Personal Days/local arrangement at 2nd level

mirrorwall14

Following some protracted debate in our school this year and now on boards, I'm just wondering what arrangements other schools have in relation to personal days/emergency situations

In our school ETB sector there is no arrangement and we are not allowed to ask other members of staff to cover for each other at all.

In an emergency where we have to leave management will try to accommodate us. Thus far this has generally been granted. There is no other allowance.

We have been told by management and TUI backed them that force majeure is incredibly hard to get approved and it essentially needs to be an emergency run to A and E

The debate arose over a teacher taking an uncertified to look after their sick child. It transpires that a teacher in our school was challenged (and unpaid) for one of these in the past and the staff got talking to realise there really isn't any discretionary days available at all in our school for this situation or anything similar like bringing a parent to a hospital appointment

Just wondering what others have?

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Following some protracted debate in our school this year and now on boards, I'm just wondering what arrangements other schools have in relation to personal days/emergency situations

In our school ETB sector there is no arrangement and we are not allowed to ask other members of staff to cover for each other at all.

In an emergency where we have to leave management will try to accommodate us. Thus far this has generally been granted. There is no other allowance.

The debate arose over a teacher taking an uncertified to look after their sick child. It transpires that a teacher in our school was challenged (and unpaid) for one of these in the past and the staff got talking to realise there really isn't any discretionary days available at all in our school for this situation or anything similar like bringing a parent to a hospital appointment

Just wondering what others have?

Uncertified sick day to look after sick child = force majeure

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

Uncertified sick day to look after sick child = force majeure

Clarified post. Our management (and the TUI agreed) have told us that force majeure is only for the severest emergencies, not for minding a sick child. It's the in between stuff we're wondering about.

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Clarified post. Our management (and the TUI agreed) have told us that force majeure is only for the severest emergencies, not for minding a sick child. It's the in between stuff we're wondering about.

If your child has a fever and you are the only person available to take care of child that's a severe emergency in my eyes ! I've never had to use it thankfully but I would not be happy with my Union if they were telling me it's not an acceptable use of it !
Anyway our principal must be more understanding than the one in yere school.......

solerina

is there anyway that your staff could come together and agree to cover for each other like we in Vol Sec do for 'Personal Days'. Surely if ye all agreed and your classes were covered management cold turn a blind eye.
In my school we ask management, then put up a notice on staffroom board, whoever is free fills this in. No-one has ever been denied a personal day, most people take 0,1,2 per year...no one ever takes more (in my school anyway).

ethical

I wouldnt really blame the Principals for the issues arising here.I think most of them are human and would have similar problems themselves that they may need covered but what I do know is that the ETBs are an absolute nightmare for looking for paper work,(certs etc) for anytime at all out of school,they have driven our secretary and many more secretaries besides over the edge even regarding self certification days.I suppose it comes from them (ETBs) having to 'get' the money back from the Dept and having to make sure every 'i' is dotted and 't' crossed.

mirrorwall14

solerina wrote: »

is there anyway that your staff could come together and agree to cover for each other like we in Vol Sec do for 'Personal Days'. Surely if ye all agreed and your classes were covered management cold turn a blind eye.
In my school we ask management, then put up a notice on staffroom board, whoever is free fills this in. No-one has ever been denied a personal day, most people take 0,1,2 per year...no one ever takes more (in my school anyway).

This is what the discussion at the staff meeting was before Christmas. We requested this and were told that no system where you ask colleagues yourselves will be permitted (including sticking it on the wall). It was shelved at the time, no ones brought it up since. I'm guessing the teacher who did reckoned they were on a hiding to nothing. Everything awkward gets put on the back burner at our meetings

solerina

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

This is what the discussion at the staff meeting was before Christmas. We requested this and were told that no system where you ask colleagues yourselves will be permitted (including sticking it on the wall). It was shelved at the time, no ones brought it up since. I'm guessing the teacher who did reckoned they were on a hiding to nothing. Everything awkward gets put on the back burner at our meetings

It seems rediculous if ye are willing to help each other out that they won't let ye do it...surely if it is within reason that it shouldn't matter to the powers that be. If it was me I would organise a union meeting, discuss it and try to get everyone behind ye...power in sticking together, at least try to push a trial period..if at all possible !!

deiseindublin

In our place you have to ask for the day off and then get cover for your classes yourself, but only allowed ask PWT teachers that wouldn't be doing deputies etc.

Millem

We email each other. All our timetables are online so we can see who is free.
Our management are very good with personal days. At the same time I will cover any s &s management ask me too even if I have already done it or will cover at short notice no problem.

TheDriver

there is no such thing as force majeure anymore, its now called compassionate leave (including berevement etc). The idea being force majeure was for emergency situations requiring medical intervention hence documentation is required. THis is still the case with compassionate leave. It is not for appointments because in theory you can rearrange. For minding a sick child, you take a sick day yourself hence why people need to mind their 7 days.

In a well organised and professional school, covering a colleagues classes in rare circumstances should be permitted once its given to the P or DP in case anyone is absent on the day. This would be for situations such as taking a relative to an appointment or family days such as communions. Unfortunately there has been situations where someone would get their own cover so they can book holidays and come back on Mon after mid terms to get cheaper prices and as much as it saves money, its irresponsible and unprofessional.

We all have to work together and get on with each other so bit like people shouldn't be causing trouble for no reason, the P and DP should be facilitating genuine issues such as this

mirrorwall14

TheDriver wrote: »

there is no such thing as force majeure anymore, its now called compassionate leave (including berevement etc). The idea being force majeure was for emergency situations requiring medical intervention hence documentation is required. THis is still the case with compassionate leave. It is not for appointments because in theory you can rearrange. For minding a sick child, you take a sick day yourself hence why people need to mind their 7 days.

In a well organised and professional school, covering a colleagues classes in rare circumstances should be permitted once its given to the P or DP in case anyone is absent on the day. This would be for situations such as taking a relative to an appointment or family days such as communions. Unfortunately there has been situations where someone would get their own cover so they can book holidays and come back on Mon after mid terms to get cheaper prices and as much as it saves money, its irresponsible and unprofessional.

We all have to work together and get on with each other so bit like people shouldn't be causing trouble for no reason, the P and DP should be facilitating genuine issues such as this

Uncertified sick days are for when you are sick not when a child is sick.

TheDriver

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Uncertified sick days are for when you are sick not when a child is sick.

Don't shoot the messenger, this is the information I get told as Principal which I pass onto staff: Its not my place to tell people what they should do but merely advise on the options available..........There are a good few teachers out there who treat uncertified sick days as "I need a day off because I am entitled to them" days too. And unfortunately its these teachers that caused the reduction to 7 in 2 years. Vast majority of teachers never use their 7 days over 2 years.

man_no_plan

A few things...

In any other job would you get paid time off to go to a communion or confirmation?

If you're not there your classes arent being taught by you and that needs to be remembered.

On the other hand

A whole load of time off in the summer isnt much use to you for day to day things which means there needs to be some system locally.

It needs to be used sparingly though because of the first two points.

I know of cases where teachers have made private arrangements of a Friday afternoon so that thy could beat the traffic or whatever that's desperate carry on in my view.

There is of course unpaid leave, but nobody wants to talk about that.

mirrorwall14

TheDriver wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger, this is the information I get told as Principal which I pass onto staff: Its not my place to tell people what they should do but merely advise on the options available..........There are a good few teachers out there who treat uncertified sick days as "I need a day off because I am entitled to them" days too. And unfortunately its these teachers that caused the reduction to 7 in 2 years. Vast majority of teachers never use their 7 days over 2 years.

Oh I'm not trying to shoot the messenger sorry but we have had a staff member pulled up on using uncertified when she wasn't sick.

My issue is the lack of clarity. Either those 7 uncertified are discretionary days that can be used whenever, or force majeure or actual uncertified sick days but it needs to be explicit.

And in relation to unpaid time off, I've worked in the private sector and my husband works in the private sector. I love our holidays but I resent the utter inflexibility. I'm in the care of the public hospital system, I don't get choice on times for appointments and even when I do try and schedule for outside of school hours more often than not they get moved and if I don't turn up then I lose my place in the system. There is no accommodation for this type of thing except local arrangements in school. On the other hand the private companies I worked for in the past and my husbands private companies will let you pop off for the few hours for the appointment. When we need to take our lad to the doc it's my husband who has to take him (and he gets paid leave to do it, nor does it come out of his annual leave).

Sligo1

TheDriver wrote: »

there is no such thing as force majeure anymore, its now called compassionate leave (including berevement etc). The idea being force majeure was for emergency situations requiring medical intervention hence documentation is required. THis is still the case with compassionate leave. It is not for appointments because in theory you can rearrange. For minding a sick child, you take a sick day yourself hence why people need to mind their 7 days.

This is incorrect. FM is not now classified as compassionate leave. They are completely different legal entitlements. While it is true that FM cannot be used for prearranged appointments etc it can be used for emergency situations or when your presence is indespensible. Eg. If your child becomes ill and you are called to collect them etc OR eg on more severe cases like bringing them to ED. Sick days are not for sick children

Sligo1

From citizens information:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/types_of_leave_from_work.html

joebloggs32

It should all work on common sense, eg A family wedding, take a personal day covered by colleagues. However, taking a day to go shopping at Christmas etc os taking the urine in my opinion.
As the driver stated, its due to people abusing leave etc that stricter rules are now in place.
Luckily for me where I am its a big staffroom, so getting cover for personal leave is easy enough, and management are happy once you get your cover in place.

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

there is no such thing as force majeure anymore, its now called compassionate leave (including berevement etc). The idea being force majeure was for emergency situations requiring medical intervention hence documentation is required. THis is still the case with compassionate leave. It is not for appointments because in theory you can rearrange. For minding a sick child, you take a sick day yourself hence why people need to mind their 7 days.

In a well organised and professional school, covering a colleagues classes in rare circumstances should be permitted once its given to the P or DP in case anyone is absent on the day. This would be for situations such as taking a relative to an appointment or family days such as communions. Unfortunately there has been situations where someone would get their own cover so they can book holidays and come back on Mon after mid terms to get cheaper prices and as much as it saves money, its irresponsible and unprofessional.

We all have to work together and get on with each other so bit like people shouldn't be causing trouble for no reason, the P and DP should be facilitating genuine issues such as this

I know of 2 people who have taken force majeure in the last 2 months

TheDriver

km79 wrote: »

I know of 2 people who have taken force majeure in the last 2 months

Its a bit like Vice Principal, people use terminology that has been used for decades in the profession but there is no force majeure on the system anymore, we select compassionate leave for all these types of brief absences. Whenever we select it, documentation is then requested from higher up.

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

Its a bit like Vice Principal, people use terminology that has been used for decades in the profession but there is no force majeure on the system anymore, we select compassionate leave for all these types of brief absences. Whenever we select it, documentation is then requested from higher up.

No documentation required
Children with fevers .......

ethical

ETBs love a paper trail,cannot function without one!

icebergiceberg

TheDriver wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger, this is the information I get told as Principal which I pass onto staff: Its not my place to tell people what they should do but merely advise on the options available..........There are a good few teachers out there who treat uncertified sick days as "I need a day off because I am entitled to them" days too. And unfortunately its these teachers that caused the reduction to 7 in 2 years. Vast majority of teachers never use their 7 days over 2 years.

Have you hard evidence re this? I would very much like to see it. In our place I would agree with that but teachers get a tough ride with the media about time off. How many TDs/Senators take time off to go to funerals etc when they should be doing ... eh constituency work?

I have taken FM in the past on numerous occasions when a family member needed my presence. No doctor's letter etc was required or anything like that. All that I was asked to do (by the ETB) was to make sure to write down that it was an emergency. Which it was.

Taking an uncertified day to attend to family sickness unprofessional? If you have used up all compassionate/FM days I would have no hesitation in doing so. If your 4 year old child is seriously ill and there is nobody to mind her and you have used up all days except uncertified days, it's a no brainer.

Starkystark

Sorry to dig up an old thread - I have just got a letter for a hospital appointment next month - non-pregnancy related.

I have waited months for this appointment - so I don't really want to reschedule it. I'm post-primary. I've never had to attend an appointment during school time before - so what does one do?

Millem

Starkystark wrote: »

Sorry to dig up an old thread - I have just got a letter for a hospital appointment next month - non-pregnancy related.

I have waited months for this appointment - so I don't really want to reschedule it. I'm post-primary. I've never had to attend an appointment during school time before - so what does one do?

Certified sick leave.

TheValeyard

Millem wrote: »

Certified sick leave.

I've used a personal day for something like this before. Just send a letter to the secretary of the board of management (usually the principal) requesting the day off.

Millem

TheValeyard wrote: »

I've used a personal day for something like this before. Just send a letter to the secretary of the board of management (usually the principal) requesting the day off.

In my school you need to sort out your own cover.
My vice principal told me it was certified sick leave you get a letter from consultant’s secretary saying you were unable to attend work on x day.

joebloggs32

Starkystark wrote: »

Sorry to dig up an old thread - I have just got a letter for a hospital appointment next month - non-pregnancy related.

I have waited months for this appointment - so I don't really want to reschedule it. I'm post-primary. I've never had to attend an appointment during school time before - so what does one do?

Take it as a days certified sick leave. Gove a copy of the appointment to your DP/P and it should be sufficient.

Starkystark

Thank you so much

mirrorwall14

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Take it as a days certified sick leave. Gove a copy of the appointment to your DP/P and it should be sufficient.

A copy of the appt is not enough in our ETB, it needs to be a letter from them saying you attended not just the appt. The doctors secretaries will oblige after the appt.

It’s interesting to read back over this four years later. We still have no system but it’s now worse in that a lot of people are now told they cannot be covered and are not supposed to ask colleagues for assistance which is still very frustrating. Having said that in my own case so far I have had no refusals (eg call from crèche and needing to leave at short notice). I am very obliging when it comes to stepping into a class at short notice or if I find one unsupervised etc and try to repay the favour so perhaps it’s a case of helping out to get helped who knows.

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

A copy of the appt is not enough in our ETB, it needs to be a letter from them saying you attended not just the appt. The doctors secretaries will oblige after the appt.

This is the same for us!

Mirrorwall would the call from crèche not come under force majure?

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

This is the same for us!

Mirrorwall would the call from crèche not come under force majure?

Wouldn't have required a hospital visit. Just he couldn't be kept in creche

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Wouldn't have required a hospital visit. Just he couldn't be kept in creche

But you had to take care of him at short notice due to illness ?
I’d say that’s force majeure

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Wouldn't have required a hospital visit. Just he couldn't be kept in creche

Force majeure means “ This leave covers situations where, for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensably required at the place where the family member is.”

doc_17

If management are being a-holes about it then it’s time to turn it around on management. When they come looking for something, stand up for yourselves and say no. If they don’t want to play ball then it should cost them.

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

If management are being a-holes about it then it’s time to turn it around on management. When they come looking for something, stand up for yourselves and say no. If they don’t want to play ball then it should cost them.

I have to say my principals have always been very understanding in situations like this
That’s why I was unsure if force majeure covered it as the very rare times I’ve had to look for cover in this situation it was looked after no questions asked
Voluntary secondary schools not etb so that may be different

doc_17

It all depends on the principal in my experience, whether it’s ETB, community or religious. We have a new one and they are a bit more of a stickler about it. I’ll be doing what I always do though. I’ll get the cover, nobody that is on call, give it to the deputy, ask the principal as a courtesy. If that system breaks down then I would ring in sick and they can use their S&S.

ethical

Be very careful! ETB will require paperwork and while your Principal may be wonderful in accomadating you there will be a request later on from Head Office for paperwork.I ve seen it,even in a case of Force Majeure which has not been sorted yet for a colleague.

It is nigh on impossible in many schools now to get colleagues (who are not on S&S) to cover for you as timetables are so tight and any class you may have "off" according to your timetable is taken up with some fcukin box ticking meeting be it SLAR or some other waste of time,

Many years ago some teachers destroyed the fairly decent working conditions the profession had by taking days and sometimes more without batting an eylid.Is it any wonder the Dept ,Paschal et al put an end to such carry-on and now we have the unequal pay fiasco.....9 years on! And of course through natural wastage the unequal pay will be very equal very soon as everyone will be on the lower pay as the senior teachers have moved closer to retirement.Just add up the saving made in the last 9 years alone and you will see the huge pot Paschal has "saved" by treating young teachers like a piece of dog poo! The whole idea of taking personal day that may have been needed for appointments were most certainly taken to the extreme by some and now these same people are basking in their Golden Years with lovely full pensions and fcuk the rest of ye!

Millem

I found the leave section in the dept of Education very helpful over the years.
I have always managed with Granny etc when the kids were sick but last year they had the vomiting bug.
It was like a scene from a horror movie! My own VP wanted to mark it as my own sick leave. Leave section told me it was covered under “illness of a family member leave”. It is not the same as force majuere.
I had to get a doctor’s cert for my kids saying they had the vomiting bug and where able to attend school/Montesorri.

It might be of some use to someone.
“Illness of a family member leave of 5 days in a school year in the case of a spouse, child or parent OR 3 days in a school year in the case of a brother, sister, grand-parent, aunt, uncle, or parent-in law.
When applying for this type of leave the teacher must provide certification from a medical practitioner stating that the family member concerned requires constant care and attention for the period of recuperation from the illness.”

Thankfully I have only had to use it once.

mirrorwall14

Millem wrote: »

I found the leave section in the dept of Education very helpful over the years.
I have always managed with Granny etc when the kids were sick but last year they had the vomiting bug.
It was like a scene from a horror movie! My own VP wanted to mark it as my own sick leave. Leave section told me it was covered under “illness of a family member leave”. It is not the same as force majuere.
I had to get a doctor’s cert for my kids saying they had the vomiting bug and where able to attend school/Montesorri.

It might be of some use to someone.
“Illness of a family member leave of 5 days in a school year in the case of a spouse, child or parent OR 3 days in a school year in the case of a brother, sister, grand-parent, aunt, uncle, or parent-in law.
When applying for this type of leave the teacher must provide certification from a medical practitioner stating that the family member concerned requires constant care and attention for the period of recuperation from the illness.”

Thankfully I have only had to use it once.

Is this primary or post primary Millem? That sounds exactly what I needed

Millem

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Is this primary or post primary Millem? That sounds exactly what I needed

Post primary circular 19/00.

Treppen

Millem wrote: »

I found the leave section in the dept of Education very helpful over the years.
I have always managed with Granny etc when the kids were sick but last year they had the vomiting bug.
It was like a scene from a horror movie! My own VP wanted to mark it as my own sick leave. Leave section told me it was covered under “illness of a family member leave”. It is not the same as force majuere.
I had to get a doctor’s cert for my kids saying they had the vomiting bug and where able to attend school/Montesorri.

It might be of some use to someone.
“Illness of a family member leave of 5 days in a school year in the case of a spouse, child or parent OR 3 days in a school year in the case of a brother, sister, grand-parent, aunt, uncle, or parent-in law.
When applying for this type of leave the teacher must provide certification from a medical practitioner stating that the family member concerned requires constant care and attention for the period of recuperation from the illness.”

Thankfully I have only had to use it once.

That's very helpful millem.

Is that for all secondary (etbs and voluntary)?

From posts on here it seems ETBs are way stickier than voluntary.

Does the 'banking of supervision hours' still go on? I.e. you'll suddenly see loads of sub hours being dished out in may as the school has to 'use them up'.
So a teachers sick leave is covered by S&S, While the dept are simultaneously providing funds for a sub,


allegedly!

Millem

Treppen wrote: »

That's very helpful millem.

Is that for all secondary (etbs and voluntary)?

From posts on here it seems ETBs are way stickier than voluntary.

Does the 'banking of supervision hours' still go on? I.e. you'll suddenly see loads of sub hours being dished out in may as the school has to 'use them up'.
So a teachers sick leave is covered by S&S, While the dept are simultaneously providing funds for a sub,


allegedly!

No I don’t work in an etb. At the start of school year they do a big 2 pages on leave. Tui called it “compassionate leave.

A teacher/lecturer may be paid salary in respect of a period of absence necessitated by the illness or death of a near relative. Absences approved by the school authority arising out of illness of a family member, who is certified by a doctor as requiring constant care, and bereavement involving a family member are subject to the following limits:

Five days in the case of a spouse, child or parent.
Three days in the case of a brother, sister, grandparent, aunt, uncle or parent-in-law. “

I defo think “banking” still Goes on.