looking for bank statements and private info

marykitty47

Hi all went to view a house today as well as the usual references photo id they also want a 3 month bank statement and a NDI calculation so a break down of what we earn monthly our loan repayments and other repayments and our net disposable income....I'm a bit annoyed because they won't accept the application without this info

R.D. aka MR.D

marykitty47 wrote: »

Hi all went to view a house today as well as the usual references photo id they also want a 3 month bank statement and a NDI calculation so a break down of what we earn monthly our loan repayments and other repayments and our net disposable income....I'm a bit annoyed because they won't accept the application without this info

Yeah, same here. I didn't submit one application recently because not only did they want the usual stuff, they wanted DOB, 3 months statements for both of us. And they said they would have to call my boss to confirm i really work there. I thought that was a step too far.

Baby01032012

Is this for a rental?

marykitty47

Yes for a rental property

marykitty47

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Is this for a rental?

Yes

lotmc

Was talking to a relative in the US recently and he mentioned that this was becoming the norm over there. Landlords are afraid of declining any potential tenant in case they take an action against the landlord for discrimination. Such alleged discrimination could be based upon race / gender / whatever. So, to protect themselves, landlords are now increasingly seeking bank statements and financial info from all applicants in order to transparently base their selection on analysis of that info. They feel safer doing this, and more protected against alleged discrimination. It is not illegal to discriminate based upon ability to pay on time, yet.
I can see it becoming more common in Ireland.......

testicles

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theteal

Fairly standard over here. Landlords just trying to protect their investment, can't really blame them.

Oral Surgeon

As a landlord, I never ask for this sort of personal info. I wouldn't give it to anyone myself so why would I ask for it?
The reality is that these days someone could falsify bank statements anyway or someone could have lots of money and still decide to mess you about and not pay...

You are also giving away your ability to pay info for if/when the rent review comes....

April 73

Ten years ago I rented a property in Dublin to an Italian couple. They came armed with all of that info to the viewing. It was obviously something they expected to have to show.

It's incredibly difficult to get a troublesome or non-paying tenant out of a property. It can take over a year & be hugely costly financially & emotionally.
I think more & more landlords will require extra background information on potential tenants, before they had over the keys of a property on the basis of a signature on a lease & two months rent. It's just too risky.

Gumbo

testicles wrote: »

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Is it illegal if it's giving up voluntarily?
Data protection complaints are for breaches of personal data.

You'll either do it and have a chance at the property or you won't and won't.

DPC hasnt a role here imo

GreatDefector

theteal wrote: »

Fairly standard over here. Landlords just trying to protect their investment, can't really blame them.

Tenants just trying to protect their personal, private information, can't really blame them

SteM

Love it when people start shouting about the data protection act. Why would this be an issue under data protection? The landlord has asked for this information. It's up to the OP whether the he gives it or not. There's no law being broken asking for the information though.

SteM

GreatDefector wrote: »

Tenants just trying to protect their personal, private information, can't really blame them

No one forcing them to hand the information over though. Everyone is welcome to walk away after being asked for the information.

stoplooklisten

It's not illegal to ask, but once the landlord is in possession of the information, he becomes a data controller and has responsibilities under the data protection act to store and use the information properly.

Ask him for a look at his data protection policy

Rob Thomas

Step too far in my view.

I'd certainly never consider asking for it. But I'm not in the Dublin market.

Dublin is becoming a different animal and I suppose people are becoming more and more desperate for suitable rentals.

If I were a tenant I think I'd rather be asked for 3 months deposit than give up this level of personal documents.

testicles

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April 73

The LL may not keep the info. He may ask the tenant to produce it, look at it & decide whether or not he is happy that the level of income & expenditure would support the tenant's ability to pay rent.
If he doesn't keep or store the information data protection is irrelevant. Unless his brain counts as a data storage unit.

stoplooklisten

April 73 wrote: »

The LL may not keep the info. ...

This is true, we don't know what he is going to do with it. To cover himself it would be quite simple for the LL to have a DP policy that states


No information will be kept or stored. The information will be used for xxxx.

Graham

kceire wrote: »

Data protection complaints are for breaches of personal data.

That's only one of the types of complaint.

Others would include

Excessive information
Non registration as a data controller
Inaccurate information
Unnecessary retention of information
Security of Information stored......

testicles

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Absolute madness imo, a LL shouldn't be allowed to ask for any more than a reference from employer and previous LL along with a months rent and a deposit of one months rent.

Don't give people leases and kick them inside the first 6 months (before part 4 kicks in) if they are showing any sign of trouble.

Graham

Danica Obedient Pinprick wrote: »

Absolute madness imo, a LL shouldn't be allowed to ask for any more than a reference from employer and previous LL along with a months rent and a deposit of one months rent.

Don't give people leases and kick them inside the first 6 months (before part 4 kicks in) if they are showing any sign of trouble.

Ending the tenancy inside the first 6 months is relatively straightforward. Getting tenants out if they refuse to move, isn't. It's understandable that landlords seek to avoid that scenario in the first place by thoroughly vetting potential tenants.

That's not to say I particularly like the approach, but I do understand it.

Milly33

We had this recently going to see a place.. I just said I didnt really feel comfortable given that kinda of information to view the property..They said grand ne stress, we went to view it in the end.. I wouldnt mind given them maybe a copy of wage slips with details blocked out but not banking details but as mentioned it is up to you.. You dont have to do anything

Graham

Graham wrote: »

Ending the tenancy inside the first 6 months is relatively straightforward. Getting tenants out if they refuse to move, isn't. It's understandable that landlords seek to avoid that scenario in the first place by thoroughly vetting potential tenants.

That's not to say I particularly like the approach, but I do understand it.

They have no part 4 protections in the first few months, if they won't move change the locks and leave their stuff in the garden.

Or just rent rooms seperately.

newacc2015

Danica Obedient Pinprick wrote: »

They have no part 4 protections in the first few months, if they won't move change the locks and leave their stuff in the garden.

Or just rent rooms seperately.

That is still an illegal eviction. Even if you don't have part 4, they have rights

If you give them licensee agreements, you can't claim mortgage interest relief

Regardless of where people agree with the what OP was asked. Look at it from the standpoint of the LL. They want to put their asset which could be worth anywhere from €180k to 1 million in Dublin in the hands of someone who is responsible. IMO financial responsible is a good indicator of that.

There is no solid way for a landlord to check if a tenant is credit worthy other than their bank statements. If a tenant doesnt pay their rent. A landlord can end up 12 months out of pocket waiting for the PRTB to start the eviction process.

If you dont agree with the LL's policy, find somewhere else. A basic loan from your CU will ask for the exact same things. They may only have a few hundred to loose and can report your default on your credit rating. The landlord doesnt have any of that

testicles

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Graham

testicles wrote: »

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I though some credit unions were now members of the ICB.

There is nothing to stop prospective landlords asking for this information.

_Kaiser_

No chance would I give this level of information to effectively some randomer that I probably will never see unless there's an issue with the property. A work reference, reference from previous LL and deposit should be enough.

If LL's are that concerned about their "investment" that the above isn't good enough then maybe landlording just isn't for them.

Flip it around.. how does a tenant know the LL has the ability to pay the mortgage and they won't get a letter through the door telling them the bank is turfing them out, or some vulture fund has bought the place and is hiking the rent significantly.

Graham

You are under no obligation to provide a potential landlord with anything at all.

Likewise, nothing at all to stop the landlord moving straight onto the next potential tenant.

dr.fuzzenstein

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

No chance would I give this level of information to effectively some randomer that I probably will never see unless there's an issue with the property. A work reference, reference from previous LL and deposit should be enough.

If LL's are that concerned about their "investment" that the above isn't good enough then maybe landlording just isn't for them.

Flip it around.. how does a tenant know the LL has the ability to pay the mortgage and they won't get a letter through the door telling them the bank is turfing them out, or some vulture fund has bought the place and is hiking the rent significantly.

Yes, i think it may not be unreasonable to demand some paperwork from the landlord, are they the registered owner, are they who they say they are, do they pay tax, copies of business accounts and maybe garda vetting to make sure you're not renting from some tax-dodging fly-by-night that might default, you'll end up on the street and out of pocket as regards deposit. And the deposit should be lodged with a neutral agency anyway, because otherwise its just beer money for the landlord.

_Kaiser_

Graham wrote: »

You are under no obligation to provide a potential landlord with anything at all.

Likewise, nothing at all to stop the landlord moving straight onto the next potential tenant.

LL's can't have it both ways is the point. Sure they want to minimise their risk, but without giving the tenant the same level of assurances - who at the end has far more to lose as it may be the LL's investment, but it'll be the tenant's home.

If a LL wants a professional reliable tenant it's not unreasonable that they be expected to behave in a similar manner.

LiamoSail

I think it's a reasonable enough request given the risks a LL must take.

I'd want to see that a potential tenant can afford the property and is diligent in paying bills on time.

It seems reasonable enough to request proof of this, particularly given the potential tenant is under no obligation to provide anything.

I don't rent, but if I did, this wouldn't be an issue for me tbh

Baby01032012

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yes, i think it may not be unreasonable to demand some paperwork from the landlord, are they the registered owner, are they who they say they are, do they pay tax, copies of business accounts and maybe garda vetting to make sure you're not renting from some tax-dodging fly-by-night that might default, you'll end up on the street and out of pocket as regards deposit. And the deposit should be lodged with a neutral agency anyway, because otherwise its just beer money for the landlord.

You can demand all you want, you would have no right to the information. The financial affairs of the landlord are not the tenants business. The latter re deposit j agree with, however the consequences of a bad tenant for a landlord are loss of income, unable to remove tenant, damage to a valuable asset. It's a business for a landlord so they need to ensure security of that investment and security of the person they turn the investment over to. For a tenant a bad landlord, they can still take to the Prtb, they have security of tenure, they can give valid notice to terminate the lease.

MarkAnthony

It comes down to there being no proper credit referencing system in Ireland.

I ask for this sort of info not quite to this degree, but proof of income etc. However as I've said before I've no problem with it being a two way street and if the tenant wants to see my profit and loss account on the apartment they're welcome to it. It's reasonable to expect to see proof the mortgage is up to date IMHO. If anyone want to know if I subscribe to brazzers on a regular basis then they're quite welcome to know that too.

LL/Agents/Tenants are simply trying to protect themselves. People love to create little issues for themselves on principle. Frankly it's a bit mad considering if anyone really wants your personal info it's usually easily accessed. The majority of people would put their liufe stories up on social media anyway.

Frankly if you don't like it, it's your right, it's my and others right not to rent to you.

April 73

That's exactly the point. Provide the info or don't, the choice is up to you as a prospective tenant in a difficult market.

newacc2015

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yes, i think it may not be unreasonable to demand some paperwork from the landlord, are they the registered owner, are they who they say they are, do they pay tax, copies of business accounts and maybe garda vetting to make sure you're not renting from some tax-dodging fly-by-night that might default, you'll end up on the street and out of pocket as regards deposit. And the deposit should be lodged with a neutral agency anyway, because otherwise its just beer money for the landlord.

You demand what you like from the landlord. But in this market you have no upper hand with the landlord. You can ask what you like from the LL, but he will say no and move onto the other 30 potential tenants looking at the same property. Have you ever seen the tax defaulters list? There is a fair better chance your GP is on it, than your landlord. In fact most tax dodgers are in the medical industry and not LL's. Someone tax affairs are not your concern.

You must not be too familiar with the rental industry. That horror story you have made up is not in anyway the norm. The UK has a deposit protection scheme, about 30% of LL's don't use it. I looked at the facts on the PRTB website before. Out of 140k tenancies a year. Not even 0.31% of all tenacies had their deposits unfairly withheld. The PRTB are going to hire dozens of people prevent a few hundred cases of unfairly withheld deposits which is insane

In fact the PRTB has more disputes from LL's over tenants not paying rent

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, a landlord is a business. Its the same as buying something of eBay, you'd want to be completely loola to buy something expensive off a seller that has negative or no feedback.
The same should go for landlords, the problem in this country is that a lot of them are accidental landlords and even more are chancers. Would anyone pay for a professional service as vitally important as the roof over their head from some fly by night cowboy who might be minutes away from foreclosure or has already signed the property over to a vulture fund and they're preparing to turf your out as the ink dries on the rental contract? And no way to check them out?
Quite frankly I would prefer to rent from a larger, professional company who specialise in large scale rentals, who can back up their operations with paperwork and are accountable, rather than renting a shabby flat in Rathmines of some random bloke who suddenly wants to see my birth cert, doctor's report and bank statements.
A lot of landlords will now howl "we can demand what we want and we don't want to be landlords anyway!". Yes, well the rental market here needs a massive shake up. Maybe larger corporations buying lots of rental space is a good thing. They have the financial power to survive on lower profit margins, have service contracts with maintenance companies and the necessary staff to be on top of the paperwork, unlike Mr Random, who works it out on his kitchen table with a calculator and a pencil.
It goes both ways indeed.

usernamegoes

SteM wrote: »

Love it when people start shouting about the data protection act. Why would this be an issue under data protection? The landlord has asked for this information. It's up to the OP whether the he gives it or not. There's no law being broken asking for the information though.

SteM wrote: »

No one forcing them to hand the information over though. Everyone is welcome to walk away after being asked for the information.

The data protection acts certainly have a role here. This type of information should be be asked for by a landlord or their representatives to prospective tenants.

MarkAnthony

usernamegoes wrote: »

The data protection acts certainly have a role here. This type of information should be be asked for by a landlord or their representatives to prospective tenants.

While the data protection act may have a role to play there is certainly nothing to stop an estate agent registering as a data what not and complying with the acts, just as an EA would be able, if we had one, to credit check prospective tenants.

The issue is, as usual, that Ireland is the wild west in relation to these things and when the legislature can't even be arsed to do what it normally does - lift legislation from our neighbouring jurisdiction - we end up with everyone freelancing.

All that aside, I completely reject the notion that this information should not be requested. I concede it should be processed in the correct manner. If a renter doesn't like it there's the option to buy or Air BnB or other short term rentals that don't require this information.

dr.fuzzenstein

But here's the thing. Who do I hand this information over to? Mr Random who administers his property empire of one grotty flat from his kitchen desk, or a reputable company that is accountable, has an administration structure and a data protection statement? What's to stop Mr R. from posting my statements on his Facebook page?
Tenants will have to get a lot more savvy regards randomers posing as landlords.

R.D. aka MR.D

I recently got rejected from a place after supplying a bank statement showing funds of almost twice the amount of money required to pay the rent for 12 months.

I'm employed but my husband isn't. Surely these agents should be using their common sense and seeing that if I alone have the ability to save that much, it isn't much of a risk to take on my husband who isn't currently working simply because he has only moved here form the US. Perfectly employable and well educated with plenty of his own money but taking a little longer to get on his feet.

Since then, I've been reluctant to supply all this personal information because it doesn't seem to making that much difference to them. I drew the line at them actually wanting a personal phone number for my boss. I work in an extremely busy start-up and my boss doesn't have the time to be dealing with my personal matters.

LiamoSail

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What's to stop Mr R. from posting my statements on his Facebook page?
.

The trust works both ways. The LL may post your statements on FB, and you could wreck his house and potentially remain for years without paying a penny in rent.

I still think its the LL who's shouldrring the bulk of the risk

If you don't trust him with your statements, he'd probably be mad to trust you with his investment

geeky

SteM wrote: »

Love it when people start shouting about the data protection act. Why would this be an issue under data protection? The landlord has asked for this information. It's up to the OP whether the he gives it or not. There's no law being broken asking for the information though.

Actually, the data protection commissioner published a case study where a private sector provider (a gym) was looking for excessive information from a potential member. There is a precedent, therefore, for the commissioner coming in where someone is withholding goods or services without the other person giving over personal data, whatever the merits of this issue. Sorry I don't have the link, on a phone.

Technocentral

SteM wrote:

No one forcing them to hand the information over though. Everyone is welcome to walk away after being asked for the information.

Yeah and live on the streets.

Technocentral

Technocentral wrote: »

Yeah and live on the streets.

Most LL's still aren't getting above their station enough to be asking this sort of stuff.

I've a friend who recently moved into what is arguably the best apartment complex in the country, first letting of luxury apartments and he was only asked for employer and previous LL references along with one months deposit and one months rent in advance. No bank statements or other private information that no LL should have the right to even ask for never mind actually get their hands on.

If everyone who rents is on the same page and everyone refuses to give this info then it won't be asked for. People who hand it over too easily are causing it to be asked for more.

Maireadio

Graham wrote: »

Likewise, nothing at all to stop the landlord moving straight onto the next potential tenant.

True but you could be missing out on a good tenant. It might be a tough rental market out there but the best tenants finanically-speaking (which a landlord could likely ascertain from their jobs) will still have their pick of properties and can go for the one who doesn't want a nosy at their bank statements.

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I drew the line at them actually wanting a personal phone number for my boss.

Christ, that landlord needs to get a grip! :eek:

SteM

Technocentral wrote: »

Yeah and live on the streets.

Or look for another apartment where the landlord doesn't require this information.

DivingDuck

This is the reason that every good tenant in Ireland should be in favour of tighter controls and greater measures to allow landlords to remove problem tenants and pushing for such controls to be brought in.

This issue is seen as a "landlord's problem" so nobody but landlords care, but the ultimate reality is that one way or another, the inability to deal effectively and quickly with non-paying or anti-social tenants will eventually end up penalising tenants just as much as landlords.

As someone who is very protective of their personal information, I have every sympathy with concerns over this situation, but until landlords are protected by the law, they're going to have to keep coming up with ways to protect themselves, instead. In the current rental market, where demand vastly outstrips supply, you're either going to have to suck it up and supply what is asked for, or be prepared to wait until something comes up which doesn't ask for these things (which could take a while, and may attract more interest as other like yourself may be waiting for such an opportunity).

What you could do is make a request to come in and offer this information in person to verify your eligibility and then take the documents away with you if you're uncomfortable with them retaining your details (as I would be myself). Other than that, I can't give much advice.

LiamoSail

Tenants that don't pay have far to much protection. If this protection that necessitates LL's to look for such information.

If there was a system whereby those refusing to pay rent could be removed from property's quickly and efficiently, it would serve both LL's and tennants far better