Is Rugby Sevens actually just crap?

Richard Hillman

The importance of sevens has been highlighted over the last couple of years with the Olympics coming up. A lot of well known players are switching to sevens for the shot at the Olympics.

Over the last couple of years I have been flicking it on Tv and lose interest quickly after a player strolls over the try line for the 5th time in 3 minutes, to the applause of an old man, his dog and 3 lads in fancy dress.

I love rugby. I watch both Union and League. This is not rugby though. The scoring is frivelous and excessive. The 5 people in the crowd don't even care. There is barely a ripple of applause when a team scores their 8th try in 10 minutes.

Imagine watching a game of 5 aside football, on a full sized pitch, with Vauxhall Conference standard players and there is a goal every 40 seconds. It sounds like crap, and that is exactly what sevens is.

Now that I have annoyed the all 5 of rugby sevens global fandom, I will annoy everybody else by saying Rugby Sevens is crap.....Discuss?

Guy:Incognito

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I love rugby. I watch both Union and League.

Theres your issue right there. Maybe some sort of bloodsport would have been a better 3rd option for you to add, its the natural progression from league.:)

ArmaniJeanss

Watching a cracking game between NZ and USA whilst reading this.

NiallBoo

If you like watching something as turgid as league then sevens isn't for you.

I'm guessing you also did the aviva premiership watchable?

All in all, don't worry about it.

Guy:Incognito

Just realised who the OP is. Which other sports shall you be calling in to question today?

pickarooney

It's grand to watch a 5 minute highlights package from a 7s weekend and it's probably a bit of fun if you're there but other than that it's kind of repetitive and I quickly get bored of it.

ArmaniJeanss

Attendances can look sparse alright and a London crowd isn't likely to be too interested in a shield/plate game between Canada and Portugal. So if you switch on whilst such a game is happening then it can be a tough watch.

Its a long day and as I understand it people pick and choose games to watch, then wander for something to eat, go to the commercial stalls etc. So you can't really compare crowds directly to the 80 minute game where generally the entire crowd will be there for the whole game.
Attendances can be hit and miss - USA got 80,000 cumulative this year, whilst other events (Scotland) got dropped due to poor attendances.
Its an ongoing development finding the correct circuit.

One massive thing it has going for it imo is that there is no standout best team, if everything clicks on the weekend then a wide variety of teams can win.
This years 9 events have been won by NZ, Fiji, Samoa, South Africa and Kenya. England and the USA binked one last year.

Buer

In fairness, 7-a-side rugby, whilst it can be entertaining and fun to watch, is a bit crap. No country (that has the full game as their primary version) uses their best players or even guys who would be anywhere near the best. For example, I don't know a single player on the English squad when looking at the names. They're guys who couldn't make a career out of the 15 a side game for the most part.

It's a sideshow, really. The fact that it's now in the Olympics has elevated its status dramatically but it won't change the fact that the actual standard of rugby is not good.

clsmooth

Used to love it when you had the likes of Serevi and Vunibaka going up against Lomu and Eric Rush. They were the days..

Risteard

Yes.

Richard Hillman

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Just realised who the OP is. Which other sports shall you be calling in to question today?

Amateur boxing in the Olympics. Imagine having amateur tennis in the Olympics??? Ridiculous.

ArmaniJeanss

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Amateur boxing in the Olympics. Imagine having amateur tennis in the Olympics??? Ridiculous.

If it genuinely bothered you so much then I'm surprised you weren't aware they changed it. Professionals boxers are allowed now.

Podge_irl

It's fun to watch and I'd like to go to an event but it's not really rugby and I think it probably does very little in terms of player progression.

That said, it's refreshing to see the likes of Kenya being able to play it to a high level and the exposure rugby in general will get from 7s being in the Olympics can hardly hurt.

Dave_The_Sheep

Great aul final there between Scotland and South Africa, fair play to the Scots.

swiwi_

Mildly surreal thread given Ireland don't field a 7s team - I suppose the IRFU must also find 7s a bit crap. I wouldn't be the biggest fan - it's not as intricate as 15s, but much easier viewing for the non-rugby fan.

Some of the skills (off-loading, fast wings who score tries, keeping the ball in hand) could enhance the Irish XVs - in saying that Scotland scored a try from a rolling maul in the London 7s final, so maybe Ireland would be just fine...

I actually felt a tad Irish in the weekend, NZ getting their asses handed to them by a side from the Americas in the 1/4 final of a world tournament

Anyway, well done to Scotland for securing a piece of silverware.

As for the Olympics, it's a wide wide open field, the days of each tournament being a 2-horse race between Fiji and NZ are well gone.

athtrasna

I was at the Paris 7s last week for a day and actually decided I'd go for the full weekend next time. Some cracking rugby with an amazing atmosphere. Loved it!

The Lost Sheep

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The importance of sevens has been highlighted over the last couple of years with the Olympics coming up. A lot of well known players are switching to sevens for the shot at the Olympics.

Over the last couple of years I have been flicking it on Tv and lose interest quickly after a player strolls over the try line for the 5th time in 3 minutes, to the applause of an old man, his dog and 3 lads in fancy dress.

I love rugby. I watch both Union and League. This is not rugby though. The scoring is frivelous and excessive. The 5 people in the crowd don't even care. There is barely a ripple of applause when a team scores their 8th try in 10 minutes.

If sevens isn't rugby then what exactly is rugby? Yes there is lots of scores. Why is that bad? What is wrong with the higher number of scores and proportion of scores in a 7s compared to 15s?

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Attendances can look sparse alright and a London crowd isn't likely to be too interested in a shield/plate game between Canada and Portugal. So if you switch on whilst such a game is happening then it can be a tough watch.

Its a long day and as I understand it people pick and choose games to watch, then wander for something to eat, go to the commercial stalls etc. So you can't really compare crowds directly to the 80 minute game where generally the entire crowd will be there for the whole game.
Attendances can be hit and miss - USA got 80,000 cumulative this year, whilst other events (Scotland) got dropped due to poor attendances.
Its an ongoing development finding the correct circuit.

One massive thing it has going for it imo is that there is no standout best team, if everything clicks on the weekend then a wide variety of teams can win.
This years 9 events have been won by NZ, Fiji, Samoa, South Africa and Kenya. England and the USA binked one last year.

And that's a good thing. 7s is a festival day out. "Carnival" day out. Its a 6-8 hour affair in stadium compared to 2 for a one off 15s game so of course people will pick and choose games and they cant be compared.

Buer wrote: »

In fairness, 7-a-side rugby, whilst it can be entertaining and fun to watch, is a bit crap. No country (that has the full game as their primary version) uses their best players or even guys who would be anywhere near the best. For example, I don't know a single player on the English squad when looking at the names. They're guys who couldn't make a career out of the 15 a side game for the most part.

It's a sideshow, really. The fact that it's now in the Olympics has elevated its status dramatically but it won't change the fact that the actual standard of rugby is not good.

What makes it crap? That countries don't use their best 15s players doesn't mean the best players are not used. Their is a specialisation required as fitness levels and skill usage is quite different in the two games but that doesn't mean the standard of rugby is poor.

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's fun to watch and I'd like to go to an event but it's not really rugby and I think it probably does very little in terms of player progression.

That said, it's refreshing to see the likes of Kenya being able to play it to a high level and the exposure rugby in general will get from 7s being in the Olympics can hardly hurt.

If 7s is "not really rugby" then what exactly is rugby?

Nermal

Somehow both forms of the game manage to get the balance wrong. In 7s space is too easy to find, so too often the contest is between individuals rather than teams. In modern 15s there's just no space at all. If only there was a third way...

Mr.Nice Guy

I've watched it a couple of times and have found it fairly entertaining. I think after a while with so many games it can get dull, so I would favour a 'less is more' approach.

Podge_irl

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If 7s is "not really rugby" then what exactly is rugby?

XVs...

Just like 5-a side soccer is essentially a different sport.

The Lost Sheep

Podge_irl wrote: »

XVs...

Just like 5-a side soccer is essentially a different sport.

I don't think you c an say that. They are all varients of the one sport. That one is more widely played doesn't make it the real sport.

It should be played more often. There should be county/provincial and nationwide competitions at age grade level every season as well as at open grade adult level.

Buer

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What makes it crap? That countries don't use their best 15s players doesn't mean the best players are not used.

It doesn't mean the best players are not used but we all know the best players are not used.

There are stars on the English team that were average players at Championship level. I refuse to believe that guys like Christian Wade or Teimana Harrison wouldn't be far more potent weapons with a little exposure to Sevens. Similarly, Andrew Conway isn't in the Irish squad.

They're stars in the XV man game though and would be seen by most as wasted in the reduced version.

NiallBoo

Buer wrote: »

They're stars in the XV man game though and would be seen by most as wasted in the reduced version.

a catch 22 situation. The sport can't be a bigger deal because it doesn't have the best players and it didn't have the best players because it isn't a big deal.

Anyway, that's not something inherently wrong with the sport - which is what op was asking.

If you were view sevens as fundamentally flawed because of that then you could view rugby as flawed because young talented players sometimes choose to play other sports instead. Round and round we go.

The Lost Sheep

Buer wrote: »

It doesn't mean the best players are not used but we all know the best players are not used.

There are stars on the English team that were average players at Championship level. I refuse to believe that guys like Christian Wade or Teimana Harrison wouldn't be far more potent weapons with a little exposure to Sevens. Similarly, Andrew Conway isn't in the Irish squad.

They're stars in the XV man game though and would be seen by most as wasted in the reduced version.

Andrew Conway isn't in the irish squad but why should he? Being good at 15s doesn't mean you will be good at 7s.
Nucifora and coaches of 7s looked at some senior provincially contracted players but I take it its mainly the academy players and club players who are involved now

NiallBoo wrote: »

a catch 22 situation. The sport can't be a bigger deal because it doesn't have the best players and it didn't have the best players because it isn't a big deal.

Anyway, that's not something inherently wrong with the sport - which is what op was asking.

If you were view sevens as fundamentally flawed because of that then you could view rugby as flawed because young talented players sometimes choose to play other sports instead. Round and round we go.

+1

JPNelsforearm

Nermal wrote: »

Somehow both forms of the game manage to get the balance wrong. In 7s space is too easy to find, so too often the contest is between individuals rather than teams. In modern 15s there's just no space at all. If only there was a third way...

10's or 11's?

Braken

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

10's or 11's?

There is..the world club 10s. Is on in Mauritius in mid June...Toulon,Sarries etc

freyners

Nermal wrote: »

Somehow both forms of the game manage to get the balance wrong. In 7s space is too easy to find, so too often the contest is between individuals rather than teams. In modern 15s there's just no space at all. If only there was a third way...

Its called rugby league, see below an example :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6SkdNmu6n0

Podge_irl

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't think you c an say that. They are all varients of the one sport. That one is more widely played doesn't make it the real sport.

It should be played more often. There should be county/provincial and nationwide competitions at age grade level every season as well as at open grade adult level.

We're in danger of getting bogged down in semantics here, but fine, it's a variant of the sport that I have limited interest in and that I believe has very little connection to the most commonly played variant.

Richard Hillman

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If sevens isn't rugby then what exactly is rugby? Yes there is lots of scores. Why is that bad? What is wrong with the higher number of scores and proportion of scores in a 7s compared to 15s?

And that's a good thing. 7s is a festival day out. "Carnival" day out. Its a 6-8 hour affair in stadium compared to 2 for a one off 15s game so of course people will pick and choose games and they cant be compared.
What makes it crap? That countries don't use their best 15s players doesn't mean the best players are not used. Their is a specialisation required as fitness levels and skill usage is quite different in two games but that doesn't mean the standard of rugby is poor.

If 7s is "not really rugby" then what exactly is rugby?

It's a gane of British Bulldog except you can pass a ball to one of the runners and that is the only way you can get tagged.

The Rape of Lucretia

Yes, its a niche game. Nothing to do with rugby at all really. And not a very good one. Its relationship to rugby is like pitch-and-putt to golf.

Makes it perfect stuff for the cesspit of minor sports (and I use the term loosely), corruption, PEDs, nationalist jingoism, politics, overblown self importance, commercial overkill, result rigging, mickey mouse events that are decided by judges holding up numbers, assorted activities more akin to dancing or low grade arts, that is the emperor's new clothes of the Olympics.

rsh118

Just to warn you 15s only lads, 7s will be the 'world wide' version of sport. Just look at teams like Canada, Kenya etc competing with the big boys. And with a big audience comes bigger money over time.

Podge_irl

rsh118 wrote: »

Just to warn you 15s only lads, 7s will be the 'world wide' version of sport. Just look at teams like Canada, Kenya etc competing with the big boys. And with a big audience comes bigger money over time.

They're competing with the "big boys" in what is still a completely niche sport, even compared to XVs. The exposure from the Olympics will obviously help but there is no danger of 7s overtaking XVs any time in the next few decades and even then I doubt it.

rsh118

Just look at T20 vs Test cricket. Fewer and fewer people care outside the Ashes or some similar series. The format in which most nations can compete will always win.

Podge_irl

rsh118 wrote: »

Just look at T20 vs Test cricket. Fewer and fewer people care outside the Ashes or some similar series. The format in which most nations can compete will always win.

T20 is still, essentially, cricket and has the benefit of being much more TV friendly.

7s will only ever be played as part of weekend tournaments. There will never be the equivalent of test matches (or even league matches) were 20k+ people are going to see one match with multiple matches happening all over the place. Thus the appeal of it is intrinsically limited.

The Lost Sheep

Podge_irl wrote: »

We're in danger of getting bogged down in semantics here, but fine, it's a variant of the sport that I have limited interest in and that I believe has very little connection to the most commonly played variant.

I totally disagree that 7s has little connection to 15s. Skills, space all help with improving a players game in 15s.

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's a gane of British Bulldog except you can pass a ball to one of the runners and that is the only way you can get tagged.

Nonsense. Have you watched 7s??

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, its a niche game. Nothing to do with rugby at all really. And not a very good one. Its relationship to rugby is like pitch-and-putt to golf.

Makes it perfect stuff for the cesspit of minor sports (and I use the term loosely), corruption, PEDs, nationalist jingoism, politics, overblown self importance, commercial overkill, result rigging, mickey mouse events that are decided by judges holding up numbers, assorted activities more akin to dancing or low grade arts, that is the emperor's new clothes of the Olympics.

It has a lot to do with rugby and playing more 7s can totally aid a players 15s game in terms of skills development, working on attacking space

rsh118

I know from discussions with people higher up than myself that the RFU sees 7s as the variation most likely to get more people interested because it's less technical, faster, and has lots of tries. And it's a lot easier for somewhere like Azerbaijan to field 7 decent players than 15 exceptional specialised players in the correct positions. 7s will always do well, and is innately related to its if brother in the 15s game.

Podge_irl

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I totally disagree that 7s has little connection to 15s. Skills, space all help with improving a players game in 15s.

Fair enough. I don't think the passing and running at space in 7s is particularly transferable to the confines of the 15 man game. I think some excellent rugby players have played and excelled in 7s at a young age because they were exceptional players. I don't think actually playing 7s is what made them excellent rugby players.

Podge_irl

rsh118 wrote: »

I know from discussions with people higher up than myself that the RFU sees 7s as the variation most likely to get more people interested because it's less technical, faster, and has lots of tries. And it's a lot easier for somewhere like Azerbaijan to field 7 decent players than 15 exceptional specialised players in the correct positions. 7s will always do well, and is innately related to its if brother in the 15s game.

Sure, it is much more accessible to play and to a degree to watch. The festival atmosphere of the tournaments also help attract new fans. And obviously the comparative lack of set pieces and organisational elements makes it easier for "minnows" to compete.

There is still zero chance of it overtaking the XV man game.

Buer

rsh118 wrote: »

Just look at T20 vs Test cricket. Fewer and fewer people care outside the Ashes or some similar series. The format in which most nations can compete will always win.

It never will. T20 cricket is the same game played in a shorter timeframe to make it exciting and television friendly.

Sevens rugby is a different game where a single game in isolation has no value to television. To get the benefit of the game, they'd have to show the entire day which would be equally unappealing to television networks.

It might be the easier way for World Rugby to get lesser nations playing the sport and spreading the game but, in the Tier 1 nations, it will never compete with the full version of the game.

CatFromHue

It's not a sport I'd like to play, I mean think of all the running you'd have to do!!

astonaidan

CatFromHue wrote: »

It's not a sport I'd like to play, I mean think of all the running you'd have to do!!

Haha I hate it, I like standing at fb looking at my shoes, just chilling once every 10 mins catch a long ball and attempt a counter or a deadly spiral to the corner then back to admiring myself.
I dont want to be running all over the gaff chasing guys who match me for speed but have a massive headstart and no one to slow them down :mad:

NiallBoo

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fair enough. I don't think the passing and running at space in 7s is particularly transferable to the confines of the 15 man game.

That's depressing to read.

Podge_irl

NiallBoo wrote: »

That's depressing to read.

Why? I think the concept of running at space still applies but what counts as a gap in 7s is not the same as what counts as a gap in XVs and many of the long range passes you see would be suicide in a XVs game.

thomond2006

rsh118 wrote: »

Just to warn you 15s only lads, 7s will be the 'world wide' version of sport. Just look at teams like Canada, Kenya etc competing with the big boys. And with a big audience comes bigger money over time.

I don't see tournaments run in a blitz format ever becoming bigger in the major rugby nations than 15s.

locum-motion

I lived/played in Scotland for 5 years, and over there there was lots of 7's played towards the end of the season; once everyone's league/cup campaigns were over, it seemed that almost every club had a few weekends of 7's before hanging up the boots for the summer to get fat. Each one of the tournaments (that I saw, anyway) involved maybe 3-4 squads made up from the host's players, and a bunch of invited visiting teams from other clubs. I even travelled from Edinburgh to the Shetland Islands when my club (Leith Academicals) were invited to take part in the Lerwick RFC 7's*. These events were always great craic, a real party atmospere around the club, with all the WAGs there and kids running around, BBQ's, beer, bouncy castles, games of rounders for the kids and WAGs etc. It's a great tradition that has never really transferred to Ireland, and I feel that's a great pity. Apart from the Kinsale 7's, I've never really heard of many 7's tournaments in Ireland.

I really loved playing 7's. I spent the majority of my 15's career as a flanker, a centre or (mostly) as a fast(ish)-but-not-quite-fast-enough winger. 7's suited me. I scored lots of tries at 7's.

The "Cup, Plate, Shield & Bowl" format is great too; keeps interest alive til the end of the afternoon. (I think this could be adopted in the 15's RWC too; let the 3rd, 4th, & 5th placed teams in the four pools go into the semi-finals of the Plate, Shield & Bowl, and play off those matches either as curtain raisers to the RWC knockout stages or as double-headers in smaller stadiums on Friday nights before 1/4 finals and semis on Saturdays. This would keep interest alive from the smaller nations and help keep the party atmosphere going. However, that's a topic for a different thread).


*: The Lerwick RFC 7's:
Ah, now there's a great weekend. I get all misty eyed and nostalgic just thinking about it. We took the 6pm ferry out of Aberdeen on Friday and arrived at 8am on Sat. All day that day, it seemed that every ferry that arrived on 'Mainland' (the biggest of the Shetlands, where Lerwick is) from the other Shetland Islands was full of the entire female population of those islands. They were all mad to get a piece of one of the rugby players from 'Scotland' (While you and I consider "Scotland" to include the Orkneys and Shetlands, the Orkadians and Shetlanders consider themselves separate, and refer to the Scottish mainland simply as "Scotland") The disco on Saturday night was mad. It's the only time in my life that I shifted 3 women in one night, and one of those was witnessed by her husband, who didn't care!

Neil3030

I think the analogy with 20-20 cricket actually shows why 7s won't take over as the dominant code by providing the lesser nations an opportunity to compete.

20-20 has not opened the doors for smaller cricketing nations to compete with the big boys, it has allowed another product to compete in existing markets within the major cricketing nations. The most watched and highest revenue-earning 20-20 league is the IPL, in India, where cricket was already the most popular sport of over a billion people. There has been a biennial 20-20 Cricket World cup since 2007, and the champions have been India, Pakistan, England, West Indies, Sri Lanka, West Indies. These are all countries with an established test side.

With the exception of Fiji, 7s is still predominantly dominated by the major test nations. Again, looking at the World Cup Sevens, since 1993 the men's champions have been England, Fiji, New Zealand, Fiji, Wales, New Zealand. The women's champions have been New Zealand pretty much every time?

So yeah, I don't think these weekend blitz tournaments allowing people who probably already like rugby to dress up as a giraffe and have a nice day out in the sun are going to pose much of a threat to 15s.

7's are a piss up. Long live 7's.

Lord Lamp

Rugby 7's is a great sport to watch and delighted IRFU have finally come to there senses and begun to field a permanant side with the hopes of qualifying for the HSBC series in 2017. Also great result on the weekend, all going well we should see Ireland in the grand prix next year