House size \ Cost ?

GerPen2015

Hi All ,

Complete novice here in terms of pricing a self build house , any suggestions of any sample guides I could look at or what are the basic cost prices I should know ? Would Ideally love to build a 3 bed house/bungalow in South Tipp. House or bungalow wouldn't matter so would go with whatever made more financial sense.

Gumbo

1500 per square meter and see if that scares you or entices you.

mrsWhippy

Based on a very recent QS estimate for a build in Dublin - for a well insulated block build, concrete slab first floor, ufh, triple glazing, mvhr, etc, we were looking at closer to 2k per sqm. PM if you want more details.

Czhornet

I was told to average E100/sq ft and that will give a fair estimate. This can be skewed by the type of finishes used in the house.

BryanF

Czhornet wrote: »

I was told to average E100/sq ft and that will give a fair estimate. This can be skewed by the type of finishes used in the house.

where in the country, who told you this, and did you pay for the advice?

Czhornet

BryanF wrote: »

where in the country, who told you this, and did you pay for the advice?

West of Ireland, a reputable builder and no I didnt pay.
10.76 sq ft per sq metre is E1100/sqm
Like i said, this can be offset by someone putting in marble flooring and fancy kitchens etc, etc.

My house is 2350 sq/ft and my mortgage of 250,000 covered it!

THE DON FANUCCI

GerPen2015 wrote: »

Hi All ,

Complete novice here in terms of pricing a self build house , any suggestions of any sample guides I could look at or what are the basic cost prices I should know ? Would Ideally love to build a 3 bed house/bungalow in South Tipp. House or bungalow wouldn't matter so would go with whatever made more financial sense.

Direct labour: 85euro per sq. foot. easy

893bet

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

Direct labour: 85euro per sq. foot. easy

This post is the reason no one will answer your questions.

You don't even know what block course dpc goes on but is an authority on full build cost.

85 might be close to possible for self build but the finish will be cheap and it will be far from easy.

I will be coming in at 110.

hexosan

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

Direct labour: 85euro per sq. foot. easy

This is a direct quote from "Johnny" the guy who props up the bar stool in the local pub.

JimmyMW

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

Direct labour: 85euro per sq. foot. easy

Its reckless trow away comments like this that have self builders doubting and going against the advise of the professionals and inevitability getting themselves into serious financial difficulty.

kevh1987

The 85e per square foot comes from AIB who Base there mortgage calculations on this figure. It's the minimum cost they believe a build can be completed for.

Tefral

kevh1987 wrote: »

The 85e per square foot comes from AIB who Base there mortgage calculations on this figure. It's the minimum cost they believe a build can be completed for.

Which is also complete rubbish out of AIB. They must be using that for the last 3 years id say.

min €120/sq. ft. if you want to be realistic about pricing and that is for builders finish.

sydthebeat

kevh1987 wrote: »

The 85e per square foot comes from AIB who Base there mortgage calculations on this figure. It's the minimum cost they believe a build can be completed for.

which, even as a baseline, doesnt cover professional fees, connection fees, development contributions, insurances or contingency.

I see prices quite regularly these days and theres no new house build under 3000 sq ft coming in under min €100 sq ft..

edit: and just clairfy... they dont "base their mortgages" on this figure... they simply do not accept figures below this as being realistic

Calahonda52

kevh1987 wrote: »

The 85e per square foot comes from AIB who Base there mortgage calculations on this figure. It's the minimum cost they believe a build can be completed for.

As my 6 year old grandson told me Sunday, after using a secondhand laptop for a while: Granddad!: Thats crap.
[He had a point: XP, the machine was bought in 2003:) ]

893bet

I guess things are not black and white and a price per square foot is the wrong way to estimate.

Some people like Don above are white. These people houses might be built for 80 quid per square foot. It prob won't meet building regulations, will have plenty of insulation but we are not gonna bother with MVHR or Airtightness etc. The finish will be cheap enough. It's will be a self build. Very little VAT will be paid on labour. There will be no build insurance or money wasted on Ber or airtight blower tests.

Some people are black. These peoples house cost 150+per square foot. These are contractor built one off houses. Finish will be to a better standard. Vat is paid and building regulations are meet etc. Money is invested by the house owner in professionals like a QS and maybe phpp etc.

Reality is most things are not black and white. I am very much a grey picking some of the best bits from each. For around 110 maybe 115-120 when outside is competed fully I will have a high end house that meets building regs (well most of them....). At it three years, and have spend a lot of time balancing the best value for money. Not always did I go with the cheapest labour price. Value for money is the key decider for me.

BryanF

It's interesting the use 'white' to explain shortcuts and the black economy


general mod note: we obey the law in this forum

893bet

BryanF wrote: »

It's interesting the use 'white' to explain shortcuts and the black economy


general mod note: we obey the law in this forum

Absolutely. But not everyone who are posting prices they paid for stuff are obeying the law. This leads to lots of confusion regarding prices as people are not comparing like with like.

You can swap the colours if you want.

BryanF

893bet wrote: »

Absolutely. But not everyone who are posting prices they paid for stuff are obeying the law. This leads to lots of confusion regarding prices as people are not comparing like with like.

You can swap the colours if you want.

The 'law' comment was more to avoid the next level of conversation about cash prices

The colours are up to you

kevh1987

I never said that I think there figures are anywhere near realistic. Just stating thats what there figures are. Building a house for 85e/sqft would give you a house but a very poorly finished one.

Metric Tensor

kevh1987 wrote: »

Building a house for 85e/sqft would give you a house but a very poorly finished one.

And almost certainly wouldn't comply with the Building Regulations!

jjames.mmurphy

Looking for costings for a story and a half house in Kilkenny (countryside).

Max size is 1880 sq ft
3 beds
2 baths (1 up 1 downstaris)
Costings for builders finish and fully finished (and if u can tell me the diff between the finishes)

House has to be split level to accommodate the site slope east to west, and large percolation area is required as the standard treatment system is not suitable, it has to be a Polishing Filter.

Tefral

jjames.mmurphy wrote: »

Looking for costings for a story and a half house in Kilkenny (countryside).

Max size is 1880 sq ft
3 beds
2 baths (1 up 1 downstaris)
Costings for builders finish and fully finished (and if u can tell me the diff between the finishes)

House has to be split level to accommodate the site slope east to west, and large percolation area is required as the standard treatment system is not suitable, it has to be a Polishing Filter.

Hire the services of a Quantity Surveyor.

jjames.mmurphy

I have an engineer who did the site survey and perculation etc... just waiting on the architect to complete the plans. But i was wondering if anyone had a rough estimate of the cost of building the house?

Also, can someone tell me the diff between a full finish and a builders finish ??

madmac187

Out of interest when people guesstimate building costs, I think when people say 85sq foot I don't think they include costs outside of building am I right ? Out of interest what costs are people getting for the supervision, working drawings, and all certs and QS?

TippBuilder

Hi, first time poster here.
Im a builder in South Tipperary.


Just to give people an idea, the last few straight forward new build houses we priced around 2000sqft came in around €80-85/sqft.
This would be including everything from clearing the site to a good quality builders finish.

You would also have:
- architect/engineer fees to draw plans, get planning, oversee project, sign off.
- planning fees and esb, water, telephone fees for connection.
- finishing/ furnishing the house


our normal quotation would be as follows:

ITEMS INCLUDED
Substructure - clearing site, foundations, 350mm solid rising walls, certified filling, radon barrier, 150mm kingspan floor insulation + 50mm perimeter insulation, 1 row of quinn-lite all around), 150mm power floated concrete floor.

Superstructure - 350mm cavity wall with 150mm xtratherm full fill insulation, stainless steel wall ties, standard concrete cills and heads, normally a couple of keystone lentils for arch over front door or long patio door, all necessary DPC. 1-2 chimneys.

First Floor - 9x2 ceiling joists with bridging at 400 centres, 18mm plywood floor

Roof - Cut roof as required, breathable felt, laths, tegral thrutone slates

Triple glazed uPVC MJ windows and doors

electrical - standard electrical spec

Plumbing and heating - 16 rad condensing oil boiler heating system, 3 zones, thermostats and try's, incl. oil tank. solar panels system. all plumbing to house, fitting only of sanitary ware (sanitary ware supplied by client)

Airtightness - membrane fixed to upstairs ceilings and taped to walls, taped installed around all windows and doors.

50mm insulated plasterboard to upstairs ceilings (skimmed), standard slab to downstairs ceilings

Plaster - scud, scratch, skim inside. scud scratch nap external. incl. reveals and plinths

Joinery - red deal window boards, doors, frames, architrave, skirting, stairs

Site works - builders drive ,all drainage, septic tank and percolation area, 1m footpath all around. ducting to ESB pole and telephone, water pipe to road.


ITEMS NOT INCLUDED
tiling, painting, wooden floors, stoves, fireplaces,heart, kitchen or utility units, wardrobes, attic stairs, tarmac, kerbs, landscaping, fencing, patios, entrance wall, gates, piers, supply of sanitary ware.


All the above info is just general and every house is different.


My main advise would be that a simple square design keeps the price per square foot down and the thermal performance and airtightness easy to achieve. (bay windows and complicated designs bring the price up)

We find that storey and a half houses tend to work out the cheapest per square foot to build, followed by two storey and then bungalows.
dormer houses are a nightmare to insulate correctly and achieve satisfactorily levels of airtightness and built correctly to the new regulations and standards work out to be the most expensive to build.

You could switch the oil boiler system and solar system for and Air to water Heat Pump with underfloor heating and would only work out marginally more expensive but with far lower annual running costs.

Also id advise adding MHRV to the house. it would add about €5000 to the cost but should see payback in energy cost saving over about 5-7 years along with much improved air quality ( which i don't think you can put a price on)



With the level of attention to detail that is required to build a good quality house (thermal performance, airtightness, good quality quality workmanship) and current builders prices (at least in this part of the country) i think anyone who isn't from a construction related background would be mad to try self-building.

Metric Tensor

Very detailed post TippBuilder. You're doing very well to do all that for 85/sq ft these days. I suppose a lot of the extra cost is in the finishes. Does that 85 include your profit or is your profit on top of that? Also are you talking ex VAT or inc VAT?

Two quick questions:

1. What sort of air-tightness values are you getting on say a typical two-storey?

2. Is the much of a price difference between hollowcore and timber at first floor level?

Gumbo

Tippbuilder, fancy a trip to Dublin to do my extension
You can stay in the house while working on it

TippBuilder

Thats including VAT and a small profit assuming everything goes to plan.
Prices are tight around here and have to cut prices to get work. Jobs need to be managed well now and theres not much room for error.

That is for a straight forward house built to the above spec which we find to be the most cost effective for a good standard.

Most of the projects we price come in over that though due to specification. we find a lot of people are looking for oak joinery, K-Rend plaster, concrete first floors, lots of spot lights which all add up and bring up the price considerably.

We find a lot of houses are spec'd for an insulated plasterboard on the inside of all the external walls with 100 insulation in the cavity but in order to get the house to a decent airtightness level you need to install a sealer coat to the blocks first which raise the cost of this option significantly over 150mm Xtratherm full fill.

1. We find two story are the easiest to achieve a good airtightness level on. by applying a membrane to the ceiling upstairs and taping to all the external walls, taping around all the windows and doors and a bit of attention to detail pointing and sealing around the joists we can achieve a level of 2m3/hr/m2 without too much effort. If the client was installing a MHRV system we would try and do a bit better.

2. Hollowcore does tend to work out quiet a bit more expensive by the time you take everything into account. ( some bigger walls to bear the concrete floors, some structural steel over windows/doors, supply and installation of hollowcore slabs, A142 mesh and 75mm screed poured on top, batten and counter batten underneath for services)
Ill post the rough price difference per square meter tomorrow as i know we've it priced both ways on a BOQ in the office for a job were doing at the moment.




Haha kceire, we already have a big house ongoing in Dublin at the moment however the rate was considerably higher on that one. There been too many mornings these past few months that I've been on the road at 5:30 AM because of it!

ht9zni1gs28crp

Tippbuilder I feel is a lot closer to reality than some figures banded about.

€80/sq ft is easily achievable if

Entire unit is less that 2000/sqft

Pre detail is key. No unknowns before digging foundations

SIMPLE design!!! No bay windows, no dormers....

A high standard is also achievable too. Passive is within reach to those who can commit more knowledge and time also.

Self build/direct labour/do it yourself as much as possible. Grunt work, manual labour you name it....

893bet

That is 80 to a builders finish, and a basic builders finish wth cheap timber work.

Not sure how skirting and frames and stairs are included when flooring isn't? One can't be completed without the other!

In any case if you don't spend an additional 30 per square foot (60k) between upgraded timber work, stairs upgrade, tiling, floors, kitchen, blinds, fitted timber work, painting, kitchen, sanitary

Then add in contribution fees. And outside works.

You will end up at 140-150 per all in.

Outside works etc.

ht9zni1gs28crp

That is your opinion and your current experience. Speaking personally and from personal achievement having come out the other side successfully it can be achieved all in and not 'cheap timber' work as you put it....

It all depends how much you are prepared to put into it personally yourself? Like I said before, the more time you are prepared to spend at it the better the outcome. If you are in the trade in any fashion then better again.
If you cant be arsed with the hassle a builder goes through then pay the above figures and rates. If you can be arsed and are prepared to make life sacrifices for one year of your life then €80 sq/ft is achievable ALL IN. I will say that isn't including gardens or gates BUT does include a garage.

893bet

All in for 80 I can't see it. maybe the odd person can achieve if they have a trade themselves and literally don't pay a penny of tax on any works at all but even at that I cant see anything but a cheap finish and not meeting regulations.

ht9zni1gs28crp

893bet wrote: »

All in for 80 I can't see it. maybe the odd person can achieve if they have a trade themselves and literally don't pay a penny of tax on any works at all but even at that I cant see anything but a cheap finish and not meeting regulations.

I'm not really bothered really if you can or cant see it. You keep missing the points I write on how to do it a certain way. 90% of 'self' builders aren't really self builders rather just a cheque writer. You are either prepared to learn or not, prepared to sacrifice or not or prepared to pay top dollar for the build.

I would rather see a proven house builder take on a project than a half hearted self builder.

893bet

miller_63 wrote: »

I'm not really bothered really if you can or cant see it. You keep missing the points I write on how to do it a certain way. 90% of 'self' builders aren't really self builders rather just a cheque writer. You are either prepared to learn or not, prepared to sacrifice or not or prepared to pay top dollar for the build.

I would rather see a proven house builder take on a project than a half hearted self builder.

Indeed but self builder or not materials cost the same. And my house is 75% materials cost I would say. So the saving is not there.

hexosan

893bet wrote: »

Indeed but self builder or not materials cost the same. And my house is 75% materials cost I would say. So the saving is not there.

I have to agree with the above. People keep harping on about doing work yourself, the labour is hands down the cheapest part of the build.
Materials are going up each month, I can't see the savings lads are claiming.

5mcdonag

Sorry but have to chime in. In the middle of self-building our 5900 sq. ft house and doing it all around 95 euro a square foot with high quality insulation, geo-thermal heating system, handmade kitchen. Materials can be sourced cheaper if you're prepared to put the real hard work in. I've shipped a lot of stuff in from the UK and Northern Ireland all because of difference in price - for example, I got my fireplace 1000 cheaper handmade from the UK. We had higher than normal excavation and site costs too. So, I could see how it could be done since I've come close with an extremely high spec.

Arc solutions

GerPen2015 wrote: »

Hi All ,

Complete novice here in terms of pricing a self build house , any suggestions of any sample guides I could look at or what are the basic cost prices I should know ? Would Ideally love to build a 3 bed house/bungalow in South Tipp. House or bungalow wouldn't matter so would go with whatever made more financial sense.

Practice Based in Tipp, the last few one off houses we have built cost €1150 plus vat, roughly €1300 per sqm. (im not sure why nobody wants to say if costs include vat or not!) This price would be for a decent finish, A3 rated, Air to water + heat exchanger, underfloor heating throughout, good quality electrical, /lighting design - decent €45 a sqm finishes including fitting. stoves. good wondows. These houses would usually have running cost of about €650-750 a year for electricity, to maintain 20 degrees all year round/ hot water etc.
It does not include
- kitchens, anything from €10,000-to whatever
- wardrobes- decent quality joinery will cost €1000 a liner meter.
- external site works, percolation, treatment plant, roads, landscaping. roughly €20,000 but could easily be 40 depending of site.

Calahonda52

893bet wrote: »

.... Value for money is the key decider for me.

And there's the rub: what is the basis for value for money.?
Am not knocking what you wrote, it's just that the value for money basis is as bad for the black and white brigade as cost.
Most folk look at initial capital cost as opposed to full lifetime costs.
Keep well

BryanF

5mcdonag wrote: »

Sorry but have to chime in. In the middle of self-building our 5900 sq. ft

5900sqft ??

Metric Tensor

The heatpump required for geothermal in a 5900 square foot house must might require three phase electricity?


edit: Did some research - maybe not!

BryanF

Metric Tensor wrote: »

The heatpump required for geothermal in a 5900 square foot house must might require three phase electricity?


edit: Did some research - maybe not!

Chp ??

JimmyMW

5mcdonag wrote: »

Sorry but have to chime in. In the middle of self-building our 5900 sq. ft house and doing it all around 95 euro a square foot with high quality insulation, geo-thermal heating system, handmade kitchen. Materials can be sourced cheaper if you're prepared to put the real hard work in. I've shipped a lot of stuff in from the UK and Northern Ireland all because of difference in price - for example, I got my fireplace 1000 cheaper handmade from the UK. We had higher than normal excavation and site costs too. So, I could see how it could be done since I've come close with an extremely high spec.

What you also need to consider is that you have massive sq/ft, you prob only have one heat pump, bigger and more expensive yes, but if you divide it per sq/ft your heat pump could be costing 2/3 of what a heat pump for a 2000sq/ft is costing per sq/ft. Also you have massive buying power in comparison to a normal sized build, your sq/ft price is going to be lower than normal.

Additionally your in the middle of a self build, you dont know exactly where your going to end up regarding costs yet. I am also in the middle of a self build and I would not pin exactly what I will end up with per sq/ft until I am completely finished.

Calahonda52

While we await the: I am doing x,000 sq feet at € YY, Attached please find a piece from the Irish times last week.
This report is aimed at trying to increase builders profits by having

1. the VAT rate reduced
2. development levies reduced
3. Cost/benefit of all building regs

Leaving aside the inherent bias that these 3 objectives will have on the report, to have any meaningful debate on costs we need to know whats included.

For example our friend buying from NI most lighly wont be paying VAT and wont have a builders margin, probably has no opportunity cost of finance included, and may be using direct, black economy labour.

Metric Tensor

No. 3 is a big one for me "Cost/benefit of all building regulations"

I think - particularly in terms of Part L - there are rationalisations that can be made to provide pretty much the same quality of housing (and quality of life) for substantially less. I think there might be simpler ways of meeting the various national and European agendas to which we (as a country) have signed up.

Metric Tensor

BryanF wrote: »

Chp ??

I was actually thinking of "enhanced" single phase. I think you can get that up to 29kVA vs the usual 12/16kVA.

I've only briefly looked into CHP and micro-CHP but any time I did the usage profiles didn't really stand up for domestic use. That may have changed though - and of course 5900 sq ft is pushing the traditional definition of domestic!

5mcdonag

BryanF wrote: »

5900sqft ??

Yep!

5mcdonag

JimmyMW wrote: »

What you also need to consider is that you have massive sq/ft, you prob only have one heat pump, bigger and more expensive yes, but if you divide it per sq/ft your heat pump could be costing 2/3 of what a heat pump for a 2000sq/ft is costing per sq/ft. Also you have massive buying power in comparison to a normal sized build, your sq/ft price is going to be lower than normal.

Additionally your in the middle of a self build, you dont know exactly where your going to end up regarding costs yet. I am also in the middle of a self build and I would not pin exactly what I will end up with per sq/ft until I am completely finished.

Possibly some discount for volume. However I also shop around a lot and find huge price differences. Also I'm still only a one off build so don't get a discount like a builder might I'd reckon.
I doubt my heat pump is cheaper per sq ft. My total cost is coming up on 43K.
I did approximate my sq ft cost. However, we are on the home stretch. Kitchen is being fitted. Floors are almost done. Excavation work is done. Materials are already bought for finishing. So pretty good approximation considering there's nothing left to buy.

5mcdonag

Calahonda52 wrote: »

While we await the: I am doing x,000 sq feet at € YY, Attached please find a piece from the Irish times last week.
This report is aimed at trying to increase builders profits by having

1. the VAT rate reduced
2. development levies reduced
3. Cost/benefit of all building regs

Leaving aside the inherent bias that these 3 objectives will have on the report, to have any meaningful debate on costs we need to know whats included.

For example our friend buying from NI most lighly wont be paying VAT and wont have a builders margin, probably has no opportunity cost of finance included, and may be using direct, black economy labour.

Not sure if that refers to me. Stuff I've bought from the UK I've paid Vat on as I'm not a registered business. Am also using all above-board trades. Opportunity cost of finance: what exactly your refer to would need to be clearer!

Think if they did what the UK does and allow self builders to reclaim vat, it would help the industry as a whole too

5mcdonag

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I was actually thinking of "enhanced" single phase. I think you can get that up to 29kVA vs the usual 12/16kVA.

I've only briefly looked into CHP and micro-CHP but any time I did the usage profiles didn't really stand up for domestic use. That may have changed though - and of course 5900 sq ft is pushing the traditional definition of domestic!

It's a Heliotherm HP12S 16W-M-WEB so no CHP. 16w and no difference for the electric. Heats the house through underfloor heating and the hot water.

BryanF

5mcdonag wrote: »

Yep!

Economy's of scale

Your sqm rate is meaningless considering your self-build is over 3 times the size of an average house.

But fare play, that's some gaff!

5mcdonag

BryanF wrote: »

Economy's of scale

Your sqm rate is meaningless considering your self-build is over 3 times the size of an average house.

But fare play, that's some gaff!

Lol! Maybe that's true! We wanted smaller but planners made things so difficult that we ended up caving to their ideas and almost 1000 sq ft more was added on! Welcome to Ireland!

Thinking about it there though. My bro in law was building the same time as us. When I would suggest a place that does something cheaper or similar, they would listen but, ultimately , would end up going with the easiest, least work possible. I do think builders are similar. I know some of my trades were surprised at prices I got for certain materials as well. So that does cause differences in price point too when different people may be willing to put in more work, time and effort into pricing.