Employee's constantly unhappy.

Hollister11

This is for my dad**

My dad is a project manager at a small construction company.

One of his crews is 3 east european lads. They earn good money, but constantly complain about being underpaid. They have had 2 pay increases in 2 years, while also receiving a bonus at Christmas, for the last 3 years.

My dad treats them well. If they work on Saturday they get extra (An extra 10/20 on top of their wages). If they are needed for 6 hours on a Saturday, they are paid for 8. They always take a little extra, but will never give a little extra. For example, working hours are 7:30 to 3:30. They often start late, and finish early.

A couple of times, if my dad left to go to another site, or get materials ect, they would quite often leave at 3, and deny it if my dad approached them on it.
He actually saw one of them driving home early, when he was on his way back to the job.

My dad is quite annoyed by this, as they even said a few weeks ago, there very angry with there wages, but the company are reluctant to increase pay for the third year in a row. They stayed open during the recession, keeping everyone in a job, despite making quite heavy losses. They are back in profitability now, and are re-investing profits in the business.

Any advice ?

brightspark

How well paid are they compared to other similar jobs?

I have heard a manager say once that employees will always complain about money so no point in paying much!

As regards the Saturday money, it seems poor, historically Saturday's used to be paid time and a half for the first four hours and double time after that, so six hours should get about ten hours pay.

But what should concern your father is if they left could he hire workers of the same or better skill levels at the same rate?

Hollister11

brightspark wrote: »

How well paid are they compared to other similar jobs?

I have heard a manager say once that employees will always complain about money so no point in paying much!

As regards the Saturday money, it seems poor, historically Saturday's used to be paid time and a half for the first four hours and double time after that, so six hours should get about ten hours pay.

But what should concern your father is if they left could he hire workers of the same or better skill levels at the same rate?

I have never got extra on Saturdays. Sundays less, but Saturday has always been seen as standard pay.

He could, but there out the door with jobs at the moment, and they can't risk sacking employees, and going through the recruitment process again.

doolox

This is what I was told by my boss many years ago when I worked for a large multinational and some of the staff were not satisfied with their lot. It would appear that the lads need to find out what they would earn elsewhere. It might be that they are very good at their jobs and the issue with them starting late and leaving early, while annoying is not the crunch issue. Are they better than average at their jobs? Are there any customer issues re: quality and stuff done on time and to the right specs??

IF your dad can get at least one tradesman to replace one of the Poles, (He may have to get three to replace three if they stick together and all quit) then he should try that and see what happens.Of course he will have to get the company owners sanction and approval to do this.

It might be that if the better of the three Poles sees the least performing one dropped and replaced they might knuckle down and do their jobs properly without complaint. The danger is throwing a new non-pole into the mix, the other two might gang up and make the new guy unwelcome and make his work impossible to do in an effective way. There might be no alternative to a clean sweep and start afresh with a completely new crew, depending on the scarcity and complexity of their work and structure of their team.

doolox

Construction, what type? It's good to be "out the door" with jobs to do. In this case I'm afraid the three Poles are indispensable..........for the moment.

brightspark

Hollister11 wrote: »

I have never got extra on Saturdays. Sundays less, but Saturday has always been seen as standard pay.

He could, but there out the door with jobs at the moment, and they can't risk sacking employees, and going through the recruitment process again.

The issue isn't whether you have ever got extra pay for Saturdays, but whether they would get paid more than they are currently getting elsewhere.


Edit.
(I sometimes work Saturdays for nothing extra, but insist on another day off instead, but I value my time off more than any overtime pay)

davo10

If they feel they are being underpaid, wouldn't they be working somewhere else? Either they are being paid the going rate or there aren't jobs elsewhere for them, so it would seem they are being paid what they are worth in today's market.

Hollister11

davo10 wrote: »

If they feel they are being underpaid, wouldn't they be working somewhere else? Either they are being paid the going rate or there aren't jobs elsewhere for them, so it would seem they are being paid what they are worth in today's market.

There on €110, for 8 hours including half hour paid lunch.

davo10

Hollister11 wrote: »

There on €110, for 8 hours including half hour paid lunch.

€550 gross per week for 5 days? I'm not surprised they are unhappy.

Hollister11

davo10 wrote: »

€550 gross per week for 5 days? I'm not surprised they are unhappy.

How much do you think they should be on. There only labourers. I done for the summer, and while its hard, its not generally a well paid job.

davo10

Hollister11 wrote: »

How much do you think they should be on. There only labourers. I done for the summer, and while its hard, its not generally a well paid job.

It's not up to me to say what they should be on, the market sets the rate. What is market rate for a labourer?

Mrs OBumble

The only factor that's relevant here is what they would make working elsewhere, and how replaceable they are.

Some people will grizzle no matter what they're paid.

OP - there's an entrepreneurship and business management forum, which might be a better place for this question.

One thing to note though, is that they cannot simply fire anyone. As employees, they have rights and to get rid of one / all of them there would have to have specific disciplinary action taken.

uck51js9zml2yt

http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Construction_Laborer/Hourly_Rate

An average of €11 per hour so 13.75 is above average and a good wage.
Honestly , if it were me I'd give them the choice to leave. No payrise and if you're not happy you can leave. If you stay , these are the conditions.

Hollister11

davo10 wrote: »

It's not up to me to say what they should be on, the market sets the rate. What is market rate for a labourer?

The average pay is €11.36 a hour, so for a 40 hour working week, they should be on €454.40 gross. There getting paid almost 100 quid more, and there lunch time is included in the paid week.

http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Construction_Laborer/Hourly_Rate

Ohbethehokey

Divide and conquer. I'd be looking for the quickest wwsy to shift one of them out and change the dynamics. Start warnings for being late /leaving early.Remove the ringleader if possible.

h2005

How good are they at what they do? Labourers at that wage shouldn't be hard to find?

gifted

Hollister11 wrote: »

How much do you think they should be on. There only labourers. I done for the summer, and while its hard, its not generally a well paid job.

:eek: Is there something wrong with being a labourer on a building site?

hawkwind23

5 minutes late and leaving 5 mins early isnt a big deal on a site.
What work are they doing?
Are they being left alone without supervision and getting all the work done? No complaints about them etc? Trades all happy with their work?
Labourers can be some of the hardest working on a site , a thankless job and treated like shyte by some of the team who think they are above them. Yet in many ways they get the most done.

As in all cases its hard to call or judge without knowing the full facts and hearing all sides to the story.

As far as minimum wage goes , big difference doing semi skilled hard labour compared to some sedentary type min wage jobs.
Esp for a small builder as they tend to a wide range of work thats needing done.

Littlehorny

I have worked on the buildings most of my adult life and as an old timer once told me about asking for a pay rise- "if you look for more money and you don't get it, you better be ready to walk". Tell those 3 lads to start looking for work somewhere else, because 90% of us in the construction game lost our jobs in the recession, so they don't know how lucky they are.

duffman13

gifted wrote: »

:eek: Is there something wrong with being a labourer on a building site?

I don't think the OP meant there is anything wrong with it, more that it is unskilled position which can be replaced easily unless these guys are exceptional at there jobs.

Very simple one for me is have a talk an explain the working hours and wages aren't going to change. If they are unhappy then they can leave, if they want to stay and the behaviours don't change then start going formal. They need a shake up.

marymary1984

Maybe they need to be managed better. Possibly they should know better but have they been efficiently managed? Are they aware of their expectations ( i.e start time and finish time) - in other words are they pulled up on this. If manager is there at 9.30 and workers are not there , it's difficult to dispute this when you stroll in late.
Sometimes a string manager will fix minor issues. However, 5 minutes either side is nothing- if they know their job and are decent it's much more important. Sometimes you don't know what you got till its gone! I'd recommend to leave it be and just be a bit more firm. A lot of useless employees out there with no initiative!

Hollister11

gifted wrote: »

:eek: Is there something wrong with being a labourer on a building site?

Where did I say there was something wrong ?

ArnieSilvia

It would be helpful if you described what these people do as "labourer" can mean a lot. Surely there was a reason why these people were left in the company after others were laid off? Are they showing a lot of incentive at work? Are they capable of doing smaller jobs that you would have to call tradesmen to do otherwise?

Also, assuming these people work and live in Dublin, there won't be much left from these wages after paying Dublin rents (currently 1.5k a month in suburbs)

hawkwind23

hawkwind23 wrote: »

5 minutes late and leaving 5 mins early isnt a big deal on a site.
What work are they doing?
Are they being left alone without supervision and getting all the work done? No complaints about them etc? Trades all happy with their work?
Labourers can be some of the hardest working on a site , a thankless job and treated like shyte by some of the team who think they are above them. Yet in many ways they get the most done.

As in all cases its hard to call or judge without knowing the full facts and hearing all sides to the story.

As far as minimum wage goes , big difference doing semi skilled hard labour compared to some sedentary type min wage jobs.
Esp for a small builder as they tend to a wide range of work thats needing done.

OP, install a biometric clocking system. Ten minutes lost per employee every day adds up fast - at €14.00 per hour for three its about €2,200.00 per year.

Morgans

I certainly wouldn't class labouring as minimum wage work, but I don't know the going rate.

However, I don't see characterising what they get as earning 'good money', and this was after two pay rises. Whatever the case is, they can leave if they want. And if work is out the door in the company, to keep them and not go through the messy recruitment issues, you pay them a pay rise. If not, dont expect them to stop trying to leave early or come in a little late when they can.

gifted

Hollister11 wrote: »

Where did I say there was something wrong ?

I never said you did, that's why I asked you if there was. By saying that they are ONLY labourers is implying that their work is not important and hence they are not important.

Every member on a building site is part of a team, regardless of how skilled they are. Any project manager would know that. Without your team you have nothing. If your dad has issues with certain members of his team then he needs to do something about it. Talk to the owner, highlight the problem, root out the problem and move on.

nikkibikki

They are complaining about money because they got more the last 2years when they did. Tell them no more in the pot, they'll be supported if they feel they need to change jobs, they'll be provided with references.

Plus, the guy who lied about leaving early should be furnished with a warning, vebal or written, whichever is appropriate.

Xterminator

Crosby Ripe Cardboard wrote: »

http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Construction_Laborer/Hourly_Rate
if it were me I'd give them the choice to leave. No payrise and if you're not happy you can leave. If you stay , these are the conditions.

in the real world they can stay, be even less happy and not be very productive.
Ultimatum's can backfire.

Johner

davo10 wrote: »

€550 gross per week for 5 days? I'm not surprised they are unhappy.

Seem's a pretty decent wage for labouring I'd have thought.

uck51js9zml2yt

Xterminator wrote: »

in the real world they can stay, be even less happy and not be very productive.
Ultimatum's can backfire.

Nikki was more diplomatic in her reply:)

mahoganygas

Did you try offering them a 52% pay rise?

uck51js9zml2yt

mahoganygas wrote: »

Did you try offering them a 52% pay rise?

You're confusing them with luas drivers:rolleyes:

nikkibikki

Johner wrote:

Seem's a pretty decent wage for labouring I'd have thought.

It is. Qualified tradespeople aren't even on that in lots of places.

posturingpat

Jaysus 550 for 5 days work from 7.30 to 3.30. These boys don't know how good they have it.
I quit my job at the start of the year and before i found a new permanent position a pal of mine got me the odd day labouring with him. We generally worked form 8 to half 4 or 5 but had 1 1/2 to 2 hours on the road in both the morning and the evening and were getting paid 100 a day and i felt that was very fair, my friend who had gotten me the few days work is basically a carpenter and can do a spot of blocklaying and plumbing too so is as skilled a labourer as you're likely to come across just doesn't have the papers and he says it's a very fair wage so these boys seem to just be moaners.

Irish_Elect_Eng

OP, you say that your father has several crews.

Rather than fire one or more of them, could he not simply mix up the crews spreading the three of the out over three different crews.

callaway92

Hollister11 wrote: »

A couple of times, if my dad left to go to another site, or get materials ect, they would quite often leave at 3, and deny it if my dad approached them on it.

Does this company not even have foremen on site to stop these people who I'd assume are groundsmen/labourers leaving?

the_pen_turner

what kind of work are these men doing.

who are they labouring for. surely the person the are labouring for has some insight into whats going on .

callaway92

the_pen_turner wrote: »

what kind of work are these men doing.

who are they labouring for. surely the person the are labouring for has some insight into whats going on .

Yeah, it's such a bizarre thread in fairness.

Actually, my god. The OP creates an unreal amount of strange threads.

screamer

Are they paid 110 in the hand every day? Our labourers are we pick up tax prsi etc.

TBH there is a militancy coming back into the construction industry again and unions are wratcheting up the anti too. just look at poolbeg yesterday.

BUT there's a huge move away from employees as a result in the industry in general so the unions will soon be out of subs and out of business. We now only take on people on self employed basis. It's better too as the nature of construction is transient and different to other industries. I'd look into self employed crews OP.

Nody

//MOD

Closed on request of OP who feels they have enough information going forward.

//MOD