What would a Gaelic Ireland look like?

I've been reading "A Path to Freedom" by Michael Collins (excellent book by the way) he talks an awful lot about reviving our Gaelic ways and customs and how we were "degraded and feeble imitators of our tyrants which imitated the enemy who despised us".

What if Collins survived the Civil War and managed to implement his dream of a Gaelic Ireland on modern terms, what would that actually entail?

BBDBB

like the worst theme pub you ever saw

milehip

Bastard offspring of Dev and Nuala O'Faolain dancing
At crossroads drinking hot poteens and smoking clay pipe to beat the band

imme

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've been reading "A Path to Freedom" by Michael Collins (excellent book by the way) he talks an awful lot about reviving our Gaelic ways and customs and how we were "degraded and feeble imitators of our tyrants which imitated the enemy who despised us".

What if Collins survived the Civil War and managed to implement his dream of a Gaelic Ireland on modern terms, what would that actually entail?

Was he looking to re-introduce the Brehon Laws or what?
He had worked in Britain before the Rising, so had a good understanding of the UK of GB & Ireland.

Never knew Collins had written a book.
Why didn't he wrote it in Irish?

HamsterFace

imme wrote: »

Was he looking to re-introduce the Brehon Laws or what?
He had worked in Britain before the Rising, so had a good understanding of the UK of GB & Ireland.

Never knew Collins had written a book.
Why didn't he wrote it in Irish?

First I heard of it too

Iwasfrozen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've been reading "A Path to Freedom" by Michael Collins (excellent book by the way) he talks an awful lot about reviving our Gaelic ways and customs and how we were "degraded and feeble imitators of our tyrants which imitated the enemy who despised us".

What if Collins survived the Civil War and managed to implement his dream of a Gaelic Ireland on modern terms, what would that actually entail?

We'd speak Irish but it's hard to imagine much else different.

imme

imme wrote: »

Was he looking to re-introduce the Brehon Laws or what?
He had worked in Britain before the Rising, so had a good understanding of the UK of GB & Ireland.

Never knew Collins had written a book.
Why didn't he wrote it in Irish?

I'm not too sure, 'tis what I'm wondering myself. The Path to Freedom is a compilation of his articles and speeches on various topics. Great book.

Mint Aero

Probably wouldn't have as many degenerates in garish loud exhaust small engine fart arse granny cars and the cork accent wouldn't have decayed into the gutteral crow squawk that it is.

I'd imagine we'd be more like the Danish in general except without the height.

Iwasfrozen

Mint Aero wrote: »

Probably wouldn't have as many degenerates in garish loud exhaust small engine fart arse granny cars and the cork accent wouldn't have decayed into the gutteral crow squawk that it is.

I'd imagine we'd be more like the Danish in general except without the height.

lol why Danes in particular?

imme

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol why Danes in particular?

cause they're fine looking men.

Richard Hillman

The agenda to push Gaelic Ways and Customs probably would have ended up becoming radicalised, with Germany being the benchmark of promoting nationalism. We probably would have become a friend of Mr Hitler.

Speedwell

And so what would I make of it, being an American wife of an Irishman? Would I stand out like a sore thumb because of my foreign ways and accent, or would I be resented and despised because at the age of nearly 50 I would look like an idiot trying to learn the language and customs of the land?

Well, I already know that, thanks. I get laughed at by the locals when I say I want to learn Irish, and they ask why, and I look around theatrically and say, "Oh, I thought this was Ireland". I'm a classical musician and I had to leave my bloody piano behind in America a couple years ago when I moved here and I'm miserable and I want to learn to play a traditional instrument or three and participate in gigs... if I see you at bodhran school this summer and you make an unkind comment about me, I can give as good as I get, Paddy. I plan to apply for citizenship at the first opportunity, because that is what you should do when you intend to make a new country your permanent home.

Teach me what you love best about the country and what you would like to see former outsiders love. That includes the Gaelic and the non-Gaelic parts, the historic and the modern, the country and the city. Use your words and explain what they mean and how to pronounce them. Please.

Permabear

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AMKC

@ OP Have you seen the 3 part program Wrecking the Rising that TG4 had on. Its highly recommended. I think you would find the ending very interesting. I really enjoyed all 3 parts and it is funny too Its also really well done and acted too.

The_Valeyard

Ahh the old country, where the songs would melt your face.

Speedwell

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Ahh the old country, where the songs would melt your face.

I'll never forget an American comedian writing many years ago about the time he played some old traditional songs to a group of drunk American Irish at a party on St Patrick's Day night. "Ah, that's the beautiful Gaelic", they wept. Turned out the wag was playing melancholy old Yiddish tunes, sung in Yiddish.

I can't even untangle all the threads of that one, but I often used it as a music teacher (and an American Jew) to poke gentle fun at people who thought music wasn't a universal human thing.

Arsemageddon

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We'd speak Irish but it's hard to imagine much else different.

You're probably right. Collins might have removed a few more of the trappings and symbols of British rule and may have been more forceful in dealing with the boundary commission, but there was no way we were going to go back living in crannogs.

Speedwell

Arsemageddon wrote: »

You're probably right. Collins might have removed a few more of the trappings and symbols of British rule and may have been more forceful in dealing with the boundary commission, but there was no way we were going to go back living in crannogs.

Nor should you have. Ireland isn't a theme park reservation full of primitives at an arrested state of cultural and economic development.

Notwithstanding, am I correct in assuming that a lot of cultural damage had been done by that point anyway, and that you would have had to reach even farther back to pull out a characteristically Irish national identity? Educate me, I'm a clueless Yank and my husband hates answering questions of this sort. Nor do I blame him, really. Nor do I mean to imply that Ireland does not have a characteristically Irish identity; it's just not the same as it might have been if things had been different.

Dyr

milehip wrote: »

Bastard offspring of Dev and Nuala O'Faolain dancing
At crossroads drinking hot poteens and smoking clay pipe to beat the band

The Handy thing about phrases like "comely maidens" and "dancing at the crossroads" is that they give you an easy way to spot people who dont have the first clue about the history of that era and are just spouting second hand cliches

Esel

Bambi wrote: »

The Handy thing about phrases like "comely maidens" and "dancing at the crossroads" is that they give you an easy way to spot people who dont have the first clue about the history of that era and are just spouting second hand cliches

"Are you coming into the field?"

Eugene Norman

Permabear wrote: »

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Yawn.

feargale

Permabear wrote: »

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Time to invoke the Godwin cliche? :eek:

Eugene Norman

Speedwell wrote: »

Nor should you have. Ireland isn't a theme park reservation full of primitives at an arrested state of cultural and economic development.

Notwithstanding, am I correct in assuming that a lot of cultural damage had been done by that point anyway, and that you would have had to reach even farther back to pull out a characteristically Irish national identity? Educate me, I'm a clueless Yank and my husband hates answering questions of this sort. Nor do I blame him, really. Nor do I mean to imply that Ireland does not have a characteristically Irish identity; it's just not the same as it might have been if things had been different.

Some people point to the revitalisation of Hebrew. Easier for Israel because it needed a common language, nevertheless most Jewish migrants to Israel weren't Hebrew speakers for generations. Most European Jews spoke the language of their country and maybe Yiddish (which is a Germanic dialect). Was that false? I don't think so.

Eugene Norman

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The agenda to push Gaelic Ways and Customs probably would have ended up becoming radicalised, with Germany being the benchmark of promoting nationalism. We probably would have become a friend of Mr Hitler.

Yes because all small nationalisms end up like hitler.

It was always intended to have two official languages, both English and Irish. Even if Irish had won as the common tongue, we would still be fluent English speakers.

Speedwell

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Some people point to the revitalisation of Hebrew. Easier for Israel because it needed a common language, nevertheless most Jewish migrants to Israel weren't Hebrew speakers for generations. Most European Jews spoke the language of their country and maybe Yiddish (which is a Germanic dialect). Was that false? I don't think so.

Well, I can't see what else they could possibly have spoken. I wasn't attempting to draw parallels, but it's interesting and thought-provoking that you do.

Arsemageddon

Speedwell wrote: »

Nor should you have. Ireland isn't a theme park reservation full of primitives at an arrested state of cultural and economic development.

Notwithstanding, am I correct in assuming that a lot of cultural damage had been done by that point anyway, and that you would have had to reach even farther back to pull out a characteristically Irish national identity? Educate me, I'm a clueless Yank and my husband hates answering questions of this sort. Nor do I blame him, really. Nor do I mean to imply that Ireland does not have a characteristically Irish identity; it's just not the same as it might have been if things had been different.

People can have an overly idealised and simplistic view of past as something on to which they project their own beliefs and aspirations. The truth of the matter is we can never really know what it was like to live back then and we can never unlearn all the that we know of our present world. For example - try explaining to a twenty year old that back in the recent past there was no internet or mobile phones and they will look at you like you're a caveman. There is great line at the start of the novel the The Go-Between - 'The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there'.

For better or worse Ireland was tied with Britain for centuries and there is no way that can now be changed. Even before then we were always influenced by people and events outside of Ireland -agriculture was brought here from Europe during the Neolithic (4000 BC), then there was metal-working (2500 BC), then there was Christianity (300-400 AD) and so on.

We do have our own identity, culture and traditions, but they clearly been influenced by the wider world. In that regard we are no different to anyone else.

Eugene Norman

Speedwell wrote: »

Well, I can't see what else they could possibly have spoken. I wasn't attempting to draw parallels, but it's interesting and thought-provoking that you do.

English. Yiddish. There are lots of languages they could have chosen.

the restoration of Hebrew was a bold experiment in many ways.

By the way an Irish teacher of mine used often to use Israel as an example of how a country or people could revitalise a language and wonder why we couldn't. He didn't have an answer, but it must in part have been a lack of will amongst the Irish in general to speak anything other than English, from the famine on it was seen as backward.

But Hebrew was (correct me if mistaken) always the language of the educated, rabbis etc.

Arsemageddon

Speedwell wrote: »

Well, I can't see what else they could possibly have spoken. I wasn't attempting to draw parallels, but it's interesting and thought-provoking that you do.

I think the point Eugene Norman is making is that Hebrew was pretty much a dead language, but because Jews were coming from all across Europe (Yiddish was only spoken in the east) and the Arab world they need to have a common language they relearnt Hebrew.

Eugene Norman

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I think the point Eugene Norman is making is that Hebrew was pretty much a dead language, but because Jews were coming from all across Europe (Yiddish was only spoken in the east) and the Arab world they need to have a common language they relearnt Hebrew.

Yes. It was a necessity for Israel to have a common language while we already had one in use for most, English. And not just any language the world's most dominant language. Maybe if we had been invaded by Hungarians we would have relearnt Irish.

I still believe that Irish (despite the romantic nationalistic revival) was considered backward by many, even country people. After all we effectively chose to not speak it.

Speedwell

Arsemageddon wrote: »

There is great line at the start of the novel the The Go-Between - 'The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there'.

I love that. And so true.

For better or worse Ireland was tied with Britain for centuries and there is no way that can now be changed. Even before then we were always influenced by people and events outside of Ireland -agriculture was brought here from Europe during the Neolithic (4000 BC), then there was metal-working (2500 BC), then there was Christianity (300-400 AD) and so on.

We do have our own identity, culture and traditions, but they clearly been influenced by the wider world. In that regard we are no different to anyone else.

Good point. I think I had in the back of my mind the efforts of the US government to forcibly "assimilate" the American Indian people.

Arsemageddon

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I still believe that Irish (despite the romantic nationalistic revival) was considered backward by many, even country people. After all we effectively chose to not speak it.

There is definitely a bit of truth to that - it always crops up in the Irish is Rubbish threads. That said, the way it is taught in school is just appalling .

Speedwell

Arsemageddon wrote: »

There is definitely a bit of truth to that - it always crops up in the Irish is Rubbish threads. That said, the way it is taught in school is just appalling .

There's Duolingo, though I have not actually started trying to learn Irish there yet. And there's Benny Lewis of Fluent in 3 Months. I think I need a native speaker to correct my pronunciation and I'm not that picky which dialect I learn so long as it's consistent. But I'd be interested in hearing what informed people think of the online resources.

Esel

Smaller fields; bigger potatoes; more bacon and cabbage. A better class of gombeen. More cattle raids. More ghosts, less (or no) ghost estates. Life: lower expectancy, but more quality. Saltier butter, more fish in the diet. Better hedges, smaller schools in same.

Níos mó misneach ag an gnáth duine.

Your Face

I don't know.
Same-ish?

CrabRevolution

Permabear wrote: »

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If that's the best evidence you have for our resemblance to the third Reich, it's fair to say we were never close to being like Nazi Germany whatsoever.

Permabear

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Eugene Norman

Permabear wrote: »

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Three distortions there.

1) you've moved from the war (where you claimed we pretty much supported Nazzism) to the post war era. I'm not aware of Nazis sheltered post war in Ireland. I am aware of Nazis and rocket scientists sheltered by the US. Of course not all soldiers working for or fighting for the Reich were war criminals.
2) you've conflated this with banning Jewish immigration pre war. The US and the U.K. banned Jewish immigration pre war. It wasn't a time of open borders
3) you've conflated an illegal (and during the war interned) organisation with the state.

Almost every post out of you is intellectually dishonest. Not just wrong but deliberately dishonest.

Banned.

Arsemageddon

Permabear wrote: »

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More than 8,000,000 people joined the Nazi party. A handful of former Nazis settled in Ireland after the war. Former Nazis settled in countries all across the world. Not all Nazis were war criminals, therefore your claim that the state gave them shelter is incorrect.

History isn't black and white. There has been a former Nazi head of the UN (Kurt Waldheim) and a pope who was a member of the Hitler Youth. Even the most famous of the Nazis who lived in Ireland - Otto Skorzeny later worked as an assassin for Mossad
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.711115

The truth of the matter is it was impossible to lock up all former Nazis from public life

Ireland did give asylum to a small number of Jews in the 1930s, but this was nowhere near enough, especially when compared with the numbers taken in by neutral Portugal and Sweden.

It is well-known that IRA collaborated with and shared intelligence with Nazi Germany. But modern-day Sinn Féin, now the third largest party in the state, has not backed away from this noxious history. In 2003, Mary Lou McDonald unveiled a statue of Nazi collaborator Sean Russell, and made a long glowing speech in his honor.

Russell's goal was to overthrow the Irish Free State - he was not acting on behalf of the state. Large numbers of people (and indeed, entire countries) collaborated with Nazi Germany, it is facile to condemn the entire country because of the actions of a small handful of individuals. Russell wasn't a Nazi, but he was a collaborator.

However, ML McDonald should never have given that speech.

FTA69

There were definitely Nazis who found their way to Ireland and sheltered there, Albert Folens of schoolbook fame was one notable example with serious questions over his head and he wasn't the only lad. That having been said, you'll find Nazis and their collaborators in wide swathes of the world. Most of them went to South America via the rat lines but plenty stayed in places like Hungary etc. As a poster correctly notes above, there were loads in the USA and some who were even co-opted by the US government so trying to portray Ireland as some sort of special, shameful case in this particular regard is total and utter b*llocks.

Dyr

I imagine we'd have wound up a bit like Finland

Although Collins had a bit of a touch of the dictator about him

irishguitarlad

Permabear wrote: »

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Fine Gael aren't so clean either, their history includes going off to fight on the side of Franco during the Spanish civil war. All partys have history, but hey lets just forget about all that and keep the rose tinted glasses on.

whisky_galore

Permabear wrote: »

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This old chestnut, probably more to do with annoying Churchill than genuine sorrow for Hitler's demise.

Douglas Hyde did the same thing as President only no-one makes a song-and-dance about that.

At the same time, a significant number of the 'plain people' of Ireland were well disposed to Germany, the WOI and the Tans being in living memory after all. No doubt rooting for a German victory and ignorant of what Nazism really was all about. Enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.

Permabear

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Speedwell

Permabear wrote: »

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See, this makes me squirm. Yes, Ireland needed to embrace globalism (in the early form of adopting English as a second language and the cultural habits of its nearest powerful neighbor) to get by. But "a bland and depressing reality"? Scuse me? That's like saying the culture of Mexico is bland and depressing because they failed to turn into a majority-English-speaking, majority-American-culture country. Sure, Mexico has a long way to go economically, and the summer and fall hurricanes don't help any. But WHY WHY WHY do I constantly see Irish people deny that there is an Irish culture worth revivifying and preserving?

Permabear

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Iwasfrozen

Speedwell wrote: »

See, this makes me squirm. Yes, Ireland needed to embrace globalism (in the early form of adopting English as a second language and the cultural habits of its nearest powerful neighbor) to get by. But "a bland and depressing reality"? Scuse me? That's like saying the culture of Mexico is bland and depressing because they failed to turn into a majority-English-speaking, majority-American-culture country. Sure, Mexico has a long way to go economically, and the summer and fall hurricanes don't help any. But WHY WHY WHY do I constantly see Irish people deny that there is an Irish culture worth revivifying and preserving?

That's more like asking the Mexicans WHY they don't think Aztec culture is worth reviving and preserving.

What do you even think a Gaelic Ireland would look like, in your view?

Speedwell

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's more like asking the Mexicans WHY they don't think Aztec culture is worth reviving and preserving.

Fair point, and in my experience, quite a few Mexicans do think Aztec and Toltec culture should be better represented in Mexican culture more generally.

What do you even think a Gaelic Ireland would look like, in your view?

Eh I suppose that's a legitimate question, but in truth I don't have even one hair of a dog in that fight, being an immigrant American who didn't get here until I was in my late 40s. Anything I said would be wrong by definition. I'm just trying to understand what Irish people think so I don't have to wait out Irish political discussions uncomfortably looking like I need to use the bathroom.

PopePalpatine

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The agenda to push Gaelic Ways and Customs probably would have ended up becoming radicalised, with Germany being the benchmark of promoting nationalism. We probably would have become a friend of Mr Hitler.

I think that's a little extreme, an Irish state committed to returning us to an idealised Gaelic country would probably be more like the regimes of Franco & Salazar.

whisky_galore

Speedwell wrote: »

But WHY WHY WHY do I constantly see Irish people deny that there is an Irish culture worth revivifying and preserving?

People though the ages, and the Irish are no different, pick and choose unconsciously what aspects of the pre-existing culture most appeal to them and keep them going and the rest end up in the collective cultural dustbin or as museum pieces.
Some aspects of past Irish culture have been superceded by technology and outside factors and I think we'll find in 10-15 years time there will be a discarding of a lot of Catholic religious influenced culture as the older generation dies off and the decline in the organised religion in this generation.

Carlos Orange

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes. It was a necessity for Israel to have a common language while we already had one in use for most, English.

Even now Hebrew is the native language of only a minority of Israelis. It is just that when the other 51% is split between 6+ languages it is easy to dominate as a practical choice.

topper75

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been reading "A Path to Freedom"

There is a book to go with the series?

I don't know really. I suppose the best stab I could make at answering your question is that we would all have Dublin accents and haircuts like Rats.