Nematodirus

roosky

Hi all,

This nematodirus seems to be the buzz word in the papers, newsletters and online.

I have lambs that are 5 weeks old back to 10 days old and no sign of scour on them yet, because of my job i can only dose them on weekends!

Do i go now with a dose for nematodirus as a precaution or do i leave it a week.

I was thinking if i go early i might have to do them again in a week or two?

Is it too risky, considering the warm spell, to leave them for a week????

stantheman1979

Its a funny one. One min they tell us to get dung samples tested and only dose for what type of worms they have as sheeep are becoming immune to the medicines but they say u should dose for nemetodiris before they get it but that one of the cheaper white or yellow drenches will do if you go in early!!!???

rangler1

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Its a funny one. One min they tell us to get dung samples tested and only dose for what type of worms they have as sheeep are becoming immune to the medicines but they say u should dose for nemetodiris before they get it but that one of the cheaper white or yellow drenches will do if you go in early!!!???

Two completely different life cycles involved, when you get worm eggs in the dung, there's not much damage done where as by the time there's nematodirus eggs in the dung there's a lot of damage done. all worm doses only last 24 hrs against nemotodirus even cydectin so you might as well wait for the notice.

Here's a website to follow,
http://www.scops.org.uk/alerts-detail.php?AlertID=50

I'll be testing ours next week so will give you an indication for the midlands

Jack180570

rangler1 wrote: »

Two completely different life cycles involved, when you get worm eggs in the dung, there's not much damage done where as by the time there's nematodirus eggs in the dung there's a lot of damage done. all worm doses only last 24 hrs against nemotodirus even cydectin so you might as well wait for the notice.

Here's a website to follow,
http://www.scops.org.uk/alerts-detail.php?AlertID=50

I'll be testing ours next week so will give you an indication for the midlands

Agree with you rangler... the scops map is only showing 3 stations in uk as ready to dose and none of the other 30 or 40 inc the 3 in Irl as being ready to dose... dont think we had had enough warm weather yet and is a waste dosing for something that is not there... I did samples last week and should have results tomorrow... will nematodirus show up in the Ewe dung samples?

sheepfarmer92

The weathers too cold for nematodirus at the minute, I think they say it needs a temperature of 10 degrees night and day to hatch out.

Username John

I saw two lambs here dirty this morning... Now, two swallows don't make a summer, but am still debating dosing tomorrow...

If they don't get dosed tomorrow, it'll prob be sat week, as won't be around this weekend and they going to a field that's awkward to get em out of...

What to do... What to do...

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

I saw two lambs here dirty this morning... Now, two swallows don't make a summer, but am still debating dosing tomorrow...

If they don't get dosed tomorrow, it'll prob be sat week, as won't be around this weekend and they going to a field that's awkward to get em out of...

What to do... What to do...

just to confuse you further,we tested today and have to dose for nematodirus this week.
If you do dose. use the cheapest white dose because we'll probably have to go again when the weather heats up.
If you dose and they don't improve, it could be coccidiocis, but unlikely in your case

Jack180570

Username John wrote: »

I saw two lambs here dirty this morning... Now, two swallows don't make a summer, but am still debating dosing tomorrow...

If they don't get dosed tomorrow, it'll prob be sat week, as won't be around this weekend and they going to a field that's awkward to get em out of...

What to do... What to do...

If it isnt too awkward you could collect fecal samples and send to the lab? ... just finished footbathing a bunch of ewes and lambs... damn those lambs take an AGE to produce any amount of s***t to send to lab...

And then had a lame ewe and gave her an injection of oxytet in the neck... and then she collapsed and died... I must have hit a vein?
And lost one overnight with grass tetany... least grass is beginning to grow

Username John

Jack180570 wrote: »

If it isnt too awkward you could collect fecal samples and send to the lab? ... just finished footbathing a bunch of ewes and lambs... damn those lambs take an AGE to produce any amount of s***t to send to lab...

And then had a lame ewe and gave her an injection of oxytet in the neck... and then she collapsed and died... I must have hit a vein?
And lost one overnight with grass tetany... least grass is beginning to grow

Will just dose em I think...

The cost of the lab test vs the amount of white dose I'll use - it wouldn't be worth it...
Plus the time element...

No, wil just dose em and be done with it...

If you don't mind me asking jack - you're organic I think are you? What does that mean for dosing lambs?

Jack180570

Username John wrote: »

Will just dose em I think...

The cost of the lab test vs the amount of white dose I'll use - it wouldn't be worth it...
Plus the time element...

No, wil just dose em and be done with it...

If you don't mind me asking jack - you're organic I think are you? What does that mean for dosing lambs?

Yep, organic in-conversion is what they call it for the first two years so will be June 2017 before we are fully organic... no bother asking, isnt that what this is all about, sharing the knowledge/information...

For dosing its not really a problem.
We have a flock health plan and as long as we stick within what is on that there isn't a problem with a few caveats...
1. If you give more than 2 courses of treatments in a 12mth period to an animal then that animal cannot be sold as organic.
2. Medicine withdrawal times are doubled in general and tripled for short withdrawal times.

And if it is not in the flock health plan then you just add it in to it... the health plan is supposed to be a living document and you are expected to revise it at least once a year... you will need your vet to sign off on it when revised.

You cannot use OP dips but you can use the non-OP ones
This year we will vaccinate, dose for coccidiosis, dose for worms based on FEC's... we dose for fluke based on FEC's and visual assessment..

Its not too bad on dosing but what we find difficult is no spraying for weeds and we are only allowed to use certain expensive fertilisers
P is from ground rock phosphate or slag
K is from Patentkali which is 25% K and costs around 500/T which is damn expensive when you compare it to MOP which is 50% K and costs around 450

Username John

Dosed lambs this morning with a white dose, and gave ewes a cobalt dose as well...

One job done anyways, for a while, til we have to do it again I guess

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Dosed lambs this morning with a white dose, and gave ewes a cobalt dose as well...

One job done anyways, for a while, til we have to do it again I guess

Wish i was that far on......nearly 400 in the first batch, at least it's good weather...hate handling wet lambs

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

Wish i was that far on......nearly 400 in the first batch, at least it's good weather...hate handling wet lambs

Ah - it's only a hobby flock I have rangler. I'm hardly a farmer 'tall really

ganmo

The only thing worse than wet sheep
Wet dog

Jack180570

Got the first lot of FEC's back on Monday and Lambs showing all clear, ewes showed positive for worms (100 EPG) and Coccidia (100 OPG).
The youngest lambs in the main groups are 3-6 weeks old as of today and with all the talk of Nematodiris warnings have decided to dose tomorrow..
Three doses for lambs and footbathing all the main groups.
Genesis for the Nematodiris (because I have some just about to go out of date)
Bovicox for the Coccidiosis (as we have a problem with it on the farm and the lambs are under stress this spring due to grass being slow)
HeptavacP+ for first vaccination of lambs
.... going to be a busy day!

rangler1

Jack180570 wrote: »

Got the first lot of FEC's back on Monday and Lambs showing all clear, ewes showed positive for worms (100 EPG) and Coccidia (100 OPG).
The youngest lambs in the main groups are 3-6 weeks old as of today and with all the talk of Nematodiris warnings have decided to dose tomorrow..
Three doses for lambs and footbathing all the main groups.
Genesis for the Nematodiris (because I have some just about to go out of date)
Bovicox for the Coccidiosis (as we have a problem with it on the farm and the lambs are under stress this spring due to grass being slow)
HeptavacP+ for first vaccination of lambs
.... going to be a busy day!

We had a vet from athlone lab at our discussion group today telling us that they are getting nemotodirus in the FECs too

Jack180570

rangler1 wrote: »

We had a vet from athlone lab at our discussion group today telling us that they are getting nemotodirus in the FECs too

Well to be honest I was thinking that if I didnt dose them now for the Nematodirus and Coccidiosis when I was bringing them in for the vaccination then when would I dose them... enough work in it doing it this way not to mind handling them again in a week or two!

And they say that a lot of damage is already done by the time that the Nematodirus shows up in the FEC's
'It is important to note that while larvae cause a lot of damage, it is only adult worms that produce eggs. Therefore, Faecal Egg Counts are of little
use in determining if there is a need to treat lambs. Due to the effect of prevailing weather conditions, the Department of Agriculture, Food ant the Marine (DAFM) regularly issue warnings, usually in April or May, when they predict a likely outbreak of the disease. These warnings should be treated seriously.'

http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2014/3114/Nematodirus-Coccidiosis_%20Feb%202014.pdf

roosky

Decided to bite the bullet and throw a dose into them as a precautionary measure today.........if they hadnt got it by now and inly picked it up in the coming week would that dose have been a waste???

rangler1

roosky wrote: »

Decided to bite the bullet and throw a dose into them as a precautionary measure today.........if they hadnt got it by now and inly picked it up in the coming week would that dose have been a waste???

Whatever they have in them and for 24hrs after dosing, that's all the cover you have, thats why they advise the cheapest dose.
For ordinary stomach worms they recommend dosing when the Fecal Egg Count is 500, but once even one nemo is seen in the FEC there's harm done to the lamb

roosky

rangler1 wrote:

Whatever they have in them and for 24hrs after dosing, that's all the cover you have, thats why they advise the cheapest dose. For ordinary stomach worms they recommend dosing when the Fecal Egg Count is 500, but once even one nemo is seen in the FEC there's harm done to the lamb

So would the best option be to redose in two weeks again ?

rangler1

roosky wrote: »

So would the best option be to redose in two weeks again ?

Before all this testing crack, we used to be advised to dose march born lambs at 6, 9 and 14 weeks of age. Even with testing that seems to be the way it works out, Probably be some stomach worms in three weeks time

roosky

rangler1 wrote:

Before all this testing crack, we used to be advised to dose march born lambs at 6, 9 and 14 weeks of age. Even with testing that seems to be the way it works out, Probably be some stomach worms in three weeks time

And would 3 weeks not be too long to leave them with nematadirus or can i leave the job off till then

rangler1

roosky wrote: »

And would 3 weeks not be too long to leave them with nematadirus or can i leave the job off till then

We wouldn't test again for three weeks and we'd be high risk because of our stocking rate.

Bleating Lamb

So is this a 'new' worm to Ireland?.... or just the flavour of the month for dosing companies to sell product to kill!....(tongue in cheek)

See Rangler recommending a 'cheap' white dose to treat it.....anyone recommend one?.....will be doing lambs with Cydectin this evening ....would it be ok to do them with a white dose at the same time for it?.....will be giving them a shot of Bovithrive too.

rangler1

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

So is this a 'new' worm to Ireland?.... or just the flavour of the month for dosing companies to sell product to kill!....(tongue in cheek)

See Rangler recommending a 'cheap' white dose to treat it.....anyone recommend one?.....will be doing lambs with Cydectin this evening ....would it be ok to do them with a white dose at the same time for it?.....will be giving them a shot of Bovithrive too.

Pm'd you there, been dosing for them here for twenty years, finding them in dung samples too, you're probably low stocked with sheep or you'd know about them long before now. Cydectin will kill them too but won't last six weeks for nemotodirus. no need to go with both

Bleating Lamb

rangler1 wrote: »

Pm'd you there, been dosing for them here for twenty years, finding them in dung samples too, you're probably low stocked with sheep or you'd know about them long before now. Cydectin will kill them too but won't last six weeks for nemotodirus. no need to go with both

Thanks,sent you a PM there.

rangler1

Bought 10 ltrs wormall last week for €50, does about 2000 25kg lambs, the same in Cydectin would cost nearly €270.
White dose is losing its effect for stomach worms on a lot of farms but it still kills nemodirus.
use whatever you have at home if you haven;t many sheep

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

Bought 10 ltrs wormall last week for €50, does about 2000 25kg lambs,

You buy that locally or off one of the online shops ? Local Dairygold here. So they only stock dual purpose cattle stuff. Sheep ain't high up on their priority.

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

You buy that locally or off one of the online shops ? Local Dairygold here. So they only stock dual purpose cattle stuff. Sheep ain't high up on their priority.

A small shop in mullingar called vet farm supplies, have never bet it on price anywhere, hard to believe you get it so hard to get sheep stuff, we have glanbia beside us too with not a lot of interest in sheep too.
They might yet, the dairy guys cant be great customers now,

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

A small shop in mullingar called vet farm supplies, have never bet it on price anywhere, hard to believe you get it so hard to get sheep stuff,

Ya, put it this way, when the decussion groups were going, teagasc didn't even have one group in the whole county as they couldn't pull together enough to form even one group. It's all about dairy and cattle here. Coops around here stock basics but don't stock sheep mineral lick buckets, sheep vitamin drenches, clik at a reasonable price, lamb pellets etc. Luckily have found specialists for most items at this stage. A week or two ago the local animal feed merchants who manufacturer a very good lamb pellet ran out, and I couldn't source an alternative supplier anywhere else. Tried several.

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

Ya, put it this way, when the decussion groups were going, teagasc didn't even have one group in the whole county as they couldn't pull together enough to form even one group. It's all about dairy and cattle here. Coops around here stock basics but don't stock sheep mineral lick buckets, sheep vitamin drenches, clik at a reasonable price, lamb pellets etc. Luckily have found specialists for most items at this stage. A week or two ago the local animal feed merchants who manufacturer a very good lamb pellet ran out, and I couldn't source an alternative supplier anywhere else. Tried several.

On the plus side - with so little sheep around, if yours break out, tis only one phone call for people to make to tell you, there is no ringing around to check who's they are

Green farmer

Thank god, lovely and clammy weather here. Temperature up, heavy misting all day. Would this weather cause a worm explosion as well as grass spurt ?

roosky

I seen cydectin will protect sheep from worms for 35 days so does that include nematadirus or can I just dose tomorrow with cydectin and forget about dosing for 4 weeks

glenkeo

hi
Found a big lamb this evening about 8 weeks old finding it hard to get its breath died short while later, done two weeks ago with withe does and ewe would have got heptavac 4 weeks pre lambing, what signs would there be of a lamb dying of worm burden, the lamb was in great form wool very clean and no sign of stress. Have not done the lambs with heptavac until later in the year for a long time now , but would be thinking that that is the more likely cause

rangler1

roosky wrote: »

I seen cydectin will protect sheep from worms for 35 days so does that include nematadirus or can I just dose tomorrow with cydectin and forget about dosing for 4 weeks

It doesn't cover nemotodirus for 35 days, but it does kill whats there.

rangler1

glenkeo wrote: »

hi
Found a big lamb this evening about 8 weeks old finding it hard to get its breath died short while later, done two weeks ago with withe does and ewe would have got heptavac 4 weeks pre lambing, what signs would there be of a lamb dying of worm burden, the lamb was in great form wool very clean and no sign of stress. Have not done the lambs with heptavac until later in the year for a long time now , but would be thinking that that is the more likely cause

The benefit of the ewes vaccine would be wearing off at 6 weeks,

roosky

rangler1 wrote: »

It doesn't cover nemotodirus for 35 days, but it does kill whats there.

Thanks rangler, would you suggest doing them with a cheap white dose now and watch the FEC results from then on.......when does nematidirus stop being a concern

Dickie10

should i dose lambs with a white drench now for nematotadirus? there stocked heavily about 80 ewes and 120 lambs approx across 26 acres, field has gotten dirty and they will be moved when dosed.

when should i move after dosing , straight away?

Jack180570

I dosed for coccidosis and nematodiris last weekend and today I spotted one of the single ram lambs (about 7 wks old) with a very dirty rear end, black scour over his entire tail and down 3/4 way on his back legs.... did FEC's 2 wks ago and lambs came up clear but ewes showed 100epg on both Cocc and Nemat...
Any idea what the problem is and what I should do... Im guessing I probably will see a few more lambs with same situation in the next few days/week
I used Bovicox and Genesis

Stocking is very tight (even though grass is plentiful now), pastures are very dirty.

Thanks in advance... Jack

Username John

Dosed with Panacour on 26th April, seen one lamb dirty again last night...

Will dose em again Monday probably... (away the weekend now...)

rangler1

roosky wrote: »

Thanks rangler, would you suggest doing them with a cheap white dose now and watch the FEC results from then on.......when does nematidirus stop being a concern

Yea dose them if they over 5 - 6 wks, it isn't as big risk from end may on but is still there.Just something to be aware of if you use cydectin and they are scoured or dry in the coat after 3 or 4 weeks that cydectin doesn't last long on nematodirus

rangler1

Dickie10 wrote: »

should i dose lambs with a white drench now for nematotadirus? there stocked heavily about 80 ewes and 120 lambs approx across 26 acres, field has gotten dirty and they will be moved when dosed.

when should i move after dosing , straight away?

I always give them a change after dosing, don't think it makes any difference here as the place is full of worms, no clean paddocks', dose f they're over 5 weeks.
The reason i say to use a white dose is that it'll do the job and give you the opportunity to change dose in the next treatment, which is good practise.......using cydectin too many times wil eventually lessen it's effect

rangler1

Jack180570 wrote: »

I dosed for coccidosis and nematodiris last weekend and today I spotted one of the single ram lambs (about 7 wks old) with a very dirty rear end, black scour over his entire tail and down 3/4 way on his back legs.... did FEC's 2 wks ago and lambs came up clear but ewes showed 100epg on both Cocc and Nemat...
Any idea what the problem is and what I should do... Im guessing I probably will see a few more lambs with same situation in the next few days/week
I used Bovicox and Genesis

Stocking is very tight (even though grass is plentiful now), pastures are very dirty.

Thanks in advance... Jack

don't know what that could be

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Dosed with Panacour on 26th April, seen one lamb dirty again last night...

Will dose em again Monday probably... (away the weekend now...)

,

FEC tested lambs here yesterday, lambs dosed around 29th are clear here still

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

,

FEC tested lambs here yesterday, lambs dosed around 29th are clear here still

I had a walk around em last night actually, and decided against it too... Couldn't see the one dirty lamb, but the rest looked OK...

For almost the first time this year, I thought the lambs looked well... I might bring em in this evening, there's a few ewes lame, give em some cobalt and maybe weigh a few lambs... Just for interest...

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

I had a walk around em last night actually, and decided against it too... Couldn't see the one dirty lamb, but the rest looked OK...

For almost the first time this year, I thought the lambs looked well... I might bring em in this evening, there's a few ewes lame, give em some cobalt and maybe weigh a few lambs... Just for interest...

Yea, thought mine looked good too yesterday, going to give them cobalt soon too, animax has a new bolus out now, especially for lambs and supposed to give more cobalt, expensive too at 1.25/lamb, but at least it's something else you don't have to worry about for the rest of the year.
They need the minerals especially at weaning

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

Yea, thought mine looked good too yesterday, going to give them cobalt soon too, animax has a new bolus out now, especially for lambs and supposed to give more cobalt, expensive too at 1.25/lamb, but at least it's something else you don't have to worry about for the rest of the year.
They need the minerals especially at weaning

What age are the lambs that you'll be giving the bolus to?

I was only going to give the sheep cobalt, and was thinking that the lambs would get the cobalt still through the milk.
They would be about 8-9 weeks old now.

Its a cobalt dose I give them, even though the ewes got a cobalt bolus after lambing, I still top em up with the cobalt dose every few weeks.
Might not bother with the bolus next year - with small numbers its as handy to dose em, when they're in anyways...

roosky

Username John wrote:

and maybe weigh a few lambs... Just for interest...

And thats what happens when you get a few free hours....you make work....i done the same yesterday

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

What age are the lambs that you'll be giving the bolus to?

I was only going to give the sheep cobalt, and was thinking that the lambs would get the cobalt still through the milk.
They would be about 8-9 weeks old now.

Its a cobalt dose I give them, even though the ewes got a cobalt bolus after lambing, I still top em up with the cobalt dose every few weeks.
Might not bother with the bolus next year - with small numbers its as handy to dose em, when they're in anyways...

I do them at ten weeks so that it's working at weaning, milk would be reducing now so there mightn't be much cobalt

Username John

Username John wrote: »

What age are the lambs that you'll be giving the bolus to?

I was only going to give the sheep cobalt, and was thinking that the lambs would get the cobalt still through the milk.
They would be about 8-9 weeks old now.

Its a cobalt dose I give them, even though the ewes got a cobalt bolus after lambing, I still top em up with the cobalt dose every few weeks.
Might not bother with the bolus next year - with small numbers its as handy to dose em, when they're in anyways...

Dosed ewes and lambs with cobalt before work this morning, and gave the lambs a white drench as well. A few of em looked a bit dirty, and when I had em in, said I'd do it... right or wrong, not sure...

roosky wrote: »

And thats what happens when you get a few free hours....you make work....i done the same yesterday

Do you know, you're right. I have enough to be done. Put off weighing em for a while...

Want to bring em in again this evening to run em through a footbath...

Green farmer

Going to dose mine at the weekend . They are between 6-8 weeks old. Some still look fair small. What volume would lads recommend as a first dose ? Was just going to assume a weight of 10kg and dose to that unless they were exceptionally big ?