Motor Tax charges unfair!

Anchises

I paid my Motor Tax yesterday online - Euro 673.00 for 12 months on a 16 year old Mazda 1800cc. Bugger it ! That's more then the car is worth. An equivalent car registered after 2008 would have to pay only Eur 250.00 or thereabouts for the year. And that against the background that I use it mainly to go top the supermarket . I doubt I do more then 6,000 miles a year!

Why don't we have a system where older cars are recognised as having made their contribution to the economy after say 12 years and are exempt or pay lower motor tax ?

Or more importantly, why aren't all motorist paying the same car tax on their cars irrespective of age. It's blatently discriminatory in favor of those who can afford new cars.

I saw a report in Sunday World.com about unfair car tax recently - but dammit Motor Tax was never mentioned by the FG/FF/Independants discussions on taxation in their attempt to form a government - But of course , they all drive NEW cars or Government supplied cars !

Now the economic crisis is over, all motorists should be treated fairly and equally.

A.

George Dalton

Your petrol Mazda would almost certainly be even more expensive to tax under the CO2 system.

I knew this post would be a pointless rant before I clicked the link but I wouldn't have expected factual inaccuracy as well. Try harder next time :P

shietpilot

Well it would cost quite a bit of money to start doing CO2 rates on pre-2008 cars for the government.

1) I don't think all cars already have a CO2 output provided by the manufacturer. This may be tricky with some of the older cars and they would need to be emission tested.

2) Not every car is still on the road. The government would need to set up some system for people to convert their tax to the CO2 rate.

3) Some cars will be more expensive on the CO2 rate and people won't want to change to it. What will you do with these people? Force them to move or give them choice?

It was very easy for them to say "oh from next year we can do CO2 rates" which was in 2008 and it was very easy to set up the new tax rates for new registered vehicles but I guess it would take some work to set it up for old cars.

Realistically the government should just stop charging an arm and a leg for tax and set up tax rates like any other European country. €280 should be the top tax rate for a max output rotary petrol and not the rate for a 1.8 diesel!

Anchises

I don't dispute that at all. But the High rate of motor tax assumes a level of polution that I never achieve due to my low mileage , and I dare say the low mileage of many older cars. A tax on fuel would be more appropriate in the circumstances . Then the tax would co-relate directly to CO2 output and be fairer -After all the rational was "Polluter pays"


A.

CiniO

Anchises wrote: »

I don't dispute that at all. But the High rate of motor tax assumes a level of polution that I never achieve due to my low mileage , and I dare say the low mileage of many older cars. A tax on fuel would be more appropriate in the circumstances . Then the tax would co-relate directly to CO2 output and be fairer -After all the rational was "Polluter pays"


A.

And guess what - we actually do already have this tax on fuel you are talking
It's about 70% of the price you pay at the pump - that's this tax.

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Motor should be based on weight since heavier cars cause more wear on the roads. But then motor tax doesn't actually pay for the roads.

Anchises

(My previous post was a reply to George )

@ Shietpilot - Apparently the CO2 rating are available for all cars since 2001

Certificates of conformity for all models since 2001 are required by EU law to declare O2 emission levels.

A.

shietpilot

Anchises wrote: »

(My previous post was a reply to George )

@ Shietpilot - Apparently the CO2 rating are available for all cars since 2001

Certificates of conformity for all models since 2001 are required by EU law to declare O2 emission levels.

A.

I see. But then still you would have people with 1998 regged cars crying about unfair tax!

Anchises

@ CiniO - That's the point - We are tax execessively under both headings ! Not to mention the VRT paid when cars are first registered !

A.

CiniO

Ronald Wilson Reagan wrote: »

Motor should be based on weight since heavier cars cause more wear on the roads. But then motor tax doesn't actually pay for the roads.

Everyone is saying that motortax should be based on that, and on that and so on.

On weight - yes, the more you weight they more you "USE" the road.
On size - same thing - more space you take.
On CO2 emissions - polluter pays - even though CO2 is harmless to humans and exists in our air naturally.
On engine size - the faster the more expensive
On vehicle age - the older the more expensive or maybe should be opposite - the newer the more expensive.

Generaly there might be million ideas what to base it on.

And I think, it shouldn't be based on anything. Basing motortax on something will unnaturally manupulate car market, and that's exactly what is happening now and what always used to happen in Ireland.
Taxes unnecerily manupulate the market, which should be free and left alone.

IMO there should be no motortax at all, as we live in 21st century and cars are no luxury goods anymore.
And if there really has to be one, it should be flat rates for everyone.

colm_mcm

Ronald Wilson Reagan wrote: »

Motor should be based on weight since heavier cars cause more wear on the roads. But then motor tax doesn't actually pay for the roads.

Do they though? Wouldn't things like tyre width be a factor too?
Can the amount of wear a single car causes vs another one even be quantified?
Should we tax people with kids more because they're more likely to have passengers?

Anchises

I see. But then still you would have people with 1998 regged cars crying about unfair tax!

Agreed ! But fairness is about arriving at a system that is fair to everbody....


Does the NCT measure CO2 emissions at every test ?
If so why not use that figure for pre 2001 cars ?

A.

colm_mcm

Tailpipe emissions at idle and emissions on a set driving route are completely different things.

shietpilot

Anchises wrote: »

Agreed ! But fairness is about arriving at a system that is fair to everbody....


Does the NCT measure CO2 emissions at every test ?
If so why not use that figure for pre 2001 cars ?

A.

Again, that would mean NCT centres have to cooperate with the motor tax office and it would add further costs.

Basically the best solution to this mess would be to decrease motor tax rates by at least 50% across the border. That would be a good and simple way to make tax a bit more fair but as I mentioned previously, the rates are way too high.

George Dalton

Anchises wrote: »

Does the NCT measure CO2 emissions at every test ?
.

This is a common misconception. The NCT measures Carbon Monoxide (CO) emissions as a percentage of what is coming out the tailpipe.

This has no bearing whatsoever on Carbon Dioxide (CO2) emissions in terms of grams per kilometre, which is what the current motor tax system is based on.

joeysoap

I was driving a 2007 Toyota Yaris when this new system was introduced. Car tax on a 2007 ( or pre 2007) Yaris was €185 at the time and €160 for a newly registered Yaris. I changed this Yaris for a new model in 2011. Car tax on the older Yaris has ncreased to €199 but car tax on the new Yaris ( much cleaner than the old model) has increased to €200. Go figure that one out.

http://www.cartell.ie/2012/12/budget-2013-significant-motor-tax-increases/

mickdw

colm_mcm wrote: »

Do they though? Wouldn't things like tyre width be a factor too?
Can the amount of wear a single car causes vs another one even be quantified?
Should we tax people with kids more because they're more likely to have passengers?

From studying road design many years ago, I seem to remember the number of truck movements was all that was considered in relation to design life of road structures.
To tax cars by size given the small differences between them would therefore not appear to be sensible if referencing road wear as a reason for the taxation.

Del2005

Anchises wrote: »

I don't dispute that at all. But the High rate of motor tax assumes a level of polution that I never achieve due to my low mileage , and I dare say the low mileage of many older cars. A tax on fuel would be more appropriate in the circumstances . Then the tax would co-relate directly to CO2 output and be fairer -After all the rational was "Polluter pays"


A.

Don't worry the cheap tax diesels will soon be banned from cities so old high tax petrols will increase in value. CO2 based tax was the biggest con perpetrated by the greens, let's encourage people to drive vehicles that might save the planet in a few years while inflicting dangerous pollution into people's lungs now.

My last car was a 2l auto which cost €750 to tax, I checked the CO2 rate and it would have cost €1500. Most older cars would have huge increases in tax if everything moved to CO2.

Anchises

The NCT measures Carbon Monoxide (CO) emissions as a percentage of what is coming out the tailpipe

I wonder - could their equipment measure CO2 also ? And if so , printing it on the NCT cert could help in respect of pre 2001 cars - to move all cars over to the CO2 based system.

Of course one problem is that manufacturers managed to reduce the CO2 so dramatically after 2008 that there was a severe loss of revenue to the Country. Maybe the Gov needs to screw pre 2008 cars to boost revenue. Remember there are over 1 Million pre -2008 cars on the road.

A.

Del2005

Anchises wrote: »

Does the NCT measure CO2 emissions at every test ?
If so why not use that figure for pre 2001 cars ?

A.

People would just lean the car down before the test to decrease the emissions, it's already done to get smoky oil burners to pass the test.

The fairest way is to increase the tax on fuel but that'll never happen.

George Dalton

Anchises wrote: »

I wonder - could their equipment measure CO2 also ? And if so , printing it on the NCT cert could help in respect of pre 2001 cars - to move all cars over to the CO2 based system.
.

They certainly could easily measure CO2 on the same basis as CO, but measuring on a percentage basis is totally irrelevant to the g/km figure that the tax is based on.

Anchises

Looks like I have to grin and bear my bill of 673.00 per annum . Sigh

Oh well ! A rant gets it off my cheat

A.

bigroad

Let people go to the co2 system if they want or stay on the old system. A somewhat fair playing field.
Anyway the new system is now eight years old so soon enough everyone will be on it.And also a pay as you go system ,it is 2016 after all.

George Dalton

Anchises wrote: »

Looks like I have to grin and bear my bill of 673.00 per annum . Sigh

If the tax on my car was only €673 I'd be fecking delighted!

Anchises

Anyway the new system is now eight years old so soon enough everyone will be on it.

Not me !

Perfect car with only 195K miles . It will last years yet ......

The motor tax may drive me to update someday, sadly.

Shame to see so many old cars forced off the road.

New cars replacing them produce no wealth to replace that destroyed when old ones are scrapped.

A.

Anchises

new system that evaluates their tax based on a measurement manufacturers only focused on reducing when it became taxable?

So what's new about industry moving the goalposts to reduce their tax bill ?

And why should we not all benefit from the improvements ?

A.

bigroad

Anchises wrote: »

Not me !

Perfect car with only 195K miles . It will last years yet ......

The motor tax may drive me to update someday, sadly.

Shame to see so many old cars forced off the road.

New cars replacing them produce no wealth to replace that destroyed when old ones are scrapped.

A.

If that is a Mazda 6 1.8 you are doing well with that mileage.

CiniO

shietpilot wrote: »

Again, that would mean NCT centres have to cooperate with the motor tax office and it would add further costs.

Basically the best solution to this mess would be to decrease motor tax rates by at least 50% across the border. That would be a good and simple way to make tax a bit more fair but as I mentioned previously, the rates are way too high.

There is too much spread on them anyway.
Situation when cheaperst motortax is 120 and most expensive 2350 which is nearly 20 times more than the cheapest is just silly.

What justification is there to ask some people to pay 20 times more than the others.

Most expensive rate should be no more than double the cheapest.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

colm_mcm

joeysoap wrote: »

I was driving a 2007 Toyota Yaris when this new system was introduced. Car tax on a 2007 ( or pre 2007) Yaris was €185 at the time and €160 for a newly registered Yaris. I changed this Yaris for a new model in 2011. Car tax on the older Yaris has ncreased to €199 but car tax on the new Yaris ( much cleaner than the old model) has increased to €200. Go figure that one out.

http://www.cartell.ie/2012/12/budget-2013-significant-motor-tax-increases/

Yep, early 08 Yariss on cc tax had €185 tax or something, then when the emissions tax came in in July, these cars went down to €156. Then they increased the CO2 tax rates so they ended up higher than they originally were!

George Dalton

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Says the fella driving a commercially taxed vehicle :pac:

colm_mcm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

To be fair, most people bemoaning the fact that post 08 cars get de chape tax don't realise that there were winners and losers in the changeover. People just didn't buy the losers after July 08. A lot of even slightly older cars have much higher Co2 emissions and would have high tax if the Co2 system was applied to them.

Examples, 1.0 Micra 03-05 199 on cc 302 on co2

That said, the cc rates are out of proportion as the engine size gets higher, the low cc rates are too low too. I would favour more evening out of the system with a minimum rate of €350 and smaller increments beyond that.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

26000 Elephants

co2 output is not 'measured' per se.

Its the cars fuel consumption expressed in terms of co2 rather than the amount of fuel.

Its a formula applied to the official 'mixed' l/100km value.

bigroad

People that need a midsized automatic car also lost out on the co2 system.
Auto s are pricey to tax.
750 upwards for most 08 to 11 cars.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

colm_mcm

I wouldn't say that. 96% of cars register in 2016 are in Band A or B
78% are in Band A.

bigroad

colm_mcm wrote: »

I wouldn't say that. 96% of cars register in 2016 are in Band A or B
78% are in Band A.

t too many v8 or v12 engines so.
What an exciting country for motors.

Anchises

Which Mazda 1.8 are you referring to OP. For reference a 2002 Mazda 6 1.8 would €750 to tax on the new system, €77 more than you currently pay. Still wanna move all cars to the new system?

Yikes ! That's not very encouraging !

Still it seems unfair to me that some road users pay 250 while I pay 673 for similar sized cars, while I do so little mileage.

A.

colm_mcm

bigroad wrote: »

t too many v8 or v12 engines so.
What an exciting country for motors.

Let's be honest, nobody bought v8 or v12 yokes in the first place.
Even just taking stuff like 2.9 litres or over. In 2007 they only accounted for 3% of registrations. And of those, half were jeeps and 70% were diesel. That's before Co2 came in.

Aside from that, manufacturers have moved towards less cylinders and forced induction. This had nothing to do with Ireland. Anyone wanting decent power can get it these days without needing to pay lots of tax or extra cylinders. Not as nice, but time marches on.

pburns

Anchises wrote: »

Yikes ! That's not very encouraging !

Still it seems unfair to me that some road users pay 250 while I pay 673 for similar sized cars, while I do so little mileage.

A.

More importantly, how many perfectly serviceable pre-08 cars will be prematurely scrapped because unfair and often stratospheric road tax renders them economically unviable?

How is that environmentally responsible in the bigger scheme of things?

BorneTobyWilde

Car is a car
If a person wants to have a 4.0 v8 and drive it a few miles a year they he should be allowed. The more he drives the more tax he pays on the fuel.
So all cars should be a low fixed rate, and who ever uses them more will be paying more as they use more fuel and in process pay more tax.
Its quite simple.

elperello

Of course the car tax system is unfair but that's the way it is for now.

Why shouldn't an enthusiast be able to have say a 3 litre car for week-end low mileage use without being taken to the cleaners for almost 1500 annually?

Anyone here who would like to add their name to a petition please use this link https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

BorneTobyWilde

All cars should be 200 a year regardless of year or Co2 .
Do I need a more expensive tv license for a 50 inch tv !

Anchises

I'm sure that scrapping is already going on.
Dealers with pre 2008 cars must be having a real hard time selling them nowadays.
It's a shame because the cars we have been driving since the Nineties are certainly capable of going on for longer then those we drove back along in the Eighties.

A.

Bigus

colm_mcm wrote: »

I wouldn't say that. 96% of cars register in 2016 are in Band A or B
78% are in Band A.

bigroad wrote: »

t too many v8 or v12 engines so.
What an exciting country for motors.

I'd say the CO2 based tax system has helped decreased drastically the import of barrels of oil to Ireland , which must be a good result.

On page nine of the report below the table shows the benefit of low co2 based tax which encourages efficient cars .

Diesel consumption 2014 is almost back up to boom time 2007 but petrol sales have halved ,

so would it be fair to say the same amount of miles are being driven ( much more diesel cars) now as in the boom but with an actual cut of half in petrol use but this is not just transferred to an equivalent increase in diesel consumption.

A net saving of 500,000,000 litres per year in petrol for a similar number of vehicles , just more efficient. Seems a sound enough argument for CO2 based tax.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/oil-market-analysis.pdf

the immortals

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

sign the petition

Anchises

A net saving of 500,000,000 litres per year in petrol for a similar number of vehicles , just more efficient. Seems a sound enough argument for CO2 based tax.

You're surely not arguing that the reduction is due to the Co2 system introduction ?
Most of the reduction must be due to the recession and the fall off in sales of cars and reduction in industrial activity ?


A.

colm_mcm

"If we get 100,000 likes, Enda Kenny will gives us all de chape tax"

Minister Boyce

Current car; 2.0l engine. in 2007 - Its annual Road Tax was €539, its now €710. In the current climate of 'pay restoration' why not have a budget where 'motor tax restoration' is brought back to 2007 rates....it'd be a good bloody start!! At the moment €539 is closer to the annual road tax for a 1.6 avensis... mad stuff.:(

bazz26

Wow, it feels like forever since we had the last "motor tax is unfair" thread.