Is God really evil and twisted or is the Bible wrong?

RIGHTisRIGHT

According to the Bible the vast majority of people will end up in an everlasting burning Hell.
We are not talking about One Hundred years or even a million years we are talking about eternal never ending suffering beyond anything in our worst nightmares.

Burning pain total darkness chocking screaming a smell worse then 1000 sewers total terror never ending.

Now if by some act of God I am one of the saved should I turn my back on most of the people I have ever known that will be burning in Hell?

If God knows he must cast most into Hell would God creating the human race not be a statistic act of cruelty?

RIGHTisRIGHT

Manach

First, the Either/Or False dichotomy fallacy as per title does not really auger well.

Second, the concept of Hell has been debated/defined/discussed over the past two millennia so are a variety of background sources to make a foundation. Might I suggest the works of Peter Kreeft who has published on this.

Third, my own scarce reading would echo the words of the writer William Buckley who posited that if one does not deserve to go, then Hell is not one's destination. This is in the context of a merciful God of the NT.

MrPudding

RIGHTisRIGHT wrote: »

If God knows he must cast most into Hell would God creating the human race not be a statistic act of cruelty?

Yes.

MrP

uck51js9zml2yt

MrPudding wrote: »

Yes.

MrP

Thanks for your contribution...most enlightening

Speedwell

Not all Christians believe in a literal Hell. Now, the kind of Hell those people actually do tend to believe in ("separation from the presence of God" or something like that) is a stretch with a triple axel and a double backflip, but to not believe in Hell at all is unbiblical. Individual Christians and even sects believe all sorts of unbiblical things as a matter of course, though, and their walls of cognitive dissonance are purposefully soundproofed. You tend to find that decent people of any faith or none are generally repulsed by the idea of a literal Hell or even eternal punishment, even if they are otherwise devout.

To answer the actual question of whether God is evil and twisted, you have to exhaustively question the individual believer as to what they think God is like. I say "exhaustively" because the same person who piously intones that God is Perfect Love and Compassion will also be heard to say, for example, that if a child is locked in a closet and abused for ten years, it is because of "man's sinful nature" and presumably God had a reason for allowing it to happen.

As for me, I think it is clear that God reportedly knew everything that would ever happen in his creation before it happened and presumably could have set things up differently.

indioblack

RIGHTisRIGHT wrote: »

According to the Bible the vast majority of people will end up in an everlasting burning Hell.
We are not talking about One Hundred years or even a million years we are talking about eternal never ending suffering beyond anything in our worst nightmares.

Burning pain total darkness chocking screaming a smell worse then 1000 sewers total terror never ending.

Now if by some act of God I am one of the saved should I turn my back on most of the people I have ever known that will be burning in Hell?

If God knows he must cast most into Hell would God creating the human race not be a statistic act of cruelty?

A workmate of mine thought that it was the wrong way round - this is hell and the next life is heaven - interesting view.
A defender of the concept of hell told me, "We don't know if anyone is in hell". It made me wonder what the purpose of hell was - apart from scaring children. [Additional thought - don't tell children about the possibilities of going to hell, and what it entails, unless you truly believe in it].
Part of the problem is that once something as difficult as the concept of hell starts to be discussed you find that people give different explanations as to what it is and what errors will send you there. Or, further on, that you aren't sent there at all - you send yourself.
Surely for most of Christian history hell was simply and directly described - fire and brimstone etc. When I was young, the fire and brimstone had mostly gone - but you could still end up in hell by committing mortal sins as I seem to recall.

homer911

"Is God really evil and twisted or is the Bible wrong?"

I would have thought that your premise violates the charter.

Short answer: No, No.

Speedwell

homer911 wrote: »

"Is God really evil and twisted or is the Bible wrong?"

I would have thought that your premise violates the charter.

Short answer: No, No.

Long answer, please.

uck51js9zml2yt

You fail to understand why Hell was created in the first place and secondly why people will go there.
Educate yourself on these points first and we'll have something to talk about.

Speedwell

Shmuel Rancid Simpleton wrote: »

You fail to understand why Hell was created in the first place and secondly why people will go there.
Educate yourself on these points first and we'll have something to talk about.

I was a Christian for 30+ years and there seem to be more opinions on the subject than there are Christian sects. Please educate me on the opinion you yourself hold and we'll have something to talk about.

dr.fuzzenstein

The very idea of eternal damnation flies straight in the face of a merciful god and the concept of love and forgiveness.
My guess, hell was invented by the church to scare people into giving them all their money (check out Ablassbrief), just as celibacy was invented so that priests wouldn't marry and give dem wimmins a claim on church property.
In the end I don't care what any shepherd wrote down on parchment several thousand years ago whacked out on god-knows-what, eternal damnation in a test scenario that the testee is unaware of without any hope or chance of redemption is not only barbaric, it's nonsensical and therefore can only be a human concept.

uck51js9zml2yt

The mention of Hell is found in the Old Testament so not a new concept.

According to the Bible, it was created for Satan and his angels and not for mankind.
The only reason mankind will experience it is due to its continued rebellion against God.
As sin cant enter Heaven, those who've not experienced the Salvation of God will end up there at the final judgement.

People always harp on about Gods righteousness, but He's also Just and Holy.
His Justice was found in the death of His Son who removed the penalty of sin which was facing mankind. That people haven't accepted that and continue their disbelief and rebellion against Him requires Him to exercise Justice in the face of Holiness.This forbids sin & rebellion to enter Heaven which was the very reason Satan was cast out in the first place.

solodeogloria

Good evening!

Thank you for your post!

I'm actually thankful to God for the existence of hell. Our sin is so wretched and horrific that God is totally in the right to condemn people to hell for it (John 3:18, 3:36). It is when you see the full extent of our sin that you see that God is completely and utterly justified in doing so. God isn't wicked, we are utterly wretched. People who will be sent to hell will deserve to go there for their pathetic rebellion against the true God and Saviour of this world (Psalm 2).

God in His kindness has shown mercy to those who will repent and believe before it is too late (John 3:16-18). Jesus Christ died for sinners, the righteous for the unrighteous to bring us to God (1 Peter 3:18).

A god who doesn't care about evil, and a god who doesn't condemn it utterly is not a god I wish to follow. You see a god who doesn't care about evil is actually evil. A god who doesn't show his full and utter wrath against sin is not loving but utterly hateful and evil. A god who won't condemn child abuse is not a god I want to follow. A god who won't condemn sexual exploitation is not deserving of my worship. A god who won't condemn theft or lies or anything else that is wicked is not deserving of my awe. The only god who accepts all kinds of wretched sinfulness is the god of this world, he doesn't deserve my respect.

When you see sin rightly, you'll see the utter foolishness of this question.

My language is strong, and it is intentionally provocative because the seriousness of sin needs to be put centre stage in this argument.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

RIGHTisRIGHT

Shmuel Rancid Simpleton wrote: »

You fail to understand why Hell was created in the first place and secondly why people will go there.
Educate yourself on these points first and we'll have something to talk about.

Not accepting this answer,
God is all powerful so Gods every whim is right in a moral sense is what I get from this answer.
I along with the rest of the human race am a sinner.
However as much as I hate my worst enemy I could and would not burn them forever if it was in my power to do so.

Skatedude

Er, completely impossible subject.
How can anyone possibly believe that any book or beliefs written or passed on by any human to explain a being by nature that is so, so, far above our understanding could be ever considered credible is completely beyond me.

People take it as gospel and yet if you were actually a believer of God then you would have to reject all and any teachings as they were written by man, How could a true believer do otherwise?

RIGHTisRIGHT

Skatedude wrote: »

Er, completely impossible subject.
How can anyone possibly believe that any book or beliefs written or passed on by any human to explain a being by nature that is so, so, far above our understanding could be ever considered credible is completely beyond me.

People take it as gospel and yet if you were actually a believer of God then you would have to reject all and any teachings as they were written by man, How could a true believer do otherwise?

A powerful post which I am unable to say is right or wrong.
All I can say is this subject is horrific.

When I was a child I wanted to believe there was a God and death was not the end.
If their is a God who sends most people to Hell I hope there is no God and death is the end.
The lowest of the low in this world are those who inflect pain and suffering.

If the bible is to be believed one third of the angles in heaven rebelled against God.
Then God decided to create man to rub it in their faces however God in the Bible says most of mankind will end up in Hell.

Look at my posting history I have stood up for Christianity above all other believes but having a closer look and my own faith is really scary.

JCX BXC

A practising catholic shared their opinion with me before, they said something along the lines of:

"I believe god is good, and he will deliver all people to heaven. Hell is only a means to encourage people to be good and mature morally. Take the example of Ian Paisley. In his latter years he learned tolerance and acceptance. The world prepares people for heaven"

It's an interesting outlook, I myself do not believe but an outlook like that is quite believable.

Skatedude

So for example, i'm agnostic, therefore i dont believe that there is a "God" but i'm open to the fact that I may indeed be wrong, as reasonable people should be.

But i do feel that people that truly believe are more wrong as they often believe what other people have taught them to believe that by the nature of God they cant possibly have any real comprehension of what God really is? (k, too many believe's) .

True religion is admitting that you cant possibly understand it, how can you? It's accepting that there is something beyond your understanding and by that nature, all religion is justified, as long as it is not imposed on others. It has to be accepted, not forced.

uck51js9zml2yt

RIGHTisRIGHT wrote: »

Not accepting this answer,
God is all powerful so Gods every whim is right in a moral sense is what I get from this answer.
I along with the rest of the human race am a sinner.
However as much as I hate my worst enemy I could and would not burn them forever if it was in my power to do so.

You never read my second post:)

Benny_Cake

Carnacalla wrote: »

A practising catholic shared their opinion with me before, they said something along the lines of:

"I believe god is good, and he will deliver all people to heaven. Hell is only a means to encourage people to be good and mature morally. Take the example of Ian Paisley. In his latter years he learned tolerance and acceptance. The world prepares people for heaven".

Not sure that Paisley became more tolerant!

I did read something by a Catholic archbishop (Cormac Murphy-O'Connor) once where he said that while hell exists, it was perfectly acceptable to hope it was empty. There have been different views on this subject throughout church history, with annihilationism and universalism being minority positions. The "sinners in the hands of an angry God" view is not the only opinion.

OU812

I normally never post on these types of threads, but I'd had a couple of beers & someone (not here) has annoyed me, so here goes...

This is my personal belief & I realise that others hold other beliefs & they are entitled to them, that said...

There is no God. There is no hell. I spent years struggling through beliefs, being brought up as a catholic & worrying about stuff all the time, over time, I came to the realisation that there was no such thing as hell, it was a preposterous belief that something such as this could exist. I spoke with several priests about it as it was very troubling for me. They all told me the same thing... It's a metaphor, it doesn't really exist...

Ironically, it was because they helped me to cease to believe in a hell, that I then ceased to believe in a heaven or a God. Another preposterous belief... everything bad that happens to good people... it's "all a part of God's plan", like God's got a plan. You know what, if there is a God, then he's got a <snip> load of explaining to do.

Once I'd stopped believing and I have to say fearing the decisions of a mythological invisible being, I started to enjoy life.

Worrying about something like hell or being judged represses you, decays your very core. Stop worrying about what someone who doesn't exists thinks about you & lead a good life.

RIGHTisRIGHT

Shmuel Rancid Simpleton wrote: »

You never read my second post:)

Going back to read it now.:)
Edit I have read it now however punishment forever?

endacl

What's a 'statistic' act of cruelty? An eternity working out ever changing random variables?

Skatedude

OU812 wrote: »

I normally never post on these types of threads, but I'd had a couple of beers & someone (not here) has annoyed me, so here goes...

This is my personal belief & I realise that others hold other beliefs & they are entitled to them, that said...

There is no God. There is no hell. I spent years struggling through beliefs, being brought up as a catholic & worrying about stuff all the time, over time, I came to the realisation that there was no such thing as hell, it was a preposterous belief that something such as this could exist. I spoke with several priests about it as it was very troubling for me. They all told me the same thing... It's a metaphor, it doesn't really exist...

Ironically, it was because they helped me to cease to believe in a hell, that I then ceased to believe in a heaven or a God. Another preposterous belief... everything bad that happens to good people... it's "all a part of God's plan", like God's got a plan. You know what, if there is a God, then he's got a <snip> load of explaining to do.

Once I'd stopped believing and I have to say fearing the decisions of a mythological invisible being, I started to enjoy life.

Worrying about something like hell or being judged represses you, decays your very core. Stop worrying about what someone who doesn't exists thinks about you & lead a good life.

There is hell and there is heaven, but it's here on earth and it's what we make of it. and no deity has anything to do with it.( sounds like raj form big bang theory)

So, agnostic alcoholic like the the rest of us that are poking fun at the believers at 1:30 am?

K,I believe in free belief, just as long as its free and not pushed. Time for me to go go bed and sleep it off. Later dudes.(still sounds like raj)

solodeogloria

Skatedude wrote: »

There is hell and there is heaven, but it's here on earth and it's what we make of it. and no deity has anything to do with it.( sounds like raj form big bang theory)

So, agnostic alcoholic like the the rest of us that are poking fun at the believers at 1:30 am?

K,I believe in free belief, just as long as its free and not pushed. Time for me to go go bed and sleep it off. Later dudes.(still sounds like raj)

Good morning!

Can I ask what's the Biblical basis for this view?

Although it is very nice to say "I like to think of God as ..." or "I like to think of hell as ..." and so on. We don't have the authority to declare who God is when he has spoken about himself.

If there was a child at school who wrote something that was untrue about another child. Let's call him Oscar. Oscar would be perfectly entitled to say that was wrong and that he gets to determine who he is.

The same is true of God. It doesn't matter if we say "I like to think of God as ...". What matters is what God has already declared about Himself.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

xz

You know the way were told about Santa and the Easter bunny, and we tell our own kids......Hell is another "lie".....

uck51js9zml2yt

RIGHTisRIGHT wrote: »

Going back to read it now.:)
Edit I have read it now however punishment forever?

What do you think should happen? We go to 'purgatory',serve our,sentence and then get to heaven ?

Doesnt work like that.
In this life we have the opportunity to believe in God or reject Him.
Sin &rebellion cant enter Heaven,so we exclude ourselves.
Why should people have 'a chance' after death when it was in this sphere that God made it possible to know Eternal Life by sending His Son to die and bear the punishment for sin.
People are on here saying they don't believe in God, fine. But why then do you think He's unjust and unfair when He supposedly doesn't exist?
You're getting very worked up over something that's meant not to exist:)

As for me. I believed 30 years ago and am more sure now then ever, but its not my job to convince you. I testify of that which I know to be true.

solodeogloria

Shmuel Rancid Simpleton wrote: »

What do you think should happen? We go to 'purgatory',serve our,sentence and then get to heaven ?

Doesnt work like that.
In this life we have the opportunity to believe in God or reject Him.
Sin &rebellion cant enter Heaven,so we exclude ourselves.
Why should people have 'a chance' after death when it was in this sphere that God made it possible to know Eternal Life by sending His Son to die and bear the punishment for sin.
People are on here saying they don't believe in God, fine. But why then do you think He's unjust and unfair when He supposedly doesn't exist?
You're getting very worked up over something that's meant not to exist:)

As for me. I believed 30 years ago and am more sure now then ever, but its not my job to convince you. I testify of that which I know to be true.

Good morning!

Thank you for this post brother. The problem is we need a heart transplant (Ezekiel 36). If you don't understand the magnitude of the wretched sin that exists within then you won't understand the cross of Christ. If you understand how wretched sin is and how much it corrupts everything you will run to the Son pleading for mercy. If we make excuses for ourselves we won't. But God won't be fooled on the last day.

We seek and demand justice for wrongdoing in our world and this is right. Why is it wrong all of a sudden when God demands what is right of us? Or is it because we're too proud to acknowledge that we are sinners?

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ for His underserved grace,
solodeogloria

Speedwell

Shmuel Rancid Simpleton wrote: »

What do you think should happen? We go to 'purgatory',serve our,sentence and then get to heaven ?

Doesnt work like that.
In this life we have the opportunity to believe in God or reject Him.

No, we do not always have this opportunity. Many people have lived and died without such an opportunity. Many people have lived and died believing they believed in God when they were really misled. CS Lewis addressed this issue by appealing to pagan mythology. There is a verse in the Bible that says that God reveals himself through nature, but believing in nature is not the same as "belief in God". No real consensus exists on this issue and there is no real Biblical support for the idea that every person has this chance anyway. Compare Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law...", and John 3:18, "...but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". The Bible appears to state that some people do not have the chance to hear the Name, and that furthermore, those people are "lost". Otherwise what would be the point of "saving" people who have never heard of Jesus by telling them about him?

Sin &rebellion cant enter Heaven,so we exclude ourselves.

I am given to understand that God created the entire cosmos knowing in advance every movement of every atom until the end of time, and that everything happens according to his perfect will. That means that God necessarily intended that there be a Hell and that certain people should suffer in it... in fact that was his design all along.

Why should people have 'a chance' after death when it was in this sphere that God made it possible to know Eternal Life by sending His Son to die and bear the punishment for sin.

So God designed a system that condemns people he designed to a Hell he designed in ways he ordained for purposes of his own, and then we give him credit for sacrificing part of himself to himself ostensibly to persuade himself not to do something that he knew all along he wasn't going to do anyway? Oh kay.

People are on here saying they don't believe in God, fine.

But the whole story's so convincing! :rolleyes:

But why then do you think He's unjust and unfair when He supposedly doesn't exist?
You're getting very worked up over something that's meant not to exist:)

Your story, not ours. Your character is as unjust and unfair as any other fictional character. Unfortunately we have to live with a culture and official policy that takes for granted that your story is a correct representation of reality.

As for me. I believed 30 years ago and am more sure now then ever, but its not my job to convince you. I testify of that which I know to be true.

Bully for you, true believer.

Delirium

MOD NOTE

xz wrote: »

You know the way were told about Santa and the Easter bunny, and we tell our own kids......Hell is another "lie".....

Please remember you are posting in the Christianity forum and as such that is not an appropriate way to refer to Christian beliefs.

homer911 wrote: »

"Is God really evil and twisted or is the Bible wrong?"

I would have thought that your premise violates the charter.

Short answer: No, No.

If you have a problem with a post, please report it. The mods will decide what does (or does not) breach the charter.

A general note to everyone, if posters wish to discuss atheism or the existence of God please avail yourselves of the atheism/existence of God superthread.

Thanks for your attention.

Speedwell

Delirium wrote: »

MOD NOTE

Please remember you are posting in the Christianity forum and as such that is not an appropriate to refer to Christian beliefs.

Thanks, Delirium. I just wanted to mention in response that "Christian beliefs" are, in my experience, diverse on the issue of Hell.

Several major and minor Christian sects do not believe in Hell at all, or define it in a way that does not include an existence after death. They include (among others) the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christadelphians, and even (quite lately) the Church of England, according to a doctrinal report published a decade ago. These sects believe in something called "annihilationism", the doctrine that people who are not "saved" will "pass into non-existence" rather than being condemned to a Hell of eternal torment. They, too, would likely characterize such a Hell as a "lie".

I think it's clear that it is possible to be a devout, professing Christian without the necessity to believe that God is a monster who designed a place of eternal suffering to which he intended from the beginning to send certain of his created beings.

Edit: As an ex-Christian who is a secular Jew, I am aware from whence the original doctrine of Hell arose. It was in Judaism, of course, probably influenced by contemporary religions from Asia, and was passed on to its sect Christianity from its inception. This fact may or may not have something to do with why certain Christian groups repudiated it. I'm not saying anything further on that score since I have not studied it in depth.

antiskeptic

Speedwell wrote: »

I think it's clear that it is possible to be a devout, professing Christian without the necessity to believe that God is a monster who designed a place of eternal suffering to which he intended from the beginning to send certain of his created beings.

I think the idea isn't that God sends them there as they send them there. If the question, ultimately, is what eternity do you want: that which is utterly righteous or it's opposite then that is what you will get.

The question is posed to the heart (let's say, the whole of man) rather than those bits of him which come in and out of fashion. And the heart will answer - in that, there is no freewill. Nor is there a pick n mix option where you get the kind of environment that suits your book. Totally pure, clean and righteous or it's opposite. Hellish.

I myself don't suppose elevated temperatures in Hell but can suppose that's about the best way to describe the utter lack of goodness.

Edit: As an ex-Christian who is a secular Jew, I am aware from whence the original doctrine of Hell arose. It was in Judaism, of course, probably influenced by contemporary religions from Asia, and was passed on to its sect Christianity from its inception.

I think the notion is that Christianity is less a sect and more a culmination. Judaism centred on the Law and adherance to same (parallels with Roman Catholicism, not least, its churches replicating the OT layout of a temple, intercessors between God and man etc.). Christianity peels back this mistaken layer and reveals the actuality of what God intended. Fulfillment of the law by God, not man.

ABC101

I don't understand some peoples hang up with the concept of Hell.

Some of the people I have worked with .....going to Hell for eternity would be too good for them.

I have no qualms at all with wicked evil people going to a wicked evil place. They should be able to fit right in.

solodeogloria

ABC101 wrote: »

I don't understand some peoples hang up with the concept of Hell.

Some of the people I have worked with .....going to Hell for eternity would be too good for them.

I have no qualms at all with wicked evil people going to a wicked evil place. They should be able to fit right in.

Good morning!

We also need to consider that we all deserve to go there. I'm not morally superior to an atheist and I'm not more righteous than an atheist. The Bible doesn't teach that we are self righteous but rather only through the blood of Jesus righteous.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

xz

Delirium wrote:

Please remember you are posting in the Christianity forum and as such that is not an appropriate way to refer to Christian beliefs.

That statement right there about my post, is what's wrong, you can post here, but only if it concurs with what we say, is the message I got from that, home truths are not allowed

Speedwell

xz wrote: »

That statement right there about my post, is what's wrong, you can post here, but only if it concurs with what we say, is the message I got from that, home truths are not allowed

Eh, don't get excited about it, the very phrase "Christian beliefs" is a paper tiger. The words of Walt Whitman apply here: "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." There's no need, in this case, to call Christianity itself a lie in order to point out problems with a problematical subject.

The fact is that an uncritical understanding of the dogma and the scriptures is at bottom of a lot of error and heresy in Christianity today. The doctrine of Hell itself turns out to be a minority view, promulgated in the early Church by the sect at Rome (predating the Catholic Church per se) and by no other branches of the religion, which actually preached the doctrine of conditionalism or annihilationism, as I mentioned a few posts ago. Nobody will really know why the Christian church fastened on to a doctrine that, far from glorifying God, made him out to be a pagan fire god who created a hell for his demiurge Satan to rule over. This concept cannot be supported by Scripture. The fire was created for Satan to perish in, not to rule. It is intended for the "refinement" and rehabilitation of the unrighteous for a "long time", not "eternal torment". The idea that anyone should be lost for eternity flies in the face of the words of Jesus himself, who said he came to save ALL men, and plainly relies on an erroneous interpretation of the Greek and Hebrew.

Of course, I'm not a Christian and I don't believe a word of any of this, but it would be nice to finally get the story straight so believers didn't have to live in the very real torment and fear of an unnecessarily harsh (I'll be charitable and call it a) mistake. It would be amazing if Christians could be freed once and for all from the pathology and heresy of the doctrine of eternal torment, but psychological abuse of that nature is very hard to recover from.

Speedwell

antiskeptic wrote: »

I think the idea isn't that God sends them there as they send them there. If the question, ultimately, is what eternity do you want: that which is utterly righteous or it's opposite then that is what you will get.

The question is posed to the heart (let's say, the whole of man) rather than those bits of him which come in and out of fashion. And the heart will answer - in that, there is no freewill. Nor is there a pick n mix option where you get the kind of environment that suits your book. Totally pure, clean and righteous or it's opposite. Hellish.

I myself don't suppose elevated temperatures in Hell but can suppose that's about the best way to describe the utter lack of goodness.

Please make up your mind whether Hell is an external "environment" or an internal state of being. In the meantime, the silly idea that atheists are people who seek to abdicate their status as decent human beings leads Christians into sad and violent error; please don't show yourself to be quite so fond of it.

I think the notion is that Christianity is less a sect and more a culmination.

Seminarians in their first or second year of training already know better than to say something like this to people who know better. The history of the Church is well attested.

solodeogloria

xz wrote: »

That statement right there about my post, is what's wrong, you can post here, but only if it concurs with what we say, is the message I got from that, home truths are not allowed

Good morning all!

I remember Speedwell and I and some others were discussing tone and how we speak to one another on another thread. We had a fruitful conversation. It was about how Christians were posting uncharitably in this forum at the time. People on the internet often forget there is someone else behind the keyboard.

Did you ever think you could post the same home truth in a different way? Perhaps in a way that doesn't insult the intelligence of Christians. I'm trying hard to recognise this in respect to my posts to atheists. The Bible says my speech and in this case my posts should be used for building others up not tearing them down (Ephesians 4:29). I don't doubt that you can do this from a secular vantage point. Tell me the same home truth in a way that builds me up and respects me for who I am and at this present time I am a Christian.

Our posts whether we like it or not convey our respect for other people. Whether we like it or not telling Christians that their faith in God is like Santa or the Easter Bunny doesn't convey any respect to us at all. You can argue that my faith is misplaced in a different way that builds us up together in respect and compassion.

Speedwell will agree with me.

To the topic. I clearly believe hell is Biblical and God is loving. Let's talk!

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Speedwell

solodeogloria wrote: »

Speedwell will agree with me.

I do indeed agree. I've been openly angry on this thread, and shown my anger, but reasonable anger, though somewhat irritating (I know), is not the same as openly and pointlessly antagonizing people by insulting them. After all, these are by and large decent and even excellent people trying to preserve a system that they are persuaded to be good, holy, and perfect, even if we outside that system want to tear our hair out about it sometimes. Cheers.

Delirium

MOD NOTE

xz wrote: »

That statement right there about my post, is what's wrong, you can post here, but only if it concurs with what we say, is the message I got from that, home truths are not allowed

Firstly, arguing with a mod instruction is against the charter.

In future take it to PM if you wish to question the instruction.

Secondly, as another poster has already explained, it's about respecting other peoples faith.

solodeogloria wrote: »

Our posts whether we like it or not convey our respect for other people. Whether we like it or not telling Christians that their faith in God is like Santa or the Easter Bunny doesn't convey any respect to us at all. You can argue that my faith is misplaced in a different way that builds us up together in respect and compassion.

You can disagree with it, just don't belittle or mock it.

Now back on topic please.

Thanks for your attention.

xz

My reference was to Hell , I never once, until now mentioned God

antiskeptic

Speedwell wrote: »

Please make up your mind whether Hell is an external "environment" or an internal state of being.

An environment shared with others of like choice, I'm supposing

In the meantime, the silly idea that atheists are people who seek to abdicate their status as decent human beings leads Christians into sad and violent error; please don't show yourself to be quite so fond of it.

I'm not sure what this means

Seminarians in their first or second year of training already know better than to say something like this to people who know better. The history of the Church is well attested.

Not sure what this means either. Quite what the "training" of a seminarian adds to the correctness of the view they hold is open to discussion, surely

xz

Is God really evil and twisted, or is the Bible wrong.........


Actually the Bible gives plenty of examples of a vengeful or I could say, easily displeased God, all throughout the Old Testament, so, exactly how is the Bible wrong?

ABC101

xz wrote: »

Is God really evil and twisted, or is the Bible wrong.........


Actually the Bible gives plenty of examples of a vengeful or I could say, easily displeased God, all throughout the Old Testament, so, exactly how is the Bible wrong?

Well if God is a vengeful entity, he could have given humanity a planet less bountiful than Earth, perhaps Mars. Much colder and nasty radiation thrown in.

I think planet Earth is a wonderful place, very beautiful and very interesting. However human greed is really messing the place up.

xz

ABC101 wrote:

Well if God is a vengeful entity, he could have given humanity a planet less bountiful than Earth, perhaps Mars. Much colder and nasty radiation thrown in.

ABC101 wrote:

I think planet Earth is a wonderful place, very beautiful and very interesting. However human greed is really messing the place up.

I don't disagree with you, but, what's your point? I'll expand on my previous post..... The Great Flood, how many millions died?, The Passover, how many babies died? Why, after freeing His people from Egypt, did they have to wander for 40 years just a few examples, in the Bible of my use of the word "vengeful", maybe not the best use of the word, but these examples show that He certainly is displeased easily

solodeogloria

xz wrote: »

I don't disagree with you, but, what's your point? I'll expand on my previous post..... The Great Flood, how many millions died?, The Passover, how many babies died? Why, after freeing His people from Egypt, did they have to wander for 40 years just a few examples, in the Bible of my use of the word "vengeful", maybe not the best use of the word, but these examples show that He certainly is displeased easily

Good morning!

God is a judge and yes He has the authority to judge others for their rebellion against Him in this life and in the next.

I personally have no qualms if an atheist disputes God's character because they have not understood the weight of their sin and their desperate need of rescue.

I know that my God is good and it is primarily in Jesus' saving death and resurrection that I see that goodness.

Hell and judgement are completely justified in my view and my previous posts explain why.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

xz

None of that is an answer to the Title of this thread, at least I have offered an answer to the thread title.

The weight of my sin? Has nothing to do with the question being asked by the OP in the Title, going by that logic,just being born is a sin

as a footnote, I haven't yet claimed to be an Atheist, in any of my posts, you have made an assumption based on the contents of my posts.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Read my previous posts. My response is that God is neither evil or twisted. The problem is that too often we are.

Feel free to read the whole thread and reply to whatever points I've made so far.

I don't mind what others think the reality is that God has demonstrated His goodness to us through His Son Jesus.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

xz

That is all New Testament, I fail to see God showing His goodness to us in the Old Testament, which is also a part of the Bible and your beliefs, you can't just choose parts of the book that appeal to you, I get that Christianity is a celebration of Jesus, and that is all in the New Testament, but the book as a whole contains two Testaments, and in the first of those, it's easy to describe God as a spoiled child not happy with his ant farm

solodeogloria

xz wrote: »

That is all New Testament, I fail to see God showing His goodness to us in the Old Testament, which is also a part of the Bible and your beliefs, you can't just choose parts of the book that appeal to you, I get that Christianity is a celebration of Jesus, and that is all in the New Testament, but the book as a whole contains two Testaments, and in the first of those, it's easy to describe God as a spoiled child not happy with his ant farm

Good afternoon!

The Old Testament shows us the nature of God's character to God's people Israel through the covenants declared to Abraham and Moses and David which ultimately are all fulfilled in Jesus.

I don't believe there are two separate gods in the Bible but rather one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As a result I think we see God's justice but also His mercy and grace throughout the whole Bible.

I'm a Christian and I am a Christian because of what I read of God's character in the whole Bible. I am reading through the whole Bible again this year for the fourth time since I decided for myself to follow Jesus. I assure you that you will not surprise me.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria