Two Irish sisters used to be brothers

drunkmonkey

What it does make me wonder is what is Katherine Zappone is doing as Minister for children, a feminist lesbian steering policy makes me shudder. I would love to here her 50cent on this.

drunkmonkey

Ohbethehokey wrote: »

Well there you go...

I wasn't expecting it, I had a picture in my head of a distraught mum and dad.
I'm pretty relived to be honest.

Ohbethehokey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I wasn't expecting it, I had a picture in my head of a distraught mum and dad.
I'm pretty relived to be honest.

It certainly opens up the nature vs nurture debate

sunny2004

I feel when reading these stories that its not PC to say is anyone considering that there might be deep rooted issues with some of these people. It's as if in todays society its not OK to question the reasons behind the decisions.

Jimmy Bottlehead

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just to add a little context here, their mum is a single Lesbian so the 2 boys didn't exactly have a normal upbringing and it looks like genetics and environment are at play.

Gay parents do not equal gay or trans children.

My own take on this is that there was a genetic predisposition toward being transgender, and their (presumably) more accepting and enlightened upbringing allowed them the mental and social support to make a decision which was truthful to themselves.

For these individuals to either do it for the lols or simply self-deny due to shame would be equally tragic; I am glad we have a society which is growing to be as accepting of an individual as ours is becoming. The notion of gender and self-identification is a very personal aspect for a person and the road to self-acceptance and truth is not always straightforward.

As for the above admonishment for their commendations, I believe the commendations are due to their willingness to be public about it and bring to light a topic which is not hugely mainstream and rather misunderstood. It does take bravery to do that, and I'd wish them well in doing so.

Jawgap

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Gay parents do not equal gay or trans children.

My own take on this is that there was a genetic predisposition toward being transgender, and their (presumably) more accepting and enlightened upbringing allowed them the mental and social support to make a decision which was truthful to themselves.

For these individuals to either do it for the lols or simply self-deny due to shame would be equally tragic; I am glad we have a society which is growing to be as accepting of an individual as ours is becoming. The notion of gender and self-identification is a very personal aspect for a person and the road to self-acceptance and truth is not always straightforward.

As for the above admonishment for their commendations, I believe the commendations are due to their willingness to be public about it and bring to light a topic which is not hugely mainstream and rather misunderstood. It does take bravery to do that, and I'd wish them well in doing so.

given the nature of the procedure I think it's more important we question and question again such decisions, long before we get anywhere near commending them.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Jawgap wrote: »

given the nature of the procedure I think it's more important we question and question again such decisions, long before we get anywhere near commending them.

Questioning it for the purpose of ascertaining whether the condition is present is fine, and is what the current DSM provides for.

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

TheExile1878

I'm concerned that people here seem to think being the only girl in a family of boys - or vice versa - is enough to make one transgender!!!

Surely the biological imperative would be known long before.

Such ignorance. Concerning.

TheExile1878

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just to add a little context here, their mum is a single Lesbian so the 2 boys didn't exactly have a normal upbringing and it looks like genetics and environment are at play.

You appear to be confusing context with bigotry.

Or perhaps you have an explanation as to why a friend of mine is gay, yet was born to straight parents, his brother and sisters are similarly straight.

drunkmonkey

TheExile1878 wrote: »

I'm concerned that people here seem to think being the only girl in a family of boys - or vice versa - is enough to make one transgender!!!

Surely the biological imperative would be known long before.

Such ignorance. Concerning.

You seem to think that environment can have 0 influence on a person. That's a very closed mindset and to trot out shouting biggots to anyone that doesn't agree makes you the biggot not us.

Jawgap

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Questioning it for the purpose of ascertaining whether the condition is present is fine, and is what the current DSM provides for.

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

I'd see that as a clinical question. Plus from my limited understanding the fact that the word 'fluid' attaches to the discussion leads me to wonder whether a permanent solution is the best solution to a 'fluid' situation - the tide is fluid, it goes in and it goes out.

As a parent I'm more interested in the seeing that the best interests of my child(ren) are served, so even if they did 'verbalise' their desires and there was a clinical opinion that the condition was present, the first thing I'd do is the follow the advice of a good friend of mine who is a doctor and get a second opinion.

That same doctor is forever describing how diagnoses are being defined and re-defined all the time - which he doesn't mind, but it's the broadening of diagnoses that gets him quite animated - everything it seems has to be on a spectrum or a manifestation of a syndrome.

In some cases, in my uneducated view, it's just teenagers being teenagers and doing what we all did - exploring and experimenting to figure out the sense of self. Except now they have clinical pegs to hang this behaviour on and 'treatments' to address it, some of which are, it has to be said, quite radical.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Last Wednesday on a discussion about gender fluidity on Sky News (the pledge?) one of the panellist remarked about a phase in your youth where she wanted to be a boy because she had all brothers. She was worried by the possibility that someone going through phase today would be signed up for counselling and or going through clinical treatments for gender dysfunction.

Pat Mustard

Link from pubmed

Transgender patients seek medical treatment to change external appearances to correspond to their gender identification. Environment may have a role in the manifestation of the condition and the personal choices about the priority the situation may take in a specific individual's life. Gender identity, however, reflects neither environment nor postnatal sex steroid hormone levels. Rather, gender identity is fixed. The stated gender identity of most adults can be taken at face value.

Wibbs

Camille Paglia has made a similar observation(in reply to CB).

iguana

Wibbs wrote: »

Hmmm, this is going to be interesting. One the one side we have the "gender is a social construct and not really real" opinions, t'other side holds the opposite view. And both tend to come from the "progressive camp".

Why does it have to be one or the other? Gender is real and there are differences between men and women beyond the obvious differences of our physical bodies. There are certain traits more commonly found in men and some more commonly found in women. However those differences are not as enormous as many of our social and commercial norms imply. Boys can like pink and dolls, girls can like rough-housing and physical sports. There is nothing inherently male about construction toys and the Avengers, there is nothing inherently female about ballet and My Little Pony. There is nothing inherently male about not liking to dress up your appearance and nothing inherently female about eye-liner. Etc, etc.

Pushing children down particular avenues of interest because of their gender can and does lead to confusion about their gender and who they should really be. I have met many girls who wished to be boys as small children. Not because they were in the wrong body (as it was a wish they grew out of past puberty) but because they were told that so many of their interests were only for boys. I've not met any boys who wished to be girls for the same reasons, but I'm sure they too exist. I've read some interviews with parents of transgender children who have said that they knew their son was meant to be a girl at 18 months because he always chose pink sparkly toys. Which is a completely social construct that means nothing about a child's gender identity. That doesn't mean that there aren't some people who are genuinely mentally the opposite gender than that which they were born. But it is something to be careful about as a parent.

I allow my son to openly love and enjoy anything that takes his interest. He's just 3.5 and has no idea that there are 'girl toys' and 'boy toys' or 'girl cartoons' and 'boy cartoons.' His favourite things are cars and super/action heroes but he also enjoys ball, biking, Lego, books, My Little Pony, Frozen, dolls, his play kitchen, etc. And within reason I'll buy him any toy he likes. This way he is not likely to ever feel he should be female for more superficial reasons. So if one day he comes to me and tells me he wants to be a girl, I'll have good reason to believe it's because he really should have been born that way.

Wibbs

iguana wrote: »

I allow my son to openly love and enjoy anything that takes his interest. He's just 3.5 and has no idea that there are 'girl toys' and 'boy toys' or 'girl cartoons' and 'boy cartoons.' His favourite things are cars and super/action heroes but he also enjoys ball, biking, Lego, books, My Little Pony, Frozen, dolls, his play kitchen, etc. And within reason I'll buy him any toy he likes. This way he is not likely to ever feel he should be female for more superficial reasons. So if one day he comes to me and tells me he wants to be a girl, I'll have good reason to believe it's because he really should have been born that way.

How do you know you're not influencing his choices because of your feelings on the matter? Genuine question I. These things can be subtle, just as subtle as pink for girls, guns for boys. BTW to be clear I, I am not saying this is a bad thing or anything, but it is I feel a good question.

screamer

I don't know how id feel as a parent until faced with such a situation. What I do worry about is that there is such focus on choices etc and little scrutiny in underlying things like body dysmorphia etc. It is such an irreversible process I would definitely want to make sure any child of mine was fully evaluated in every way possible before undergoing such surgery.

drunkmonkey

You don't have any say once they turn 18 though, am I correct in thinking that?

There's a lot on the net about people regretting the operation as it doesn't give them what they expected. I'm not convinced surgery should be on the table, not sure what the criteria is in Ireland but the UK you have to be 2 years living as a woman to qualify any of the people who regretted the decision say that's not enough.

Wibbs

drunkmonkey wrote: »

any of the people who regretted the decision say that's not enough.

To be fair D, those who regret the decision aren't a good metric to judge by. Unless of course the make up a majority, but I've not seen any hard numbers that show even close to that. If there are any good long term studies on transgender folks that show a leaning either way I'm all ears, but until then...

Olishi4

I hope that in the OP, the siblings have been given the correct advice and the best outcome for their wellbeing and they are both content. I would be lying though if the thought hadn't entered my mind that perhaps one could be influencing the other or there could be some kind of codependent relationship between the two. In saying that, there is just as likely the case that they just happen to be both genuinely transgender and it seems that is what the experts have concluded.

I do remember watching an interview with a trans woman from Thailand a good few years ago and I remember it only vaguely but I do remember thinking that it had never occurred to me before that an incentive could make someone decide to undergo this transformation rather than a biological imperative. This trans woman openly admitted in interview that that they were neither gay, nor transgender, but did it because of no schooling and a possible form of income. I think that it also made them exempt from conscription to the military. Im not sure how common this is in Thailand and it was just one person but it's possible there are more that take this route. In fairness, I'm also not sure if they got correct assistance or how far they had gone in their transformation. It could have been that they had bought hormones from the black market.

Nothing to do with the OP but just the nurture vs nature argument, I remember watching a very upsetting doc years ago about the Reimer twins in Canada where a circumcision went wrong in one twin and the parents were advised by an expert doctor at the time (i think it was the 60s) to raise him as a girl and he went through the full procedure and transformation. Throughout the years, the doctor documented it as a success through bias for his belief that nurture could determine gender alone and I think this instance was used as justification for similar circumstances for a time. However it was not successful and the twins life was ruined. He began living as a man but unfortunately committed suicide some years later. You could also argue that it is just as tragic for anyone who feels trapped in the wrong body from birth so it's important that people are being understood and listened too.

I don't want to sound like I am only highlighting negatives because there are so many transgender people that absolutely are positive with their transformation and needed it and should be respected with their choices. It's just that there are possibilities that sometimes the experts can get it wrong and there is a possibility there could be some other underlying issue that is missed. This is, I guess, the fear that a parent would face like the op states. Not that they wouldn't support the choices of their child or their childs ultimate needs but worry that there is a chance they could support the wrong choice and I can't imagine that any parent wouldn't have that concern. It's a very difficult thing to be faced with for all involved.

Calahonda52

Zaph wrote: »

... and there's a lot of psychological assessment and preparation beforehand. I sincerely doubt that you'd find a surgeon willing to carry out the surgery if they believed it was something being done on a whim.

Knowing what I do about the HSE, psychological assessment ( paid for both privately and by the State), and the 1999 scheme that supports these processes, I don't think I agree with that piece of your statement.

I agree the OP focus on how he/she might feel as a parent misses the point somewhat.

I just skimmed the Sun article:

“It sounds dramatic but I’m trying to undo the wrong that was done to me at birth and I don’t need any reminders of the struggle of having to carry this male body.”

So wronged at birth => a victim from birth, which the taxpayer has to pay for.

I wonder what Darwin would make of all this, it's a long way from the Galápagos Islands

Keep well.

line console zero

Wronged at birth indeed. Born into a perfectly healthy body they should consider themselves lucky.

A person can pretend to be what they want to be, I don't care. I would not treat someone different in the workplace for example, if they were trans. However I consider their condition to be a body dysmorphic disorder. This is what should be treated. Instead we feed into their disorder by going along with their fantasy, which enables it and builds them up for a future mental catastrophe.

Anorexia is another body dysmorphic disorder, where a person genuinely believes they are overwieght when in fact they are the opposite. Should we also go along with anorexic people and pretend that they are fat and encourage them in their transition to being skinny?

iguana

Wibbs wrote: »

How do you know you're not influencing his choices because of your feelings on the matter? Genuine question I. These things can be subtle, just as subtle as pink for girls, guns for boys. BTW to be clear I, I am not saying this is a bad thing or anything, but it is I feel a good question.

First off, there is nothing subtle about pink for girls, guns for boys. That's something that has grown far worse than it was during my childhood. Presumably because it's extremely profitable for companies to sell two of everything to parents who have a child of each gender.

As for the rest of your question. All parents influence their children both consciously and unconsciously. For example, my son would never know he loves going on his bike if I Santa hadn't given him a bike. When it comes to the toys/media he likes/loves I've tried very hard to allow him to enjoy what takes his fancy but while he came to a love of superheroes on his own, once he did it was something that I and my husband have almost certainly influenced as we both love that genre. But despite that he still drives his own interest for the most part. I've introduced him to some superheroes I hope he'll enjoy but he doesn't take to them and some of his favourites are ones I dislike. But obviously from his perspective the fact that his parents are genuinely excited by one of his interests is going to have an effect on him whether we want it to or not. Though he still loves all sorts of things that I find boring/baffling like Angry Birds and most of the traditional Disney stuff.

Clearlier

line console zero wrote: »

Wronged at birth indeed. Born into a perfectly healthy body they should consider themselves lucky.

A person can pretend to be what they want to be, I don't care. I would not treat someone different in the workplace for example, if they were trans. However I consider their condition to be a body dysmorphic disorder. This is what should be treated. Instead we feed into their disorder by going along with their fantasy, which enables it and builds them up for a future mental catastrophe.

Anorexia is another body dysmorphic disorder, where a person genuinely believes they are overwieght when in fact they are the opposite. Should we also go along with anorexic people and pretend that they are fat and encourage them in their transition to being skinny?

The treatment for gender dysphoria is transition and far from building them up for a future mental catastrophe it dramatically reduces their risk of attempting suicide.

You might find this interesting to read. It breaks down the statistic that 40% of transgender people attempt suicide. One of the more interesting points made is that the risk of suicide reverts to that of the general population for transgender people who 'pass' and are accepted as their gender in everyday life.

intheclouds

line console zero wrote: »

Wronged at birth indeed. Born into a perfectly healthy body they should consider themselves lucky.

A person can pretend to be what they want to be, I don't care. I would not treat someone different in the workplace for example, if they were trans. However I consider their condition to be a body dysmorphic disorder. This is what should be treated. Instead we feed into their disorder by going along with their fantasy, which enables it and builds them up for a future mental catastrophe.

Anorexia is another body dysmorphic disorder, where a person genuinely believes they are overwieght when in fact they are the opposite. Should we also go along with anorexic people and pretend that they are fat and encourage them in their transition to being skinny?

If there was a way to change their brain rather than their body so that their mental image of gender matched their physical would you accept that? Is it just the physical change you have an issue with? You seem to suggest that we should simply allow trans people to suffer so that we don't go along with a fantasy. So what is your solution to this?

If we "go along" with anorexic people they die. If we "go along" with trans people they live. I suspect the greater good is served by helping people rather than alienating them further?

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would bring you an heir and carry on the family

It seems when replying to you that many users here have taken you up on the trans issue. So to take a slightly different approach I think I would take you up on this one. I have a son now - 2 years old - and I have no such hopes or expectations.

My goal is to have a son who is happy. And unless his source of happiness turns out to be a detriment to anyone else's - such as him turning out to be a killer or rapist for example - then it is completely irrelevant to me where he derives his happiness from.

If his happiness involves his own procreation - and the longevity of my family - then I will revel in that with him. But I neither expect it - hope for it - nor intent to influence it.

And if his happiness involves changing gender - being homosexual - changing gender and _then_ being homosexual - living in a cave alone for 20 years without speaking - or anything else you might stereo-typically reject as being against what a father would hope for - then I am good with that too.

So I would re-write your sentence "As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would bring you an heir and carry on the family" as perhaps "As a dad you'd hope your son or sons would get through life being generally happy - and impact the happiness of others as little as possible".

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Any other dads concerned that it's all becoming a bit to easy and glamorous to be trans, panty made it to time magazine

Is panty trans? I thought Panty was a drag queen. I never knew! I learn something new here every day a thread gets going.

But no as a parent I am not that scared at all. Because there are some decisions no one makes simply on a whim. And I would like to live in a world where they can make the decisions they need to. And a world where the glamour serves to make it OK to be one of the people who makes it.

Contributor 2013

In the great words of someone much older and wiser than the majority of the boards members.

"So, What!?"

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I like to think my own child has more ambition than attempted infamy for entirely mundane reasons.

The wording here is in risk of making it sound like you think people change gender for mundane reasons - or as an attempt to gain infamy.

Probably not what you meant - but it reads that way.

Declan Inexpensive Toad

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

With all the advantages afforded to men in life

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

But I haven't been brainwashed into thinking my appearance is all that matters

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

I don't know how people become so absorbed by such a small facet of existence - gender

I am genuinely curious now. Why do you think people feel the need to change their physical gender? The way you describe it above it sounds like a fashion statement - or some expression to the outside world.

Declan Inexpensive Toad wrote: »

Like, their belief that they weren't born the correct gender. It's not nature that makes them think that, it's the nurture aspect of their lives

How sure are you of that? And why?

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The wording here is in risk of making it sound like you think people change gender for mundane reasons - or as an attempt to gain infamy.

Probably not what you meant - but it reads that way.

Ahh no tax, definitely not what I intended anyway. I meant something similar to I think it was Sleepy earlier who put it better in that I would hope my child would aim to be recognised for their achievements rather than gaining national attention because of their sexual or gender identity, which to me personally aren't and shouldn't be seen as something worthy of national recognition.

If I had really wanted to be a pedant, I would have pointed out in your own post that the sisters concerned aren't changing their gender, they were always female. They've come to national attention in the media because of the fact that they intend to change their sex.