Teacher/Government pay & CP hour talks etc

deiseindublin

Does anybody know what is actually going on at the moment? Are all PS workers that rejected LR negotiating together or are Education sector together or each union for themselves etc?

I'm looking up TUI & ASTI website and FB pages every day but there's no information out there.

Getting really pissed off and have a horrible feeling they'll get us to re-vote on an eclectic mix (bag of ****) of issues together.

There are only 6 weeks before the end of term and whatever ballot takes place has to happen in May.

Will there even be an agreement without a government?

joebloggs32

deiseindublin wrote: »

Does anybody know what is actually going on at the moment? Are all PS workers that rejected LR negotiating together or are Education sector together or each union for themselves etc?

I'm looking up TUI & ASTI website and FB pages every day but there's no information out there.

Getting really pissed off and have a horrible feeling they'll get us to re-vote on an eclectic mix (bag of ****) of issues together.

There are only 6 weeks before the end of term and whatever ballot takes place has to happen in May.

Will there even be an agreement without a government?

From what I could gather at the TUI conference that's the gist of it.

Sounded like they were in negotiations with the department of education only. They promised to bring it to the members in May. It seems whatever comes out of it will cover a number of different issues

mirrorwall14

Has anyone else got their plan a and plan b yearly timetable done? One with the 33hrs and one without

The difference is just incredible. I'm on our committee for the hours and there is nothing more likely to have teachers keep voting no to any agreement involving them than looking at that timetable!

deiseindublin

How so mirrowwall? We don't have a timetabled half day so the 33 hours doesn't have any effect on timetable iykwim. I'm really hoping they don't want us to pencil in 2 full days CP in late Aug though. Shouldn't be planning for it until we see if it's actually there or not.

Icsics

There's a CEC meeting 2mw to word the ballot on CP hrs & decide on postal v school ballot.

mirrorwall14

deiseindublin wrote: »

How so mirrowwall? We don't have a timetabled half day so the 33 hours doesn't have any effect on timetable iykwim. I'm really hoping they don't want us to pencil in 2 full days CP in late Aug though. Shouldn't be planning for it until we see if it's actually there or not.

I mean the yearly planner like when and how long the meetings are after school making up the croke park hours are. One time table is three parent teacher meetings and three half in half out staff meetings. The other has a meeting/event pretty much every week

deiseindublin

Oh, ok, we're pretty much in the 1 hour a week category, with the odd week off for good behaviour if we've a longer one on an open night/awards night etc.

deiseindublin

Icsics wrote: »

There's a CEC meeting 2mw to word the ballot on CP hrs & decide on postal v school ballot.

Well, that's concrete anyway!

For some reason the media seem obsessed with ballot turnouts all of a sudden. Makes me laugh when I hear politicians talking about low turn outs and how close NO votes were to the 50% cut off. Doesn't seem to bother them on election day or if they get in on the final count!

solerina

We had a staff meeting last week and the P is planning CP hours as if nothing will stop them going ahead, he has planned Aug 23 + 24th as CP....no one was very impressed and a few pointed out that CP may not even exist by then..they were ignored !!
Please God give us a ballot so that we can get rid of those pointless hours !!
I hope anyway.

Mirrorwall, we don't have a committee, our P decides and that's it, tough if you don't like it.

mirrorwall14

I thought there has to be a committee?!

mirrorwall14

There has to be staff agreement. Our staff agreed that a full staff trying to decide every small detail was crazy so we have a small committee who meet with principal. Then they go away and talk to staff for a week or so and another meeting is held.
The proposed timetable arising from that is put to staff.

Icsics

ASTI school based ballot going ahead re CP hrs

deiseindublin

Jesus, I wish we'd hear some titbit of feedback from the TUI.

There is literally NOTHING on their website since the conference.

TheDriver

Isn't it better that a Principal plans the CP hours while staff are there instead of in Aug when no one else is there to discuss. If there is a vote to get rid of them then that TT is scraped but I think its right to have a plan in place at this stage. We have had situations before where we all thought they were gone (I think 3 years ago) and suddenly no change. No principal is going to "make" a cp hours timetable go ahead if its off the table come Sept.

deiseindublin

Fair enough as long as the CP hours aren't timetabled to be on for 2 or so full days at the end of August. I don't think it's unreasonable at this stage to be able to plan for holidays and flying home dates so we do need to know what the start back date is, and it shouldn't start with CP hours that may or may not happen.

TheDriver

Fair point but then staff could be quite aggrieved having to do the hours during the year to make them up? Catch 22.
At this stage, most of my staff have flights booked

deiseindublin

In fairness, any teacher I know is aware that it'll be either 33 or 0 hours so can't see they'll be aggrieved.

It's a huge bug bear of mine that the August starting date is a mystery to staff for so long. I don't see why August start dates can't be planned years in advance when the SSY is published by DES. Things can't get any more black and white than a calendar with dates set.

TheDriver

Because CP hours are decided at school level and some schools like to open gradually over a week

deiseindublin

But apart from CP hours, calendars should be set.

TheDriver

Indeed they should be but some schools already don't adhere to the current schedule never mind adding to it e.g. The schools that closed on 6th Jan this year.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

But apart from CP hours, calendars should be set.

The very latest you can start back and get in 167 days is 29 August. If you have religious observances or other days you have to push back into the previous week with or without Croke Park so in a sense it is fixed.

The safest bet is to plan them and then see what happens imo. There will still need to be meetings and planning etc. m58/04 still allows for that, we always did a bit of subject planning in our own time - i think the CP hours will actually end up making a balls of that because niw everything that happens has to have a time from the hours alloted to it. We were doing most of the hours anyway, why we had to do them all at the same time was beyond me.

mirrorwall14

The croke park hours are the biggest pain in the neck. The work always got done anyways. Now things have just expanded or got added to the schedule or you have to sit through ridiculous training or speakers making up hours. I absolutely despise them and I will not vote for any agreement involving them.

Of all of the things imposed by FEMPI or the 'agreements' that were forced on us, these rankle the most, especially because of the way they were implemented and the impact they have on extra curricular and our own planning which of course was not deemed worthy of being permissible because the untrustworthy teachers must sit down at the same time in case they don't do the work. No other area of the public service had this imposed. And the ONLY reason was because they knew they couldn't add another teaching hour as we are already well above the yearly average on contact hours. God forbid they would actually acknowledge that we do plenty of work outside of our teaching time. They could easily have said, every school must have a planning day where teachers stay in school to prepare their classes for one extra hour a week or teach extra curricular during that period but no we had to be punished and they were expressly forbidden to be contact hours. Instead extracurricular had to be cancelled for them.

deiseindublin

I can see them rolling CP hours into a ballot along with new salary scales mirrorwall and I'll be really conflicted about what to do if that's what's on the ballot.

I REALLY DON'T WANT TO DO CP hours but it's a bind when I see younger colleagues doing the same job as me for less. I suppose that's what DES will be depending on.

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

I can see them rolling CP hours into a ballot along with new salary scales mirrorwall and I'll be really conflicted about what to do if that's what's on the ballot.

I REALLY DON'T WANT TO DO CP hours but it's a bind when I see younger colleagues doing the same job as me for less. I suppose that's what DES will be depending on.

there is a school based ballot on CP hours next month
why would the 2 issues be part of one vote ?
won't happen and isn't happening as far as I can tell

deiseindublin

I'm TUI, can see them pulling a 1-size fits all medley ballot out out of the bag in May. Hopefully I'm just being a pessimist though.

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm TUI, can see them pulling a 1-size fits all medley ballot out out of the bag in May. Hopefully I'm just being a pessimist though.

oh OK sorry
and yes they could
and then where will that leave us all!!

Icsics

ASTI ballot on CP hrs is stand alone. No doubt there'll be plenty threats coming from the DES in the run up eg not getting S&S etc

TheDriver

Pay will always come around in some form or another, terms and conditions of employment are much harder fought.

mirrorwall14

Icsics wrote: »

ASTI ballot on CP hrs is stand alone. No doubt there'll be plenty threats coming from the DES in the run up eg not getting S&S etc

We were never going to get that anyways lets be honest. It was always going to be used as an extra leverage for other productivity measures which is why it drove me nuts that we voted in the haddington road agreement.

I would agree that terms and conditions are far far more difficult to get back than pay. Conditions also muddy the waters and should not come into pay talks if at all possible

man_no_plan

I think that ASTI are being a bit hasty with their ballot, after all the Haddington Road agreement is still in force for now.

Is it not the case that if expires then you don't do the hours as they are part of the agreement? Is a ballot needed at all?

If the payment of s&s isnt given then there should be a separate ballot and we should hit the roadside for as long as we need to.

Let the DES break the agreement. While fempi may affect pay the expiration of the HR agreement should see the end of the hours. FEMPI is on its last legs to so maybe we could ride it out.

km79

man_no_plan wrote: »

I think that ASTI are being a bit hasty with their ballot, after all the Haddington Road agreement is still in force for now.

Is it not the case that if expires then you don't do the hours as they are part of the agreement? Is a ballot needed at all?

If the payment of s&s isnt given then there should be a separate ballot and we should hit the roadside for as long as we need to.

Let the DES break the agreement. While fempi may affect pay the expiration of the HR agreement should see the end of the hours. FEMPI is on its last legs to so maybe we could ride it out.

HRA ends in June
school year ends in June
calendars need to be done by then
I'm actually suprised and very pleased they have had the foresight to get the ballot and results sorted before we break up for the summer
Vote no to them and that should be that then . done and dusted and we can really enjoy the summer !

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

HRA ends in June
school year ends in June
calendars need to be done by then
I'm actually suprised and very pleased they have had the foresight to get the ballot and results sorted before we break up for the summer
Vote no to them and that should be that then . done and dusted and we can really enjoy the summer !

Aye, but if it runs out then it runs out, no vote needed. Just plan timetable on the assumption that CP is gone! No?
(not so easy for Tui or mixed schools though!)

mirrorwall14

I honestly wasn't paying that much attention at the time but apparently the last time there was discussion over croke park hours schools ended up having to complete the 33hrs in less than a year. The school I'm in now apparently ran a 5hr Croke park day at the end of the school year as a consequence. Thats mainly why we have two schedules drawn up. At least if the union fails then we can facilitate a quick change over and avoid a similar situation

deiseindublin

Still nothing on ASTI or TUI site about the talks.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

Still nothing on ASTI or TUI site about the talks.

I reckon they're working overtime in negotiations. Maybe the whole lot will be wrapped up together CP/LR/HR/JC/PAyscales. At this stage I reckon the new Junior cert is coming in in some shape or form (probably do the assessment but send home a report as opposed to adding it on to the state exam for certification). Whatever about english (Sorryy!!) having a delay for Science will put the whole 'Smart Economy' at risk don't ya know.

So who are they negotiating with anyway?.... the minister or the dept? Does it really matter what minister we have as invariably it's the 'government for life' who make all the decisions!

Jamfa

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I reckon they're working overtime in negotiations. Maybe the whole lot will be wrapped up together CP/LR/HR/JC/PAyscales. At this stage I reckon the new Junior cert is coming in in some shape or form (probably do the assessment but send home a report as opposed to adding it on to the state exam for certification). Whatever about english (Sorryy!!) having a delay for Science will put the whole 'Smart Economy' at risk don't ya know.

So who are they negotiating with anyway?.... the minister or the dept? Does it really matter what minister we have as invariably it's the 'government for life' who make all the decisions!

The Minister conceded that last year and the classroom-based assessments are reported separately to the state exam. There is no combination of marks but the results appear in the JCPA but are separate results. Students will still receive their stand alone Junior SEC results in the Sept after 3rd year.
It's hard to see how the DES could concede any further & still maintain the junior cycle is being reformed.

deiseindublin

Jamfa wrote: »

It's hard to see how the DES could concede any further & still maintain the junior cycle is being reformed.

Resources & time both need to be looked at.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

Resources & time both need to be looked at.

40 mins per week professional time and the availability of hours for a coordinator of jc is a considerable amiuntvof resources surely?

deiseindublin

40 mins isn't a lot of time, especially as there will be a 2 hour meeting per subject per year (2 & 3). If you teach Maths, Science and CSPE that's potentially 2 hours x 3 subjects x 2 years (2nd & 3rd) = 12 hours gone out of the 22, so now you've only 10 hours left to set the assessments and do the admis, so 100 mins each per class per year!

Better yet it looks like these 2 hour meetings will have to be after 4pm/last class as they are department wide meetings. I don't know of any Maths or Science department where they would collectively end up with the same 2 hour block off during the day. I've no interest in a 40 min break mid morning once a week and then have the prospect of 6 x 6pm finishes instead.

Also, resources/money will be needed to set up new subjects.

Jamfa

deiseindublin wrote: »

40 mins isn't a lot of time, especially as there will be a 2 hour meeting per subject per year (2 & 3). If you teach Maths, Science and CSPE that's potentially 2 hours x 3 subjects x 2 years (2nd & 3rd) = 12 hours gone out of the 22, so now you've only 10 hours left to set the assessments and do the admis, so 100 mins each per class per year!

Better yet it looks like these 2 hour meetings will have to be after 4pm/last class as they are department wide meetings. I don't know of any Maths or Science department where they would collectively end up with the same 2 hour block off during the day. I've no interest in a 40 min break mid morning once a week and then have the prospect of 6 x 6pm finishes instead.

Also, resources/money will be needed to set up new subjects.

That does sound like a worst case scenario where you have 3 different subjects in 2nd & 3rd year every year. The DES conceded to allocate 22 hours per year which is far better than what was originally proposed or not even offered. Prep for the assessments & admin are to replace traditional forms of school assessment such as house exams so therefore shouldn't be seen as extra. As each new subject specification becomes established there shouldn't be much need for planning etc.
The problem this year in ASTI schools like my own is there has been no inservice & English teachers have missed out on school workshops & the opportunity to each have 10 hours substituted cover to plan & prepare. Science & Business teachers have also not attended CPD & no school planning for junior cycle has happened.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

40 mins isn't a lot of time, especially as there will be a 2 hour meeting per subject per year (2 & 3). If you teach Maths, Science and CSPE that's potentially 2 hours x 3 subjects x 2 years (2nd & 3rd) = 12 hours gone out of the 22, so now you've only 10 hours left to set the assessments and do the admis, so 100 mins each per class per year!

Better yet it looks like these 2 hour meetings will have to be after 4pm/last class as they are department wide meetings. I don't know of any Maths or Science department where they would collectively end up with the same 2 hour block off during the day. I've no interest in a 40 min break mid morning once a week and then have the prospect of 6 x 6pm finishes instead.

Also, resources/money will be needed to set up new subjects.

I completely agree regarding the timetabling of meetings and so on and the practical effect of having a random free class.

Initially I thought it was madness as it was impractical but getting the department to recognise the idea of professional time is very significant. One of the great achievements of the tui in the past was having the contract reduced from 23 to 22 hours. Its a weeks less teaching in the year.

As for resources in money terms for equipment etc of course that will need to come.

The fact is that we are looking at a circular letter implenting new curricula, they are the rules now whether we like it or not.

deiseindublin

Just because something is far better than was originally proposed doesn't mean that it's now acceptable.

I don't care about the hours much personally but I'M NOT INTERESTED in being there until 6pm more days. End of.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

Just because something is far better than was originally proposed doesn't mean that it's now acceptable.

I don't care about the hours much personally but I'M NOT INTERESTED in being there until 6pm more days. End of.

Just be careful if your school starts asking if teachers would like an 'earlier start'. The initial teaser will be " oh you'll get to finish earlier". I was talking to a teacher in the UK and they said that's how it started. Now it's meetings every morning (which is basically requests for paperwork to be handed in). Then it's more meetings and paperwork when kids have gone home writing up 'learning outcomes' for each student.

Jamfa

deiseindublin wrote: »

Just because something is far better than was originally proposed doesn't mean that it's now acceptable.

I don't care about the hours much personally but I'M NOT INTERESTED in being there until 6pm more days. End of.

Do you have a half day? You could always do the SLAR meeting before school!

byhookorbycrook

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Just be careful if your school starts asking if teachers would like an 'earlier start'. The initial teaser will be " oh you'll get to finish earlier". I was talking to a teacher in the UK and they said that's how it started. Now it's meetings every morning (which is basically requests for paperwork to be handed in). Then it's more meetings and paperwork when kids have gone home writing up 'learning outcomes' for each student.

The new language curriculum in primary is only supposed to be monitored by doing up outcomes for a few pupils, so not at all an issue, right??

Just like how how IEPs were not to be done until we had resources and training. Now they are being insisted upon.

We were told standard tests would only have to be reported to parents, suddenly it was also to the DES but we were assured that it was only for statistics. Now the DES will use those results to remove supports from schools.

deiseindublin

Jamfa wrote: »

Do you have a half day? You could always do the SLAR meeting before school!

No, would be very straightforward if we did.

Only example given on ASTI website is of a school with a 1/2 day during the week. I think that's very telling tbh.

solerina

In fairness we have a half day but I really don't want to give this up for more meetings, we have already worked our week to get it. one 40 min class getting constantly grouped into after school meetings is going to become very annoying after a while !!
I don't mind giving up my half days for extra curricular or extra classes but yet more meetings....No thanks !!

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The new language curriculum in primary is only supposed to be monitored by doing up outcomes for a few pupils, so not at all an issue, right??

Just like how how IEPs were not to be done until we had resources and training. Now they are being insisted upon.

We were told standard tests would only have to be reported to parents, suddenly it was also to the DES but we were assured that it was only for statistics. Now the DES will use those results to remove supports from schools.

Sorry Point of info!
Not too sure about primary but the secondary unions have a directive against IEP's. There's quite a number of teachers who just blindly assume they ' have to do them'. Keep in mind too an IEP is a legal document, and as such schools/teachers can be (And have been!) brought to court for failing to carry out the IEP.
This was all part of the Epsen act, which only half was enacted!

tosh999

Getting back on thread ...... it will be interesting to see if a better organised ASTI ballot will increase the numbers who vote and if so how militant the ordinary, recently non voting ASTI member, is.

Recent NUACHT newsletter makes it pretty clear whats at stake - no pay increase, no increment restoration, serious financial hit for those many APs over 65k.

deiseindublin

TUI rejected LRA.

CP hours are supposed to be gone at end June also, will be interesting what they propose instead though. Whatever it is, we'll be voting on it in the next 4 weeks.

doc_17

tosh999 wrote: »

Getting back on thread ...... it will be interesting to see if a better organised ASTI ballot will increase the numbers who vote and if so how militant the ordinary, recently non voting ASTI member, is.

Recent NUACHT newsletter makes it pretty clear whats at stake - no pay increase, no increment restoration, serious financial hit for those many APs over 65k.

The only way to scrap CP hours was by joint TUI and ASTI action - unfortunately this will not happen as they have accepted the HRA.

Have you mistaken HRA for Lansdowne Rd Agreement? HRA was 2014 and accepted by both ASTI & TUI. TUI has rejected LRA which was the most recent deal