ASTI Vote on Croke park hours

MrJones1973

Im sure most of you know about this. Im a bit disappointed in ASTI Nuacht which fails to point out that
A) Increment freeze should really state increment delay will continue ie you get increments 6 months later than normal
b) If they dont pay s and s allowance we dont do s and s!
c) Positive outcomes of LR outlined but none of the negatives-ie no strike power and no ability to resist ongoing change.

What is the feeling in your staff room?

deiseindublin

I read their stuff last night but couldn't see a recommendation?

Icsics

I am absolutely disgusted with that Nuacht. The ballot on CP was meant to be a rubber stamp on pulling them, instead its turning into a rerun of the LR agreement, which we rejected!
The question is who sanctioned the scaremongering in that Nuacht ?, not CEC, who actually voted against motions last week (to publish) regarding the Govt threats.
I'm just hoping members will vote in their droves to end these disasterous hours, but who know?. We could very well be stuck with them forever. The Govt seem to be able to rewrite these 'agreements' & roll one cut into the next. Enough is enough now though:mad:

MrJones1973

To be fair-the Nuacht had to specify consequences of rejecting Croke park hours. I just thought it could have explained it all better. However Im still hopeful it will be rejected. (ie croke park hours over turned) For teachers who should be aware of great social victories in history-we are at times a fatalistic lot. Look at water charges campaign. Im not saying Im for or against them-but foregone conclusions were over turned.

Nothing is set in stone. Forward comrades-forward. Yeah-I know comrades seems a bit ancient but it beats the hell out of making me a stakeholder! A consumer etc

ethical

Re: S & S, the teachers that do it now (rather than taking a pay cut a few years back) are now being told that due to us NOT signing up to Lansdowne that we will NOT get the money that was to be returned to our salary as a payment for doing S & S ,are we within our right then to NOT do S & S from here on in?

What about the people that opted for not doing S & S a few years ago and took the pay cut in lieu,are they going (or were they ever in line for the return of the forsaken money) and if they are in line for it will they now have to do S & S?

2011abc

ethical wrote: »

What about the people that opted for not doing S & S a few years ago and took the pay cut in lieu,are they going (or were they ever in line for the return of the forsaken money) and if they are in line for it will they now have to do S & S?

So some might have to work the hours they paid not to have to work !?

It sounds like comedy but the latest circular claims that if the union dont roll over non union members will be penalised .

Welcome to Ireland 2016 !

(and yes the 'opt out' people were due to be paid for the work they paid not to do -but now may have to work the hours they paid not to work -?Hope that clears things up...)

joebloggs32

2011abc wrote: »

So some might have to work the hours they paid not to have to work !?

It sounds like comedy but the latest circular claims that if the union dont roll over non union members will be penalised .

Welcome to Ireland 2016 !

(and yes the 'opt out' people were due to be paid for the work they paid not to do -but now may have to work the hours they paid not to work -?Hope that clears things up...)

Clear as mud!

ethical

So we can expect some chaos in staffrooms as we will now end up with even more divisions and payscales! Get the teachers fighting with themselves.Enda is one cute hoor!

man_no_plan

Croke park hours wont affect the DES too much.
It'll piss theem off no end though. As far as they are concerned the hoirs are bought and paid for.

If s&s is stopped schools will have to close.

If I wasn't in a union before I'd be getting into one now.

km79

apparently the prospect of a BIGGER giveaway budget than planned for FF and FG to agree to go into govt together ..........and yet we are being threatened with FEMPI and what's worse I heard a few in our staff room saying they voting to KEEP CP hours rather than take a "massive hit"
I despair sometimes !

man_no_plan

km79 wrote: »

apparently the prospect of a BIGGER giveaway budget than planned for FF and FG to agree to go into govt together ..........and yet we are being threatened with FEMPI and what's worse I heard a few in our staff room saying they voting to KEEP CP hours rather than take a "massive hit"
I despair sometimes !

You'd have to draw a picture for some of them.

joebloggs32

I heard yesterday that the ACCS have issued a circular to principals to plan for croke park hours next year. It will get even more complicated in community schools if the ASTI vote against them an the TUI accept, or vice versa

Icsics

ASTI ballot just gone in the post, YES to get rid of CP useless hours😄

amacca

I hope thats the way it goes. Once those are in thats it for good.

Some of my former colleagues seem put so little into informing themselves properly about these votes I often find myself thinking they deserve what they get. Listening to them discuss it you'd think a change in the wind direction would cause them to change their minds! They put countless hours into trivial tasks, you'd think 10 minutes of serious thought about a decision that could potentially change their working conditions for the rest of their lives wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

evolving_doors

amacca wrote: »

I hope thats the way it goes. Once those are in thats it for good.

Some of my former colleagues seem put so little into informing themselves properly about these votes I often find myself thinking they deserve what they get. Listening to them discuss it you'd think a change in the wind direction would cause them to change their minds! They put countless hours into trivial tasks, you'd think 10 minutes of serious thought about a decision that could potentially change their working conditions for the rest of their lives wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Just ask them do they like doing CP... If the answer is yes then walk away.. If answer is no then tell em that they have a vote to get rid of them.... As was part of the original deal. Michael Noonans says the emergency is over so therefore he is saying FEMPI is over. The clue is in the name.

amacca

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Just ask them do they like doing CP... If the answer is yes then walk away.. If answer is no then tell em that they have a vote to get rid of them.... As was part of the original deal. Michael Noonans says the emergency is over so therefore he is saying FEMPI is over. The clue is in the name.

Oh I'll say it

And yet they will probably still vote on the basis they think they'll lose pay if they vote not to do the CP

Irony being they will be the ones I'll hear bitching most about CP (and rightly so up to now) if they end up not being scrapped. And I'll probably tell them again how they shot themselves in the foot and end up being the most unpopular guest at whatever the gathering is, especially when you tot up the financial gains after tax and see it in the light of what's owed anyway if govt has a word/honour etc and probably will have to be conceded eventually given its being done on the basis of fempi when the "emergency" is supposed to be over.

At least my OH has some sense, she's voting to get rid of them anyway.

gammy_knees

When the HRA was passed, two of the many conditions agreed were (i) salaries of those who had been cut by FEMPI would be restored in April 2017 and Jan 2018 and (ii) s & s payments would be made in Sept 16 and Sept 17.
Why is it that these are now being threatened by the DES in the row over CP hours? We fulfilled our part of the HRA and are entitled to get what the deal promised. I think if it comes to pass that the CP hours are voted down and the DES proceeds as threatened, there will be plenty cause for us to go to the gate. They're trying to renege on an agreed deal!

amacca

gammy_knees wrote: »

When the HRA was passed, two of the many conditions agreed were (i) salaries of those who had been cut by FEMPI would be restored in April 2017 and Jan 2018 and (ii) s & s payments would be made in Sept 16 and Sept 17.
Why is it that these are now being threatened by the DES in the row over CP hours? We fulfilled our part of the HRA and are entitled to get what the deal promised. I think if it comes to pass that the CP hours are voted down and the DES proceeds as threatened, there will be plenty cause for us to go to the gate. They're trying to renege on an agreed deal!

Exactly, That should be made much clearer to some of the people I heard "discussing" the vote today.

deiseindublin

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I heard yesterday that the ACCS have issued a circular to principals to plan for croke park hours next year. It will get even more complicated in community schools if the ASTI vote against them an the TUI accept, or vice versa

We've no calendar set for coming back in August yet and I'm wondering if this has any bearing on it.

Wondering if principals are holding out to see if there will be CP days or not?
(or maybe that's just me with my tin hat on again).

TheDriver

gammy_knees wrote: »

When the HRA was passed, two of the many conditions agreed were (i) salaries of those who had been cut by FEMPI would be restored in April 2017 and Jan 2018 and (ii) s & s payments would be made in Sept 16 and Sept 17.
Why is it that these are now being threatened by the DES in the row over CP hours? We fulfilled our part of the HRA and are entitled to get what the deal promised. I think if it comes to pass that the CP hours are voted down and the DES proceeds as threatened, there will be plenty cause for us to go to the gate. They're trying to renege on an agreed deal!

See my thread on writing to your FF TD, its even written into circulars that those 2 things along with increments all come back from July onwards in a certain timeframe. I would make no bones about everyone should be writing to their local TDs so they know the real discontent on the ground before they make another "easy" decision and wonder why they get no votes........

km79

Dept have released what can only be described as a threatening circular
In it there is a lot of "possible " downsides to (as they put it ) "repudiating LRA"
One thing in it is not present as "possible " but as fact
S and S payments will not be made
Now if any sane person signs up to another agreement after conditions of another one not being met AGAIN despite work being delivered tbey need their head examined
I hope that rather than dividing and conquering this circular acts as a rallying call to all in the teachining profession
http://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Information/Payroll-Financial-Information/ASTI-Ballot-FAQ.html

TheDriver

What about all their circulars from Haddington Rd stating the agreements?? This is seriously annoying and frustrating. I will definitely email every TD I can find about this and recommend we do the same, it nearly merits a Dail question?

amacca

Radio stations picking including details like teachers could face sanctions up to and including compulsory redundancy if they don't cooperate with croke park hours

Even though they have cooperated with them to date and agreement to do them is about to run out.

I can't decide if its desperation/arrogance or bully boy fear tactics on behalf of DES or a mixture of the three. Either way I hope it acts to galvanise people to stick together on this one.

coillsaille

All the threats that have been issued I had assumed were possible anyway due to the rejection of the LRA. Just wondering what the story is with the TUI? Will they be voting on the CP hours also?

Alqua

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0505/786381-asti-croke-park-hours/
'Warning for teachers over ballot on Croke Park hours'

The RTE story makes for shocking reading. Lists the dramatic threats. No mention of HRA (of course) or the fact that CP has run its course. Fuming!

amacca

Alqua wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0505/786381-asti-croke-park-hours/
'Warning for teachers over ballot on Croke Park hours'

The RTE story makes for shocking reading. Lists the dramatic threats. No mention of HRA (of course) or the fact that CP has run its course. Fuming!

is it disgusting sensationalist fear tactics or lazy journalism or both.... a fair balanced story with two sides would be nice but i suppose thats just not entertainment, a bit too sophisticated for the times we live in

deiseindublin

I just don't understand why TUI and ASTI aren't making statements saying we were promised X if we did Y and now they're changing the goal posts.

I feel like we have deaf mutes representing us.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

I just don't understand why TUI and ASTI aren't making statements saying we were promised X if we did Y and now they're changing the goal posts.

I feel like we have deaf mutes representing us.

Yes it was a little bit disheartening to hear Kieran Christe interviewed by PKenny... pat set him up with strawman arguments like "oh what about the bad teachers" etc. and he fell for it hook line and sinker.

If people try and draw you on the 'holidays/bad teachers' just ask what this debate is about?

Quite simply, are we in an emergency (FEMPI) or not... Michael Noonan says we are not.. so there!!

He stated so in February.. noonan-fg-to-abolish-usc-because-emergency-is-over-1.2525659

Alqua

I also feel this thread should be printed out and put up in every staffroom as compulsory reading..

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

Alqua wrote: »

I also feel this thread should be printed out and put up in every staffroom as compulsory reading..

Take a typical school staff of 50..How many of those are active union members who passionately oppose CPH?

Be honest-You'd be doing well to find 10.

Sure,the remaining 40 will mutter their disapproval and shake their heads ruefully for appearances sake,but ultimately they're just not that put out by it.

We all know how this will play out:

There'll be a turn out of about 33%
The hardcore will celebrate a victory
The government/media will ramp up bully boy tactics to force a 2nd ballot.
The silent majority (the 40) will be frightened into voting for CPH to remain.

ethical

While I fully agree with 'The Driver' and the wonderful letter we should all send to our local politician should we not also compose a letter and send it to our respective Unions to get up off their fat arses and represent us.There is no reason at all to vote in the upcoming ballotts if our Unions are not going to stand behind our decisions.Bad enough that we agreed and fulfilled the various agreements on the promise that some of the FEMPI acts would be withdrawn........and now we find that they will not be withdrawn afterall! Do we live in a Banana Republic or what? We would be better off working for Kim in North Korea,at least we would get what he promised us!!!!

gaiscioch

Listening to the radio today was listening to the mother of all propaganda campaigns waged by senior civil servants utilising journalists they've helped by leaking stories to them.

It was astounding but unsurprising how supple, pliant and partisan the media was to the DoES's spin. No interrogation of said claims. Our "free press" indeed. As I said before if they're this agenda-driven and bought by the government's spin machine on this issue that we know about, be afraid at the thought that everything we read or hear about other sectors in society is just as distorted and malicious.

TheDriver

I would like to ask Sean O Foughlu about the amount of money one would get if you vote yes because we were also promised all these things once HRA was adhered to? Will there be another agreement hoisted upon us after it with more bully boy tactics? Who gave the 1st sec the authority to deal with industrial relations publications on official government websites?

deiseindublin

I'd also like to ask him to justify his €180k salary when he's happy for new entrants to get a tiny fraction of that!

trihead

Here is the 'press release' that was put up on the education.ie site and what they were referring to this morning on the radio... it is scare tactics and a PR game but doesn't read well for those staff who don't usually vote in ballots or ill informed (which there are a quite a number)... who could read this and decide sure we'll keep the auld Croke park hours.

http://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Information/Payroll-Financial-Information/ASTI-Ballot-FAQ.html

No protection against compulsory redundancy (particularly in situations of school closure or teacher surplus) This could be a huge issue for some teachers...

ethical

Perhaps there are some teachers that would welcome redundancy! Anyone with the 'end' in sight just might be willing to go if conditions were suitable.
Would it not benefit the Dept.to pension them off and employ younger teachers in their place? Two for the price of one yellow pack offer,sadly! Money is all the Dept is interested in......not spending money that is.

Benicetomonty

ASTI SC going to protest outside Dept of Education at 3pm today.

https://t.co/R6O6YmdhB3

Icsics

We should all be protesting! The DES had disgraced itself & we need to fight back & not let these threats go unchallenged. Did the Gardai face the same threats over the CP hrs? Absolutely not, but yet again we are fair game.

Benicetomonty

And Union president's response to threats made. Sent to Irish Independent 5 days ago and remains unpublished.

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/presidents-response-to-department-remarks/

km79

At least the union is responding this time
Good to see
And may help sway some of the members currently 50:50 in which way to vote

gaiscioch

ethical wrote: »

Perhaps there are some teachers that would welcome redundancy! Anyone with the 'end' in sight just might be willing to go if conditions were suitable.
Would it not benefit the Dept.to pension them off and employ younger teachers in their place? Two for the price of one yellow pack offer,sadly! Money is all the Dept is interested in......not spending money that is.

Precisely. In addition to potential retirees, I know of at least one teacher who would prefer to have been made redundant than redeployed because her subject is in huge demand and she'd have little difficulty getting a new job. By not being made redundant she lost a tax-free redundancy payment (which a worker is entitled to once every 10 years) and ended up in a school she wasn't keen on. Contrary to the "redeployment is done to help the teachers" line, redeployment is in fact good for some people, but not for others. The point is teachers do not have the choice between both and that's entirely because it doesn't suit the Department to give that choice.

Indeed, I'll go one step further and say without hesitation that a number of older teachers I know in a school which closed down were given the option of redeployment to astonishingly bad schools or no job. They retired early rather accept that redeployment, while younger people in the same school got better schools. The cynics at the time all remarked that the Department's Redeployment section wanted to get rid of those more expensive teachers asap. Officially, of course, it was something like "it's just the luck of the draw". Had they been made redundant rather than treated in such a sly manner, they would have been much better off financially.

TheDriver

There is only one thing that sways me: We were promised it all in various circulars such as cl0015/2014 and cl0036/2013, maybe we should ask Sean O Foghlu to talk to Padraig Maloney or Matthew Ryan who all signed circulars promising things from June 2016. I wonder will there be a big political backlash once it gains some ground, very dangerous territory for a general sec to be taking

trihead

ethical wrote: »

Perhaps there are some teachers that would welcome redundancy! Anyone with the 'end' in sight just might be willing to go if conditions were suitable.
Would it not benefit the Dept.to pension them off and employ younger teachers in their place? Two for the price of one yellow pack offer,sadly! Money is all the Dept is interested in......not spending money that is.

Protection against compulsory redundancyNo protection against compulsory redundancy (particularly in situations of school closure or teacher surplus) and only statutory payments for teachers who are made redundant

Sorry I didn't quote the full section above - there wouldn't be payoffs as such.

Ps I am aware it's a scare tactic but still it's a brass move by the department!

TheDriver

trihead wrote: »

Ps I am aware it's a scare tactic but still it's a brass move by the department!

Its a somewhat stupid move because no one likes bullying tactics. I was initially scared but then realised that we have been here before looking at the dangling carrot.

MrJones1973

The redundancies argument will be wheeled out every single time. Is anybody surprised? Can you imagine them actually carrying this out? I cant. We need more teachers not less. Ed byrne did a good defense this morning, Stumbles a bit at start but finds his feet eventually
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F20983042%5F48%5F06%2D05%2D2016%5F

Predict outcome- I predict Croke park hours gone by 60-40 margin

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The redundancies argument will be wheeled out every single time. Is anybody surprised? Can you imagine them actually carrying this out? I cant. We need more teachers not less. Ed byrne did a good defense this morning, Stumbles a bit at start but finds his feet eventually
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F20983042%5F48%5F06%2D05%2D2016%5F

Predict outcome- I predict Croke park hours gone by 60-40 margin

that was my prediction to a colleague today too
hopefully we are correct
one extra days summer holiday for a start anyway if nothing else!

feardeas

In my opinion the ASTI should be in talks to see if these hours could be used in a more creative and productive way and then move to a ballot.

I wouldn't receive an increase for six years as I'm just on one of these that lasts for three years. Also lose all the rest and would be very concerned at the loss of the CID after two years for younger colleagues. I have to say that I am at a loss as to the reasoning behind this constant confrontation the union seem hell bent on.

evolving_doors

Anyone hear about new entrants pay being restored for firefighters?

Edit: Tis true... http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/salary-cuts-for-recent-public-service-entrants-to-be-reversed-1.2633801

Jamfa

Benicetomonty wrote: »

ASTI SC going to protest outside Dept of Education at 3pm today.

https://t.co/R6O6YmdhB3

Did they help Jan clear her desk? Has the reality that the DES call the shots and not Ruairi or Jan or the new Minister Regina!!!

2011abc

Explains how the anti teacher campaign in media had such momentum without a government in place ...Gen Sec of DOE a disgrace

gaiscioch

I wish the ASTI leaders would specifically and unequivocally challenge the claims of the DoES, as reported on RTÉ right here yesterday.

Just to remind any stragglers who forget what was signed up to by teachers in HRA. From the HRA in May 2013, Key points of the Haddington Road Agreement, I quote:

1. Pay Restoration: "Pay for those earning between 65k and 100k will be restored in full by 1 January 2018. Restoration will occur in two equal phases on 1 April 2017 and on 1 January 2018."

2. Supervision and Substitution: "In recognition of the loss of the S&S pensionable allowance, a gross payment of €1592 will be applied to the incremental scale for teachers.This will be applied in two equal moieties; €796 in the school year 2016/17 and €796 in the school year 2017/18."

3. Increments: "Those earning €65k-100k will receive the next increment on their normal incremental date and each of the following 2 increments will be paid at 18 month intervals (i.e. two 6 month delays). Subsequent increments [i.e. 36 months after May 2013, i.e. from June 2016) will be paid at 12 month intervals."

4. Croke Park hours: "The deal will run for three years, from July 2013 to June 2016. The current Croke Park Agreement was due to expire in June 2014, at the end of a four year term."

So, not once but twice teachers have kept their side of what we were always told was a short-term agreement necessitated by emergency legislation. It expires next month, June 2016. That's it. Over. Finito. Resist the bullying and threats. Hold the ground. This is entirely about conditions of employment and the DoES trying to break our working culture, despite our teaching far more hours than the OECD average (915 hours at primary & 735 hours at secondary with the OECD average of 772 hours and 643 hours respectively), and our schools rating far higher in the 2015 PISA rankings than the English school system the Department of Education is trying to emulate with its "reform". Not a single journalist in the Irish media has the character to question this whole "reform" mantra from Ó Foghlú and his obscenely overpaid, ginormously pensioned colleagues in the upper ranks of the Department of Education who are pushing this (a special hello to this 2011 architect of our cutbacks). All those DoES "sources" for articles in their newspaper they'd suddenly stop getting if journalists started questioning the DoES.

Money comes and goes but to reiterate what so many of us in this forum have now said: conditions are very, very, very hard to regain once they're lost. They can well throw a few shillings (after tax) in to beguile the young, single teachers who have plenty of free time now and no eye for their quality of life when they're going around like a blue-arsed fly with a slew of kids while worked to the bone with far longer school days filled by administrative ráiméis, a shed load of pointless paper for everything, and insipid after-school meetings to crush any free-spirited fiery inspiring teachers and reduce them to defeated English-style, yellow-pack, pen-pushing, form-filling, institutionalised, classroom administrators.