Cycling Ireland Increasing 1 day insurance from €2 to €10

afishyfish

I just received this email from Cycling Ireland.
I thought is was a hoax. Turns out they're serious.
Can they get away with this?

Dear club officials and event promoters,

The Board of Cycling Ireland has recently taken the decision to increase the leisure event insurance fee (formerly known as a one day licence) from €2 to €10. This is to increase the value of leisure membership to those who are already Cycling Ireland members, and makes membership more attractive to event participants.

This change will be effective from the 1st of June 2016.

Regards,

The Cycling Ireland Team

jamesd

Is this for real ?

afishyfish

Yes. I have confirmed it. It's genuine.

afishyfish

To put this in context. I'm staging an event next month (Cycle Ataxia) and anticipate maybe 400 non-CI members attending. My insurance fee will jump from €800 to €4,000.
:eek:

Carawaystick

no mention on Cycling Ireland website.

Chips Lovell

It's genuine. My club received it too.

afishyfish

Are you surprised??
I only got the email in the past hour and I have had a phone call to confirm?
It's genuine alright.

jamesd

From CI website

"The indemnity request form is used by a club to indemnify a venue that they are using/hired that would not normally be covered under the Cycling Ireland insurance policy. Once an event is authorised a letter of indemnity can be requested through the CI portal under the "Event Preparation" tile. The cost of this letter if €60. It is used for venues and facilities only and not people."

"One day licenses are used where people with no Cycling Ireland membership or not an appropriate license type may participate in an event. The cost of a one day license for leisure events is €10 and for competitive events is €20. Clubs who would like one day licenses will need to contact Cycling Ireland who will then issue a numbered one day license sheet. This sheet will then be used to sign in the people who will be participating on one day licenses. After the event, the club will submit payment to Cycling Ireland."

clog

Our club is running a 12km (yes twelve) family cycle as part of 'Bike Week' in June, everything in place confirmed and approved with CI and local CoCo (2 euro per adult) in last couple of weeks. Posters printed etc 12 euro total entry with kids free. Any surplus to charity.

Got the email today and a club official has rang CI and been told 10 euro no exeptions.

We will probably end up with a large loss on this as a result as at least 75% will not have a licence and would not be in another organised ride all year.

I would like to know the justification for this rise, have their premiums have risen by such a large amount ?.

jamesd

Our event is in August, last year there was 380 cyclists and mainly non CI member cyclists. I think there was a limit though as we sent back €2 per perosn and they posted a cheque back to us stating there was a cap on the amount they wanted.

buffalo

afishyfish wrote: »

This change will be effective from the 1st of June 2016.

That seems to be incredibly short notice for something that they've just 'recently taken a decision' on, i.e. not forced upon them by external circumstances.

dahat

Increasing fees with popularity much like those who organise running races did.last few years. Its a massive increase amd will deter alot of non licence holders from entering events.

ruffmut

Yep I got the email also. I would have thought that this would have to go through an AGM and not mid season. How is a club supposed to run an event with this price increase. At out main event last year we had a lot of one day license cyclists so this year it will push up the entry to an unaffordable fee.

CramCycle

Where would you find minutes for the meeting that this was decided on? Fair enough if it was warned for next year and discussed at the AGM

Eamonnator

Carawaystick wrote: »

no mention on Cycling Ireland website.

It seems to be covered by#7, as already alluded to by jamesd.


http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/events/how-to-organise-a-cycling-ireland-event

schemingbohemia

clog wrote: »

Our club is running a 12km (yes twelve) family cycle as part of 'Bike Week' in June, everything in place confirmed and approved with CI and local CoCo (2 euro per adult) in last couple of weeks. Posters printed etc 12 euro total entry with kids free. Any surplus to charity.

Got the email today and a club official has rang CI and been told 10 euro no exeptions.

We will probably end up with a large loss on this as a result as at least 75% will not have a licence and would not be in another organised ride all year.

I would like to know the justification for this rise, have their premiums have risen by such a large amount ?.

Could you use the local authority insurance cover?

traprunner

I'm struggling to remember the Great Dublin Bike Ride last year. Wasn't the €2 fee payable by anyone without a club and was partially organised by Cycling Ireland? If so, I'd say it would have a big impact on the success of it this year.

ATTY

clog wrote: »

Our club is running a 12km (yes twelve) family cycle as part of 'Bike Week' in June, everything in place confirmed and approved with CI and local CoCo (2 euro per adult) in last couple of weeks. Posters printed etc 12 euro total entry with kids free. Any surplus to charity.

Got the email today and a club official has rang CI and been told 10 euro no exeptions.

We will probably end up with a large loss on this as a result as at least 75% will not have a licence and would not be in another organised ride all year.

I would like to know the justification for this rise, have their premiums have risen by such a large amount ?.

The first thing I thought of when I saw the email is what would happen if an event was already booked and advertised. This is awful and very short notice. We do family charity cycles every year and have just finished one, we only charged 15euro for a family, we had some who did extra fundraising. The club members covered the cost of non ci members so everything raised went to the charity. This will severely limit our ability to do this in the future.

I wouldn't mind if they said it was due to increased costs but they blatantly say it's to forcibly 'encourage' people to join ci.

As a leisure club we feel we get poor value for money from ci and the only reason we affiliate is to get insurance for these charity events. So they will most likely loose our 300euros next year.

Maybe a joint effort to show our disappointment to ci is needed.

Darkglasses

Baffled by this decision. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

morana

as far as i can remember the board can introduce any rule without the need for an e/agm. They have to give 28 days notice and then it is in force.

this is a very poor decision and not well thought out. They are forcing a lot of promoters to either call off their events or in some instances suffer a loss. No doubt some will still make a profit but I think the reasonable path to follow would be to implement from next season.

I would not be surprised if a CTC type organisation comes into being whose focus is just leisure but if people really felt strongly about it they could try and get an egm called using the club request mechanism ( i cant remember the detail but i am sure it was tried in the past )

ATTY

ruffmut wrote: »

Yep I got the email also. I would have thought that this would have to go through an AGM and not mid season. How is a club supposed to run an event with this price increase. At out main event last year we had a lot of one day license cyclists so this year it will push up the entry to an unaffordable fee.

Wasn't there an EGM recently? Maybe this is where it came about. I thought an EGM was strange, if I was a cynic I'd think they were trying to pass it before the majority of events take place this year.

morana

ATTY wrote: »

Wasn't there an EGM recently? Maybe this is where it came about. I thought an EGM was strange, if I was a cynic I'd think they were trying to pass it before the majority of events take place this year.

no there was no egm recently. it was scheduled for June to discuss some memo and arts amendments and acceptance of the accounts being switched from nov to earlier in the year.

I would say this was a board decision at a board meeting around the 6th may if the 28 day rule was enforced

Beasty

To be clear although membership fees need to be agreed at the AGM, the costs of one day licences does not

This is presumably partially reflecting increased insurance costs, although I would be very surprised if they amount to as much as €8 per person and perhaps also needs to be looked at alongside the additional fees introduced for leisure members at the last AGM. The cynic in me sees this as another way for the increased leisure membership to subsidise the racing side of things. I recognise a new velodrome will need substantial funding from CI, and if that's part of the reason I would prefer them to be open about it. I can't say I was convinced by the arguments supporting Munster's proposal to hike the leisure membership last year, but those present (predominantly from the racing side in my view) voted it through.

dahat

Will this increase just encourage events to run without CI cover? Hard to justify such a huge increase no mafter what needs building etc.

Will guess that membership will increase next season as well for leisure members.

Beasty

dahat wrote: »

Will this increase just encourage events to run without CI cover? Hard to justify such a huge increase no mafter what needs building etc.

Will guess that membership will increase next season as well for leisure members.

Anything put on by a CI club must have adequate insurance via CI

If it's put on by someone not affiliated to CI, they can arguably not require personal accident cover and that then becomes entirely at the risk of the cyclists involved. However the organiser still requires public liability insurance

I do think CI is risking killing the goose that lays a golden egg here. Leisure membership in Ireland is much higher than in British Cycling for example although most of the decisions within CI are taken by people who may be more wedded to the racing side of things. That was clearly the case at the last AGM

The risk is that someone could set up a rival organisation and possibly negotiate cheaper insurance given racing is going to be a higher risk activity. If that happens and the leisure riders leave en-masse CI may find itself with funding issues

morana

Beasty wrote: »

The risk is that someone could set up a rival organisation and possibly negotiate cheaper insurance given racing is going to be a higher risk activity. If that happens and the leisure riders leave en-masse CI may find itself with funding issues

and how that hasnt happened is beyond me! The IVCA was setup because CI wasnt catering for the older riders maybe this will push some leisure clubs into joining forces to setup LFC (Leisure Fed of Cyclists)

Beasty

morana wrote: »

and how that hasnt happened is beyond me! The IVCA was setup because CI wasnt catering for the older riders maybe this will push some leisure clubs into joining forces to setup LFC (Leisure Fed of Cyclists)

Could focus on Masters & Underage - MUFC has a much better ring to it....

lescol

When I joined CI as a leisure cyclist it was standard to charge €10 on a sportive for nonCI members for a one day licence, as I was doing more than 4 a year it made sense. There are bound to be lots of examples around but here is a poster from 2014 with a €10 fee...



Sorry about the size of the image:o

Is this just CI going back to what was considered "normal"?

PeadarCo

I agree there doesn't seem much sense or at least no justification has been given.

I think alot of people who focus solely on racing forget that a good healthy leisure membership helps the racing side of things. Most people who start racing and don't come through underage, start off as leisure cyclists.
Even those people who never race may have kids and they might race underage.

clog

@lescol. I beleive the amount was always the same but how clubs priced their rides was up to them.

I am worried about this development though as a newish small rural club we are actively trying to recruit, mainly from people who have never been in a club before. Already today I have had to field calls from a few members (these are also CI members) asking how this increase can be justified, especially in the middle of the year when plans have been made. I honestly do not know what to tell them.

Mercian Pro

lescol wrote: »

When I joined CI as a leisure cyclist it was standard to charge €10 on a sportive for nonCI members for a one day licence, as I was doing more than 4 a year it made sense. There are bound to be lots of examples around but here is a poster from 2014 with a €10 fee...

Is this just CI going back to what was considered "normal"?

That kinda rings a bell as I joined CI around 2010 in order to do a number of sportives at the reduced rate. Over the last few years I noticed that there was no reduction for CI members at many events (presumably because the Clubs were including the €2 in the general entry) and let my membership lapse last year. I rejoined this year as I have finally joined a club and got a €2 reduction at one of the five sportives I did since March.

Checking back here on the Mick Byrne from a few years ago there is mention of no extra charge for a day licence as it was a charity event and CI were covering the cost. I don't know if that was general practice but it might be considered for genuine charity sportives.

Leroy42

Seriously, CI are doing cycling in Ireland no favours.

They rely totally on the clubs to run the races, even the nationals, they now seem to be scamming the lesiure cyclists.

The whole insurance thing of one day licence, is it even required for a sportive? I get it for racing, but surely you pretty much enter at your own risk.

You can get holiday insurance for 2 weeks for nearly a €10 for jebus sake

guanciale

I run a leisure event and I support the move but not the governance around this.
I support the move for admittedly selfish reasons. The event I run does not depend on joe or mary public showing up and riding for charity. It does depend on a tight number of reasonably experienced cyclists to enter my event and ride the route with some (minimal) support.
Administering ODLs is a pain in my ass for no obvious gain. My event would make for an unlikely gateway into cycling.

Accepting all of the above I think that the move by CI and the communication surrounding it is most ill advised.
Firstly, it highlights the implied cost of leisure licenses - in that it had been cheaper for some leisure riders to simply take ODLs at €2 a pop. Thus getting almost twenty events before the perception of a payback on a CI leisure license.
Secondly, it highlights how disadvantaged leisure cyclists are in terms of accountability and representation at CI - but some of this is down to Members themselves and inertia. I can see the beginnings of a move toward a CTC arrangement beginning out of this.
Finally, I do not believe that it is a coincidence that Gary McElroy of CI emailed event organisers advising that 2 races and 2 leisure events will be subject to a full risk assessment by CI over the summer months.

I am wondering whether some events following this will simply be outside the scope of events that CI is willing to extend insurance toward. Particularly vulnerable here would be events operating in a self-sufficiency/minimal manpower basis, thinking specifically of Audax events.

These set of events are a wake up call for the non-racing cycling community. Taken in total CI may, hamfistedly have done us a favour. But I can say that I will seriously consider nit running my event in future and will also consider whether I should renew my CI license given that I do not race and have no inclination to go back.

Lusk_Doyle

When is the renewal of the CI insurance policy? Surely it runs on a calendar basis like the membership? If so, then any changes on the policy would have been notified in advance of the last renewal. Changes mid policy are not allowed unless specifically requested by the insured (i.e. a change in level of cover). This then, raises the question of where and when this came from?

Beasty

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

When is the renewal of the CI insurance policy? Surely it runs on a calendar basis like the membership? If so, then any changes on the policy would have been notified in advance of the last renewal. Changes mid policy are not allowed unless specifically requested by the insured (i.e. a change in level of cover). This then, raises the question of where and when this came from?

This is not directly related to the insurance premiums paid. It is simply a way for CI to raise cash

The cynic in me is taking over again...

At the AGM it was quite clear that the Leisure levy (of €5) plus general increase in leisure membership (another fiver making a total increase of €10) was entirely driven by racing objectives. I think there is a wider question as to what your €40 gets you. You get personal injury insurance when "training" - pretty much on club spins and sportives. You get a few discounts that may or indeed may not be of value to you and you get the "feeling" of being a member of a national federation

My BritishCycling membership gets me pretty much the same, plus 10% discounts at Halfords and CRC (even already discounted stuff) - A single CRC order covered my membership fee.

So in Ireland your 40 quid gets you a few spins with limited insurance cover.

Why should many people bother if they can get one day licences for €2? Well push that up to €10 and you've "paid" for your licence after 4 rides and thrown a few more quid at the racers while you are at it.

So this to me is yet again the racing side seeing how far they can screw the leisure riders

For anyone that's interested and qualifies you can get better insurance from the IVCA. Their leisure fee is €45 but that's reduced to €30 if you agree to marshal the WW200 (which could be a cycling marshal getting you free entry for that event also!)

Buzwaldo

Just opened boards there now and reading this thread.
Can't believe it's not April 1st !!

buffalo

morana wrote: »

and how that hasnt happened is beyond me! The IVCA was setup because CI wasnt catering for the older riders maybe this will push some leisure clubs into joining forces to setup LFC (Leisure Fred of Cyclists)

FYP :P

Orion

ATTY wrote: »

The first thing I thought of when I saw the email is what would happen if an event was already booked and advertised. This is awful and very short notice. We do family charity cycles every year and have just finished one, we only charged 15euro for a family, we had some who did extra fundraising. The club members covered the cost of non ci members so everything raised went to the charity. This will severely limit our ability to do this in the future.

There actually could be a legal aspect there. If an event was already organised under the €2 rule then that may be all they can charge. The €10 should only be charged for new events advertised after the change. For Barry and others who have events already booked and advertised I'd be speaking to solicitor to see if they can move the goalposts when the game has already started. My thinking is that they can't.

All that aside this is a disgraceful change. Leisure cycling is on the increase and this will just mean that people won't bother with CI insurance now. And rightly so. They could well be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

morana

I thought the "one day Licence" aspect of a leisure event was simply getting them to sign on and the sheets plus the appropriate amount being returned to CI? Wasn't aware of numbers etc to be distributed.


I agree with Beasty this is a mechanism to use the majority of members to subsidise the racing side. Can any of you accountant types recall how much the fed has in reserves from last agm? I know every year the growth in membership has outstripped what they budgeted for and this excess income has been spent.

jamesd

Going by these changes I think our club will not run its event next year and we are wondering about cancelling this years even though we have it booked as an event with CI since last year.
We also are having a think on the club not renewing with CI next year and instead us all just becoming stand alone CI members and only a club by name but not approved by CI. (the event fee's / insurance was why we stayed with CI even after the increases of fee's)

Beasty

morana wrote: »

Can any of you accountant types recall how much the fed has in reserves from last agm? I know every year the growth in membership has outstripped what they budgeted for and this excess income has been spent.

2014 accounts are in here

Balance sheet is at page 99 - around €300k of reserves

The important bit though is later

At page 111:

membership fees - €1.05m
20-25,000 members would be leisure accounting for 75%+ of that €1m. ie leisure membeship raised nearly €800k before the recent hike

Total membership costs are €160k with insurance another €200k - that covers racers as well as leisure. Let's say conservatively €300k of those costs relate to leisure. Then there are the overheads of running the office etc (€360k), although arguably a lot of that is supporting the racing side. I would estimate though that leisure was subsidising racing to the tune of €3-400k in 2014

I have little doubt that will have increased in 2015 and this year we may well find that figure is nearer (and probably over) half a million:eek:

CramCycle

I wouldn't be as opposed if they reintroduced a 0 charge for events that give 100% of their take to charity.

I would be opposed to everyone who links a charity as many might link one, small donation, just to get around the fees.

The jump is also too steep, 5euro, small and round jump, with full warning from next year that it will be 10euro so joining makes more sense (but still with a 0 rating for charity events, and I still think a tenner is to high unless they reduce the license cost).

Leroy42

Regardless of the level of the fee, the first question needs to be what is it that a fee, of whatever level, gives to the consumer?

Once that is established, then the value discussion can be had. I am not sure exactly what the fee gets a leisure cyclist. Insurance seems to be the main thing mentioned, but €40 for insurance for a leisure cyclist seems high, so the very idea behind increasing the one day from 2 to 10 to prove that the annual fee is better value is flawed.

They should keep the one licence fee for sportives etc as low as possible to encourage more people to get into cycling. I don't have any empirical evidence but I am sure there is some % of people who start off in leisure moving on the racing, so in effect CI are trying to price new customers out!

greenspurs

i recently ran a charity cycle, and i charged Non CI members the mandatory €2 extra to cover the cost of a 1 day licence.
I charged members €15, so if i was to run it next year, i would be charging non members €25 !
Crazy !
All they are doing is forcing events to go get their events insured independently of CI and thus lose out on more cash for the 'running of Cycling Ireland' .....

Mefistofelino

CramCycle wrote: »

I still think a tenner is to high unless they reduce the license cost).

I'd fully expect that once riders have been brought into the "leisure licence" net by the increase in ODL cost, the licence itself will be increased to €40 or even €50. Neither would I be surprised if the other three provinces look to increase their levy from €5 to the €10 that Cycling Ulster charge.


From the 2014 figures posted by Beasty above, the average insurance charge per rider was less than €8 for the year.

CramCycle

Leroy42 wrote: »

Regardless of the level of the fee, the first question needs to be what is it that a fee, of whatever level, gives to the consumer?

Cheaper access to events now. I suspect that is it really as leisure members (without a club) insurance outside of events is dubious at best.

Once that is established, then the value discussion can be had. I am not sure exactly what the fee gets a leisure cyclist. Insurance seems to be the main thing mentioned, but €40 for insurance for a leisure cyclist seems high, so the very idea behind increasing the one day from 2 to 10 to prove that the annual fee is better value is flawed.

Completely, I am just giving their rationale, not saying it's value. Although we won't know if it is value until next year, if the number increase in line with expectation or similar volumes of people still pay for it, then it is value as the customer is willing to pay for it, if either drop, decline or slow, then basically, we were all right and CI are completely wrong.

They should keep the one licence fee for sportives etc as low as possible to encourage more people to get into cycling. I don't have any empirical evidence but I am sure there is some % of people who start off in leisure moving on the racing, so in effect CI are trying to price new customers out!

I did, although I rarely race, there are also a % who will be put off by the price now who would have given it a trial with the lower cost and maybe became interested.

greenspurs wrote: »

All they are doing is forcing events to go get their events insured independently of CI and thus lose out on more cash for the 'running of Cycling Ireland' .....

Indeed, at this rate, if the likes of the ICVA start to offer clubs like Audax a non participation membership for the same amount, they will be quids in. As in members for insurance sake and not interfere with ICVA at all, essentially a money maker.

Mefistofelino wrote: »

I'd fully expect that once riders have been brought into the "leisure licence" net by the increase in ODL cost, the licence itself will be increased to €40 or even €50. Neither would I be surprised if the other three provinces look to increase their levy from €5 to the €10 that Cycling Ulster charge.


From the 2014 figures posted by Beasty above, the average insurance charge per rider was less than €8 for the year.

It really defies belief but I suppose we will have to wait and see will people protest with their feet?

Beasty

Mefistofelino wrote: »

From the 2014 figures posted by Beasty above, the average insurance charge per rider was less than €8 for the year.

Racers take a disproportionate amount of that by a long way. Think there was something over 300 claims in 2014, but suspect most were from racing incidents (and I'll admit to representing over 1% of the total cost in 2014 myself, resulting from racing).

jinkypolly

Our club ran a TT league from the end of March for 5 weeks, CI was charging us €10 for ODL's then. It would appear they were screwing us over charging us the increased fee then.

Chips Lovell

They weren't. The fee for competitive one day licenses has always been €10. The change is has been in the leisure one day licence fee.

Leroy42

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

They weren't. The fee for competitive one day licenses has always been €10. The change is has been in the leisure one day licence fee.

Slightly OT, but why €10 for a one day licence. I mean it was a club run TT league, what was the point of the €10 (apart of course from that they can).

I have to say CI comes across as little more than a jolly little quango. Is there a law that says you can't partake in a club league without CI membership, apart from the CI law I mean?

Beasty

Leroy42 wrote: »

Slightly OT, but why €10 for a one day licence. I mean it was a club run TT league, what was the point of the €10 (apart of course from that they can).

I have to say CI comes across as little more than a jolly little quango. Is there a law that says you can't partake in a club league without CI membership, apart from the CI law I mean?

That's the whole point. CI affiliated clubs are members and subject to it's "laws". Those "laws" require adequate insurance to be in place to minimise the exposure to individual, club and indeed CI should anything go wrong. Local councils will expect public leability cover to be available to use their roads for such events. In Ireland the only recognised Cycling bodies that have such cover are CI and the IVCA (although the likes of Triathlon Ireland will have similar cover). Personal accident cover is a "bonus", and a very expensive "bonus" at that.....