Is it legal to open someone's post in work marked 'private and confidential'?

2rkehij30qtza5

Is it illegal to open someone's post in work if it's marked private and confidential clearly on the outside? This has happened to me..the letter left on my tray in work and then the envelope mysteriously being 'missing'....only for me doing a little investigation and finding said envelope in someone's bin. Same person who opened my letter has previously opened private and confidential post on me and then apologised "oh I made a mistake" when in reality she is just a really nosy biddy. I'm infuriated now as the letter she opened and then physically date-stamped was of a very personal nature (was unsolicited post but nonetheless v private) and it's blatantly clear that it was private from both the envelope and the contents. Thanks

moc moc a moc

Legal or not, I'd be lodging an official complaint with management/HR. Evidently you have let her get away with this before - if you never give her cause to take your objection seriously, she will never stop.

There is, however, the question of why you're receiving mail of personal nature in work to begin with? Surely it would make more sense to make sure anyone trying to contact you with private information sends it to your home address? Prevention is better than cure.

nuac

"Private and confidential" on an envelope should always be respected.

Not sure if any offence or actionable tort committed by anyone else opening such a letter, but it is very bad form

2rkehij30qtza5

moc moc a moc wrote: »

Legal or not, I'd be lodging an official complaint with management/HR. Evidently you have let her get away with this before - if you never give her cause to take your objection seriously, she will never stop.

There is, however, the question of why you're receiving mail of personal nature in work to begin with? Surely it would make more sense to make sure anyone trying to contact you with private information sends it to your home address? Prevention is better than cure.

Thanks. The odd time I'll get post in work that is private if it's going to be a large envelope that might not fit into my postbox at home. (Only have a small postbox attached to external wall at home and can't modify it as am renting). The letter in question in the current instance would have been coming to my home address...so I thought...but i had previously given them my work postal address due to them posting me a large envelope a number of months ago...they then used my work address for the current correspondsance.

Tom Young

See here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1983/act/24/section/84/enacted/en/html#sec84

It's an offence

2rkehij30qtza5

Tom Young wrote: »

See here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1983/act/24/section/84/enacted/en/html#sec84

It's an offence

Many thanks

GM228

How was the leffter "left" on your desk? i.e is it an internal letter or a letter sent via a postal service provider?

The offence only applies to post sent via a postal service provider.

This is the current provision but more or less the same as the last link.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/21/section/53/enacted/en/html#sec53

An addressee is a person, a person is both a physical being and a company under law so whilst it's addressed to you it's also addressed to your employers address so could it be argued that an employer isn't committing any offence if they open the mail as it's also addressed to them hypothetically speaking?

2rkehij30qtza5

GM228 wrote: »

How was the leffter "left" on your desk? i.e is it an internal letter or a letter sent via a postal service provider?

The offence only applies to post sent via a postal service provider.

This is the current provision but more or less the same as the last link.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/21/section/53/enacted/en/html#sec53

An addressee is a person, a person is both a physical being and a company under law so whilst it's addressed to you it's also addressed to your employers address so could it be argued that an employer isn't committing any offence if they open the mail as it's also addressed to them hypothetically speaking?

It wasn't left on my desk. It was left on my tray in a communal area where all post is left in individuals' trays/cubby holes. It was sent by An Post...wasn't internal mail

harr

Yosef Great Nail wrote: »

It wasn't left on my desk. It was left on my tray in a communal area where all post is left in individuals' trays/cubby holes. It was sent by An Post...wasn't internal mail

Well it's time to speak to HR/ management, maybe this person is opening other people's mail as well and then dumping it....it's highly illegal what she is doing and management will have to sort it out...god only knows how many other pieces of mail she has tampered with.. I certainly wouldn't be happy working alongside someone like that.

Butters1979

It's illegal to open someone else's mail, regardless if is says 'private or confidential' or not.
OP, do not accept this. I would raise it with HR and mention quite clearly how this is illegal.

2rkehij30qtza5

Thanks everyone. I'll have to contact HR

Mrs OBumble

Butters1979 wrote: »

It's illegal to open someone else's mail, regardless if is says 'private or confidential' or not.
OP, do not accept this. I would raise it with HR and mention quite clearly how this is illegal.

Tom Young wrote: »

See here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1983/act/24/section/84/enacted/en/html#sec84

It's an offence

Hang on, it's not that clear-cut. Firstly, note that the law (as linked to above) says:

Subsection (1) shall not apply to any person who is acting—

(a) in virtue of any power conferred on the company by section 83 , or

(b) in pursuance of a direction issued by the Minister under section 110 , or

(c) under other lawful authority.

The last bit about lawful authority is what applies to mail you get at work.

Companies usually have someone whose designated job it is to open the incoming mail, to date it and to log the receipt, and to assign the correspondence to the correct person (which may not be the person it was addressed to).

Sometimes there is a company policy not to open mail marked "private and confidential".

But sometimes there is a policy that private-and-confidential should be ignored, or that only mail for manager should be treated in this way.

Staff in general should not be receiving private mail at work, and if they are the employer has a right (and possibly even a responsibility under health and safety / stress management) to know about it.


OP, if the person who opened your mail doesn't have mail-opening as part of their job, then you have an issue to take up with HR. Ditto if they do, and there's a policy about not opening P&C mail. Otherwise, I think it's a non-issue.


(And in future, sign up to Parcel Motel or something, and get stuff that's too bit for your box delivered there: your employer is not your personal address!)

Graham

Companies or individuals cannot just decide they are a 'lawful authority' regardless of policy.

OP check your employee handbook before approaching HR. Some companies have policies about personal mail being sent to work.

Del2005

Graham wrote: »

Companies or individuals cannot just decide they are a 'lawful authority' regardless of policy.

OP check your employee handbook before approaching HR. Some companies have policies about personal mail being sent to work.

IIRC An Post deliver to the address not the person, so once the letter is inside the building it's considered delivered. Inside the building would it then be considered internal mail and not covered by the statute?

Graham

Del2005 wrote: »

IIRC An Post deliver to the address not the person, so once the letter is inside the building it's considered delivered. Inside the building would it then be considered internal mail and not covered by the statute?

I'm open to correction, do you have a source?

stoplooklisten

I always think it's a bit dodgy employees getting stuff delivered to work, it could be drugs or other contraband.

Speedwell

When I was an executive assistant working for an international company years ago, we were required to open, sort, and preprocess all of the mail for the executives we worked for. After a few "P&C" mails, the office manager got us X-assts and secretaries together and we decided we would refuse to open any envelope marked so. The executives kicked up a fuss (I cannot imagine why; they just told us "we expect you to do your jobs the way we tell you") but the CEO backed us up. Even at the express and insistent direction of the executives, it was considered too much risk for us; we didn't want to be drawn in to any legal messes on our own behalf or that of the company. I can't even fathom why someone would voluntarily incur that risk unless they were literally too stupid to be allowed to work in an office.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

stoplooklisten wrote: »

I always think it's a bit dodgy employees getting stuff delivered to work, it could be drugs or other contraband.

True, but said person opening the mail does not know this and if suspisious, is not in authority to act this way. (Of ocurse, I'm guessing the second part on the basis that there was an apology after the first occurance).

Palmach

As the owner of a company I open ALL letters that are addressed to my business address irrespective of what name is on them or if has private or any other word on it. You want personal mail get it sent to your house address.

Graham

Palmach wrote: »

As the owner of a company I open ALL letters that are addressed to my business address irrespective of what name is on them or if has private or any other word on it. You want personal mail get it sent to your house address.

Just because you do it, that doesn't make it legal.

Speedwell

Palmach wrote: »

As the owner of a company I open ALL letters that are addressed to my business address irrespective of what name is on them or if has private or any other word on it. You want personal mail get it sent to your house address.

Wow, most company owners I've known aren't also secretaries, go you. Do you also answer all the phones on the theory that all calls to your business are meant for your ears, and read all the e-mails before forwarding them on?

Palmach

Palmach wrote: »

As the owner of a company I open ALL letters that are addressed to my business address irrespective of what name is on them or if has private or any other word on it. You want personal mail get it sent to your house address.

if it was unlike the person lets say, a one off, though addressed to said person in a small jiffy bag marked private, you'd still tear into it? rather than just passing it on? correct?

wow, business at palmack private investigators must be booming so!!

what a nice boss you are, lets hope someone orders an ounce of Anthrax some time soon.

stoplooklisten

rusty cole wrote: »

wow, business at palmack private investigators must be booming so!!

what a nice boss you are, lets hope someone orders an ounce of Anthrax some time soon.

So you have no problem if your boss started using your home adress to get his business letters?

Speedwell

rusty cole wrote: »

wow, business at palmack private investigators must be booming so!!

Naah, seriously now, in my long history of being a secretary, executive assistant, and office manager in temporary and permanent capacities, I know Palmach's scenario is not how any office works in reality unless the owner works alone.

L1011

Palmach wrote: »

As the owner of a company I open ALL letters that are addressed to my business address irrespective of what name is on them or if has private or any other word on it. You want personal mail get it sent to your house address.

Let me guess, your company hasn't actually got any staff?

If you actually have staff (or a business, for that matter) and you have time to do that...

sbsquarepants

Is it not a simple of case that if you are using the jobs resources, their computers, their phones, their buildings or vehicles - they have every right to look at what you are doing. Emails, phone calls, letters are all fair game, if you want to keep something private - don't do it in work, simple!
If Janet the nosy receptionist opens up your discreet brown paper package containing your mail order drugs, your gold plated rampant rabbit, or the bad news about your STD results - you really only have yourself to blame

Graham

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Is it not a simple of case that if you are using the jobs resources, their computers, their phones, their buildings or vehicles - they have every right to look at what you are doing. Emails, phone calls, letters are all fair game, if you want to keep something private - don't do it in work, simple!

I don't see anything that suggests the law stops at the office door.

Avatar MIA

My understanding is that statutory protection stops once the letter is delivered to the address.

After that if the person that opens the post is the normal person opening the post then Private and Personal doesn't add any protection, it's simply a curtesy not to open.

That's not to say it's not very rude, but you've no come back on the company - and, strictly speaking, you should not receive personal post at your company's address (but we all do it, myself included).

Your only outlet is to complain on a privacy issue, but I've a feeling the busy body knows she's on safe ground.

Graham

Avatar MIA wrote: »

My understanding is that statutory protection stops once the letter is delivered to the address.

That was suggested earlier in the thread, any source?

Avatar MIA

Graham wrote: »

That was suggested earlier in the thread, any source?

Me.

I'm passing on my understanding from what I've read previously. Am I going to search for that information now? No... and you're not even the OP

Graham

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Me.

I'm passing on my understanding from what I've read previously. Am I going to search for that information now? No... and you're not even the OP

That makes two of us

The wording of the legislation specifies 'Person' (not address) but there may be something I've missed.

stoplooklisten

Graham wrote: »

That was suggested earlier in the thread, any source?

The expression “post letter” shall mean a postal packet, as defined by this Act, from the time of its being delivered to a post office to the time of its being delivered to the person to whom it is addressed, and a delivery of a postal packet of any description to a letter carrier or other person authorised to receive postal packets of that description for the post shall be a delivery to the post office, and a delivery at the house or office of the person to whom the postal packet is addressed, or to him or to his servant or agent, or other person considered to be authorised to receive the postal packet according to the usual manner of delivering that person’s postal packets, shall be a delivery to the person addressed.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1884/act/76/section/19/enacted/en/html

Graham

stoplooklisten wrote: »

The expression “post letter” shall mean a postal packet, as defined by this Act, from the time of its being delivered to a post office to the time of its being delivered to the person to whom it is addressed, and a delivery of a postal packet of any description to a letter carrier or other person authorised to receive postal packets of that description for the post shall be a delivery to the post office, and a delivery at the house or office of the person to whom the postal packet is addressed, or to him or to his servant or agent, or other person considered to be authorised to receive the postal packet according to the usual manner of delivering that person’s postal packets, shall be a delivery to the person addressed.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1884/act/76/section/19/enacted/en/html

Highlights added but nothing in there suggests it's ok for anyone else to open the post.

sbsquarepants

Graham wrote: »

I don't see anything that suggests the law stops at the office door.

Me either. I also don't see anything that suggests you have any right to use your employers premises for private business - they may well allow you to, but it is not a given.

stoplooklisten

and a delivery of a postal packet of any description to a letter carrier or other person authorised to receive postal packets of that description for the post shall be a delivery to the post office, and a delivery at the house or office of the person to whom the postal packet is addressed, or to him or to his servant or agent, or other person considered to be authorised to receive the postal packet according to the usual manner of delivering that person’s postal packets, shall be a delivery to the person addressed.

GM228

stoplooklisten wrote: »

The expression “post letter” shall mean a postal packet, as defined by this Act, from the time of its being delivered to a post office to the time of its being delivered to the person to whom it is addressed, and a delivery of a postal packet of any description to a letter carrier or other person authorised to receive postal packets of that description for the post shall be a delivery to the post office, and a delivery at the house or office of the person to whom the postal packet is addressed, or to him or to his servant or agent, or other person considered to be authorised to receive the postal packet according to the usual manner of delivering that person’s postal packets, shall be a delivery to the person addressed.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1884/act/76/section/19/enacted/en/html

Yes that's correct, a letter is delivered to the address of the home or office of the person as opposed to the actual person, however there is nothing in law regarding the offence of opening the letter which suggests the offence is no longer applicable after it is delivered!

Graham

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Me either. I also don't see anything that suggests you have any right to use your employers premises for private business - they may well allow you to, but it is not a given.

Good theory, any relevant legislation?

stoplooklisten

GM228 wrote: »

Yes that's correct, a letter is delivered to the address of the home or office of the person as opposed to the actual person, however there is nothing in law regarding the offence of opening the letter which suggests the offence is no longer applicable after it is delivered!

The data protection act covers the mail from the door and basically it boils down to what the company policy is on monitoring in the workplace.

Graham

stoplooklisten wrote: »

The data protection act covers the mail from the door and basically it boils down to what the company policy is on monitoring in the workplace.

The data protection act doesn't automatically override any other legislation that may also apply.

stoplooklisten

Graham wrote: »

The data protection act doesn't automatically override any other legislation that may also apply.

Can you quote the legislation you are referring to that it may override or not?

Graham

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Can you quote the legislation you are referring to that it may override or not?

Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983

84.—(1) A person who—

(a) opens or attempts to open a postal packet addressed to another person or delays or detains any such postal packet or does anything to prevent its due delivery or authorises, suffers or permits another person (who is not the person to whom the postal packet is addressed) to do so, or

(b) discloses the existence or contents of any such postal packet, or

(c) uses for any purpose any information obtained from any such postal packet, or

(d) tampers with any such postal packet,

without the agreement of the person to whom the postal packet is addressed shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) Subsection (1) shall not apply to any person who is acting—

(a) in virtue of any power conferred on the company by section 83 , or

(b) in pursuance of a direction issued by the Minister under section 110 , or

(c) under other lawful authority.

(3) (a) The company may, with the consent of the Minister, make regulations to carry out the intentions of this section in so far as concerns members of its staff.

(b) The Minister, after consultation with the company, may direct the company to make regulations under paragraph (a) or to amend or revoke regulations made under that paragraph and the company shall comply with that direction.

(c) A person who contravenes any regulation under this subsection shall be guilty of an offence.

GM228

Graham wrote: »

Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983

S84 was repealed and replaced by the link I provided earlier, both more or less worded the same.

As I stated there is nothing in law which says the offence for opening the letter dosn't apply once delivered, it still applies after delivery, problem is it's addressed to both a physical person and a company (i.e the company address) so either can technically open it as "person" means both a physical person and a company.

Ashbx

Im don't know for certain but in the firm I work in, we have a post room. The assistant in there opens all post, it then goes to the CEO who has a brief check through it all and then gets distributed to the necessary people. I just asked the post man in our office and he said that he was told to open EVERY letter by the CEO (even it if is marked confidential) but chooses not to.

Although I do get personal stuff sent to work for convenience purposes (sometimes out of necessity), if its that confidential and personal, it really should have been sent to your private address. Id be prepared for HR to throw that back in your face!

Markcheese

Unless i'm mistaken,the OP doesnt really want the nosey old bat fired or arrested or anything, just to stop sticking her nose in where it doesnt belong.
If you've got a HR department or person go talk to them, get them to lay it on thick...or go have a chat with her (witnessed),but dont get mad..

2rkehij30qtza5

Markcheese wrote: »

Unless i'm mistaken,the OP doesnt really want the nosey old bat fired or arrested or anything, just to stop sticking her nose in where it doesnt belong.
If you've got a HR department or person go talk to them, get them to lay it on thick...or go have a chat with her (witnessed),but dont get mad..

OP here. Exactly. I don't want World War 3 or anything...she's difficult and temperamental enough to work with at the best of times. It's just the sheer nosiness of it. She will only say she did it 'by accident' as she has said before, when I know FULL WELL it's totally deliberate.

riffmongous

Is this discussion similar to receiving mail at a house you are a licensee at?

Mrs OBumble

Ashbx wrote: »

Im don't know for certain but in the firm I work in, we have a post room. The assistant in there opens all post, it then goes to the CEO who has a brief check through it all and then gets distributed to the necessary people. I just asked the post man in our office and he said that he was told to open EVERY letter by the CEO (even it if is marked confidential) but chooses not to.

That is the way 99% of companies operate: it is someone's delegated job to open the mail, employees do not have any right to direct dealings with customers.

In fact, for many of us, company policies forbid receiving personal mail at work.

Sapphire

Yosef Great Nail wrote: »

OP here. Exactly. I don't want World War 3 or anything...she's difficult and temperamental enough to work with at the best of times. It's just the sheer nosiness of it. She will only say she did it 'by accident' as she has said before, when I know FULL WELL it's totally deliberate.

I had the same thing happen to me too. It was exam results and I assumed the results would be posted to home which was the primary contact for them. The person who processes the post opened it up, knowing exactly what it was - the envelope had the institute logo and its full name on it. Opened by mistake, my arse.

I decided to let it slide even though I wasn't happy about it. The person was quite senior and long standing staff member, I was relatively new so it would only backfire on me and make me look petty getting worked up over a mistake. My partner said that I should start sending myself all sorts of stuff, like head-hunting job offers and see how quickly the gossip mill worked.

2rkehij30qtza5

Sapphire wrote: »

I had the same thing happen to me too. It was exam results and I assumed the results would be posted to home which was the primary contact for them. The person who processes the post opened it up, knowing exactly what it was - the envelope had the institute logo and its full name on it. Opened by mistake, my arse.

I decided to let it slide even though I wasn't happy about it. The person was quite senior and long standing staff member, I was relatively new so it would only backfire on me and make me look petty getting worked up over a mistake. My partner said that I should start sending myself all sorts of stuff, like head-hunting job offers and see how quickly the gossip mill worked.

Hilarious...I have thought about doing the same thing!!!! A few head hunting job offers and I would guarantee it would be everywhere within the offices. Same as that in the current case....my primary contact was home and it came unsolicited to work, which I was a bit shocked by but nonetheless, I know it was opened deliberately.
And I know the excuse would be a "mistake" and my life wouldn't be worth living in there again if I challenged her.

Ashbx

Sapphire wrote: »

I had the same thing happen to me too. It was exam results and I assumed the results would be posted to home which was the primary contact for them. The person who processes the post opened it up, knowing exactly what it was - the envelope had the institute logo and its full name on it. Opened by mistake, my arse.

I decided to let it slide even though I wasn't happy about it. The person was quite senior and long standing staff member, I was relatively new so it would only backfire on me and make me look petty getting worked up over a mistake. My partner said that I should start sending myself all sorts of stuff, like head-hunting job offers and see how quickly the gossip mill worked.

Im not sure its your colleagues job to examine every envelope checking for school logos on the off chance he/she would know "oh this is a personal one...better not open it". I do realise it was the school/colleges fault if your home details were the details they should have used but come on folks, people need to take responsibility for their own stuff here.

In this case, I would be blaming the college for sending it to the wrong address (although, one begs a question why they would even have your place of work if you didn't give it to them previously)....not your colleague who is only doing their job!