Car is faaacked

PokeHerKing

Hi folks,

I bought an 03 Skoda 8 weeks ago from second hand dealer. Car completely shat itself on the way into work this morning.

Got it towed to the dealers place and hoped that the 3 month warranty he gave with it would cover the issue.

I rang him just there he's told me the car is completely over heated and had zero coolant in it and that the engine is completely shafted and that I drove the car to its death.

I put oil in last week because the light came on. The temp gauge never changed from centre and I had no other indications to my non mechanical eye that the car was over heating.

He's claiming that he can't cover neglect? Am I'm mad to be thinking I'm getting done here?

I didn't even get a quote to fix it off him because it turned into a bit of a row on the phone. Ill have to head up there after work.

Any advice anyone can offer?

Cheers

xabi

Your warranty is probably only for engine and gearbox, so i doubt he will cover no water, would come under neglect. Depends on how the coolant was lost though.

Atlantic Dawn

I presume he would have serviced or at the very least checked all fluid levels prior to selling you the car? Ask him did he do either of these first. Do you know if the coolant loss was a result of a leak or head gasket issue, if it was a head gasket issue the car was on the way out either way.

PokeHerKing

Yeah I said that to him, did he give me it with a full tank of coolant and if he did then it must have had a leak as surely 8 weeks is not long enough to use a full bottle? He said it came fully service with oil and coolant topped up.

The car had a vibration when the engine was running, like when sitting in traffic it was vibrating.

I've to go up there tonight but I've no real idea of what my rights are if any in this situation. He was defensive from the get go. Claiming you could wreck a new car through neglect in 8 weeks.

KCross

That cant be neglect.
A car doesnt lose all its coolant unless there is some other underlying issue.
The fact you had to top up oil as well within 8 weeks of him presumably servicing it, is another indication that the car had issues.

I'd dig in and hold your ground if you are sure you didnt drive the car with the temp gauge in the red.

Atomic Pineapple

Try to get an independent mechanic to take a look at the car and write up a report if you can, it might give you more idea of what might have happened with the car, you'd need to be very unlucky and very negligent to have wrecked a car that was serviced 8 weeks ago.

MarkR

I don't know much about cars, but would the water pump / timing belt have been due a change?

PokeHerKing

Atomic Pineapple wrote:

Try to get an independent mechanic to take a look at the car and write up a report if you can, it might give you more idea of what might have happened with the car, you'd need to be very unlucky and very negligent to have wrecked a car that was serviced 8 weeks ago.

So would you advise to tow it to another mechanics and get a report on it?

Can I go through the small claims court with this then? Or would it just be to provide the dealer with prof the car was sold faulty?

the_syco

PokeHerKing wrote: »

The temp gauge never changed from centre and I had no other indications to my non mechanical eye that the car was over heating.

How about when the car was off, or just shortly after it was started up? Sounds a bit dodge.

screamer

I think you'll need to go and be prepared to lose the coolant yourself with this dealer. No way a car should use it lose all it's coolant in 8 weeks. No way. Either was a leak or the head gasket was going on it. Give the consumer rights guys a call.

Atomic Pineapple

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Atomic Pineapple wrote:

Try to get an independent mechanic to take a look at the car and write up a report if you can, it might give you more idea of what might have happened with the car, you'd need to be very unlucky and very negligent to have wrecked a car that was serviced 8 weeks ago.

So would you advise to tow it to another mechanics and get a report on it?

Can I go through the small claims court with this then? Or would it just be to provide the dealer with prof the car was sold faulty?

Be easier if you could get the garage you brought it back to, to agree to let you bring in an independent mechanic to check it out.

PokeHerKing

the_syco wrote:

How about when the car was off, or just shortly after it was started up? Sounds a bit dodge.

No the gauge always dropped back when I turned it off but it never went past half way when driving. No other lights or warning bar the oil light last week which I topped up that day.

ironclaw

How much oil did it take when you topped it up? 8 weeks is no time at all between top ups, in an RX8 or other oil burning car I'd expect a good dose every month or so, but not a standard Skoda unless you are doing serious miles.

Also, coolant does not drop that fast. From full to empty in 8 weeks is a head gasket or leak. Without being funny, you could literally go a year or two without topping up the coolant in a car.

I'd be having the car independently checked over, sounds like you have a lemon on your hands.

PokeHerKing

Cheers for the responses folks. Was our with them tonight, they're saying it needs a complete engine replacement. Said they would cover labour if I'd cover parts.

Not ideal but it's probably better than the small claims court option? Could anyone guess at what parts would cost?

Cheers

ScouseMouse

You will my bollix. This sounds so bogey, I think he sold you a lemon. I think you should demand a full repair at their expense.

Idbatterim

what did the car cost?

PokeHerKing

1500e

Idbatterim

I wonder would you be better off getting a bangernomic for 1k. Depends on what parts will cost I suppose... I wonder would they give you anything back for the car and sort it themselves...

Toyotafanboi

In fairness it was a cheap and chancey second hand car.

If you bought it from a donedeal backyard dealer, i'd be getting prepared to walk away from this as a hard lesson learned.

If it was from a gravel yard and portakabin type dealer then i'd fight for it. Tell him to leave the car as is, as you will be getting a second opinion on it (even if you are not) and see what move he makes. Don't go in with your "solicitor" guns blazing.

Just make it clear with him. Listen pal, not checking coolant on a daily basis is not "neglect". It is a reasonable expectation that a car that you purchased as "fully serviced" shouldn't need an engine oil top up and really really should need a coolant top after less than 2 months, even at that price point.

Personally i'd be angling for my money back, if he offered anything over €1000 back i'd take it and chalk it up to experience. This guy is a chancer and you don't want him to do a repair for free because he will cut every corner under the sun and the problem will rear it's head again once the remaining warranty is up.

KCross

ScouseMouse wrote: »

You will my bollix. This sounds so bogey, I think he sold you a lemon. I think you should demand a full repair at their expense.

The above

Ideally get your money back because whatever repair he does will likely be a cost cutting exercise and you will almost certainly have more issues down the line outside warranty.

What mileage was on it and do you now believe it is genuine? If the mileage was low I'd be thinking clocked!

PokeHerKing

It's from a gravel and cabin place and my but of googling before I pulled the trigger said they were a long enough standing dealer with no bad reviews.

Ill have to weigh it all up when I get their quote. Ill get a mate to check it out before I agree to repairs either way.

Does anyone have any experience of going the legal route for something like this? How long it took and what was the outcome?

Cheers

ironclaw

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of going the legal route for something like this? How long it took and what was the outcome?

As a cost versus probability of good outcome exercise, its not worth it. I don't wish to marginalize €1500, it is a chunk of change, but you'll probably spend months chasing it. Small Claims may get your money back but then you actually need to get it from the Dealer, and they'll drag their heels / go bust before you do.

For €1500, I'd be going in and asking for your money, or as close to it, back. An engine and labor is going to be nigh on half or more of that. Its not worth it and they are not going to do it right, that I can assure you.

Walk away as fast and 'cash out' as cleanly as you can.

bazz26

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Cheers for the responses folks. Was our with them tonight, they're saying it needs a complete engine replacement. Said they would cover labour if I'd cover parts.

Not ideal but it's probably better than the small claims court option? Could anyone guess at what parts would cost?

Cheers

What exactly was covered by warranty and how long was it for? Did any warning light come on the dashboard before you stopped driving it or did you continue to drive it until it died? The cost of a reconditioned engine will be more than the labour costs anyway if they are using their own mechanic.

Small claims court might be an option but it's no guarantee of a successful or satisfactory outcome. Maybe go talk to Consumer Affairs or the Citizen's Advice Bureaux for some free legal advice before accepting or declining any offer from the garage.

Gael23

He car is hardly worth the price of a job like that?

PokeHerKing

bazz26 wrote:

What exactly was covered by warranty and how long was it for? Did any warning light come on the dashboard before you stopped driving it or did you continue to drive it until it died? The cost of a reconditioned engine will be more than the labour costs anyway if they are using their own mechanic.

bazz26 wrote:

Small claims court might be an option but it's no guarantee of a successful or satisfactory outcome. Maybe go talk to Consumer Affairs or the Citizen's Advice Bureaux for some free legal advice before accepting or declining any offer from the garage.

Nothing came on the dash, no lights, no change in the temp gauge. The car was making a pretty horrific noise on the m50 and I probably should have pulled in but I thought I'll get to work and then ring my mate who's a mechanic and see what he thouggt. As I came off the m50 it died.

The warranty is for 3 months. It states the following:

3 months engine and gearbox warranty or otherwise listed in the vehicle details. Warranty on major mechanical breakdown on engine, gearbox components only. Oil leaks strictly excluded, cambelts not included or any securable parts.

It goes on to state no responsibility is held by the garage for any damage caused by neglect, such as shortage of oil, water , all fluids etc or damage due to excessive driving.

millington

How could they tell that it didn't use all it's coolant due to a "major mechanical breakdown"?

I'm not one to expect the world off dealers warranties but I would expect total failure to be covered in this situation.

PokeHerKing

My mate is a mechanic but doesn't own his own garage or anything. If I get him to go up and take a look and write up what he sees is that ok if I go the small claims route?

As in would it need to be someone with their own place, headed paper, stamped?

Like my mate is most likely just gonna agree with what their saying. ie car lost all its coolant and shat itself. I just want to make sure that it would be enough coming from someone without their own garage?

Cheers

almostover

Get whatever you can back from this car because the car sounds like a big pile of dung. 8 weeks and the oil was low enough to bring the light on!! The level has to go well below the min on the dipstick before this will happen. The engine in that car was wrecked, plain and simple. It was drinking oil and appears to have had a head gasket issue. See what you can get back and move on, learn your lesson. If you're buying a car and have little or no mechanical knowledge bring someone who does with you to review the car. These warranties are often worth nothing more than the paper they're printed on. You could be in trouble with this as hypothetically a hose may have worked loose and dumped all your coolant, or developed a leaking hose. it's going to be very hard for you to prove the car was not in a salable condition when you bought it. Best bet is to pressure the dealer for some sort of a refund and if you get it then be happy and move on.

ironclaw

I'd echo what almostover said. Cut your losses and run. The garage will likely favor a refund as overall, its probably going to cost them a whole lot more to fix the issues. I'd snap the hand off anything next or near what you paid for it.

bazz26

ironclaw wrote: »

I'd echo what almostover said. Cut your losses and run. The garage will likely favor a refund as overall, its probably going to cost them a whole lot more to fix the issues. I'd snap the hand off anything next or near what you paid for it.

Doesn't the OP say the garage want the OP to cover the cost of the parts and garage will cover the labour? That will work out more expensive for the OP than the garage who probably already have a mechanic on their books.

PokeHerKing

Right so the update is they quoted me 750e to fix it. Needless to say I didn't agree. I said that I wanted him to honour the 3 month guarantee, by either fixing it at his expense or refunding me.

He said he'd be doing neither. So I told him I'd be pursuing it through the small claims as I have no other choice.

Yesterday, when I first phoned to find out what the issue was, he told me that he'd be charging me a storage fee if I didn't remove the car. That was after the conversation had turned into a bit of argument. Today he didn't say anything and the call ended with me saying he'd be getting a formal complaint letter from me.

I'm not sure how I should deal with that aspect of it? In my mind I've bought a faulty product from a retailer and returned said item in pursuit of a refund. Retailer is refusing repair or refund. So im pursuing it the only way I can.

Now if it was a faulty radio I wouldn't be too worried about it but it being a car that I've taxed and insured and is still registered to me, I'm not sure if I should get it towed to my house or what?

Any advice please?

Cheers

ironclaw

You won't source and fit an engine for €750. Not a hope, and you have no idea of what condition the engine will be in unless you source it yourself. I'd offer to sell the car back to him, at a discount and run. Gives him room to fix up the car, gets you cleanly away from the situation. I can't stress enough how you are wasting your time by going the legal route, in time alone, its not worth €1500.

KCross

ironclaw wrote: »

You won't source and fit an engine for €750. Not a hope, and you have no idea of what condition the engine will be in unless you source it yourself. I'd offer to sell the car back to him, at a discount and run. Gives him room to fix up the car, gets you cleanly away from the situation. I can't stress enough how you are wasting your time by going the legal route, in time alone, its not worth €1500.

I havent done it myself but isnt the small claims court supposed to be quick and cheap and ideal for claims of this size.

I'd say there is a very good chance the judge would side with the buyer based on the info here and unless the dealer is willing to fold his business he should get his money back.

The dealer here is being a p***k. He should be pursued to deter him doing the same to the next guy.

Gael23

I think you have no option but to take a case to the small claims court at this point. I agree it's not worth engaging solicitors but I don't see what other options are available to you.

George Dalton

How many times did you check the oil and coolant levels in the 8 weeks that you have owned this 13 year old €1500 car?

Mervyn Skidmore

As someone driving a 16 year old car I would tend to look under the bonnet around once a week. Only takes about 30 seconds to check all your fluids. You could bring a small claim, it will only cost you 25 quid but the process can take a while so I'd be looking at a replacement and then hope for the best with the small claims process.

ironclaw

For what its worth, I really don't see the point in going down the small claims route. This isn't a brand new dishwasher or mobile phone, its a car and its 10+ years old. The ability to prove the car was in perfect condition when sold is impossible either way, neither party can prove a lemon was or wasn't tendered. In the course of two months, its reasonable for a car to be maintained and monitored, its also reasonable that wear and tear occurred on such an old car that facilitated the coolant leak e.g. Water pump, coolant pipe leak etc. Its not reasonable for a dealer to foresee this occurring.

You're also counting on the person arbitrating the case is reasonably savvy on cars, and you yourself have the ability to lay out the case in such a manner, with proof as remember we have an onus to present it, in such a way that you will win. And then what happens when you win? The dealer is entitled to repair, replace or refund. You don't get a choice. The dealer has offered to repair the car, this is a proactive step and the 'court' will look favourably on it. All they have to do is prove is outside reasonable warranty scope (Pretty likely they'll be able to do this) and you refused to pay. End result, you'll likely loose your case. These guys have been round the block before unfortunately.

Net result, you pay €25, plus wait a few weeks, and you likely need a car in the interim or you take the bus. If it was me, I'd offer to sell the car back to the dealer, cancel and get a refund on my tax and insurance, and just walk away. Its €1500 we're talking about here, you'll spend that in no time at all fighting it. Chalk it up to experience with minimal losses and stress.

I've zero connection to the trade, and nothing would see me right that to see a dodgy dealer get wrung out in court, but its just is not going to happen.

Criddy

If you have Legal cover on your car insurance, give them a call. That is what they are there for. The garage will soon jump when they receive a letter. It shouldn't cost you to call them. At worst they are only going to look at the warranty and then say no. At least you can have a professional check it out.

I bet they will go after it for you. It's all money money money to them.

PokeHerKing

OK just a quick update. Cause it's taken a new twist. Rang the guy I've been dealing with from sale to now. His mobile number is on the website, with his first name beside it. Which he answers to.

So rang to get his second name and to confirm he's the owner. Says he's not the owner, no idea who the owner is and that he won't give me his second name!

Madness Ted!!

I appreciate all the response by the way.
I'm currently looking for a new car and I'll be transferring all my details once I get one. Small claims route is purely to try recoup anything at all back.

They've offered to repair it at a cost to me of half the cars original value. I mean that's no offer at all really.

I may get zero pennies back by the end of it all but sure I have zero pennies right now!

Cheers

Gael23

PokeHerKing wrote: »

They've offered to repair it at a cost to me of half the cars original value. I mean that's no offer at all really.

I may get zero pennies back by the end of it all but sure I have zero pennies right now!

Cheers

You will still make a loss but it might be worth considering paying for the repairs and getting rid of it asap? Its worth nothing as is but repaired you should get back the price of the repairs plus a few hundred € extra.

PokeHerKing

Gael23 wrote:

You will still make a loss but it might be worth considering paying for the repairs and getting rid of it asap? Its worth nothing as is but repaired you should get back the price of the repairs plus a few hundred € extra.

Sure at that rate I could just keep the car and drive around in a 2150e Skoda and not a 1400e one.

Anyway I wouldn't want to sell on a car that's given me this much hassle in such a short space of time to some unsuspecting punter.

Ill roll the dice, it's only 1400e but the principal is way more. Especially after today's phone call.

KCross

ironclaw wrote: »

For what its worth, I really don't see the point in going down the small claims route. This isn't a brand new dishwasher or mobile phone, its a car and its 10+ years old. The ability to prove the car was in perfect condition when sold is impossible either way, neither party can prove a lemon was or wasn't tendered. In the course of two months, its reasonable for a car to be maintained and monitored, its also reasonable that wear and tear occurred on such an old car that facilitated the coolant leak e.g. Water pump, coolant pipe leak etc. Its not reasonable for a dealer to foresee this occurring.

You dont have to prove that a lemon was or wasnt sold. All you have to prove is that you didnt abuse the car and it broke down within the warranty period. The owner did maintain it and added oil, which shouldnt have been required either.

The dealer or owner doesnt have to foresee anything here. All that has to happen is that the dealer stands over the warranty provided.

ironclaw wrote: »

The dealer is entitled to repair, replace or refund. You don't get a choice. The dealer has offered to repair the car, this is a proactive step and the 'court' will look favourably on it. All they have to do is prove is outside reasonable warranty scope (Pretty likely they'll be able to do this) and you refused to pay. End result, you'll likely loose your case. These guys have been round the block before unfortunately.

The dealer hasnt offered to fix the car. He has offered a fix, part funded by the owner! Thats not a "repair, replace or refund".

Cant see why you think they will easily prove its outside warranty scope and the owner is likely to lose. Based on info given its the most clear cut case you can have. The engine and gearbox is covered and it broke down within the warranty period.

If this case didnt win then no case would ever win and warranty is useless. Maybe that is the reality.

ironclaw wrote: »

If it was me, I'd offer to sell the car back to the dealer, cancel and get a refund on my tax and insurance, and just walk away. Its €1500 we're talking about here, you'll spend that in no time at all fighting it. Chalk it up to experience with minimal losses and stress.

I'd agree the ideal scenario is get the €1500 back but apparently the dealer isnt offering that... hence the need for small claims court and the owner is looking at getting a different car in the meantime which he will have to do regardless.

Muckie

Get your car back, re-coup the tax, declare it off the road.

Start the small claims process, sounds very much like you were sold a lemon.(it happens!)

Start taking notes and make a record of times and conversations you've had with this dealer.

It'll take some time, Judge would probably come down in in your favour.

Mother & Father had a similar case years ago, took 4 months to resolve.

They won out once they were able to back up how they had tried to get the Dealer to resolve the issue.

Good luck and keep us posted.

9935452

KCross wrote: »

You dont have to prove that a lemon was or wasnt sold. All you have to prove is that you didnt abuse the car and it broke down within the warranty period. The owner did maintain it and added oil, which shouldnt have been required either.

Firstly i do believe that the car is a lemon and had a good few things wrong with it

But there is also evidence the car was abused.
The op did top up the oil after the light came on.
Was this a low level oil light or oil pressure light.
If it was oil pressure light, this could have caused serious damage to the engine.
How often was the oil level checked ?. Am i right in thinking that vw have said cars burning 1ltr per 1000km is acceptable.
I would assume the op would have completed a few thousand miles in 8 weeks so the car might just have burned an acceptable amount of oil. And didnt top it up
When i buy a new (to me) car i would be checking the oil and water more often until i get a feel on how its performing.

Lastly the op said

PokeHerKing wrote: »

. The car was making a pretty horrific noise on the m50 and I probably should have pulled in but I thought I'll get to work and then ring my mate who's a mechanic and see what he thouggt. As I came off the m50 it died.

The garage could claim the noise was minor but the op drove on and finished off the engine by not stopping to see what was wrong

As i say, i do believe the car is a lemon but if the op goes to the small claims court the garage will put forward the argument above.

PokeHerKing

Just to update this. Dealer rang me yesterday to say that he would repair the car. Been a month since I initiated the small claim procedure, so I'm assuming he's got the letter and decided to honour his warranty.

All polite and what not, hopes to have the car back to me by Friday or Monday at the latest.

Ill bring my mate who's a mechanic up with me and ill get a receipt for all the work done but fingers crossed this seems to have a happy ending.

Gael23

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Just to update this. Dealer rang me yesterday to say that he would repair the car. Been a month since I initiated the small claim procedure, so I'm assuming he's got the letter and decided to honour his warranty.

All polite and what not, hopes to have the car back to me by Friday or Monday at the latest.

Ill bring my mate who's a mechanic up with me and ill get a receipt for all the work done but fingers crossed this seems to have a happy ending.

If it was me I would gladly let him repair it but then sell it asap. Cut and run in other words

Kristopherus

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Just to update this. Dealer rang me yesterday to say that he would repair the car. Been a month since I initiated the small claim procedure, so I'm assuming he's got the letter and decided to honour his warranty.

All polite and what not, hopes to have the car back to me by Friday or Monday at the latest.

Ill bring my mate who's a mechanic up with me and ill get a receipt for all the work done but fingers crossed this seems to have a happy ending.

Bring your mate there before and after if at all possible.And let him take the car for a run before accepting the car back. Flog the car asap.

PokeHerKing

Just thought I'd update this folks. So the long and the short of it is I woke up last Thursday to a cheque for 1409.50 cents from the sheriff.

I had no idea it was coming, I had written the whole thing off to experience.

My last dealings with the sheriff was a letter from them in September. It was written in ye olde English but I thought the gist of "I have no monies herein my bailwick" meant they had not been able to recover the money owed.

The garage had folded the company a few weeks after I initiated the small claims procedure. So along with that info and the way they were messing me about in general I never thought I'd get a penny back but I got the full amount paid for the car plus my 9.50e fee to the sheriff back!

All in all I lost 50e for the small claims and a lot of time and stress but in the end the system worked in this case!

Cheers for all the advice I received here.

PokeHerKing

Hi Folks,

Quick question on this. I've just received am unpaid m50 toll for this car from Eflow.

I have had no contact with these guys in a long time, nor do I want any. I have the name and personal address of the garage owner that I sued through the small claims court and got the Sheriff on to eventually get my refund.

Can I use his details and send the change of ownership to the driver and vehicle office?

Does he need to accept this ownership or will that be the car out of my name after I send it?

Cheers

ba_barabus

You can get a piece commissioner or solicitor to verify a claim that you no longer own the vehicle. Send that to eflow. They'll tell ypu the same. I had a similar issue.

PokeHerKing

ba_barabus wrote:

You can get a piece commissioner or solicitor to verify a claim that you no longer own the vehicle. Send that to eflow. They'll tell ypu the same. I had a similar issue.

Cheers. I've rang Eflow and they've put a 10 day hold on it.

Could anyone confirm if I send the log book to Shannon with the details of the owner of the garage. Is that it done? Or could he not accept it his side?

It never made any sense to me that they didn't come looking for the log book off after I got the cheque from the sheriff.