Cyclists should be "taken out and shot"

Roadhawk

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Where do you suggest a cargo bike rider on a cycle lane barely as wide as his bike go?
Maybe attach an inflatable raft and jump into the Liffey?

The "cargo" cyclists is in a bus lane? how much space does he need?

There are to two wrongs here. Im not denying that, but if i walk up to somebody and slap them(Trigger) im going to get a slap back (Response). Why couldnt the cyclist show a bit more courtesy where that whole situation could have been avoided?

Tenzor07

Roadhawk wrote: »

but this guy put himself in danger moving in front of a moving car...why would anyone want to do that?
Under no circumstances would i ever condone the drivers reaction but it is a response to the behavior of the cyclist.
The car is a government emergency vehicle - not a private vehicle. (front emergency lights were on - Looks more like a escort vehicle)
Sometimes i wonder if cyclists with these Go Pros have an agenda to specifically torment motorists.

He didn't put himself in front of a moving car, he WAS in front of the moving car trying to force it's way past on a narrow section of the road...
"The emergency lights were on" how's a cyclist meant to know that unless they have rear view mirrors, very dangerous for a cyclist to operate his bicycle whilst looking behind constantly!

Yea, an agenda to stay alive! Do you have the equal view of motor vehicle drivers with dashcams? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057386855

ThisRegard

Roadhawk wrote: »

The car is a government emergency vehicle - not a private vehicle. (front emergency lights were on - Looks more like a escort vehicle)

Didn't look like he was responding to an 'emergency', nor escorting anyone, possibly just abusing the fact he was a garda. What he hell was he thinking by accelerating up to the back of the cyclist that time?

The garda that you're so worried about had two lanes of traffic to his right in which he could have executed a perfectly safe overtaking manoeuvre.

Tenzor07

Roadhawk wrote: »

The "cargo" cyclists is in a bus lane? how much space does he need?

There are to two wrongs here. Im not denying that, but if i walk up to somebody and slap them(Trigger) im going to get a slap back (Response). Why couldnt the cyclist show a bit more courtesy where that whole situation could have been avoided?

Please, educate yourself as to the size of a cargo bike, and also on the width of that section on the quays, have you ever cycled or driven along it?

Which level of courtesy would you show to 1,500kg of metal approaching at say 40mph extremely closely to your unprotected self whilst not in the legal/correct lane?

MJohnston

Roadhawk wrote: »

Your first statement kind of proves the mentality of a cyclists. Just because i can, i will.

It's nothing to do with that at all, you're making things up. I was simply restating the fact (the exact same one that you yourself stated), that cyclists are allowed to take any position within a traffic lane. I then went on to explain why a cyclist might want to adopt a position in the middle of a lane - nothing to do with "because i can", but "because I need to be safe in a very dangerous environment". Attributing it to selfishness is just bizarre.

Also being well within your rights to pull in front of a car in not smart road safety. I agree that on many roads around the city cyclists cannot hug the curbs due to road conditions but this guy put himself in danger moving in front of a moving car...why would anyone want to do that?

It's pretty obvious to be honest - if this cyclist maintains his position at the side of the road, the driver behind him will continue to try and force past him, pushing him off the street, that much is clear when he finally does try and pass (at 17 seconds in). So, if the cyclist moves into the centre of the road, he has ensured that he is safer because the driver must use the outer traffic lane to properly and safely overtake him. The idea that a driver would then try and ram the bike off the road from behind is so unlikely and extreme that it's not really worth taking into account in most cases. Unfortunately this apparent member of the Gardai was one of those extreme cases.

Cyclists may be among the most vulnerable road users but according to a lot of stats provided by cyclists on boards it turns out to be the safest mode of transport?

You are displaying a dubious understanding of statistics. Vulnerability has no relationship to the statistics of road deaths. Vulnerability might in fact ACCOUNT FOR the low amount of road deaths, because it causes cyclists to take extreme amounts of care while cycling (conversely, a low amount of vulnerability causes drivers to take extreme risks, and causes more road deaths). If you don't think a soft, squishy cyclist is more vulnerable on a road than a metal wrapped driver, I don't know what to tell you, because you've gone insane.

Under no circumstances would i ever condone the drivers reaction but it is a response to the behavior of the cyclist.

Sorry, but this is classic victim blaming.

The car is a government emergency vehicle - not a private vehicle. (front emergency lights were on - Looks more like a escort vehicle)

There are no lights on at all until after the driver attempts to accelerate up the arse of the cyclist. What you're seeing looks more like the automatic hazard warning lights coming on at 25 seconds in due to extreme braking (a feature built into most modern cars), as they're orange/yellow, and far from an emergency light. Regardless, they aren't on at all at the beginning.

Sometimes i wonder if cyclists with these Go Pros have an agenda to specifically torment motorists.

It seems like you wonder that too much, rather than wondering why it is that cyclists have to resort to filming the antics of drivers.

Weepsie

Roadhawk wrote: »

Seriously?
Why did the cyclist feel the need to completely block the car? Ok he has every right to take a good road position but he blatantly turns around, sees the car and moves to the center of the road. If that was me driving id have issued a fine for cycling without reasonable consideration. (Cyclist driving a pedal cycle without reasonable consideration).

Clearly the driver should not have aggressively sped toward the cyclist but this was a triggered behavior. This is a classic case of the worst cyclists out there. Mentality needs to change for both parties.

I'd love if he tried to issue a fine if that was me. I'd have made sure to have his badge number, and reported it and followed it up. Cyclist did nothing wrong. Private car in a bus lane is the problem.

He has a plate, so he should report it to trafficwatch

Roadhawk

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Please, educate yourself as to the size of a cargo bike, and also on the width of that section on the quays, have you ever cycled or driven along it?

Which level of courtesy would you show to 1,500kg of metal approaching at say 40mph extremely closely to your unprotected self whilst not in the legal/correct lane?

well a cargo bike with 2 front wheels is 88cm wide so i presume the single wheeled version would not be larger. The bus lane on the quays should measure somewhere between 4m to 4.75 m wide according to the GDA (a Dublin bus is 3.1m wide). The audi A4 is 1.9m wide.

So there should be 1.22m - 1.97m of space to overtake - Given that is space between the curb and cyclists - cyclist and car - car and edge of lane. there is no law on distance required between car and cyclist but the rules of the road suggests 1.5m

DirkVoodoo

Roadhawk, your level of trolling is very poor. Over 8 years in this forum and you wouldn't even make the top 100 trolls. I can't even give you marks for trying.

If someone attacks you, what do you do? You put your arms up to defend yourself. Similarly on a bike, if someone drives aggressively and tries to squeeze past when you bloody well know they can't without clipping your or taking a very big risk of doing so, you move out and assume the lane.

Why do you assume that self preservation is simply an excuse to annoy? Granted there are people who take a bit of a delight in cycling like dicks, much like some people enjoy undertaking in bus lanes before 6, or using umbrellas as weapons on a rainy day in Grafton street. For the most part though, it's simply someone saying "I don't want to die today so you can get stuck in traffic up the road a bit quicker".

The fact that this is a Garda is wholly unacceptable. In fact, it should be made an example of. The Gardai are there to uphold the law, not flout it on a whim for their own benefit.

I hope that everyone tries to publicise this. It can't go unanswered. Tweet it, blog it, share it. Whatever, just make sure that this is not ignored by the Gardai.

Roadhawk

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Roadhawk, your level of trolling is very poor. Over 8 years in this forum and you wouldn't even make the top 100 trolls. I can't even give you marks for trying.

If someone attacks you, what do you do? You put your arms up to defend yourself. Similarly on a bike, if someone drives aggressively and tries to squeeze past when you bloody well know they can't without clipping your or taking a very big risk of doing so, you move out and assume the lane.

Why do you assume that self preservation is simply an excuse to annoy? Granted there are people who take a bit of a delight in cycling like dicks, much like some people enjoy undertaking in bus lanes before 6, or using umbrellas as weapons on a rainy day in Grafton street. For the most part though, it's simply someone saying "I don't want to die today so you can get stuck in traffic up the road a bit quicker".

The fact that this is a Garda is wholly unacceptable. In fact, it should be made an example of. The Gardai are there to uphold the law, not flout it on a whim for their own benefit.

I hope that everyone tries to publicise this. It can't go unanswered. Tweet it, blog it, share it. Whatever, just make sure that this is not ignored by the Gardai.

Wow thats a very direct approach and one way to kill the conversation. I am simply at a different opinion to you and others regarding this topic. No need to go off on a personal rant trying to provoke a nasty response from me.

I was using the "get hit/hit back" example only to show a trigger/response scenario. Similarly in the example you provided the response is to protect yourself. Same thing - Trigger/response.

I completely agree with you saying that the Gard is abusing power in the sense that he should not be using the Bus lane unless traveling to or from an incident. Even if this video went viral not much can be done. There are too many variables.

MJohnston

Roadhawk wrote: »

Wow thats a very direct approach and one way to kill the conversation. I am simply at a different opinion to you and others regarding this topic. No need to go off on a personal rant trying to provoke a nasty response from me.

Is this the conversation where you're unwilling to engage with points made against your own?

Roadhawk

MJohnston wrote: »

Is this the conversation where you're unwilling to engage with points made against your own?

Sorry but i am the only responder to my side of the discussion. give me time im getting there. You have some good points i have to try counter

magicbastarder

Roadhawk wrote: »

Also being well within your rights to pull in front of a car in not smart road safety.

you're clearly not a cyclist. does the fact that so many cyclists who have been in similar situations telling you what is the safest thing to do, means absolutely nothing?

if someone is potentially going to bully their way past you in such a situation, it is safest to control the lane, as you're much safer having them behind you than you are having them alongside you.
going by your own calculations, there's barely enough room to overtake safely; and you haven't allowed space between the cyclist and kerb, or the side of the audi and the edge of the lane, in your final figure, even though you acknowledge it's necessary.
once they're alongside you, you've about three or four feet (combined) at best to allow for unexpected situations, such as detritus near the kerb, or someone changing lanes. keeping the car behind you means there's far more space for emergencies.

magicbastarder

i once had a vaguely similar experience on st martin's row in chapelizod, where a motorist was acting like a complete bully. she claimed to be a cop, so i pulled out my phone and told her i was ringing the gardai to report her for impersonation of a garda. she spun her wheels, she tried to get away so fast.

magicbastarder

anyway, how can we even be talking about overtaking as a concept when it's clear the car cannot leave his own lane?

2RockMountain

magicbastarder wrote: »

i once had a vaguely similar experience on st martin's row in chapelizod, where a motorist was acting like a complete bully. she claimed to be a cop, so i pulled out my phone and told her i was ringing the gardai to report her for impersonation of a garda. she spun her wheels, she tried to get away so fast.

I had a young lady driver in Ranalagh tell me that her boyfriend was a Garda in Donnybrook some years back. I told her I had the number for Donnybrook GS on my phone, so we could ring them on the spot and discuss her dodgy driving. She drove off.

galwaycyclist

I once got a close pass from a taxi in a bus lane near Drumcondra. His wing mirror left a wound in my right arm that bled quite badly but did not require stitches.

Lesson learned regarding leaving enough room that drivers might "think" they can get past.

cdebru

Roadhawk wrote: »

The "cargo" cyclists is in a bus lane? how much space does he need?

There are to two wrongs here. Im not denying that, but if i walk up to somebody and slap them(Trigger) im going to get a slap back (Response). Why couldnt the cyclist show a bit more courtesy where that whole situation could have been avoided?

The courtesy is not trying to squeeze past a cyclist when there is no space to do so, the cyclist was perfectly correct to make sure they protect themselves and not leave the possibility for the motorist to attempt such a dangerous manoeuvre. He knew he was wrong hence why he left so quick when whipping out the badge didn't have the desired affect of cowing the cyclist.

Cookie_Monster

Roadhawk wrote: »

Sorry but i am the only responder to my side of the discussion. give me time im getting there. You have some good points i have to try counter

do you think there might be a reason for that, like your opinion is completely incorrect and everyone but you can see reason on the topic?
Just because you have an opinion, which has been demonstrated to be completely wrong, doesn't mean we have to listen to it or take the time to make the same tired old points again and again to disprove it just because you won't listen and are too entrenched to view it for what it is.

Jawgap

2RockMountain wrote: »

I had a young lady driver in Ranalagh tell me that her boyfriend was a Garda in Donnybrook some years back. I told her I had the number for Donnybrook GS on my phone, so we could ring them on the spot and discuss her dodgy driving. She drove off.

One of my 'favourite' incidents when I was out on the bike when I was with my brother and cycling with a few of his buddies and we were overtaken in a 'very close and loud' manner by an SUV driver. One of the riders had the presence of mind to immediately ring TrafficWatch......


......Oh, and my brother is a Guard........his buddies were the Garda Cycling Club.......and the guy who phoned TrafficWatch was an inspector in the Traffic Corps :D:D

The moral of the story......be careful which bunch of cyclists you decide to misbehave towards......or at least know the colours of GCC

2RockMountain

stop wrote: »

Interestingly, the reg on the Audi doesn't show up on cartell/mywheels etc - I was under the impression that Garda vehicles generally do though.

Very interesting, and very unusual. I've checked a Garda squad car registration, and it does come up on motorcheck.ie

2RockMountain

Roadhawk wrote: »

Regardless of injury and fatality stats apportioning blame on a particular group the bottom line is that all road users should be abiding by the current laws and uphold a level of courtesy to others on the road.

Motorists:
Stop speeding
Stop drink driving
Stop being on the phone while driving
etc.


It really should be quite easy.

Can I be so bold as to ask your own views (and more importantly) your own practice in relation to the advice above? Do you ever/often exceed the urban speed limit? Do you have take a call on the road or check a text message while stopped at the lights?

MJohnston

Steady on here, Roadhawk has at least 4 other posts to reply to before yours

prinzeugen

MJohnston wrote: »

First of all, there's no rule or law that says that a cyclist has to allow vehicles to pass them.

There is.. Its the same law that applies to anyone obstructing the flow of traffic. Suggest you read the Road Traffic Act..

galwaycyclist

prinzeugen wrote: »

There is.. Its the same law that applies to anyone obstructing the flow of traffic. Suggest you read the Road Traffic Act..

Suggest that you read the roads act. This contains a duty on road users to avoid injury and damage to property - including personal property.

Nobody is required to endanger themselves or their property to save someone else a few seconds getting to the next red traffic light.

Edit: Here I dug it out for you.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/14/section/67/enacted/en/html#sec67

67.—(1) It shall be the duty of a person using a public road to take reasonable care for his own safety and for that of any other person using the public road.

(2) It shall be the duty of a person using a public road to take all reasonable measures to avoid—

(a) injury to himself or to any other person using the public road,

(b) damage to property owned or used by him or by any other person using the public road.

Roadhawk

MJohnston wrote: »

It's nothing to do with that at all, you're making things up. I was simply restating the fact (the exact same one that you yourself stated), that cyclists are allowed to take any position within a traffic lane. I then went on to explain why a cyclist might want to adopt a position in the middle of a lane - nothing to do with "because i can", but "because I need to be safe in a very dangerous environment". Attributing it to selfishness is just bizarre.



It's pretty obvious to be honest - if this cyclist maintains his position at the side of the road, the driver behind him will continue to try and force past him, pushing him off the street, that much is clear when he finally does try and pass (at 17 seconds in). So, if the cyclist moves into the centre of the road, he has ensured that he is safer because the driver must use the outer traffic lane to properly and safely overtake him. The idea that a driver would then try and ram the bike off the road from behind is so unlikely and extreme that it's not really worth taking into account in most cases. Unfortunately this apparent member of the Gardai was one of those extreme cases.



You are displaying a dubious understanding of statistics. Vulnerability has no relationship to the statistics of road deaths. Vulnerability might in fact ACCOUNT FOR the low amount of road deaths, because it causes cyclists to take extreme amounts of care while cycling (conversely, a low amount of vulnerability causes drivers to take extreme risks, and causes more road deaths). If you don't think a soft, squishy cyclist is more vulnerable on a road than a metal wrapped driver, I don't know what to tell you, because you've gone insane.



Sorry, but this is classic victim blaming.



There are no lights on at all until after the driver attempts to accelerate up the arse of the cyclist. What you're seeing looks more like the automatic hazard warning lights coming on at 25 seconds in due to extreme braking (a feature built into most modern cars), as they're orange/yellow, and far from an emergency light. Regardless, they aren't on at all at the beginning.



It seems like you wonder that too much, rather than wondering why it is that cyclists have to resort to filming the antics of drivers.

I understand your point regarding lane position from the approach that if you feel a driver doesn't see you its best to make sure that he does. This cultures the same quality that you can label as awareness. Many feel that the only way to raise awareness and thus safety is to have more cyclists on the road...but on the other hand if there are segregated cycle lanes this kind of defeats the purpose.

Its not that obvious to me looking at the video that the cyclist was simply maintaining lane position. Yes the cyclist looks over his right shoulder whilst in a modest lane position only to find the car attempting to squeeze by however at this point the cyclist moves further to the middle of the lane and looks down at the distance between the car and him making sure that there is not enough room to pass whilst compromising his own safety. The car retracts and the driver becomes extremely irate and then the cyclist is fully in the center of the lane. Completely forced, no doubt about it.

I take you point on stats-it was worth a try though. Just for the record cyclists are ripped...not squishy

The lights that came on are emergency lights. They oscillate from left to right and are in the inside of the lens where as the indicator is on the outside of the lens. They can be triggered when pressing the horn...maybe he pressed it hoping for sound?

Roadhawk

2RockMountain wrote: »

Very interesting, and very unusual. I've checked a Garda squad car registration, and it does come up on motorcheck.ie

It might be a ministerial car or some undercover unit vehicle of some sort? Still odd though

2RockMountain

Roadhawk wrote: »

It might be a ministerial car or some undercover unit vehicle of some sort? Still odd though

Might be, but I'm not aware of any provision in law for Gardai to drive unregistered vehicles or 'ghost plates'. Most Ministers own their own cars now, with only the Taoiseach, Min Justice, A/G and (maybe) Taniaste getting state cars - very odd.

Roadhawk

2RockMountain wrote: »

Can I be so bold as to ask your own views (and more importantly) your own practice in relation to the advice above? Do you ever/often exceed the urban speed limit? Do you have take a call on the road or check a text message while stopped at the lights?

That was more of an "ideal scenario" comment. I have daily interaction with many topics raised in this thread but my exact practice is not relevant. I dont usually break the urban speed limit although it is terribly annoying and unrealistically slow on some stretches. I have a hands free kit that also shows texts on a heads up display. Pretty neat so i dont need to break the law but dont put me down as a model citizen yet.

RobertFoster

Deedsie wrote: »

Why don't Dublin bus, Coach buses, Emergency vehicles and Taxi operators have dash cams fitted?

If I was a professional driver I would definitely have one installed

Dublin Bus has 9 or 10 cameras (depending on the bus type) on each bus, including a forward facing one (like a dash cam). The footage is used by the company and given to the Gardaí if they request it. I don't think it'd make it to Youtube for the rest of us though.

MJohnston

Roadhawk wrote: »

I understand your point regarding lane position from the approach that if you feel a driver doesn't see you its best to make sure that he does. This cultures the same quality that you can label as awareness. Many feel that the only way to raise awareness and thus safety is to have more cyclists on the road...but on the other hand if there are segregated cycle lanes this kind of defeats the purpose.

Sorry, but this reads as gibberish!

Its not that obvious to me looking at the video that the cyclist was simply maintaining lane position. Yes the cyclist looks over his right shoulder whilst in a modest lane position only to find the car attempting to squeeze by however at this point the cyclist moves further to the middle of the lane and looks down at the distance between the car and him making sure that there is not enough room to pass whilst compromising his own safety. The car retracts and the driver becomes extremely irate and then the cyclist is fully in the center of the lane. Completely forced, no doubt about it.

I didn't say that the cyclist maintained his lane position, you didn't actually read my post - "if this cyclist maintains his position at the side of the road, the driver behind him will continue to try and force past him, pushing him off the street, that much is clear when he finally does try and pass (at 17 seconds in). So, if the cyclist moves into the centre of the road, he has ensured that he is safer because the driver must use the outer traffic lane to properly and safely overtake him."

So, no, you're wrong to say he's compromising his safety in general (of course, in this specific case, he was because the driver was a nutjob who then tried to ram him from behind!)

I take you point on stats-it was worth a try though. Just for the record cyclists are ripped...not squishy

Trust me, under the wheels of an 'irate driver', we're very squishy indeed. And I'm very far from ripped, unfortunately.

The lights that came on are emergency lights. They oscillate from left to right and are in the inside of the lens where as the indicator is on the outside of the lens. They can be triggered when pressing the horn...maybe he pressed it hoping for sound?

Again, point was that they weren't on at the beginning, the lights didn't come on until AFTER the driver had tried his 'ramming' procedure.