N22 - Farranfore to Killarney [route options published]

DylanQuestion

It would be great if they moved the train station (or added another station) closer to the airport, and improved the N23 between the airport and train station. It’s only a bit over a 1km walk, and there is street lighting, but the existing footpath is quite small. There’s also no footpath coming out of the train station, nor a pedestrian crossing over the N22 to the N23. Given it’s the only airport in the country with anything close to a train station connected to it, it should be greatly improved on to take full advantage of that

dmeehan

In the papers today, but no sign of any funding

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/south-kerry-news/where-is-the-killarney-bypass-taoiseach/a386539522.html

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122536152#Comment_122536152

Taoiseach isn't the one to blame here.

yerwanthere123

What's actually holding this back right now? Is it lack of funding? Lack of a final route being chosen, or both?

Killarney badly needs a bypass, the town is so choked during peak times. Can take 20 minutes to get from High Street to Park Road at the worst of times.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122537153#Comment_122537153

A decision by the Minister not to fund the project (let’s be clear here Ireland does not have a funding issue at the minute) and a whole pile of green tape he has introduced since taking up the role in 2020.

There’s 10+ projects that have been affected by the same defunding and the effects of the green tape issue are only slowly coming to the fore (see recently when a port motorway through rural Wexford has been delayed by years now due to lack of active travel consideration)

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122537153#Comment_122537153

Killarney will never get another bypass. The cost would be enormous and very little traffic would actually use it. The vast majority of traffic there is going to/from Killarney, there isn't much long distance traffic to be displaced.

Other options will have to be implemented. A link road from the N22/N72 roundabout to the N71 could relieve some pressure. A proper bus service which isn't hobbled by general traffic and a cycle network would do a lot of good. The N22 is very close to the rail line not far from the twon on both side, P&Rs could allow visitors get into town without having to drive in. The set up at the train station would be an issue though.

CB19Kevo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122540244#Comment_122540244

I wonder does the data actually back up what you are saying?
22,890 per day using the existing bypass, is that deemed high for a single carriageway?

Locally and indeed nationally i don't think there is any question of the need for this,if it was deemed needed prior to 2007 surely it is needed now with increased traffic flows, its just the release of funding that is the issue..

Locally there seems to be a big push currently to get some progress here.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122560491#Comment_122560491

How much of that traffic do you think wants to completely bypass Killarney? The town is a major attraction, drawing in huge numbers of international tourists, while also being a big commercial centre for the region. Apart from traffic which wants to be in/around Killarney, I don't see other major traffic flows for the N22 around Killarney. Cork - Tralee/Dingle would contribute something but not huge. Traffic between north Kerry and the south west of the county wouldn't be nothing but not significant at any given time of the day.

The cost of an outer bypass for Killarney would be massive. Such a bypass would have to be quite far out which would be difficult terrain. I doubt it would take much traffic off the existing Killarney bypass, it just wouldn't be worth it. Without any data, I suspect that a link road from the N22/N72 roundabout to the N71 could take as much traffic off the current N22 as an outer bypass would, but at a fraction of the price.

Any major investment around Killarney should be into public transport. If you can get a large proportion of visitors to leave their car on the edge of town and take a short trip in on public transport instead, you'd relieve a huge amount of traffic, both on the existing bypass and in the town centre.

hans aus dtschl

I don't see why Kerry Co Co should get another "road bailout" for their abdication of responsibility in planning the town. There's literally fields in the middle of town and they're allowing development along the bypass road, it's obscene.

There's also no real transport to speak of other than cars. One of the most prominent and busy sites in the town centre is a surface car park. If we're talking about another bypass of the current bypass we might as well just give up altogether.

For such a "picturesque town", it's fairly bloody ugly at the edges. As you approach town it's like you're driving through a suburban housing estate. They need a proper long-term town development plan, with a transport plan as part of it. Throwing an oul bypass on the bypass is a waste of time.

In saying all of this, I also acknowledge that Killarney traffic can be very bad. But just throwing a bypass on it is pointless. Just fix the current bypass, it'll cost less and work out better.

marno21

I haven't conducted extensive traffic modelling on the roads around Killarney, but 23k on the "bypass", which is a glorified inner relief road at this stage given that it starts and ends within the 50km/h zone of the town, and both terminal roundabouts are now walled in by development.

23k on the town's relief road is traffic already avoiding the town. That's more than 2x the capacity of the road, just of traffic avoiding the town. There's additional traffic going via the town to reach it's destination.

On the current relief road, a car going from the Rock Road to SuperValu is sharing the same road as a car going from Cork to Tralee along with a car going from Kilgarvan to the airport. One corridor is catering to extremely local journeys and cross country journeys.

There is no avoiding the need for new infrastructure here. There are two components needed (luckily which happen to be the focus of the plan).

1. A bypass carrying N22 traffic along the planned route. There's c. 7k of traffic coming from Cork on the N22 at the Cork border. This is joined by traffic coming from the R569 and the N72. Tralee is a major traffic generator of its own, along with Farranfore and other parts of the county. Killarney is not the terminal destination on the N22 for good reason.
2. A link road from the new bypass to the N71 that will remove traffic going to the N71 from the town. This would include traffic coming from the north and traffic coming from the east.

Killarney is a very unique town in the sense that has extremely variable seasonal populations, and will always be car dependent. It's very low density, very sprawly and has geographical constraints that make the traffic worse (there are no orbital roads whatsover in the SW quadrant of the town due to the national park for instance)

Of the above, the N71 link should be prioritised given how cheap it would be and would be effective at declogging some of the town. Long term a new N22 routing around the town is needed though.

That's before you touch on the absolute **** show that is the N22 from Killarney to Farranfore both in terms of safety and capacity. It's a nightmare to drive and quite dangerous also.

KrisW1001

It's not all "traffic avoiding the town" - not by a long way.

Both ends of this "bypass" lead back into the town centre, and I have driven past Killarney enough to see that almost all of the "bypass" traffic is local: volumes are dramatically lower on the routes either side of the town bypass.

I'm in favour of an outer bypass, but only if it is a real bypass of Killarney, with no local juctions. Also, the current design for this new road treats one area that does need a proper bypass, N22 to Muckross Rd (currently via a narrow lane and residential street), as an afterthought.

hans aus dtschl

I was actually thinking the same, that the one section that really does need a bypass is N71 (Muckross) to N22. There is some traffic on the "bypass" that's not local but it's mostly local by far.

Salvadoor

A quick fix would be to remove/change all the pedestrian lights/crossing at both ends of the current bypass.

Driving from Lisivigeen to the Tralee or Killorglin roads is hampered by these obstacles.

dmeehan

Preferred route will be published before the year end:

N22 Preferred Route to be revealed by year end - Killarney Advertiser

Rows Grower

Killarney is a nightmare to have to drive through especially since the Macroom bypass open.

There should be a proper road built linking Cork directly to Tralee with turn offs for Killarney town and the Airport.

We've had enough of this Green Party tripe about prioritising public transport and cycling lanes. Then to read people here complaining it would be too costly, sweet Lord above there's plenty money there just build the road and be done with it.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122562955#Comment_122562955

Nobody is saying it's too costly, we're saying it's an absolute waste of money. What will you do when the next bypass of the bypass clogs up because the Kerry Co Co allowed more development than all of Belgium?

I don't want my tax money spent on sops to one-off unsustainable development thanks. So spend a billion euro fixing the bypass by all means, but not another bypass of the bypass.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122562826#Comment_122562826

Underpass or overpass yep. And get rid of the "personal" entrances and exits. And get rid of the Woodlands Road roundabout. And an upgrade of the junction at the Rock Road Roundabout. And probably an upgrade of the ballydowney roundabout while we're at it. The vast majority of the existing bypass is absolutely fine, it's just being abused to the point of being dysfunctional by crap planning.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122562955#Comment_122562955

The Preferred Route hasn't even been published yet, there are several years worth of surveys and design work ro be done before it can start its two year stint with ABP. Tendering and construction will take another few years. This type of "just build the road and forget about anything else" attitude is tantamount to saying "just do nothing for the next decade".

The flip side of that is if took the opposite approach (doing the other things now while the road project trundles along), we could have something which would ease the problems in a few years. Killarney is not too badly set up, the N22 practically touches the rail line on both sides of the town. A P&R on each side along with changes to encourage visitors to use them would be quite easy. You would have one set running back and forth all day. Instead a lot of people would rather fantasise about a €0.5bn road possibly opening sometime in the 2030s.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122563123#Comment_122563123

You were one of the two that brought cost into the discussion.

I know there's a lot of unemployed people posting on this forum that wouldn't work to keep themselves warm but you're argument about you don't want your tax money spent on a new road is ridiculous.

Do you think you're the only one posting on here that pays tax?

Read my post I didn't suggest a bypass of the bypass ("bypass" ffs have you actually ever driven outside of Killarney?) I said build a road that directly connects Cork to Tralee.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122563184#Comment_122563184

You're the other poster that brought cost into the discussion as if you were personally going to be billed extra for it.

Where in the name of God are you getting the impression my post means do nothing for the next decade?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122563562#Comment_122563562

You said "just build the road and be done with it", that literally means do nothing to address the problem for the next decade. It will take at least a decade for a new road here to open, that's the reality of it.

And the "as if you were personally going to be billed extra for it" thing is also mindless ignoring of the processes which exist. The project itself will be assessed under the PSC and any supplemental assessmens twhich may be added between now and then. Plus we are creating a situation where there'll be several billion € worth of roads projects construction ready at the same time, while we'll also have maybe €15bn of major public transport projects already under construction. There will be limited funding and resources available so plenty of projects are going to be left waiting.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122564119#Comment_122564119

There you go again with your "we can't afford it baloney".

You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

It's an investment that will pay dividends and it needs to be done sooner rather than later.

The government have practically a blank cheque for every bill, a blind man could see that.

Have you noticed how much we have spent on the Childrens Hospital we are still waiting on?

Have you thought about how much it is costing us taxpayers to supplement the recent wave of new arrivals?

The country is awash with money, a road from Cork to Tralee should have been done decades ago.

Have you ever thought of the cost of the Jack Lynch Tunnel, the Macroom Bypass or the cost of the Dunkettle Roundabout?

Did you ever wonder about the cost of those concrete barriers on the main Cork to Dublin road?

Money is not an object, the money is there. It's all about convincing the people who control the purse strings that it needs to be spent in Kerry.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122563544#Comment_122563544

You're all over the place. Read back through the thread, the discussion was literally about an outer bypass of the existing bypass, which a few of us think is a bad idea.

Again, nobody is saying "there isn't enough money" or "don't spend in Kerry". We're saying we should prioritise projects that make sense. Just because we have money available it doesn't mean we should burn it on basically pointless projects. The current bypass of Killarney, I use it plenty myself and agree it's dysfunctional and needs some fixes. I have been stuck in those traffic jams. But more importantly the whole town needs a proper transport plan and "fixing a road" isn't enough, that's what plenty of us here are saying.

This isn't Buttevant or Macroom. The jams that affects the bypass typically affect the roads directly into and out of the town even more. That's not people going to Tralee or Killorglin, it's large volumes of local people. Killarney is the origin and the destination for a lot of the traffic on that road. A flow that does need to be dealt with is traffic to/from Muckross Road alright.

And if you're more interested in a direct route between Cork and Tralee, then I'd be very interested in what way the numbers work out when the NM20 is completed: it may be the case that the reasonably poor quality N72 becomes a far more urgent project.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122564583#Comment_122564583

Talk about all over the place. You're lost.

Are you now speaking on behalf of the other poster as well?

Who are you referring to when you say "We"?

How exactly do you conclude that building a direct road from Cork to Tralee is basically a pointless project?

Fixing the road is exactly what needs to happen. You have this thing in your head that upgrading what you think is a bypass is the answer.

It's not. That's not a bypass, it's a little rat run.

People travelling to the Airport, Tralee and beyond don't want to be caught up by f*cking horses and carts in the middle of the busiest roundabout in Killarney.

Nobody wants to be caught behind the endless tour bus drivers or God forbid be innocently driving in the opposite direction to them.

The place is a nightmare, the powers that be need to give decent tax payers the option of not getting caught up in it when we have no interest or time for it.

marno21

It's important at this stage to establish that Killarney does not have a bypass. It has an inner relief road. It's disingenuous to label the road between the Park Road Roundabout and the Ballydowney Roundabout as being a bypass when it starts and terminates within the 50km/h boundaries of the town. This road opened in 1990 and the world has changed a lot since then, and it's only natural that the town has developed since then in the context of the development of Ireland in the meantime.

There are a number of places in Ireland which received "bypasses" in this time which are either properly bypassed since. In the last 10 years: New Ross and Castlebar. In the 2000s there was a whole heap of towns properly bypassed. Proper bypasses to replace 90s ones are planned for Rathkeale, Killarney, Carrick on Shannon, Galway, Mallow, Wexford, Longford amongst others.

The N22-N71 link does need to be prioritised. Unfortunately, there's no realistic way to plan it at present to take traffic from the Tralee side of the town to the N71 without the new bypass (save for tunnelling or going through the National Park). But it would remove traffic from the east which would be a massive help.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122564221#Comment_122564221

I didn't say "we can't afford it baloney" so why are you putting it in quotation marks? You seem to ignore what is actually said and instead make up something to suit yourself. Bringing "the recent wave of new arrivals" is very telling. Clearly there is no worthwhile discussion to be had with you.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566431#Comment_122566431

You hardly think I was trying to imply you were calling your own words baloney? Are you seriously that stuck to find fault with my post?

What is telling about me mentioning how much the recent wave of new arrivals is costing the taxpayers of Ireland?

Are you actually offended by someone mentioning that Pete?

You must never watch the news and be living a very sheltered life if that hasn't been a topic of discussion amongst your family of circle of friends.

Either way it's a very pertinent point to make to someone like yourself who has twice brought costs into the discussion as an excuse not to build a bypass.

For someone so worried about the governments ability to pay to improve our national road structure you should research how much the recent wave of new arrivals have cost and are projected to cost in the long term and how much those costs have increased in the last couple of years alone.

I'm certainly not afraid anyone will be offended by facts and figures Pete and if you are I make no apologies.

lordleitrim

Not sure if already reported here but Eamon Ryan had emailed KCC councillors advising that funding will not been be considered for this road until 2030 at least. It really is a travesty for daily users of the existing congested network!

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/minister-for-transport-receives-heavy-criticism-at-todays-special-killarney-md-meeting-398302