The future of CHademo

BoatMad

while this is from 2013, its an interesting comment

http://www.plugincars.com/why-chademo-death-row-europe-128001.html

September1

I think new purchasers should be warned of this situation, as currently they are buying into old standard.

KCross

Should we care? Seems more like an issue for the manufacturers than the owners?

As you pointed out, the article is from 2013 and CCS is still patchy across this country. Does that mean that the forecasted doomsday for Chademo was premature?

Worst case scenario CCS starts to take hold and Chademo goes into decline over the next 5-10 years.... so what?
I dont think that means that Chademo users are all of a sudden going to find themselves with cars that they cannot charge at the rapids.

@BoatMad: You seem to know a thing or two about chargers and EVSE's etc. Is it technically possible to have an adaptor that would allow you to connect a CCS charger to a Chademo connection which would be an "easy" transition over to CCS if Chademo does in fact die in time.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Should we care? Seems more like an issue for the manufacturers than the owners?

As you pointed out, the article is from 2013 and CCS is still patchy across this country. Does that mean that the forecasted doomsday for Chademo was premature?

Worst case scenario CCS starts to take hold and Chademo goes into decline over the next 5-10 years.... so what?
I dont think that means that Chademo users are all of a sudden going to find themselves with cars that they cannot charge at the rapids.

@BoatMad: You seem to know a thing or two about chargers and EVSE's etc. Is it technically possible to have an adaptor that would allow you to connect a CCS charger to a Chademo connection which would be an "easy" transition over to CCS if Chademo does in fact die in time.

personally CCS is a very poor " compromise " system , to add a very simple DC option to a AC plug. The signalling protocol is far inferior ( in that its very complex) to Chademo ( and others) that use CAN bus in the connector to communicate between charger and battery management systems

but yes , Chademo to CCS is entirely possible, the other way round is far more complex. edit , well in reality both systems are complex to convert. Its actually easier to build three way DC fast chargers then convert from on etc the other .

the big mistake in my view is until recently CHademo was a private protocol. The Japanese dont do " open" solutions well.

ChaDeMo II is already in the works and can support I think up to 150 Kw.

CCS was/is unnecessary .

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

ChaDeMo II is already in the works and can support I think up to 150 Kw.

CCS was/is unnecessary .

yes but CCS is the accepted DC standard in Europe by the Brussels mob, Chademo is not , and no other car other then nissan is using it ,. even Tesla is going CCS

thats not good and suggest Chademo is going to fail in Europw

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

ChaDeMo II is already in the works and can support I think up to 150 Kw.

CCS was/is unnecessary .

yes but CCS is the accepted DC standard in Europe by the Brussels mob, Chademo is not , and no other car other then nissan is using it ,. even Tesla is going CCS

thats not good and suggest Chademo is going to fail in Europw

It was a very poor decision. ChaDeMo works. But the E.U and U.S wanted to make their own standard.

Rafal

BoatMad wrote: »

yes but CCS is the accepted DC standard in Europe by the Brussels mob, Chademo is not , and no other car other then nissan is using it ,. even Tesla is going CCS

thats not good and suggest Chademo is going to fail in Europw

During my Tesla test drive I was told that it uses Chademo, and I was shown the Chademo adapter. Same in Switzerland, according to a driver who I met, but I am not sure about the rest of Europe.

In any case, I expect all future new rapid chargers in Ireland, UK, and in Europe to still include Chademo, perhaps for another 8-10 years, because it would be counterproductive to exclude the largest share of the market from being able to use them. At the same time, I expect those chargers to include CCS in addition to, but not instead of Chademo.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

personally CCS is a very poor " compromise " system , to add a very simple DC option to a AC plug. The signalling protocol is far inferior ( in that its very complex) to Chademo ( and others) that use CAN bus in the connector to communicate between charger and battery management systems

I strongly disagree.

Homeplug GreenPhy (which CCS uses for signalling) is fairly simple from my perspective at least. It's basically a subset of HomePlug AV. PLC makes sense in the long term as well because it can be used for home automation, vehicle to grid communication for demand response etc. GreenPhy is even forward compatible with homeplug AV.
CAN bus is being phased out in the vehicle favor of IP based solutions anyway over the next few years.
CCS can handle a much wider array of charging scenarios in one plug, from multi-phase AC to 170kW DC (soon to be 350kW).
Chademo's connector is both bulky and fragile. causing reliability issues and taking up a ton of space in the vehicle.

BoatMad wrote: »

but yes , Chademo to CCS is entirely possible, the other way round is far more complex. edit , well in reality both systems are complex to convert. Its actually easier to build three way DC fast chargers then convert from on etc the other .

Most of the rapids I've seen installed in germany these days are either Type 2 / CCS or CCS only. CCS only rapids are between €3-5k cheaper than the multi-standard. Tesla has also installed CCS at a lot of their supercharger locations due to requirements from german law.

Chademo (rapid) to CCS (vehicle) is largely a pain because you'd need to independently power your adapter.

BoatMad wrote: »

the big mistake in my view is until recently CHademo was a private protocol. The Japanese dont do " open" solutions well.

Take it from someone who has owned vehicles with both connectors. I'd pick CCS over Chademo every single time. It's physically easier to use, the plugs/sockets are more durable, all charging is done it the one place (when I loan my leaf to someone they need a walkthrough on rapid charging, with the i3 they figure it out very easily) and then there's cheap 22kW CCS rapids for around €4k that I can put in the house.

September1

I'm impressed, it seems that CCS is a big improvement and it makes sense to shift to this standard. I hope future LEAFs and Outlanders will support it.

cros13

Rafal wrote: »

During my Tesla test drive I was told that it uses Chademo, and I was shown the Chademo adapter. Same in Switzerland, according to a driver who I met, but I am not sure about the rest of Europe.

In any case, I expect all future new rapid chargers in Ireland, UK, and in Europe to still include Chademo, perhaps for another 8-10 years, because it would be counterproductive to exclude the largest share of the market from being able to use them. At the same time, I expect those chargers to include CCS in addition to, but not instead of Chademo.

Tesla sell a Chademo adapter. However they have also just joined the CCS forum as a "platinum" member or whatever. I'd expect the Model 3 to come CCS equipped in europe and retrofitting of existing superchargers and vehicles.

2018 is the next review on a european level. I'd expect all vehicles to be required to use CCS from then on.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Tesla sell a Chademo adapter. However they have also just joined the CCS forum as a "platinum" member or whatever. I'd expect the Model 3 to come CCS equipped in europe and retrofitting of existing superchargers and vehicles.

2018 is the next review on a european level. I'd expect all vehicles to be required to use CCS from then on.

The lack of CCS in large parts of the country will need to be resolved first though. There arent enough Chademo not to mind CCS so I dont think 2018 is going to change much.

The numbers in Ireland are so small nothing will change in the next few years.... EU Law or not.

BoatMad

This isn't the place for a discussion on the merits of can bus signalling over poweline

As for home automation. The standards are in an absolute mess. So any connection with HA is as much a disadvantage as it might be an advantage

Can bus is simpler to implement

The key point is that chademo is basically finished in Europe and that leaves existing leaf owners in s quandary as their cars age ( and especially if they want to go abroad )

Note that I agree the connector for ccs is better. The chademo is too big awkward and heavy

Note there is no need to power any ccs to chademo adapter separately. The power can be derived from the supply ( easy ccs to chademo more complex the other way round )

This (isn't) ChaDeMo II but a new plug. So the argument that CCS plug is better doesn't hold up for much longer. I think the updated ChaDeMo plug is actually better than CCS.

Whatever standard is being pushed in Germany is not because it's better but because it supports their home Auto industry.

"Why install chargers suitable for Japanese cars ? we'll just install CCS and people have no choice but to buy German or American."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qbRG8n9_IY

cros13

The south korean brands are going CCS too. Both Kia and Hyundai's next EVs will be CCS.

Nissan is the sole holdout. My information is that the European Mk2 Leaf will go CCS. So the 30kWh Leaf could be the last Chademo vehicle sold in europe.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

The south korean brands are going CCS too. Both Kia and Hyundai's next EVs will be CCS.

Nissan is the sole holdout. My information is that the European Mk2 Leaf will go CCS. So the 30kWh Leaf could be the last Chademo vehicle sold in europe.

I would concur. Chademo is dead in Europe as a way forward. IT may also impact currnt leaf resale value too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qbRG8n9_IY

Rafal

cros13 wrote: »

Nissan is the sole holdout. My information is that the European Mk2 Leaf will go CCS. So the 30kWh Leaf could be the last Chademo vehicle sold in europe.

Would Nissan willingly make their market-leading next Leaf incompatible with ca 70% of the installed chargers in Europe? That would also mean giving up a serious commercial advantage they have built over the years by being the first and the original investors. Unless they have plans to upgrade all their Chademo chargers into CCS, and so to roll out the carpet for the German brands at no cost to them.

I suppose anything is possible. What is your source of the information about Leaf Mk 2 abandoning Chademo, if you don't mind sharing?

cros13

Rafal wrote: »

incompatible with ca 70% of the installed chargers in Europe?

CCS is now more than 80% of the install base of Chademo in europe. And growing quicker. Large infrastructures like Germany's new rapid charging network are effectively CCS only. I went to Berlin last summer on CCS rapids... a journey that at least at the time wasn't possible for a chademo vehicle. Now of the 500 new rapid chargers in germany being built before the end of June, 300 are CCS/AC only and 200 are multistandard including chademo.

The Leaf is the best selling EV in Ireland in large part because of the infrastructure. The Leaf is not remotely as dominant outside Ireland and the UK.

Rafal wrote: »

What is your source of the information about Leaf Mk 2 abandoning Chademo, if you don't mind sharing?

An engineer who works for Nissan R&D. But it also a fairly obvious move. Nissan is the only serious member of the Chademo association. Mitsubishi won't have another BEV out until 2018, with the koreans going CCS in europe the writing is on the wall. New EU regulations are due to harmonise around one standard in 2018... maybe only one year into the mk2 Leaf's life. Also CCS wasn't really launched proper until less than three years ago. Chademo was the only option for the gen 1 Leaf because CCS didn't exist yet.

BoatMad

I would agree with cros13, its likely CCS will be made mandatory by the EU by 2018 , ANyway its the right thing to force a single standard. like betamax and VHS, its not about who was technically better ( which was clearly betamax), its was the one that got multi vendor support that won the day

The thing is will Nissian offer a pay for conversion to CCS for existing leafs in the future, its has been speculated on elsewhere

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

The thing is will Nissian offer a pay for conversion to CCS for existing leafs in the future, its has been speculated on elsewhere

Any idea what sort of money would that cost?

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

Any idea what sort of money would that cost?

No idea. But the replacement cost of the unit that contains the chademo connector and J1772 on a Leaf costs about €2k as a part. Plus you'd need a new computer to talk to the CCS rapid.

KCross

Lets say Chademo is dead from 2018 onwards and new LEAF's come with CCS.... how is that going to play out for the ESB network.

The majority of their users, who they hope to get revenue from, are Chademo.
They have completed their charger rollout and wont be investing anything more until EV uptake increases significantly, which we know isnt going to happen over the next 3-5 years unless a government drastically change direction... unlikely with the hodge podge government we have now.

There might be a few exceptions where ESB replace old chargers but by and large the network we have today is the network you will have for the foreseeable future(5 years maybe?) which wont be any good for CCS users.

I think the commercial reality in this country will be an overriding factor here long after any EU decisions are made in 2018. i.e. Chademo and CCS will have to live side by side for many years to come.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Lets say Chademo is dead from 2018 onwards and new LEAF's come with CCS.... how is that going to play out for the ESB network.

The majority of their users, who they hope to get revenue from, are Chademo.
They have completed their charger rollout and wont be investing anything more until EV uptake increases significantly, which we know isnt going to happen over the next 3-5 years unless a government drastically change direction... unlikely with the hodge podge government we have now.

There might be a few exceptions where ESB replace old chargers but by and large the network we have today is the network you will have for the foreseeable future(5 years maybe?) which wont be any good for CCS users.

I think the commercial reality in this country will be an overriding factor here long after any EU decisions are made in 2018. i.e. Chademo and CCS will have to live side by side for many years to come.

I believe most of the older Chademo only chargers will be swopped out. The first to go are ones that have no RFID capability.

The big issue is definitely the issue of " what next "

It would be an appalling vista to have no further expansion , even if EVs grow at a 300 plus organic growth per year , that would double the population and put the infrastructure under tremendous strain and then lead to a drop off in EV adoption.

Nor is commercialisation in the near future any solution , the current user base is way too small and you will have a drop in usage as users take up home charging , which will further depress usage charges.


The key know is to get active government involvement, to both subsidise the charger costs , resulting in free usage for a stated period and to provide investment to fund the expansion the network as the number of EVs grow.

Commercialisation can then be introduced gradually as the network is shown to mission critical and fit for purpose

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I believe most of the older Chademo only chargers will be swopped out. The first to go are ones that have no RFID capability.

The big issue is definitely the issue of " what next "

It would be an appalling vista to have no further expansion , even if EVs grow at a 300 plus organic growth per year , that would double the population and put the infrastructure under tremendous strain and then lead to a drop off in EV adoption.

Nor is commercialisation in the near future any solution , the current user base is way too small and you will have a drop in usage as users take up home charging , which will further depress usage charges.


The key know is to get active government involvement, to both subsidise the charger costs , resulting in free usage for a stated period and to provide investment to fund the expansion the network as the number of EVs grow.

Commercialisation can then be introduced gradually as the network is shown to mission critical and fit for purpose

All sound thinking except for the swap outs of Chademo. Do you really think they will swap out an old charger and replace it with a CCS/AC only charger?.... I doubt that somehow.

Upgrade the charger to the latest for sure, but why alienate the majority of the users by not putting in Chademo. This 2018 decision is a long way off in reality as it will probably be a phased initiative and they cant just cutoff existing users if they want to have any hope of keeping EV sales alive and of commercialising the network.

I've spoken to ESB business development and they have said the network is what it is and isnt going to build out anymore until usage increases. You are right it needs government and ESB to sit and discuss a sensible approach.... i.e. government stump up money which wont be easy with this government.... it could be a long wait.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

All sound thinking except for the swap outs of Chademo. Do you really think they will swap out an old charger and replace it with a CCS/AC only charger?.... I doubt that somehow.

Upgrade the charger to the latest for sure, but why alienate the majority of the users by not putting in Chademo. This 2018 decision is a long way off in reality as it will probably be a phased initiative and they cant just cutoff existing users if they want to have any hope of keeping EV sales alive and of commercialising the network.

I've spoken to ESB business development and they have said the network is what it is and isnt going to build out anymore until usage increases. You are right it needs government and ESB to sit and discuss a sensible approach.... i.e. government stump up money which wont be easy with this government.... it could be a long wait.

No they are upgrading to dual CCS and Chademo

I agree current expansion is finished no new installations planned.

I don't agreed it will be any harder then any other gov to get listened to. Simon Coveney might be a way in. The imposition of serious fines from the EU will focus minds veer the next few years

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

No they are upgrading to dual CCS and Chademo

I agree current expansion is finished no new installations planned.

I don't agreed it will be any harder then any other gov to get listened to. Simon Coveney might be a way in. The imposition of serious fines from the EU will focus minds veer the next few years

If they are dual CCS/Chademo then we are fine... long live Chademo!
To be honest, I dont care if Chademo dies or not over the long term just as long as no rash decisions are made about removing them in the medium term.


The issue with the government isnt getting them to listen... politicians are very good at listening... its getting them to implement and having them in government long enough to implement.... this government could last 5 months or 5 years and thats an issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no E.U legal requirement to ban ChaDeMo ? there was only a proposal ?

The ESB have not abandoned new DC installations, There won't be any more AC installations for the foreseeable future.

The ESB may perhaps install multiple chargers on the busiest sites in 2016.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no E.U legal requirement to ban ChaDeMo ? there was only a proposal ?

The ESB have not abandoned new DC installations, There won't be any more AC installations for the foreseeable future.

The ESB may perhaps install multiple chargers on the busiest sites in 2016.

I suppose the 2018 review is where the "ban" might come from. They might dictate that all new cars have CCS. It doesnt ban Chademo, just makes it weaker over time. Then again, they might allow both standards proceed. We'll just have to wait and see.

On ESB... they said they were not adding any new chargers until usage increases. They did say some sites have queuing issues around Dublin and they might increase capacity in a few sites but the network would still be the same as such.... no new sites.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no E.U legal requirement to ban ChaDeMo ? there was only a proposal ?

The ESB have not abandoned new DC installations, There won't be any more AC installations for the foreseeable future.

The ESB may perhaps install multiple chargers on the busiest sites in 2016.

The EU parliament tried to ban non CCS installations recently , it wasn't successful , it's expected that CCS will however be one the mandated standard by 2018. That doesn't prevent dual installations , but it's unlikely Nissan , as the only European provider with a stake in Chademo will continue with that standard n Europe , the expectation is the next generation Leaf will be CCS

As of now , the esb is not engaging in any expansion of the DC or AC charging infrastructure. The rollout is finished for the time being , they have announced the last few installations recently.

They are engaging in swoping out some models of FCP

this strategy has been confirmed during the very recent meeting with the IEVOA and ecars and has been also confirmed privately to me.

The next step will be a decision n the extent and nature ( if any ) of commercialisation and will be driven primarily by government policy on the incentivisation of the EV market ( or not as the case may be )

There is no commitment at present to extend the number of fcps on busier sites outside of any decisions as I have outlined above

A part of this , is the data the esb that the esb has points to people using fcps instead of charging at home , so" busier sites" is a current poor metric. The esb believes the free access is skewing statistics and in my view have a mistaken belief in commercialisation as a way to counter this.

Hence the busy sites metric is not currently a sound basis to expand FCPs

As I've said there is no capital allocated to expansion and nothing will be decided one way or the other until the esb see the outcome of the current delberations combined with the incoming Govs overall policy

Which is sensible if you are the esb, after all they mightn't even own it in the future