Season 6 Episode 1 The Red Woman thread "Book readers"

Nody

Pre empting the upcoming episode post by including some highlights from the charter. I'll try to set up each episode in advance each week; thread will be unlocked on Sunday evening.

This is ONLY about the specific episode! No information from any interviews etc. are allowed to be posted but book related information is allowed as well as the lore from the DVDs. Anything relating to interviews can be posted with a spoiler tag.


In addition anyone picking up 3 yellow cards will be banned from the forum for the current season; in case of serious enough transgressions the ban may come earlier than 3 cards

Jijsaw

Really excited for this, can't wait for 2am!

feelgoodinc27

Just rewatched "Hardhome", Sam telling Olly that it's ok to do the wrong thing for the right reasons, foreshadowing the finale, and in the same scene saying not to worry about Jon he always comes back.

GerB40

I never did like the Martells but fúck me that's a bit much...

Jijsaw

That ending- wtf?!??

Also what are they doing with Dorne? They must be trying to get it out it as soon as possible due to the negative feedback of last season.

Overall the episode was alright apart from that ending which just freaked me out. I wonder what part it will have to play in the next episode.

J. Marston

Areo Hotah died to a dagger in the back? Yeah right.

Really enjoyed the episode otherwise, even with the weird ending.

nicki11

Good episode wasn't expecting a leader to be killed off yet but I found Areo Hotah disappointing, he was supposed to be a bad ass and is killed in 2 seconds.

GerB40

J. Marston wrote: »

Areo Hotah died to a dagger in the back? Yeah right.

Really enjoyed the episode otherwise, even with the weird ending.

That was just stupid, Hotah is a tank of a man and some young wan just stabs him in the back and that's that?? I really like the Dornish masterplan theory but if it's not true then I'd be happy to see the end of Dorne.

And I assume that ending was to point out the significance of Melisandre's glamour. In every chapter Mel is in GRRM makes note of it so maybe it'll have some importance in this season? If would also explain why they killed Mance rather than follow the book's version of events. Seeing power like that twice would be too much...

At least Sansa has her father's sword (partially) back. Brienne swearing allegiance was the best part of the episode. Kinda makes me wonder about the title of one of the upcoming episodes though...

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Jesus that last scene, was like that one in The Shining that scarred me for life when I was 11.

Loved all the stuff with Sansa, Brienne, Pod and Theon. Davos was brilliant as always. Really enjoyed the stuff with Daenerys and the Dothraki, and the scenes with Tyrion and Varys. Also, loved the whole DareDevil vibe from yer wan sparring with Arya.

Like others, was disappointed with how quickly Areo Hotah and Doran Martell were disposed of, but other than that it's a solid start to the season.

Nody

Also Starring LeVar Burton wrote: »

Jesus that last scene, was like that one in The Shining that scarred me for life when I was 11.

I'm thinking that she'll give up her life to revive John now as the blood magic she's using all appear to be around blood after all and by showing that she's actually old would explain why she'd not have enough life power left in her blood to live afterwards. By sacrificing herself she'd then make sure her visions turns out to be true as her fire lord wants it to be.

Loved all the stuff with Sansa, Brienne, Pod and Theon.

My only thought here what's next? They are stuck in the middle of nowhere with no friends so will they go for the wall and get the wildlings army to support them to take the north after the wildlings have taken the wall? It feels a bit contrived.

Really enjoyed the stuff with Daenerys and the Dothraki, and the scenes with Tyrion and Varys.

I honestly preferred the book version of how the place was ruled; this felt to civilized for my taste. Where's the chaos from the queen escaping and putting the leadership in question? Where's the army at the door steps making demands? And why would you burn down the ships that would get rid of the enemy (i.e. the unsullied and the queen)? It simply does not feel as it adds up to me compared to the state it is suppose to be with a master mind behind it all and lacks the fear/paranoia of the books (and the oh so important doing evil deeds for "the greater good").

Also, loved the whole DareDevil vibe from yer wan sparring with Arya.

But why spar in the open road in front of people? This is the part I don't get; it shows everyone who she really is rather than have her walking back to the temple to spar instead...

Like others, was disappointed with how quickly Areo Hotah and Doran Martell were disposed of, but other than that it's a solid start to the season.

Well that's their way of Dorne marching I guess; compared to the book's plot this was their short cut but it's weak sauce by comparison and I'd guess we'll see the Dorne army fighting around episode 8/9 with the battle ending on episode 10 with Dragons in the sky (that would then leave season 7 to uniting the kingdoms and fighting the "ice ice baby" army).

I'll be honest I simply was not gripped by it all; I hope it will pick up and there are a lot of seeds set for the season and I hope they will blossom and grow.

Reading the other thread a great point comes up. Why are they all sitting around Jon's body when he's going to be a wight shortly going off all of the evidence they have? The logic in the episode was a bit lacking though as usual there were 1 or 2 good scenes.

The giving everything 5 minutes approach just doesn't work imo and should really have more episodes by now. I mean 50 odd minutes an episode where you have to check in on 6 or 7 characters doesn't leave a lot of time for world building...

Nody

Liam O wrote: »

The giving everything 5 minutes approach just doesn't work imo and should really have more episodes by now.

Only reason I can think of would be cost; GoT should be quite expensive to film (many locations, a ton of animals and people with limited CGI etc.) and possibly being afraid people will grow bored if the story don't move fast enough.

wp_rathead

wp_rathead

Guessing that the fleet burning leaves open the possibility that the Greyjoys will pretend to act as Mireens new navy?

wp_rathead

wp_rathead wrote: »

Guessing that the fleet burning leaves open the possibility that the Greyjoys will pretend to act as Mireens new navy?

Balon is still hanging on in the show isn't he? :pac:

wp_rathead

Liam O wrote: »

Balon is still hanging on in the show isn't he? :pac:

At the moment ya, but he should be crossing that bridge soon :P

TheDoctor

wp_rathead wrote: »

At the moment ya, but he should be crossing that bridge soon :P

Banned

wp_rathead

TheDoctor wrote: »

Banned

This is the book readers thread right?

theteal

Well overall I enjoyed it but. . .

Brienne turning up at the perfect time bugged me. Happens waaaaay to often in this show.

Dothraki Khal cracking jokes instead of heads when his subordinates question him?????

They've ruined Dorne in the show so I'll dwell no further my feelings there.

The Melisandre bit does raise a few interesting questions. I'm presuming it's something to do with giving up her life for another the same way Beric did in the book - i just thought she'd have to be in physical contact with the corpse to do so. I was waiting for JS eyes opening scene just before the credits.

Mr Freeze

Dorne, the Kingdom that held off Aegon The Conqueror and his kin for generations and was only brought into the seven kingdoms and under Targaryen rule by marriage.

A Kingdom not be messed with basically.

The show writers are cleaning house, its like they lost interest after they wrapped up The Storm Of Swords plotlines and just want this show done with now, and its suffering because of it.

Falthyron

I really enjoyed that episode, but I felt it was a little short.

In the book, Mance is being disguised by a similar amulet and Jon sends him on a mission (iirc), would the shows' creators really be so bold as to suggest the person we see as Jon Snow is in fact wearing a similar amulet and that when the amulet is removed from the body it will be someone else? And, the real Jon Snow wearing an amulet to look like someone else is nowhere to be seen at Castle Black?

It would be an incredible twist borrowed from the books!

Falthyron

Falthyron wrote: »

I really enjoyed that episode, but I felt it was a little short.

In the book, Mance is being disguised by a similar amulet and Jon sends him on a mission (iirc), would the shows' creators really be so bold as to suggest the person we see as Jon Snow is in fact wearing a similar amulet and that when the amulet is removed from the body it will be someone else? And, the real Jon Snow wearing an amulet to look like someone else is nowhere to be seen at Castle Black?

It would be an incredible twist borrowed from the books!

If the opening had been them burning Jon and at the end Melisandre turning someone into him at the end would have been good. I guess they used up Rattleshirt last season

Falthyron

Liam O wrote: »

I guess they used up Rattleshirt last season

Did they? I don't remember something like that happening in the show, or am I forgetting something obvious?

stesaurus

That was underwhelming. Dorne, I don't know what the hell is going on. They should have just cut Dorne completely if this was their plan. Overall quality has dipped massively anytime they've moved away from the source material. It's still a good tv show, i'll still be watching and hoping for improvements.

Falthyron

Falthyron wrote: »

Did they? I don't remember something like that happening in the show, or am I forgetting something obvious?

Think he was at Hardhome, though thinking back he might have gotten out...

stesaurus

Falthyron wrote: »

Did they? I don't remember something like that happening in the show, or am I forgetting something obvious?

Hardhome, Tormund dispatched him after arriving

wp_rathead

s.welstead wrote: »

That was underwhelming. Dorne, I don't know what the hell is going on. They should have just cut Dorne completely if this was their plan. Overall quality has dipped massively anytime they've moved away from the source material. It's still a good tv show, i'll still be watching and hoping for improvements.

Personally I thought it was one of the better opening episodes to a season
Everything at The Wall and in The North was very exciting imo

Wasn't it admitted last season that doing Dorne was almost a last minute decision written by one of the writers who does the History and Lore dvd extras?
Can really tell, I mean if the Dornish guards were on the side of the SandSnakes surely they would mutinied when Jamie was captured and killed him there rather than wait...
The show really did nothing with Aero which seems a waste

stesaurus

wp_rathead wrote: »

Personally I thought it was one of the better opening episodes to a season
Everything at The Wall and in The North was very exciting imo

Wasn't it admitted last season that doing Dorne was almost a last minute decision written by one of the writers who does the History and Lore dvd extras?
Can really tell, I mean if the Dornish guards were on the side of the SandSnakes surely they would mutinied when Jamie was captured and killed him there rather than wait...
The show really did nothing with Aero which seems a waste

I never heard that before but it would explain a lot.

I know the filming was done by another team who were only new to the show at the time. Time constraints meant they were filming in multiple locations so didn't have their 'A' team in Seville. And it showed with the whole Zena-esque nature of the fights and ridiculousness of it. But surely it was still well planned and written about in advance???

Mr Freeze

wp_rathead wrote: »

Wasn't it admitted last season that doing Dorne was almost a last minute decision written by one of the writers who does the History and Lore dvd extras?
Can really tell, I mean if the Dornish guards were on the side of the SandSnakes surely they would mutinied when Jamie was captured and killed him there rather than wait...
The show really did nothing with Aero which seems a waste

Seems they wanted to wrap up the Dorne stuff instead of sending them off on the already cramped SS Abandoned Plotlines with so many other characters.

Doing so like this, is kind of like an admission that Dorne was handled really badly and lets just get over that and push on.

Mr.Prodston

The first mistake I made was to rewatch 5.10 last night. I'd almost forgotten about :"You want the good girl, but need the bad pussy" :pac: The dialog was quite clunky/out of place in this episode in places too I thought?

I enjoyed the episode I guess and there's a certain thrill to not knowing what's going to happen but I was complaining more than anything to myself throughout the episode.

The good first:
- The Melisandre scene at the end was interesting. I wonder where she's going to go from there. Or is she anyone of significance from history perhaps who found the Light?

- I could watch Davos all day. (Preferably with Wyman Manderly :P) Edd stepping up was good too. They've certainly left the warging into Ghost open, as unlikely as it is.

Ok that might be it.

Brienne is some woman for defeating swathes of fighters whilst being outnumbered. Fir a second I thought Lady S might have shown up in the forest but only for half a second. Where do they go from here? To the Wall in time for Jon I suppose?

Ramsey showing some sadness for the death of another human? Yeah right. I guess Stannis is dead then

The Dothraki stuff was good but that "banter" was awful. Would Jorah be aware of Vaes Dothraek being Dany's destination? Cersei and Jaime are friends again then I suppose? I wonder how long it'll take Arya's blind training to take and where she goes from there?

Meereen seems pretty peaceful for a city that was in open revolt almost. Tyrion and Varys together can only be good I suppose despite their surroundings.

Dorne. Jesus H. What's worse than butchering Dorne for an entire season? Actually butchering the one good/interesting thing about Dorne. Doran and Hotah. As if that knife would even pierce Hotah's skin, he's a tank of man :pac:

____

I presume we have to see Bran next week? And Sam? I'm looking forward to those plots anyway. For an opening episode it was grand. We caught up with the characters and had one or two little surprises. I think it's more indifference I've had for the past year than anything else though for the show. I didn't read anything about the season at all beforehand.

RobbingBandit

Bloody Dorne scene. Always thought that was Pyp rather than Dolorous Edd. Seeing as Jon was their brother are the watch now kinslayers?

Mr.Prodston

Oh and are we to assume that Ellaria and her snakes are coming for Cersei?

I never thought I'd want Cersei to come out on top against anyone but here we are :pac:

rawn

Meereen didn't seem peaceful to me at all, more so it looked like a smoking ruin. I'm one of the few that didn't mind the Dorne scenes last season but i was screaming FOR FUXKS SAKE at the screen at Aero/Doran, especially cos i love the whole Dornish Master Plan theory. Imagine all those years of carefully planning to end like that... and Trystane... turning his back on a woman with a spear who wants to kill him.

Generic Dreadhead

I'm left rooting for almost no characters now (aside from Davos, Tryrin, Varys, Jamie and Brienne).

The "main characters" story arcs have been handled so badly.

I audibly groan anytime it goes to do an Arya Stark or Bran Stark scene.

I honestly hope they just leave Jon Show dead. As in dead dead. 100% dead. Not a warg. Not a zombie. Not a ghost. Dead. Just to mess with peoples heads :P

They totally dropped the ball not focusing on the Warging more in the show.
Introducing it now will be very ham-fisted. But they will do it regardless.
And we'll have scene after scene about an angsty, annoying, Bran Stark slowing turning himself into a tree than can control birds.

Thank f**k they didn't bother doing that spiel about the prince and his merry band of men that wander across the sea to try and marry Dany.
That was so desperately written.

It wasn't a great episode in of itself, but just more "setting things up" for the inevitable 3 much more interesting episodes each season.

stesaurus

I'm a little confused about Trystane, was he moored off Kings Landing? If so how the hell did the other two get aboard? If he's moored off of Dorne then why didn't he think to warn his father about the poisoning??? And again how the hell did the other two get aboard? And where's Bronn in all this???
The timeline is a muddle, how many weeks did it take for Jaime to get home with Myrcella? When did the Raven arrive at Dorne, I'm guessing after Jaime arrived home as he obviously didn't have Ravens otherwise he would have sent word to Cersei. Whole thing is a mess or I'm just not understanding it.

Son0vagun

Thought the episode was terrible. Really fear for the show now they are making stuff up instead of following the books. In the past the show has been terrible when it strayed from the books. Brienne and Sansa bit was good. The whole Davos story was good. And as a book reader the Melissandre transformation come was no surprise. Everything else was just bahhhhh.

duploelabs

Yeah apparently Melisandre has been alive since the time of old Valyria but I think the insertion of the necklace (although highlighted before when it glows) will tell later, maybe she puts it on someone to give them power, or make them alive again????

Son0vagun

Melissandre is apparently the daughter of the Three Eyed Raven(Brandon Rivers).

And if this be true, then she has Kings Blood.

Son0vagun

Son0vagun wrote: »

Melissandre is apparently the daughter of the Three Eyed Raven(Brandon Rivers).

Would place her around Maester Aemon's age which makes sense. There has been talk about the red god and the old gods being under the same umbrella before I think.

duploelabs

Something I saw on reddit, if the necklace is the source of Mel's disguise, then why is it she takes a bath in season 4 whilst talking to Selyse, not wearing the necklace, but still looks young??? Any ideas?

Digital Solitude

Liam O wrote: »

Would place her around Maester Aemon's age which makes sense. There has been talk about the red god and the old gods being under the same umbrella before I think.

She's from the Shadowlands beyond Ashai I thought? Wouldn't make sense for a Westerner to be able to shadowbind would it?

Nody

duploelabs wrote: »

Something I saw on reddit, if the necklace is the source of Mel's disguise, then why is it she takes a bath in season 4 whilst talking to Selyse, not wearing the necklace, but still looks young??? Any ideas?

Well if we go by the book explanation an item (such as the necklace) would help infuse the vision of what you were suppose to see the longer and more associated it was with the image in question you're attempting. Having said that not wearing it for shorter times would not remove the glamour but it would increase the risk of someone seeing the real you the longer the item was gone.

blackwhite

duploelabs wrote: »

Something I saw on reddit, if the necklace is the source of Mel's disguise, then why is it she takes a bath in season 4 whilst talking to Selyse, not wearing the necklace, but still looks young??? Any ideas?

Read a piece earlier today that speculated on this.

Mel said something to Selyse along the lines of "I need no disguises for true believers" and Selyse looked stunned/shocked, with the article speculating that Selyse was able to see Mel's true form.


EDIT: found it http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/04/game-of-thrones-melisandre-how-old-season6-episode-1-red-woman

Mr.Prodston

Son0vagun wrote: »

Melissandre is apparently the daughter of the Three Eyed Raven(Brandon Rivers).

And if this be true, then she has Kings Blood.

Where did you read this or is there any article or anything you could link? I'd be interested to read about that theory.

Hans Bricks

Dunno what to make of that. A bit underwhelming. Melisandre and even the Shock twist in the Dornish storyline was interesting, but it was very much a catch up.

I don't think I can hack anymore stalling about in Meereen with Dany and the rest of them. Arya's story is just becoming more irritable. Both seem like pure filler from now on.

Melisandre definitely feels like the sacrificial lamb for Jon Snow now.

rawn

Hans Bricks wrote: »

Melisandre definitely feels like the sacrificial lamb for Jon Snow now.

Yeah, I can imagine when he is being burned on the pyre she will say she has lost faith and now it's time to give herself to the flames, and somehow this will result in Jon resurrecting, fulfilling her Azor Ahai(?) prophecy.

Does Davos know that Shireen is dead, and more importantly how it happened? I can't imagine him allowing her to live if he knew...

Son0vagun

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Where did you read this or is there any article or anything you could link? I'd be interested to read about that theory.

If you google S+B=M you'll find a few Theories.

The Pheasant2

Had sworn I wouldn't watch any more of the show for fear of it spoiling the books. However, I realised it was probably going to be spoiled on me at some point anyway so I reluctantly decided to proceed with season 6...all I can say is I REALLY hope the show has now completely diverted from the books.

The Dorne scene, holy hell wtf was that?! So much plot development etc devoted to this in the books, just...gone. Areo Hotah, a POV character, one of the biggest badasses in the 7 killed in an instant. I don't even like Dorne as a setting that much but **** me that plotline had a lot of potential. In lieu of this we're left with some incredibly one dimensional characters with some weak motives for their baffling actions. I mean how the F*CK did those Sandsnakes even get on the boat with Trystane in the first place?!

Nody

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Had sworn I wouldn't watch any more of the show for fear of it spoiling the books. However, I realised it was probably going to be spoiled on me at some point anyway so I reluctantly decided to proceed with season 6...all I can say is I REALLY hope the show has now completely diverted from the books.

The Dorne deviation happened back in season 5 already so no worry there.

The Pheasant2

Nody wrote: »

The Dorne deviation happened back in season 5 already so no worry there.

Ah I see; didn't watch S5 so I suppose I can expect returning to a few story arcs and not having a clue what's going on because of diversions

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

s.welstead wrote: »

I'm a little confused about Trystane, was he moored off Kings Landing? If so how the hell did the other two get aboard? If he's moored off of Dorne then why didn't he think to warn his father about the poisoning??? And again how the hell did the other two get aboard? And where's Bronn in all this???
The timeline is a muddle, how many weeks did it take for Jaime to get home with Myrcella? When did the Raven arrive at Dorne, I'm guessing after Jaime arrived home as he obviously didn't have Ravens otherwise he would have sent word to Cersei. Whole thing is a mess or I'm just not understanding it.

Yeah that was a howler. The show has been sliding into that sort of stuff for about the last two seasons though, I suppose it's a result of having to map out about a dozen or more plots that overlap and shoot off on their own again. They're tight for screen time and they seem to be prioritising 'where do we have to get to in the next three minutes' over 'does the way we get there have to make any bit of sense', which is completely understandable but makes for a sometimes frustrating viewing experience.

I mean in season one to three there was the central Lannister Stark conflict, Jon at the wall, Daenarys and a small few peripheral bits, and they could take their time and pay attention to detail. After the Red Wedding people started splitting up all over the place, so we increasingly get people just happening to arrive in time to conveniently save someone, clichéd dialogue (which has gotten very anachronistic, like Davos' 'we'll get back to you with an answer' in this episode), and people acting in a way that makes no sense for the character.

I think I remember reading that GRRM turned down offers to make films from the books, thank god because even ten hours per season is having to move through a lot very quickly.