RTB adjudication

Onthefence

Hi.

Looking for some advice please. We recently issued our tenants with a 14 day arrears notice followed by a 28 day notice of termination. Thanks to days and days of scouring through invaluable threads on here I was confident that both were issued correctly and were valid. The rent arrears were eventually paid within the 28 day period and the tenants 'requested' that we retract the termination notice. Having spent almost three years chasing rent every single month we declined their request! They opened a dispute with the RTB which we fully expected them to do.

This week the RTB got in touch informing me that the tenants have refused telephone meditation and want adjudication instead. So we await a date for this. In the meantime we would like to get prepared. So I'd appreciate some advice on what paperwork would be useful to bring along and what to expect on the day. First timers obviously! Thanks in advance ☺

Oh, by the way, the RTB caller confirmed that both notices were issued correctly and are completely valid, so I'll be bringing those along clearly!

godtabh

bring as much history if the issues as possible. Emails, texts etc etc. Have all the facts regardless if you intend to use them or not.

I had an adjudication a couple of years ago. I either had card copies or soft copies off every interaction with the then tenants. They turned up with nothing. The facts spoke for themselves.

Pawwed Rig

Best of luck with it. If it is a valid notice of termination then hopefully you will be ok but the PRTB will do everything they can to find in favour of the tenant. Have statements, letters, texts or anything else related to the tenancy on hand.
They will also try to sway you to let the tenant stay. Stand firm and get them out as you don't need the aggro.

April 73

Does the rent get paid into your bank account? If so, the obvious evidence is a copy of the lease showing the date the rent is due & then copies of the bank statements for three years showing the date the rent was actually lodged.
Also copies of any written correspondence between you & the tenant over late rent.

I'm not that familiar with the process but I guess if the tenants didn't clear the arrears within the 14 days, then the notice of termination is valid (even though they paid within the 28 days)?
I'd make sure that you are well familiar with the laws in this area. If the notice to quit is valid then how can the PRTB rule against you?

Come back & update us please!

Onthefence

Thanks all.

I'm fully expecting there will be tears on the day (not mine I hope!) and that we'll be pushed by the adjudicator to back down regardless of the facts.

We have plenty of evidence now that I think about it. Texts, a detailed rent book, bank statements, previous 14 day arrears notices etc. I'll start compiling it all now!

I'll definitely let you know how it goes!

Onthefence

Update following the adjudication last week: invalid notice of termination according to rtb. It appears that because this family have ALWAYS paid their rent late over almost three years then that's ok and we have no right to either chase them for rent or evict them...Days after hearing the result I must admit I'm still fairly speechless.

Michael D Not Higgins

Onthefence wrote: »

Update following the adjudication last week: invalid notice of termination according to rtb. It appears that because this family have ALWAYS paid their rent late over almost three years then that's ok and we have no right to either chase them for rent or evict them...Days after hearing the result I must admit I'm still fairly speechless.

Hmm, that doesn't follow from the letter of the law, but I suppose it does from the spirit of the law. Was there at least some direction to the tenants to start paying on time again or have they now been given free reign to pay when they feel like it?

beauf

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Hmm, that doesn't follow from the letter of the law, but I suppose it does from the spirit of the law. Was there at least some direction to the tenants to start paying on time again or have they now been given free reign to pay when they feel like it?

There is no penalty for paying the arrears within the notice period.

From my reading of it, there is not rule/law saying they can't do this indefinitely.

Why don't you think this isn't following the letter of the law.

Onthefence

No direction to the tenants that we've been made aware of. We were more or less told to back off. The payment date as per the original lease is irrelevant it seems.

beauf

They are not in arrears if they pay within the notice period.

While annoying, its not a reason to evict as far as I'm aware. I'm open to correction.

Onthefence

They paid within the 28 day period, not the 14 day arrears period.

beauf

Ok sorry I misread that.

SB_Part2

So what's the next option?

beauf

Did they give you any documentation of their adjudication decision. it would seem to be in breech of the regulations.

Onthefence

SB_Part2 wrote: »

So what's the next option?

Try to establIsh if there is a new payment date I suppose? If we have the right to ever chase rent?

punisher5112

I would suggest sell or take back for you or a close family member in need of it.

Also is rent at local rate of other similar property.

They will be very difficult to get out. As is just been proven.

Onthefence

Rent, while not anywhere near market rate, was increased recently so no change can be made there.

Might have to look into your other suggestions.

Onthefence

beauf wrote: »

Did they give you any documentation of their adjudication decision. it would seem to be in breech of the regulations.

Yes we received an adjudication report. It clearly says that because the rent is always late then we wrong to issue notice of termination.

Onthefence

Another joke of a decision, tenants (and I am one) just have far too much power and the RTB are worse for pandering to them.

Onthefence wrote: »

Yes we received an adjudication report. It clearly says that because the rent is always late then we wrong to issue notice of termination.

Can you appeal it?

Graham

Apollo Gorgeous Quarrel wrote: »

Another joke of a decision, tenants (and I am one) just have far too much power and the RTB are worse for pandering to them.



Can you appeal it?

That was going to be my next question. There is a process where you can appeal a RTB determination order, it looks like the appeal is heard before a 3 person panel.

tuisginideach

That seems to be completely ridiculous - it proves once again, that as far as the landlord is concerned, no lease, no arrangement, no agreement, no dates, no anything is worth the paper it's written on.


And as for the idea that tenants cannot be moved until a house/apt is sold .... the chances of tenanted houses being in 'viewing condition' is minimal. Even with the owner living in a house, think of the amount of cleaning and preparation that is put into it before putting it on view. Why would a tenant bother doing that? Absolute and utter stupidity once again from our government.

tuisginideach

OP, In your first post you say the RTB caller said the notices were completely valid. But the adjudication says they weren't. Do you still ahve details of that initial call and caller's name etc and chase up why they gave you wrong info then?

beauf

Onthefence wrote: »

Yes we received an adjudication report. It clearly says that because the rent is always late then we wrong to issue notice of termination.

I wonder can you use this to query the wording of the act with the prtb.

I suspect though with the crisis in housing the LL rights and the tenants obligations will be at the bottom of anyone's priority. That LL will leave the market because of thing like this. Seems to be forgotten.

Graham

tuisginideach wrote: »

And as for the idea that tenants cannot be moved until a house/apt is sold

Tenants can be moved to facilitate the sale of a house.

Onthefence

Apollo Gorgeous Quarrel wrote: »

Another joke of a decision, tenants (and I am one) just have far too much power and the RTB are worse for pandering to them.



Can you appeal it?

We can appeal but seriously why would we bother? There's no reason to believe it would change the outcome unfortunately.

The part IV tenancy will end eventually and we can terminate then right? With a whopping 112 days notice!

Onthefence

Onthefence wrote: »

We can appeal but seriously why would we bother? There's no reason to believe it would change the outcome unfortunately.
!

I would appeal just on the principal of it even if I thought I wouldn't win. Also its not unknown for the PRTB to overturn decisions.

Try get more paper work together, how you are struggling to pay your mortgage and you cannot continue the way things are.

How long are the tenants living there?

When you eventually get them out rent the rooms in the house separately and retain access it will minimise your risk and give you more control over your property.

Onthefence

tuisginideach wrote: »

OP, In your first post you say the RTB caller said the notices were completely valid. But the adjudication says they weren't. Do you still ahve details of that initial call and caller's name etc and chase up why they gave you wrong info then?

I know we would be told that, while the notices were totally valid in theory and correct according to rtb guidelines, when the whole picture is taken into account they're invalid based on the precedent set by continuously late rent.

I'm sorry if I sound defeatist but on this issue I very much feel defeated 😡

JustAThought

I agree - part of the media rubbish ghat promotes rights to everything & responsibility for nothing.

Ok - so I assume they are saying that you set a precedent of acceptance by allowing this continue for 3 years. In fairness - 3 years of messing - what were you thinking of? Can you appeal - once you have this apoeal decision in writing - and say - if you did not already - that this puts huge personal strain on your debt arrangements & finance & that your curcumstances have changed & you can no longer accelt ghe worry, ongoing stress & financial strain you have & have to insist on the contracted rent due day being met . Etc

You should get free legal advice & not be messing about at this stage - go to the free legal aid with all your documents, apoeal details, bank statements etc & ask for their legal perspective. Not citizens advice which us jyst an opinion - free legal advice (FLAV) centers - make an appointment & ask for an office where someone will have housing legal expertise.

beauf

Apollo Gorgeous Quarrel wrote: »

...When you eventually get them out rent the rooms in the house separately and retain access it will minimise your risk and give you more control over your property.

I know why you're suggesting that, but that can be an even bigger nightmare.

foggy_lad

Onthefence wrote: »

Update following the adjudication last week: invalid notice of termination according to rtb. It appears that because this family have ALWAYS paid their rent late over almost three years then that's ok and we have no right to either chase them for rent or evict them...Days after hearing the result I must admit I'm still fairly speechless.

Double check this and get someone else like a family member to check it all as well.

There is no way that the adjudicator/mediator should be telling you that a valid notice as specified by statute is suddenly not valid because a tenant has never paid on time!

Onthefence wrote: »

No direction to the tenants that we've been made aware of. We were more or less told to back off. The payment date as per the original lease is irrelevant it seems.

Onthefence wrote: »

They paid within the 28 day period, not the 14 day arrears period.

Once they passed the arrears notice your notice of termination once worded and delivered properly is valid and should be backed up by the RTB. there may of course be some political interference in their adjudications and tribunal decisions to massage the "homeless" figures.

Onthefence wrote: »

Yes we received an adjudication report. It clearly says that because the rent is always late then we wrong to issue notice of termination.

I would love to see that in print next to a copy of your notice of termination(redacted for anonymity)

Graham wrote: »

Tenants can be moved to facilitate the sale of a house.

Only under strictly controlled conditions since the new rules came in. House must be sold within a certain period and if not sold must be offered back to previous tenant at the same rent.

Del2005

Onthefence wrote: »

Update following the adjudication last week: invalid notice of termination according to rtb. It appears that because this family have ALWAYS paid their rent late over almost three years then that's ok and we have no right to either chase them for rent or evict them...Days after hearing the result I must admit I'm still fairly speechless.

If they've been in 3 years their Part 4 is nearly up. Get the notification to them ASAP that you aren't renewing.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

I know why you're suggesting that, but that can be an even bigger nightmare.

Why would you think that? I see it as a great option with little or no chance of nightmares. I've spent many years living in this type of setup and the LL's have had it easy as could be.

tuisginideach

Quote
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
Tenants can be moved to facilitate the sale of a house.
Only under strictly controlled conditions since the new rules came in. House must be sold within a certain period and if not sold must be offered back to previous tenant at the same rent.


Isn't that so so ridiculous? How many houses can be prepared for viewing, viewed, contracts signed and deal closed within 3 months???????????

beauf

Apollo Gorgeous Quarrel wrote: »

Why would you think that? I see it as a great option with little or no chance of nightmares. I've spent many years living in this type of setup and the LL's have had it easy as could be.

One bad tenant drives the rest out leaving them the whole but paying for one room. Getting them out then is a problem. Also bills will often be in the LL name so can be liable for tenants use of utilities.

Where they are paying for the whole house, the risk of being liable for bills, damage, and rent for other tenants in the house often make them self policing. Peer pressure as it were.

That said from a LL rights point of view, they removed almost all of them for LL renting a house, whereas as i think is your point, the LL still retains them if renting a room, particularly if they retain a room in the house for personal use.

Being a LL is fine until there is a problem then is very difficult.

foggy_lad

beauf wrote: »

One bad tenant drives the rest out leaving them the whole but paying for one room. Getting them out then is a problem. Also bills will often be in the LL name so can be liable for tenants use of utilities.

Where they are paying for the whole house, the risk of being liable for bills, damage, and rent for other tenants in the house often make them self policing. Peer pressure as it were.

That said from a LL rights point of view, they removed almost all of them for LL renting a house, whereas as i think is your point, the LL still retains them if renting a room, particularly if they retain a room in the house for personal use.

Being a LL is fine until there is a problem then is very difficult.

If the rooms are rented out singly with only the rooms rented with use of "common areas" then the people living there are licensees not tenants and are easier to evict if needed. Landlord would just pay bills each month and divide cost between the "guests".

beauf

The hope is to avoid getting to that in the first place.

Graham

foggy_lad wrote: »

Only under strictly controlled conditions since the new rules came in. House must be sold within a certain period and if not sold must be offered back to previous tenant at the same rent.

What are the 'new rules' that have come in to section 34 that relate to terminating a tenancy in order to sell?

I'm sure the other provisions you mentioned have been in place since before the 2015 amendments.

foggy_lad

Graham wrote: »

What are the 'new rules' that have come in to section 34 that relate to terminating a tenancy in order to sell?

I'm sure the other provisions you mentioned have been in place since before the 2015 amendments.

There is a time limit now where there was no strict time-frame before just a willingness to have the property "for sale".

Michael D Not Higgins

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is a time limit now where there was no strict time-frame before just a willingness to have the property "for sale".

There was always a 3 month time limit of intention to transfer interest from the RTA 2004. There have just been a couple of cases where the court has ruled that there needs to be a firm intention. There is no hard and fast rule on what that entails, but it does mean you can't give notice if you're just trying to get them out ahead of any advertising, open viewings, etc.

Michael D Not Higgins

foggy_lad wrote: »

Only under strictly controlled conditions since the new rules came in. House must be sold within a certain period and if not sold must be offered back to previous tenant at the same rent.

Also, there's no requirement to offer back the property to the original tenant. The requirement only applies to paragraphs 4, 5, and 6 related to change of use, use by the landlord or family member or extensive renovations, and the period is 6 months from the expiry of the notice or if available for reletting after renovations are complete.

MarkAnthony

Onthefence wrote: »

Update following the adjudication last week: invalid notice of termination according to rtb. It appears that because this family have ALWAYS paid their rent late over almost three years then that's ok and we have no right to either chase them for rent or evict them...Days after hearing the result I must admit I'm still fairly speechless.

Playing devil's advocate here a bit I admit, but I can see where they are coming from (custom and practice) and this should act as a warning to other LLs to keep it strictly business like I'm afraid. The same goes for tenants - the LL isn't being a w***er they're trying to protect themselves for issue like this.

As for the letter of the law it should be noted it's arbitration and two competing constitutional rights are at play - the right to earn a living and the rights surrounding the dwelling. The latter will always take precedence over the former, despite it having gone so far in one direction that people are getting out of the rental game wherever they can.

Milly33

I would second guess everything the RTB tell you. After recently dealing with them they are fairly useless and advise wrongly on a lot of things.. Maybe tis solicitor time

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is a time limit now where there was no strict time-frame before just a willingness to have the property "for sale".

That being said we had a thread on here recently where a tenant was given notice as the house was being "sold" and the the place was back up for rent again straight away. In that instance the RTB didn't find in favour of the tenant.

Onthefence

Thanks for all your input, boarders. We are strongly considering appeal but because there was a small amount awarded to the tenants "being damages for breach of obligations in respect of the tenancy" we are worried that this amount could escalate dramatically if we were to lose at tribunal. This seems doubly unfair considering we had to take time off work to attend the hearing whereas the tenants wouldn't have that issue!

We spoke to the rtb in an attempt to ascertain when/if we are permitted to chase the tenants for rent from now on. The lady couldn't tell us this! When pushed she said the only way to determine this is to appeal!!

Before we decide for sure we'll get advice from our solicitor. If not appealing, we'll wait until the part IV runs out and terminate then. I imagine this can also be disputed by the tenants though!!

Over and out until I have more to add! Cheers.

MarkAnthony

They can't dispute the termination at the end of the Part IV. For the love of God though get that handled by your solicitor. If they cock it up you've their malpractice insurance to fall back on.

Onthefence

"Any issue as to the validity of this notice or the right of the landlord to serve it, must be referred to the Residential
Tenancies Board under Part 6 of the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004 to 2015 within 28 days from the date of receipt of
it."

I quoted above from the rtb's own sample notice of termination at end/beginning of part iv. Surely that's a right to dispute?! Trying to brace myself in advance!!

MarkAnthony

Onthefence wrote: »

"Any issue as to the validity of this notice or the right of the landlord to serve it, must be referred to the Residential
Tenancies Board under Part 6 of the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004 to 2015 within 28 days from the date of receipt of
it."

I quoted above from the rtb's own sample notice of termination at end/beginning of part iv. Surely that's a right to dispute?! Trying to brace myself in advance!!

Sorry I did not choose my words carefully! I can certainly understand your caution given the ridiculousness you've gone through. I should have said any dispute would be unsuccessful.

Onthefence

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I should have said any dispute would be unsuccessful.

Now THAT'S what I wanted to hear. Thanks!

MarkAnthony

Onthefence wrote: »

Now THAT'S what I wanted to hear. Thanks!

Well assuming they have no grounds* :pac: hence why I say get the solicitor to issue it!

*Which is a bit like saying black is black and white is white.

GreatDefector

foggy_lad wrote: »

Only under strictly controlled conditions since the new rules came in. House must be sold within a certain period and if not sold must be offered back to previous tenant at the same rent.

I'd love to believe you but...
http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057584985/1

Clearly the LL was relisting at a higher price

Another ridiculous PRTB ruling

Ciara22

OP, I strongly suggest you appeal this, if you are still within the appeal period. (21 days I think)

As an agent, I've been through a lot of cases and the RTB have made some crazy decisions at adjudications. They don't expect appeals which is why many landlords just give up but every time I have appealed it's been overturned.

You need to treat the Appeal like a new case so all documents have to be resubmitted and the case is heard like new. Don't leave anything out! The panel of 3 are very black and white which is very different to an Adjudication or even the dreaded and useless telephone mediation.

An appeal is €100 but I'd be surprised if you didn't win it. However, doesn't mean tenants will vacate either. They can still ignore this, you can lodge an enforcement request with the RTB which they will take at least a year to respond to and then say they won't act on your behalf.

If you win the appeal and the tenant still doesn't vacate, then go to your solicitor and take a case yourself.

If they won't vacate for arrears, they certainly won't vacate if you want to sell so don't waste time.