Egypt Air Flight MSN804 goes missing

knucklehead6

Have just seen reports on bbc and Sky news about a flight from Paris to Cairo going missing.

Kenny2012

Egypt Air A320 SU-GCC operating MS804 from CDG to Cairo has disappeared from radar screens about 80 miles before entering Egyptian airspace.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ms804/#9c0b766

coffeepls

I got a news alert from cnn - this does not look good at all.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/18/middleeast/egyptair-flight-disappears/index.html?adkey=bn

Sky are saying it went missing at 1.45am BST

Mycroft H

Top of the hour news on BBC radio. Is there a non malicious reason why a plane would disappear from radar?

"An EgyptAir flight from Paris to Cairo has disappeared from radar, the Egyptian airline says.

It says there are 59 passengers and 10 crew members on board Flight MS804.
The aircraft was flying at 37,000ft (11,300m) when it went missing over the eastern Mediterranean. An official said the plane lost contact with radar at 02:45 Cairo time (00:45 GMT)."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36309492

dfx-

Mycroft H wrote: »

Top of the hour news on BBC radio. Is there a non malicious reason why a plane would disappear from radar?

A stall with no horizon on a dark clear night perhaps?

smurfjed

A stall with no horizon on a dark clear night perhaps?

Wow, who needs to do an investigation!

Shouldn't our thoughts be focused on finding the aircraft?

Calina

Per FlightRadar it disappeared from the transponder coverage at 2.29. But per reports Egypt suggests it disappeared from radar at 2.45.

Mycroft H

Calina wrote: »

Per FlightRadar it disappeared from the transponder coverage at 2.29. But per reports Egypt suggests it disappeared from radar at 2.45.

No land based radar then?

duffman13

smurfjed wrote: »

Wow, who needs to do an investigation!

Shouldn't our thoughts be focused on finding the aircraft?

Obviously the focus should be on finding the plane.

Somebody asked a speculative question and the OP gave a legitimate answer.

Live Updates here aswell,
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-africa-36328976

According to the BBC clear sky and no bad weather conditions overnight.

Egypt Air on twitter:
An informed source at EGYPTAIR declared that its flight number MS804 had 56 passengers on board including 1 child and 2 infants in addition to 3 EGYPTAIR security personnel and 7 cabin crew with a total of 66 persons on board.

https://twitter.com/EGYPTAIR/status/733157004999557120?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

JCX BXC

Without speculating, it doesn't look good.

RIP to all those on board.

highlydebased

Possible distress signal/beacon detected 2 hours after last contact

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/may/19/egyptair-plane-cairo-paris-live-updates

Egyptian state news has quoted Prime Minister Sherif Ismail that they cannot rule out the possibility that this is a terrorist attack. He also said there was no "distress call" but there was a "signal" received from the plane.

vicwatson

Egyptair tweeted this perhaps a little early "that the aircraft pilot has 6275 of flying hours including 2101 flying hours on Airbus 320."

RIP all

flanzer

Looking at the track on FR, it stops at 36,975. Impact on the transponder maybe? Transponder switched off more so? Decompression or pilot error, you would surely see the FL reduce somewhat?

RIP

Tabnabs

Ships being redirected to search the area for wreckage

https://twitter.com/MarineTraffic/status/733209612934127616

Tabnabs

Also this speculative report

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/733177684726063104

jmayo

Sadly it doesn't look good.
Not jumping to conclusions, but the high probability is that it was a terrorist attack, possibly a bomb.

They should find the wreckage easily enough as the emergency locator beacon gave a position a couple of hours after it disappeared.

It is another bad day for Egyptian aviation.

Alun

jmayo wrote: »

It is another bad day for Egyptian aviation.

... and an even worse one for French airport security if true.

ElNino

Alun wrote: »

... and an even worse one for French airport security if true.

Not necessarily because the plane came from Cairo earlier. It is all pure speculation at this point anyway.

duffman13

ElNino wrote: »

Not necessarily because the plane came from Cairo earlier. It is all pure speculation at this point anyway.

Don't think it did, apparently was in Tunis and somewhere else that day. Either way as you said too early to speculate though at this stage.

martinsvi

flanzer wrote: »

Looking at the track on FR, it stops at 36,975. Impact on the transponder maybe? Transponder switched off more so? Decompression or pilot error, you would surely see the FL reduce somewhat?

RIP

FR feeders only send updates to FR24 in 2 minute intervals, during those 2 minutes a lot can happen but wouldn't show up on FR24.

Mycroft H

duffman13 wrote: »

Don't think it did, apparently was in Tunis and somewhere else that day. Either way as you said too early to speculate though at this stage.

Buffman

I'm not going to get involved in any speculation, other than to say I hope this wasn't a deliberate action by anyone.

The avhearld is a good source of up to date non-speculative information.

FR24 has a history of flights for SU-GCC.

From marine traffic a number of vessels have diverted to the area, some are almost stationary there at the moment, others look to have resumed their original course.

martinsvi

Greek authorities say they tried to contact the plane at 00:27Z, they didn't receive any response. Last transponder pickup on FR24 is at 00:33Z, 5 minutes later. Greeks also say, that the plane lost 22000 ft (if this is true, apparently transponder was still operational after it went out of FR24 range) and then made 2 sharp turns.

Doesn't look like a bomb to me.

It has also been reported that there were 3 marshals on board, in my mind that makes hijacking attempt less likely (but doesn't rule out obviously)

If the reports are accurate (but they rarely are immediately after the incident), sooner or later, I think everyone's attention is going to be set on the crew.

skywanderer

Isn't there an Irish Naval vessel somewhere out there at the moment picking up migrants from the Med, I wonder if this has joined the search effort. A terrible incident and I just hope we find out what caused it. RIP to all those who lost their lives.

HeidiHeidi

skywanderer wrote: »

Isn't there an Irish Naval vessel somewhere out there at the moment picking up migrants from the Med, I wonder if this has joined the search effort. A terrible incident and I just hope we find out what caused it. RIP to all those who lost their lives.

She's moored up in the Straits of Messina, presumably having brought the refugees they rescued the other day to Sicily.

smurfjed

Greek authorities say they tried to contact the plane at 00:27Z, they didn't receive any response

That area is notorious for bad VHF communications either with Cairo or Athens, it was always imperative to have a radio tuned to 121.5

It has also been reported that there were 3 marshals on board, in my mind that makes hijacking attempt less likely (but doesn't rule out obviously)

You might actually discover that these are not like the US Sky marshals.

I think everyone's attention is going to be set on the crew.

Why?

martinsvi

smurfjed wrote: »

That area is notorious for bad VHF communications either with Cairo or Athens, it was always imperative to have a radio tuned to 121.5

surely they can't be that bad? As local pilots they should have expectancy that they're about to cross the FIR and should be handed over to Cairo, to keep their ears focused and squelch turned down. What makes the coms so difficult? They're up there at FL370, no terrain or azimuth can bother them there?

smurfjed wrote: »

T
You might actually discover that these are not like the US Sky marshals.

what difference does it make? Surely they wouldn't stand by if someone was to try to take over the cockpit?

smurfjed wrote: »

Why?

All investigations focus on crew to some extent, but if you rule out terrorism (not that you can at this stage, but I'm having trouble imagining why would ISIS or whoever else fight with Egyptians?), weather (some charts suggest there was a relatively strong jet stream crossing their path, but nothing too mayor), I think the focus shift to crew would be the next obvious step.

smurfjed

surely they can't be that bad? As local pilots they should have expectancy that they're about to cross the FIR and should be handed over to Cairo, to keep their ears focused and squelch turned down. What makes the coms so difficult? They're up there at FL370, no terrain or azimuth can bother them there?

It is and we are routinely above FL410, its crap in both directions. Notwithstanding that particular area, Egyptian ATC transmissions are notoriously lousy as if someone is sitting and talking into a tube.

weather (some charts suggest there was a relatively strong jet stream crossing their path, but nothing too mayor)

Again extremely common for that route.

I'm sure that the investigation which should be conducted by Egypt, France, Greece, USA (maybe as observers), shall look at all possibilities including the crew.

thomasj

smurfjed wrote:

Why?

Flight 990 crash (egyptair) comes to mind

Muppet Man

Truly awful stuff.... I flew out of CDG yesterday to dublin. Their PAX security is pretty thorough.... Scary stuff. Scary times.

martinsvi

smurfjed wrote: »

It is and we are routinely above FL410, its crap in both directions. Notwithstanding that particular area, Egyptian ATC transmissions are notoriously lousy as if someone is sitting and talking into a tube.

are they bad on Greek side as well? They were on the Greek frequency when lost contact

smurfjed wrote: »

Again extremely common for that route.

yes, as you can see, I ruled out the weather on my post, unless they got into turbulence and the PF mishandled it

anyhow, reports of first debris being found

smurfjed

Flight 990 crash (egyptair) comes to mind

[*]

I knew that would come up at some stage, but if this is a suicide then the reasons would fall either into mental illness or religious.
It will be interested to see which, if either of these it is.

smurfjed

unless they got into turbulence and the PF mishandled it

Seriously?

The King of Dalriada

martinsvi wrote: »

surely they can't be that bad? As local pilots they should have expectancy that they're about to cross the FIR and should be handed over to Cairo, to keep their ears focused and squelch turned down. What makes the coms so difficult? They're up there at FL370, no terrain or azimuth can bother them there? .

VHF comms in the Cairo FIR are notoriously bad. Continously reports of unable to contact atc or inability to understand them due to static and poor transmitters.
The FIR boundary with Greece is especially poor.

Irish Steve

OK, in the absence of ANY clear and unambiguous information from the people tasked with investigating this event, can I suggest that some of the more extreme speculations be withheld.

I am particularly referring to the sorts of suggestions that will be at best upsetting, and at worst downright offensive to professional pilots, and we have a number of professionals active on the forum.

Until there are some clearer indications of the chain of events, it is inappropriate to suggest some of the themes that have already surfaced here. When a clearer picture of the chain of events emerges, which it will, that will be the time to then discuss the issues that are becoming apparent.

At present, we need to be aware that there are a significant number of people who will be grieving the loss of their friends and relatives, and at present, they have not yet been located. Trying to micro analyse the reasons for their loss, or worse to apportion blame at this time in inappropriate

fussyonion

Can I ask a possibly silly question?
I realise it might sound daft so I appreciate any responses:

If this was a terrorist attack, how could the terrorists get through airport security with devices/explosives, etc?

smurfjed

@fussyonion

Its not silly, but i don't think that any of us are going to answer that, but look at the size of CDG airport or any airport and think how difficult it is to make it 100% secure.

Pherekydes

fussyonion wrote: »

Can I ask a possibly silly question?
I realise it might sound daft so I appreciate any responses:

If this was a terrorist attack, how could the terrorists get through airport security with devices/explosives, etc?

Have a look at post #22. That's where that particular aircraft had been yesterday alone! Asmara (Eritrea) to Cairo, Cairo to Tunis and back, and Cairo to Paris and back.

martinsvi

smurfjed wrote: »

Seriously?

hey we have history of blokes yanking the stick all the way back stalling the plane, especially on the bus. Let me be perfectly clear - I'm not suggesting that this is what happened here, nor am I trying to speculate what the cause for the crash was. I am only trying to predict on which tree will media bark next in order to avoid any sensationalist crap.

Those of you who recognize my postings will probably recall at least two other occasions where I have asked to avoid being disrespectful for the crews and their families involved and I want to make it absolutely clear that nothing has changed in this regard

RebelButtMunch

http://avherald.com/h?article=4987fb09&opt=0

"At about 07:40L (05:40Z) Egyptair updated their statement saying, that the contact with the aircraft was lost 280km (151nm) from the Coast of Egypt at 02:30L (00:30Z). The crew comprised the captain, first officer, 5 cabin crew and 3 sky marshals. Amongst the passengers there were 30 Egyptians, 15 French, 2 Iraqis, 1 British, 1 Belgian, 1 Kuwaiti, 1 Saudi, 1 Sudanese, 1 Chadian, 1 Portugese, 1 Algerian and 1 Canadian."

Three sky marshals. Is that usual?

martinsvi

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Three sky marshals. Is that usual?

one of my friends is a flight attendant on a charter company that from time to time lease their crew and aircraft to Egypt and Tunisia. She said her company would have 2 to 3 marshals on board to protect flight attendants from sexual assaults.

smurfjed

Problem solved....

[font=Oxygen, Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]Republican Trump calls missing EgyptAir plane terrorist attackReutersRepublican presidential candidate Donald Trump said on Thursday the disappearance of an EgyptAir plane over the Mediterranean looked like an act of terrorism, making the link before authorities involved in the investigation did so.[/font]

Will they now invade France?

cdeb

Is it unusual that nobody's claimed responsibility for this?

After the last Egypt plane crash, ISIS were very quick out of the blocks claiming it, and there was official announcements saying "We can't rule anything out, and we can't confirm anything", until it did turn out to be them.

But nothing as yet along those lines (that I've seen).

(Though obviously terrorism has to be a strong possibility, sadly)

GBX

Egypt air saying wreckage has been found

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/733345553430503425

scudzilla

Was listening to Newstalk on way into work and they had an 'aviation expert' on, he said they were also thinking that reverse thrust may have been applied in error which caused the crash, is this even possible and if so, what would happen?

smurfjed

'aviation expert'

I love this title.... is there a course that you can do to become a radio "aviation expert"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004 because of this crash and the changes that were implement to avoid future events, I would say that the answer is no.

scudzilla

smurfjed wrote: »

I love this title.... is there a course that you can do to become a radio "aviation expert"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004 because of this crash and the changes that were implement to avoid future events, I would say that the answer is no.

that's why i put it in comma's, i didn't believe him

smurfjed

Huge disclaimer from me, I have never flown an A320..... but for some obscure reason I have all the manuals.

josip

GBX wrote: »

Egypt air saying wreckage has been found

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/733345553430503425

Egypt air have now retracted that statement.

billy few mates

scudzilla wrote: »

Was listening to Newstalk on way into work and they had an 'aviation expert' on, he said they were also thinking that reverse thrust may have been applied in error which caused the crash, is this even possible and if so, what would happen?

It's not possible to select reverse thrust in flight and as can be seen from the FCOM there are a whole lot of logic conditions that have to be met before selection is possible but that doesn't mean it would be impossible if the right (or wrong) set of failure conditions were met.
When I saw the graphic of the flight profile showing the rapid slew to the right my initial thoughts were a catastrophic engine or reverser failure followed by an over correction with rapid loss of control.