Proof the CO2 motor tax is f-ed up

polan

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/volkswagen/polo/used-2009-volkswagen-polo-comfort-dublin-fpa-201114588405994130

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/bmw/5-series/used-2008-bmw-5-series-530-d-e60-mayo-fpa-201605240816902

These two cost exactly the same to tax.

One is an 80 horsepower 1.4 Petrol, the other is a 235hp 3 litre diesel.

Atlantic Dawn

I don't get the issue, both first owners new the rates when they bought their cars, where's the problem?

R.O.R

STOP THE PRESS!!!!!!

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!!!!!

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Wait a second OP. Are you telling me that the tax system in Ireland is backward? Next you'll be telling me VRT is an illegal tax!!

polan

It is!

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't get the issue, both first owners new the rates when they bought their cars, where's the problem?

Which one of these two:

- Will do bigger mileage and therefore put more wear on the roads
- Is heavier and therefore puts more wear on the roads

Hint: It's got a diesel engine!

CiniO

Simple.
Both cars emit the same amount of CO2*.
So they have to be taxed the same.

* Obviously provided, they are both driven as economical as possible to match manufacturers fuel economy results, and both do the same mileage and the same kind of driving (urban, suburban).

The One Doctor

Simply put, the government thinks that diesel is less polluting than petrol, wrongly of course. We have an ingrained hatred of petrol engines in Ireland. We prefer the tractor roar of the diesel.

The facts are that diesel is between 400% and 1000% more polluting than diesel when you compare the really horrible pollutants (NOX and CO). These are the pollutants that damage the lining of children's lungs.

Apparently Irish diesel drivers enjoy damaging children's internal organs to save a few hundred euro a year.

Apart from the lung damage, very few diesel owners will recoup the extra cost of buying a diesel car from the fuel savings. Financially, most owners are better off buying a petrol.

Atlantic Dawn

polan wrote: »

It is!



Which one of these two:

- Will do bigger mileage and therefore put more wear on the roads
- Is heavier and therefore puts more wear on the roads

Hint: It's got a diesel engine!

How do you know it will be more mileage? What about taxis paying less than €100, 30 ton loaded trucks paying a max of €900 for commercially using the road and some of them using it 24 hours a day in shifts?

Cookiemunster

A Polo has a tax rate of €570 a year??? Cause that's what the ad for the BMW says. Sounds a bit pricy for a Polo and there's no tax rate given in the ad for the Polo. Neither ad gived the CO2 emissions either.
OP, where are you getting your figures from?

Voodoomelon

I'm more baffled by the price. €16,500 for a 133,000 mile, 8 year old 530D?

colm_mcm

The polo is the 90s 1.4 engine with a slushbox. No surprises there.
Not exactly a typical post 08 car. TSI engines and DSG gearboxes have replaced the tech in that car.

Donnelly117

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I'm more baffled by the price. €16,500 for a 133,000 mile, 8 year old 530D?

Shocking alright, a 535d wouldn't make that kinda money let alone a 530d!

As for the tax issue, its hardly conclusive evidence. The tax system isn't perfect but isn't going to change any time soon. If you don't wanna pay high tax buy a post 08 car or one with a small engine...simples

polan

Cookiemunster wrote: »

A Polo has a tax rate of €570 a year??? Cause that's what the ad for the BMW says. Sounds a bit pricy for a Polo and there's no tax rate given in the ad for the Polo. Neither ad gived the CO2 emissions either.
OP, where are you getting your figures from?

Tax disc in the ad.

Atlantic Dawn

The One Doctor wrote: »

The facts are that diesel is between 400% and 1000% more polluting than diesel when you compare the really horrible pollutants (NOX and CO). These are the pollutants that damage the lining of children's lungs.

Apparently Irish diesel drivers enjoy damaging children's internal organs to save a few hundred euro a year.

The funniest is seeing these clowns in diesel people carriers bringing their kids to school in these cars unaware their kids are far more exposed to these dangerous emissions inside the car than outside if they were walking.

colm_mcm

Try buying a petrol MPV though, what ya gonna do!


What emissions are you picking up in the car?

Atlantic Dawn

colm_mcm wrote: »

Try buying a petrol MPV though, what ya gonna do!


What emissions are you picking up in the car?

I suppose, then again Prius 7 seater might be an option.

The emissions from the car in front of them, their fellow people car driver.

Del2005

polan wrote: »

It is!



Which one of these two:

- Will do bigger mileage and therefore put more wear on the roads
- Is heavier and therefore puts more wear on the roads

Hint: It's got a diesel engine!

What has motor tax got to do with roads? Apart from being a legal requirement to use the road.

Kenny Logins

colm_mcm wrote: »

Try buying a petrol MPV though, what ya gonna do!


What emissions are you picking up in the car?

Dispatches tested which mode of transport had the greatest level of exposure to the dangerous pollutant, nitrogen dioxide. We took four commuters - a driver, bus passenger, pedestrian and cyclist and measured the nitrogen dioxide on their way to work. This non-scientific test proved that surprisingly, the driver was exposed to the highest levels of this pollutant. The annual average safe limit of nitrogen dioxide is 40 microgrammes per cubic meter. Despite it being a low pollution day in Leeds, the car driver was exposed to 37mg, dangerously close to the safe limit, the bus user experienced 30mg while the walker was only exposed to 23mg and the cyclist a much healthier 14mg.

http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/the-great-car-con-channel-4-dispatches

As they said though - a non-scientific test.

Gumbo

Donnelly117 wrote: »

Shocking alright, a 535d wouldn't make that kinda money let alone a 530d!

As for the tax issue, its hardly conclusive evidence. The tax system isn't perfect but isn't going to change any time soon. If you don't wanna pay high tax but a post 08 car or one with a small engine...simples

I beg to differ!
I sold my 2007 535d LCI for 15k and that was on the old tax system. There are so few 535d's on the market, when an 08 one comes up its snapped up straight away!

pablo128

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The funniest is seeing these clowns in diesel people carriers bringing their kids to school in these cars unaware their kids are far more exposed to these dangerous emissions inside the car than outside if they were walking.

How is that? Doesn't the exhaust take the fumes away from the car? Pollen filters etc?

Del2005

pablo128 wrote: »

How is that? Doesn't the exhaust take the fumes away from the car? Pollen filters etc?

Pollen is huge compared to toxic gases. If travelling at high speed your gases don't get into your car, school runs are rarely done at high speed, but you'll still get the noxious gases from the oil burner in front of you.

bear1

Del2005 wrote: »

Pollen is huge compared to toxic gases. If travelling at high speed your gases don't get into your car, school runs are rarely done at high speed, but you'll still get the noxious gases from the oil burner in front of you.

Not if you have the recirc option always on.

Del2005

bear1 wrote: »

Not if you have the recirc option always on.

How many people are driving airtight vehicles?

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

The Green Party are chiefly responsible for me not buying an E46 M3. I don't bother to recycle my rubbish anymore, to make a petty point.

bear1

Del2005 wrote: »

How many people are driving airtight vehicles?

Moi tis a bastard if you fart though.

grogi

colm_mcm wrote: »

Try buying a petrol MPV though, what ya gonna do!

And that's what's massively messed up...

Newish petrols emit as little CO2 as the diesels. Take a new C4GP 1.6THP 163PS: it emits 130g/km...

That's €80 of tax difference, I'd gladly pay that to get in the <9.0sec territory in it... Why it is not sold here, even as a special order?

SBPhoto

The One Doctor wrote: »

Simply put, the government thinks that diesel is less polluting than petrol, wrongly of course. We have an ingrained hatred of petrol engines in Ireland. We prefer the tractor roar of the diesel.

The facts are that diesel is between 400% and 1000% more polluting than diesel when you compare the really horrible pollutants (NOX and CO). These are the pollutants that damage the lining of children's lungs.

Apparently Irish diesel drivers enjoy damaging children's internal organs to save a few hundred euro a year.

Apart from the lung damage, very few diesel owners will recoup the extra cost of buying a diesel car from the fuel savings. Financially, most owners are better off buying a petrol.

What a a sensational view.

pablo128

SBPhoto wrote: »

What a a sensational view.

I know. You would think all of the livestock grazing in fields alongside our motorways would be long dead with the amount of heavy articulated trucks passing them day and night. Or at the very least have toxic meat or milk.

colm_mcm

not to mention all the co2 and other gasses they're emitting themselves

grogi

colm_mcm wrote: »

not to mention all the co2 and other gasses they're emitting themselves

Reduction of meat consumption is a different story...

Jesus.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I don't get the issue, both first owners new the rates when they bought their cars, where's the problem?

Bizarre statement

millington

Sounds like a pretty convincing argument to buy the 530d to me

9935452

polan wrote: »

It is!



Which one of these two:

- Will do bigger mileage and therefore put more wear on the roads
- Is heavier and therefore puts more wear on the roads

Hint: It's got a diesel engine!

As someone else says why does the BMW do bigger mileage?
The car might be heavier but it is running on bigger diameter wider tyres than the smaller car and as a result would probably have a similar ground pressure to the smaller car so most likely would be putting an equal amount of wear on the roads as each other.

When you think about it , only a fraction of motor tax goes to the maintenance of the roads. Plus if the BMW does higher mileage it will be paying tax on the fuel it burns so this coud be use to maintain the roads.

I think its oddly funny that people are now protesting the 08 diesel cheap motor tax thing.
Sure the cars are 8 years old at this stage .
And if they are any way successful in their bid , all the government will do is raise the 08 tax rates . The older rates wont drop.
we will just end up paying more in tax not less

ShaunieVW

I like it the way it is. What do people want? All cars to be based off co2? Any pre 08 car that has any power at all will be in a very high band and be more expensive to tax than they are under the old scheme. To tax a mk5 GTI under the new system it'll be 1200, given the emissions figure I got for them.

EDIT: 2350 for an e39 530i!

Donnelly117

ShaunieVW wrote: »

I like it the way it is. What do people want? All cars to be based off co2? Any pre 08 car that has any power at all will be in a very high band and be more expensive to tax than they are under the old scheme. To tax a mk5 GTI under the new system it'll be 1200, given the emissions figure I got for them.

EDIT: 2350 for an e39 530i!

Where are you going to find a 2008 e39?

The RX8 went up to max tax after 2008 too which killed any chance of people wanting one. Youd run a 911 cheaper :rolleyes:

ShaunieVW

Donnelly117 wrote: »

Where are you going to find a 2008 e39?

The RX8 went up to max tax after 2008 too which killed any chance of people wanting one. Youd run a 911 cheaper :rolleyes:

Everyone with pre 08 cars want the co2 tax rates hence e39 being there. 2350 for a 13 year old car feck that!

zilog_jones

ShaunieVW wrote: »

I like it the way it is. What do people want? All cars to be based off co2?

If they want to do something that actually has a tangible effect on the environment, they should tax based on NOx and particulates.

bear1

ShaunieVW wrote: »

Everyone with pre 08 cars want the co2 tax rates hence e39 being there. 2350 for a 13 year old car feck that!

Not everyone pre 08 wants to have cars on co2. There are certain cars which are cheaper to tax on the cc rate.

rocky

05 530i, 1494 on cc, would be 1200 on co2 (224g/km)

Sam Russell

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

How do you know it will be more mileage? What about taxis paying less than €100, 30 ton loaded trucks paying a max of €900 for commercially using the road and some of them using it 24 hours a day in shifts?

The Polo has done 35,000 and BMW has done 135,000. I think that says which has done most miles.

shietpilot

I don't know what people are really crying about. The CO2 rates are very good but it's just that the top end prices are waaaay overpriced. CO2 taxation is used in Germany for example but they would pay what we pay for a 1.8 diesel for a 3.0 V6 petrol for example.

The CC rate was crap because engine size isn't really a factor in emission output or performance when you consider turbos/superchargers and also more advanced emission control systems on newer cars.

All the Irish government need to do is lower the tax rates like everywhere else and stop ripping the motorist off!

Sam Russell

9935452 wrote: »

As someone else says why does the BMW do bigger mileage?
The car might be heavier but it is running on bigger diameter wider tyres than the smaller car and as a result would probably have a similar ground pressure to the smaller car so most likely would be putting an equal amount of wear on the roads as each other.

When you think about it , only a fraction of motor tax goes to the maintenance of the roads. Plus if the BMW does higher mileage it will be paying tax on the fuel it burns so this coud be use to maintain the roads.

I think its oddly funny that people are now protesting the 08 diesel cheap motor tax thing.
Sure the cars are 8 years old at this stage .
And if they are any way successful in their bid , all the government will do is raise the 08 tax rates . The older rates wont drop.
we will just end up paying more in tax not less

A two tonne car does more damage and causes more wear than a one tonne car. The bigger car also tends to do higher mileage. In this case 135,000 compared to 35,000.

bear1

rocky wrote: »

05 530i, 1494 on cc, would be 1200 on co2 (224g/km)

02 Jaguar XJ8 3.2 V8 1809e on CC and 2350e on co2 (289g/km)
Don't see the point of this post tbh.

PLUG71

This tax system is a complete rip off and anyone that cant see that must be driving a small car or a post 08!

grogi

PLUG71 wrote: »

This tax system is a complete rip off and anyone that cant see that must be driving a small car or a post 08!

Taxes in general are ripoff, aren't they?

Someone has to pay for the 12.5% corporate rate...

millington

bear1 wrote: »

02 Jaguar XJ8 3.2 V8 1809e on CC and 2350e on co2 (289g/km)
Don't see the point of this post tbh.

2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X

€710 on cc
€2350 on co2 :eek:

PLUG71

There is a guy were i work with a 2012 Dodge Charger that he brought over from the states. The tax is €2500!! :eek:

Donnelly117

millington wrote: »

2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X

€710 on cc
€2350 on co2 :eek:

RX8's were worse than that...

Is there even an Evo X in the country?

Silvera

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly wrote: »

The Green Party are chiefly responsible for me not buying an E46 M3. I don't bother to recycle my rubbish anymore, to make a petty point.

Great thinking ...petty is right - sure just mess up the planet instead by dumping '100-years-to-break-down' plastics :rolleyes:

(I agree that the Greens messed up the road tax system btw)

duffman3833

If they maxed both tax groups to say 800 it would save a lot of cars getting neglected and the older cars wont cost more to tax than its worth

grogi

duffman3833 wrote: »

If they maxed both tax groups to say 800 it would save a lot of cars getting neglected and the older cars wont cost more to tax than its worth

That would be a bad system. The tax should discourage producing nonsense.

What would work better IMHO is a system when the MotorTax would decrease with the age of the vehicle and for 10 year old you'd pay like 30% of what the tax was on the new (as an example).

There still would be incentive to put efficient cars on the roads, but old cars would not get scraped just because they are old and tax is too big.