we need is more cows. Emissions.

€50000 (or there abouts) a year tax free and keep the job.

farmerjj

Jaysus Christ wrote: »

Plant trees in it. Last thing we need is more cows. Emissions.

€50000 (or there abouts) a year tax free and keep the job.

Tree,s why would you say that, could be great land for all you know.

Jaysus Christ

farmerjj wrote: »

Tree,s why would you say that, could be great land for all you know.

The best of land planted around here for high premiums. And keep your bfp.
Not a nice option but the way farming has gone it's a real option now.

Everything seems to be pushing towards that. Even tillage land left fallow here. The end game is trees.

_Brian

Jaysus Christ wrote: »

The best of land planted around here for high premiums. And keep your bfp.
Not a nice option but the way farming has gone it's a real option now.

Everything seems to be pushing towards that. Even tillage land left fallow here. The end game is trees.

I spoke to three lads today at work and all we're saying there is no sensible decision other than planting, one a small dairy man and two suckler men. I know none would plant but they understand they would get much superior returns with the land planted, it's a sad fact.

Surely in relation to OP the best he could hope is to get someone in who will keep things on track but by the time that person is paid properly there will hardly be much left for OP. I'd be thinking of working in some sort of performance measures with bonus payments, whatever fits, X for selling 2 lambs per sheep, similar measures for dairy.

But to get a return perhaps renting the place to a good tenant would be a compromise, have the place farmed and a good tenant will look after the place, chances you'll have more out of the place than the tenant and still have the farm yourself for the future whatever that brings.

mf240

farmerjj wrote: »

Tree,s why would you say that, could be great land for all you know.

Will grow great trees so.

Bass Reeves

Superior returns for 20 years, then a big payday at year 40. Then............nothing. Land that was worth 8-12k now worth 2-4k. Short term thinking might as well sell it to someone that can farm it.

No guarantees with sfp in 4+ years time EU could pull the plug on forestry and sfp copayment at any stage. Longterm leasing is a better option on good land.

Other option OP is to go completely drystock and lease part of farm. Lease half and farm other half. Not sure if you can receive lease money tax free while farming. However if you are living away from the farm that may not be an option. A large sheep operation mould be viable with a farm manager and seasonal help.1K+ ewes could be ran on that amount of land. Include a small pedigree herd of a breed that you or the manager are interested in.

_Brian

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Superior returns for 20 years, then a big payday at year 40. Then............nothing. Land that was worth 8-12k now worth 2-4k. Short term thinking might as well sell it to someone that can farm it.

No guarantees with sfp in 4+ years time EU could pull the plug on forestry and sfp copayment at any stage. Longterm leasing is a better option on good land.

Other option OP is to go completely drystock and lease part of farm. Lease half and farm other half. Not sure if you can receive lease money tax free while farming. However if you are living away from the farm that may not be an option. A large sheep operation mould be viable with a farm manager and seasonal help.1K+ ewes could be ran on that amount of land. Include a small pedigree herd of a breed that you or the manager are interested in.

Sorry, I know nothing of forestry, but after year 40 do you not just start again 😳

Timmaay

Jaysus Christ wrote: »

Plant trees in it. Last thing we need is more cows. Emissions.

€50000 (or there abouts) a year tax free and keep the job.

Become a vegan while your at it lol.

Bass Reeves

No grants for replanting at present and you would have no income from replanting until year 25 again. Also a forestry land on this forum a few years back indicated that you would need to fertilize the second crop with about 1-2 ton of 10.10.20. Otherwise it would take over 60 years to mature.

pedigree 6

Timmaay wrote: »

Become a vegan while your at it lol.

Gas fella and he cutting silage for a living. Lol.

mf240

Timmaay wrote: »

Become a vegan while your at it lol.

Thats just nuts. and some fruit nothing else.

Really shouldn't eat nuts either incase you cause a squirrel to run out.

patsy_mccabe

Plant the whole country and then take on the squirrels for the nuts.:D

mf240

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Plant the whole country and then take on the squirrels for the nuts.:D

You know why squirrels swim on their backs??










To keep their nuts dry.

onrail

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Depends what you want but for someone good to look after it on farm 24/7 with yourself working out a rota for some relief( maybe a weeks holiday with cows) it's the ball park. If they're doing 100% of decision making with advisory input from you/your dad that amount or if they are just a foreman doing what ye decide on at a meeting say every weekend less alright. Hiring people changes the game to what you the farmer expects, the manager must farm it like it was their own just never forget it won't be iykwim.
Without knowing anything about the farm but is it at its maximum potential? If hiring a manager you would expect them to be pushing on from you fathers slightly relaxed view as you want it too. They're not being paid to do what has been done but do a better job than is being done and have the knowledge and ability to do so.

Thanks for the feedback. Most answers here reflect what I was afraid of really. At current milk prices, €35k + benefits is about as much as the farm would earn by itself. Long term leases are more or less tax free. No work required, no brainer...

To be honest, the farm is well below potential at the minute. Land is dry (almost too much so) and a good reseeding is needed. When it's done, the milking block could support 100 cows without much problem. Plenty of room elsewhere for replacements/drystock etc. Get rid of the sheep obviously.

I'd love to get out of the rat race and get into dairying, but with the prospect of starting a family, the time commitments and uncertainty in the industry it seems like madness at the minute. Suppose there isn't much logical farming going on in the country at the minute though!

When things calm down a bit, it would be lovely to just have the herd handed back without much disruption, having made a tidy profit. Seems like wishful thinking!

carrollsno1

35k for 100 odd cows was offered ballpark 35k for 400 cows as joint foreman/manager

Dawggone

carrollsno1 wrote: »

35k for 100 odd cows was offered ballpark 35k for 400 cows as joint foreman/manager

Did you take it?

onrail

carrollsno1 wrote: »

35k for 100 odd cows was offered ballpark 35k for 400 cows as joint foreman/manager

I suppose apart from calving season, would workload be much different? Cows still need to be milked twice a day. Would anyone take the job for much less?

smokey-fitz

onrail wrote: »

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Depends what you want but for someone good to look after it on farm 24/7 with yourself working out a rota for some relief( maybe a weeks holiday with cows) it's the ball park. If they're doing 100% of decision making with advisory input from you/your dad that amount or if they are just a foreman doing what ye decide on at a meeting say every weekend less alright. Hiring people changes the game to what you the farmer expects, the manager must farm it like it was their own just never forget it won't be iykwim.
Without knowing anything about the farm but is it at its maximum potential? If hiring a manager you would expect them to be pushing on from you fathers slightly relaxed view as you want it too. They're not being paid to do what has been done but do a better job than is being done and have the knowledge and ability to do so.

Thanks for the feedback. Most answers here reflect what I was afraid of really. At current milk prices, 35k + benefits is about as much as the farm would earn by itself. Long term leases are more or less tax free. No work required, no brainer...

To be honest, the farm is well below potential at the minute. Land is dry (almost too much so) and a good reseeding is needed. When it's done, the milking block could support 100 cows without much problem. Plenty of room elsewhere for replacements/drystock etc. Get rid of the sheep obviously.

I'd love to get out of the rat race and get into dairying, but with the prospect of starting a family, the time commitments and uncertainty in the industry it seems like madness at the minute. Suppose there isn't much logical farming going on in the country at the minute though!

When things calm down a bit, it would be lovely to just have the herd handed back without much disruption, having made a tidy profit. Seems like wishful thinking!

You could just do a long term lease, also lease your stock. At least then someone could get a good start at farming for themselves and in 5 or 10 years down the line if you wanted to take it back, you have the land and the stock. Not sure of the ins and outs but could be worth considering. At least then you will have an excuse to keep an eye on things because your leasing stock. This is only an idea I'm not sure if it can be done or worth doing.

carrollsno1

Dawggone wrote: »

Did you take it?

Still on the table reasons for taking it would be close to home possible chance to build up equity in the business reasons for not taking it im only 21 i dont want to be stuck at home my whole life i think the teagasc level 7 managers for 2 years would stand a lot to me and get to see more of the world saudi dairy farms you start off on 46k tax free which increases year on year and ive realised if i want to get into dairy farming in my own right im going to have to have a big ball of cash to set up so saudi looks the better option

onrail

smokey-fitz wrote: »

You could just do a long term lease, also lease your stock. At least then someone could get a good start at farming for themselves and in 5 or 10 years down the line if you wanted to take it back, you have the land and the stock. Not sure of the ins and outs but could be worth considering. At least then you will have an excuse to keep an eye on things because your leasing stock. This is only an idea I'm not sure if it can be done or worth doing.

That's a great suggestion, if it's workable. Main barrier (as always) would be the father losing control, but could retain a few acres and a shed for him to play around with a few sheep or sucklers and keep him occupied.

Timmaay

smokey-fitz wrote: »

You could just do a long term lease, also lease your stock. At least then someone could get a good start at farming for themselves and in 5 or 10 years down the line if you wanted to take it back, you have the land and the stock. Not sure of the ins and outs but could be worth considering. At least then you will have an excuse to keep an eye on things because your leasing stock. This is only an idea I'm not sure if it can be done or worth doing.

This would be a reasonable option assuming you managed to find the right person, the only thing is its a huge commitment for them, and unrealistic to expect them to build up the place just to hand it all back to you, 5years definitely is too short, 10years the minimum 2bh.

For the OP, certainly running 3 different enterprises at the second is inefficient in my view, 1st to go should be the sheep, 2bh I'd seriously look at scrapping the dairyside also for the minute, just focus on a simple beef system that returns you some profits. Can your dad still look after it during the week? Then weekends you move about animals/dosing etc etc. If needs be find someone to work every saturday with you. Actually the most important question of all in determining how profitable you might be, how big is the SFP ha??

Dawggone

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Still on the table reasons for taking it would be close to home possible chance to build up equity in the business reasons for not taking it im only 21 i dont want to be stuck at home my whole life i think the teagasc level 7 managers for 2 years would stand a lot to me and get to see more of the world saudi dairy farms you start off on 46k tax free which increases year on year and ive realised if i want to get into dairy farming in my own right im going to have to have a big ball of cash to set up so saudi looks the better option

If you're worth €46kp.a. What am I worth...?


Teagasc level 7? Didn't realise that Teagasc level7 was worth more than a Bsc.Hon's UCD?

onrail

Timmaay wrote: »

This would be a reasonable option assuming you managed to find the right person, the only thing is its a huge commitment for them, and unrealistic to expect them to build up the place just to hand it all back to you, 5years definitely is too short, 10years the minimum 2bh.

For the OP, certainly running 3 different enterprises at the second is inefficient in my view, 1st to go should be the sheep, 2bh I'd seriously look at scrapping the dairyside also for the minute, just focus on a simple beef system that returns you some profits. Can your dad still look after it during the week? Then weekends you move about animals/dosing etc etc. If needs be find someone to work every saturday with you. Actually the most important question of all in determining how profitable you might be, how big is the SFP ha??

Agree with you RE the sheep - complete waste of time and effort at that scale. Would keep around 10 ewes just for something different to look at in the spring.

Bit of an attachment to dairying (as you can probably make out) and we've put in a new milking parlour in the last couple of years. Would really kill me/us to get rid completely.

Have SFP entitlements for 86Ha. Not massive, but helps a lot.

onrail

Dawggone wrote: »

If you're worth €46kp.a. What am I worth...?

Teagasc level 7? Didn't realise that Teagasc level7 was worth more than a Bsc.Hon's from DCU...

Took me a while to realise after college, but a good leaving cert and degree entitles you to f*ck all.

If someone is willing to pay a lad €46k to milk cows then all power to him.

carrollsno1

Dawggone wrote: »

If you're worth €46kp.a. What am I worth...?


Teagasc level 7? Didn't realise that Teagasc level7 was worth more than a Bsc.Hon's from DCU...

Theres a lack of good stockmen and managers out in that part of the world i suppose theres a high risk factor to heading out there with isis and the like there economy is backed by the oil industry herd sizes are in the thousands not hundreds i suppose a managers course based on 2 seperate farms over 2 years with an option to travel to new zealand or missouri would stand to a lad better because he has more hands on experience than a lad coming from a bsc course ?

Timmaay

onrail wrote: »

Agree with you RE the sheep - complete waste of time and effort at that scale. Would keep around 10 ewes just for something different to look at in the spring.

Bit of an attachment to dairying (as you can probably make out) and we've put in a new milking parlour in the last couple of years. Would really kill me/us to get rid completely.

Have SFP entitlements for 86Ha. Not massive, but helps a lot.

What about OAD milking so, you'd almost definitely find a local relief milker who'd be well happy to have an extra milking at say 11am every day! Once your compact calving from June until the following Feb you can get away with largely just milking during the week, assuming you have a well setup paddock system, and contract out all machinary work.

Timmaay

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Theres a lack of good stockmen and managers out in that part of the world i suppose theres a high risk factor to heading out there with isis and the like there economy is backed by the oil industry herd sizes are in the thousands not hundreds i suppose a managers course based on 2 seperate farms over 2 years with an option to travel to new zealand or missouri would stand to a lad better because he has more hands on experience than a lad coming from a bsc course ?

Is there 46k salary for a stockman?? I'd say you'll be more of a people manager, you'll be over staff and you job will be to manage them and ensure they milk the cows and do whatever other jobs correctly.

onrail

Timmaay wrote: »

What about OAD milking so, you'd almost definitely find a local relief milker who'd be well happy to have an extra milking at say 11am every day! Once your compact calving from June until the following Feb you can get away with largely just milking during the week, assuming you have a well setup paddock system, and contract out all machinary work.

Yeah, not a bad call either... this is why Boards is great... not much good advice going in the Shmoke!

Timmaay

Dawggone wrote: »

If you're worth €46kp.a. What am I worth...?


Teagasc level 7? Didn't realise that Teagasc level7 was worth more than a Bsc.Hon's UCD?

Ah Dwag I'm sure if you headed over you'd immediately crack the whip, tighten up ship, increase productivity by 20% overnight, and do a deal with the owners that you get a nice tidy equity stake in the business with a salary that is linked to profits, and come back a millionare in a few years .

Dawggone

See....
Lesson for all ye eegits...

Nobody wants oil...but, by God, they want milk. Read those posts from the young movers/shakers from the kingdom of Saud.

carrollsno1

Timmaay wrote: »

Is there 46k salary for a stockman?? I'd say you'll be more of a people manager, you'll be over staff and you job will be to manage them and ensure they milk the cows and do whatever other jobs correctly.

Youd still have to be good with stock though i would imagine

keep going

Surprised noone has mentioned a partnership with a land resricted dairy farmer, depending on what suits you may have to invest in some infrastructure but it would leave you with options in the future

Waffletraktor

Dawggone wrote: »

Teagasc level 7? Didn't realise that Teagasc level7 was worth more than a Bsc.Hon's UCD?

A Bsc hns is worth 10 years on farm knowledge without the practical experience or being an overly qualified sales person. You need to invest in yourself doing in accounting/crop or advanced animal care type courses now to be any worth as good full timers are at the above levels now really.

carrollsno1 wrote: »

35k for 100 odd cows was offered ballpark 35k for 400 cows as joint foreman/manager

Depends what your comparing, at 100 cows your doing all the work and very limited help + the financials vs 400 your the people organiser and the day to day runner on the farm with probably little office input bar telling what invoice to expect and here's next weeks rota and grazing plan as we discussed Monday am kind of duties.

Bass Reeves

Everybody is forgetting investment needed. There 270 acres of land I assume that it is fairly good if 50 acres is leased for tillage. Not sure with present economy if dairyingis viable. Lads laugh at the taught of having to pay a mwnager 40-50k. However for to manage a dairy farm and be the labour as well working 50+ hours per week. What about holidays and time off. On a 100 cow operation with external labour is not viable. As another poster said if your dad is in good health a drystock may be an option but buying and selling stock would take a few hours as well.

I was surprised so many have discounted a sheep operation. More profitable than drystock but a bit more labour intensive. Most of the year a lad could run such an operation if well set up in 30 hours per week except at lambing. A lad for 6-8 weeks should sort that.lots of lads in ag colleges looking sheep experience.

yosemitesam1

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Theres a lack of good stockmen and managers out in that part of the world i suppose theres a high risk factor to heading out there with isis and the like there economy is backed by the oil industry herd sizes are in the thousands not hundreds i suppose a managers course based on 2 seperate farms over 2 years with an option to travel to new zealand or missouri would stand to a lad better because he has more hands on experience than a lad coming from a bsc course ?

Know a lad who did that course, said it was a waste of time basically a fancy greencert and wouldnt get you any better a job after doing it.

sako 85

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Your looking for a foreman more than manager unless you want someone to do the work and all management decisions long and short ferm. About 35k for a foreman + house/phone/insurance/vehicle

35k + house/phone/insurance/vehicle what does that entire package work out as? I would have that would have thought that would be very attractive, what farmers working their own place would be making the equivalent?

_Brian

sako 85 wrote: »

35k + house/phone/insurance/vehicle what does that entire package work out as? I would have that would have thought that would be very attractive, what farmers working their own place would be making the equivalent?

Very very few.
The perks there must be running to €10k

So it's a position worth ~€45k ??
Can't think of many farms making €45k clear money.

But isn't this part of the downfall of the likes of that farm in Cork where the owner wasn't interested in farming and was paying folk to do everything. I read an interview with him and he said he wanted to spend time doing other things other than farming. Has his wish now !!

sako 85

_Brian wrote: »

Very very few.
The perks there must be running to €10k

So it's a position worth ~€45k ??
Can't think of many farms making €45k clear money.

But isn't this part of the downfall of the likes of that farm in Cork where the owner wasn't interested in farming and was paying folk to do everything. I read an interview with him and he said he wanted to spend time doing other things other than farming. Has his wish now !!

I just was thinking it could be worth in excess of 50k, rental prices are high at the minute nation wide and then add in a vehicle. I honestly think the OP could get a suitable candidate for considerably less than this figure, bearing in mind he's willing to provide relief himself.

Milked out

What would ye pay a farm labourer working with you? Someone experienced that can do every job but you're there as well making the calls on grass fert feed etc? Working 9 to 6 or 7, 5 days a week. If he/she was to take home 500 a week it would probably come close to costing you 33k or more gross. So someone mak8ng the calls during the week on those day to day running would expect more I guess. Not employing anyone here but unemployment is dropping in the country so the cost of labour for us isn't going to be cheap or get cheaper

Waffletraktor

sako 85 wrote: »

35k + house/phone/insurance/vehicle what does that entire package work out as? I would have that would have thought that would be very attractive, what farmers working their own place would be making the equivalent?

sako 85 wrote: »

I just was thinking it could be worth in excess of 50k, rental prices are high at the minute nation wide and then add in a vehicle. I honestly think the OP could get a suitable candidate for considerably less than this figure, bearing in mind he's willing to provide relief himself.

Believe me that is firmly at the bottom end of the scale for a farmmanager to expect. You will get a full time worker/foreman for less of course and if they are local even less. Farmers might like working for little wage on their own place but it's hardly fair to expect someone employed to, do the cows need less hours put in when milks in low 20's vs high 30's? Partnership type set-up maybe best option for the Op.

Sam Kade

_Brian wrote: »

Sorry, I know nothing of forestry, but after year 40 do you not just start again 😳

Yes once you start planting you have to keep it in trees but when you replant you do it out of your own pocket without premiums.

Buford T. Justice XIX

keep going wrote: »

Surprised noone has mentioned a partnership with a land resricted dairy farmer, depending on what suits you may have to invest in some infrastructure but it would leave you with options in the future

Yeah, that's the option that struck me when I read the OP. The farm would be well looked after as it would be in his interest to have as much grass growing on it as possible.

OP, the other option would be a young farmer partnership where the partner would be doing the majority of the work but building up equity for himself in the form of stock and you would still have a working, viable farm to come back to in the future if that's what you want and your father could still be as involved as much as he can/wants in the future.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Sam Kade wrote: »

Yes once you start planting you have to keep it in trees but when you replant you do it out of your own pocket without premiums.

That rule is changed now, I think, Sam.

There isn't an obligation to replant after harvest anymore with forestry planted in the last few years, it can be returned to farmland if the owner wants to. Older forestry is still obliged to be returned to forestry again.

onrail

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Yeah, that's the option that struck me when I read the OP. The farm would be well looked after as it would be in his interest to have as much grass growing on it as possible.

OP, the other option would be a young farmer partnership where the partner would be doing the majority of the work but building up equity for himself in the form of stock and you would still have a working, viable farm to come back to in the future if that's what you want and your father could still be as involved as much as he can/wants in the future.

Any information or links on the ins and outs of this? Was planning to start into a partnership setup with the auld fella in the next year or so, but am ruling nothing out

pedigree 6

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Believe me that is firmly at the bottom end of the scale for a farmmanager to expect. You will get a full time worker/foreman for less of course and if they are local even less. Farmers might like working for little wage on their own place but it's hardly fair to expect someone employed to, do the cows need less hours put in when milks in low 20's vs high 30's? Partnership type set-up maybe best option for the Op.

Another poster mentioned 45k.
I was at the Greenfield open day a few years ago and teagasc were launching the farm manager course and they were saying when the course was finished the graduates could/should expect a wage of 45k.

_Brian

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Another poster mentioned 45k.
I was at the Greenfield open day a few years ago and teagasc were launching the farm manager course and they were saying when the course was finished the graduates could/should expect a wage of 45k.

Teagasc say a lot of guff though, was listening to the whole "liquid white gold" ****e about milk for two years before quotas ended, they got that a bit wrong.

How many people are on these courses and how many farms can carry a graduate manager getting €45k ?? I've hired enough college graduates to know that they are very knowledgeable but wholeheartedly innocent in the actual working environment and their capability around decision making would be low. Putting them in as a manager maybe over 2 or 3 other workers would be highly risky.

Maybe after 5-10 years experience after college they would command that sort of money but not as graduates.

Waffletraktor

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Another poster mentioned 45k.
I was at the Greenfield open day a few years ago and teagasc were launching the farm manager course and they were saying when the course was finished the graduates could/should expect a wage of 45k.

It shoots up depending on experience/responsibility, at the wage quoted + perks your at that figure easily or pay higher wage like you quoted but easier to find expenses to claim back for the farm iykwim.