Obligation to prove end of pregnancy?

Withering

Say I went out with a girl for 6 months. 4 months in, we find out she's pregnant and I'm the father. 6 months in, we split up.
Girl now states that she's no longer pregnant.
Would I have any right to proof of the end of the pregnancy? Would she have any obligation whatsoever?
When the baby would be due, could I then apply for custody/access? What would I need to do?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

As far as I know, you'd have to prove you were the father before you'd have any rights and even at that, you'll probably have very little. You wouldn't be entitled to any information of her pregnancy unless she gives it to you

Withering

So, say for e.g. I chose to send her a legal letter (from my solicitor) requesting access to information on her pregnancy, would that be ok?

esforum

she would be completely free to ignore it. You have no rights whatsover

Please also remember "She is no longer pregnant" means an aborton or miscarraige I assume so some compassion is required.

Do you suspect she is still pregnant or lied to get back together?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

You could try but to be honest if my ex was requesting details of my medical history or ongoing medical treatment through a solicitor I'd be telling him in no uncertain terms to eff off.

Also, would a solicitor even send a letter like that? She's not obligated to give you any such information. If she does, it's at her own discretion.
Also she could turn around and say it's not your kid anyway, can you prove it is?

topmanamillion

While I respect you've probably made a decision to keep this vague. Theres a few things that don't really add up so I've had to fill in the blanks.
It seems you went out with a girl, you split up, she told you she lost the baby and for some reason you don't believe her?
If she was 6 months pregnant she would be showing.
In 90 days she'd be due to deliver a baby.
If she doesn't have a baby in 90 days I think you'll have your questions about her honesty answered.

Withering

And say for example, that I had sent such a letter through my solicitor and she was now reporting me to the gardai for harassment and seeking a restraining order, would a judge not see that I am a father-to-be who just wants to be involved in this pregnancy?

Withering

More to the point, can she state that my solicitor contacting her in relation to me requesting proof of her no longer being pregnant is harassment? Could she be granted a restraining order against me on that basis alone?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Quite frankly, yes. It is harassment. You have NO RIGHT whatsoever to her medical details. None at all. And sending her a solicitors letter asking to prove she lost the baby/terminated the pregnancy is bang out of order.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Also, you'd be wise to remember if she still is pregnant, you harassing her and stressing her out with the threat of solicitors hanging over her will not be good for the baby, and will not help good relations, which you'll need if you ever plan on seeing the kid.

Pro Hoc Vice

Withering wrote: »

More to the point, can she state that my solicitor contacting her in relation to me requesting proof of her no longer being pregnant is harassment? Could she be granted a restraining order against me on that basis alone?

You do realise this all sounds a bit mad, as a totally unconnected bystander I would be worried about you and while on the face of it sending a solicitors letter should not be considered harresment, my personal view of what I think your asking could be borderline.

Withering

That's just as I thought. There is a discussion on another site however, where the woman is in this very predicament. The legal eagles (self processed family law practitioners) there are telling her that the easiest thing for her to do is to just provide proof that she's no longer pregnant. They claim that a judge would not look well on her for being obstructive for the sake of it and would not grant the restraining order on that basis. It just seems odd to me. But them what knows have been advising her so and far be it from me to stick me oar in! I was just curious really.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Withering wrote: »

And say for example, that I had sent such a letter through my solicitor and she was now reporting me to the gardai for harassment and seeking a restraining order, would a judge not see that I am a father-to-be who just wants to be involved in this pregnancy?

Can you prove you're the father to be? And the judge cannot force her to allow you be part of her pregnancy. If she does not want you at the scans, the appointments, the antenatal classes or the birth then nobody can force her. It's her you need to be talking to, and being nice to, and trying to put her and the baby first.

Withering

Here's a link to the discussion. I'm playing devil's advocate from the other side here.

mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters/2609575-no-longer-pregnant-abusve-ex-pursuing-me-harassing-via-solicitor?pg=1&messages=50

Mr. Incognito

Legally No. You have no rights whatsoever.

I think with that response this thread might be better suited to personal issues.

Withering

I'm discussing the theoretical legality of it. I don't need personal advice thank you very much!

CIARAN_BOYLE

Withering wrote: »

Here's a link to the discussion. I'm playing devil's advocate from the other side here.

mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters/2609575-no-longer-pregnant-abusve-ex-pursuing-me-harassing-via-solicitor?pg=1&messages=50

Is that an Irish site? any information provided could be related to another jurisdiction.

That said on the theoretical side I do believe that there should a mechanism to give comfort to men who were in a relationship about whether a child and 10 years of back childsupport will be sought by someone you were together with briefly.

Withering

No it's a UK SITE.

FortySeven

A solicitors letter asking for clarification of a client's future legal and financial obligations us in no way harassment.
There is no such restraining order she could apply for as far as I am aware.
Barring order. No chance.
Safety order. No chance.
Protection ordet. Possible but unlikely.

A judge is going to tell this woman to disclose. As she should.

Lexie. Fathers have plenty rights. You are making out he can do nothing. Bad form.

esforum

its not harassment to send someone a letter. Dont we get them almost every single day delivered to us?

If you were contacting her constantly and then added the solicitor into the mix then that would be harassment.

A judge would nto look kindly on her for what? If there is no baby theres no baby and besides, no person has a right to your medical information. If there is a baby, it will need to be proved who the father is before either side can start demanding things

As has been said, if she says she is no longer pregnant you can only take her word for it - there is no right to another's medical data. She can, however lie, and still force you to provide support when it is later born. Being male, you have no rights but all responsibilities.

esforum

FortySeven wrote: »

A solicitors letter asking for clarification of a client's future legal and financial obligations us in no way harassment.

Thats not what the lette is asking, its asking for access to medical information

FortySeven wrote: »

A judge is going to tell this woman to disclose. As she should.

How would you even get in front of a Judge to ask for disclosure? whats the actual case?

FortySeven wrote: »

Lexie. Fathers have plenty rights. You are making out he can do nothing. Bad form.

Hes not a father yet and unmarried ones have no rights until they get a lovely piece of paper from the Judge which lets be honest, is limited in the rights it grants

Neyite

Withering wrote: »

Here's a link to the discussion. I'm playing devil's advocate from the other side here.

mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters/2609575-no-longer-pregnant-abusve-ex-pursuing-me-harassing-via-solicitor?pg=1&messages=50

That's a UK site, so the law might differ in that jurisdiction, and also depending on whether the OP is based in England or Scotland (or NI for that matter) Additionally, new laws were introduced in the UK regarding abusive partners - now its possible to charge a person for non-physical abuse. I think their harassment laws tightened up some years ago too.

Here though, you wouldn't be entitled to her medical information - which her pregnancy is. Even when a midwife takes your ante-natal history they insist you do it alone, without your partner. If or when a baby comes along, the ex could theoretically bring proceedings against a woman to get access to his child, but he would have no access to her medical data purely because he (says he) impregnated her.

Atlantic Dawn

Have you seen her since she says she's no longer pregnant, it should be visible by now, if it is she's pregnant, if it's not she's not, doesn't take Sherlock Holmes and legal letters to get to the bottom of this.

Withering

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Have you seen her since she says she's no longer pregnant, it should be visible by now, if it is she's pregnant, if it's not she's not, doesn't take Sherlock Holmes and legal letters to get to the bottom of this.

Atlantic Dawn. This was a theoretical discussion I started. Based on another apparently real-life scenario, but I was just surprised at the legal advice the woman received on another board.

FortySeven

esforum wrote: »

Thats not what the lette is asking, its asking for access to medical information



How would you even get in front of a Judge to ask for disclosure? whats the actual case?



Hes not a father yet and unmarried ones have no rights until they get a lovely piece of paper from the Judge which lets be honest, is limited in the rights it grants

I'm just after being made to disclose mental health information to gain access to my children. This happens.

He'll be in front of the judge for any hearing of barring, safety or protection order. Failing that, likely maintenance hearing.

Unmarried fathers have many more rights now than they had before. While guardianship may be limited it is awarded to most who apply and the rights of the child now overrule the mother.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

FortySeven wrote: »

A solicitors letter asking for clarification of a client's future legal and financial obligations us in no way harassment.
There is no such restraining order she could apply for as far as I am aware.
Barring order. No chance.
Safety order. No chance.
Protection ordet. Possible but unlikely.

A judge is going to tell this woman to disclose. As she should.

Lexie. Fathers have plenty rights. You are making out he can do nothing. Bad form.

Fathers have rights when the baby is born. If the mother turns around and says it's not his, there's nothing he can do until the child is born and there's a paternity test done.
She can't be forced to allow him be part of the pregnancy

Neyite

Withering wrote: »

Atlantic Dawn. This was a theoretical discussion I started. Based on another apparently real-life scenario, but I was just surprised at the legal advice the woman received on another board.

Why surprised?

In the scenario, the woman is no longer pregnant. Her ex has no rights over a foetus (or child-to-be whichever way you want to call it) that no longer exists - he never would. The only time his rights would be considered is if there was a born child. The pregnancy loss is historical medical information now.

To consider this another way, could anybody's ex to be able to demand historical medical information by solicitors letter? For example, proof of a treated STI? I doubt it.

FortySeven

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Fathers have rights when the baby is born. If the mother turns around and says it's not his, there's nothing he can do until the child is born and there's a paternity test done.
She can't be forced to allow him be part of the pregnancy

There was no suggestion in the op that the mother was questioning paternity. Granted she could try that angle.

I was posting on the long term implications based on the child being his.

FortySeven

FortySeven wrote: »

I'm just after being made to disclose mental health information to gain access to my children. This happens.

He'll be in front of the judge for any hearing of barring, safety or protection order. Failing that, likely maintenance hearing.

Unmarried fathers have many more rights now than they had before. While guardianship may be limited it is awarded to most who apply and the rights of the child now overrule the mother.

To gain access to actual living breathing children. You were married to their mother?

Father's rights in this country are basically non existent when parents are not married.
In Ireland she wouldn't qualify for a barring border, safety order etc.

sbsquarepants

FortySeven wrote: »

A solicitors letter asking for clarification of a client's future legal and financial obligations us in no way harassment.
There is no such restraining order she could apply for as far as I am aware.
Barring order. No chance.
Safety order. No chance.
Protection ordet. Possible but unlikely.

A judge is going to tell this woman to disclose. As she should.

Lexie. Fathers have plenty rights. You are making out he can do nothing. Bad form.

Lexie is bang on.
Firstly - fathers have very limited rights.
Secondly - he's not a father - he's at best a possible father of a possible child, I'd be amazed for a judge to tell this girl anything other than to go home and put her feet up!
I would imagine OP your best bet is to wait a few months and then make a few discreet enquiries, if she does turn up with a baby all of a sudden maybe, just MAYBE, you could get a judge to order a paternity test if you so desired, I'm not sure but I certainly wouldn't like to rely on it.
Until then, just leave the girl alone, she clearly wants nothing to do with you.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

FortySeven wrote: »

There was no suggestion in the op that the mother was questioning paternity. Granted she could try that angle.

I was posting on the long term implications based on the child being his.

She told him there is no child. He won't take her word for it and is demanding medical records to prove she is no longer pregnant because he wants to be active in the pregnancy.
He has absolutely no right to this. None whatsoever.

esforum

FortySeven wrote: »

I'm just after being made to disclose mental health information to gain access to my children. This happens.

not the same at all, not even remotely. They are so far apart and different that it should be obvious.

FortySeven wrote: »

He'll be in front of the judge for any hearing of barring, safety or protection order. Failing that, likely maintenance hearing.

I am sorry but thats just completely backwards and has no merit at all. Has he requested these orders and if so, whats the evidential basis for a disclosure order?

FortySeven wrote: »

Unmarried fathers have many more rights now than they had before. While guardianship may be limited it is awarded to most who apply and the rights of the child now overrule the mother.

The rules have not changed in many decades. The child is not born yet, therefore a father does not legally exist. Until such time as a child is born and a person requests giardianship, they have **** all rights. The child was always numero uno

esforum

Neyite wrote: »

Why surprised?

In the scenario, the woman is no longer pregnant. Her ex has no rights over a foetus (or child-to-be whichever way you want to call it) that no longer exists - he never would. The only time his rights would be considered is if there was a born child. The pregnancy loss is historical medical information now.

To consider this another way, could anybody's ex to be able to demand historical medical information by solicitors letter? For example, proof of a treated STI? I doubt it.

He is surprised that in another forum the woman is being told that she will have to give the information and thus, is surprised

actually I think in regards an STI there would be some possibility of the order being made. I know that theres orders made in assault cases where the suspect may have or has threatened to use blood

FortySeven

bubblypop wrote: »

To gain access to actual living breathing children. You were married to their mother?

Father's rights in this country are basically non existent when parents are not married.
In Ireland she wouldn't qualify for a barring border, safety order etc.

Not married. Mother tried everything including abduction abroad, False allegations of abuse. Barring order, opposed access, opposed guardianship, opposed me having a say on passports.

It's been 4 months of hell but now have them back in Ireland. Have guardianship, have control of passports and have access.

Access is limited because in her final desperate flourish to hurt me she claimed I was insane and unsafe to be with the kids due to me being bipolar. I have had to furnish her solicitors with psychological and psychiatric records and reports to prove I am not.

I expect full access to be granted this month based on my certificates of non craziness.

I didn't believe I had a hope in family court after reading what to expect online. I have to say that while the system is fundamentally flawed due to the core idea that the mother is best for the children no matter what, it has functioned in a fair and decent way in my case.

The idea that unmarried fathers have no rights is outdated. We have the same rights as married fathers.

sbsquarepants

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Have you seen her since she says she's no longer pregnant, it should be visible by now, if it is she's pregnant, if it's not she's not, doesn't take Sherlock Holmes and legal letters to get to the bottom of this.

That's not necessarily true either - My missus is about to pop (she's as big as a whale:D) but on the previous 2 kids, you wouldn't have known she was pregnant, never had to wear different clothes or anything like that.

FortySeven

To be clear. The rules have changed. I'm on my phone so can't be bothered linking but unmarried fathers have automatic guardianship now. New rules came in last year.
New family relationship act 2015 I think its called. Sweeping changes were made.

FortySeven

LexieOnRale wrote: »

She told him there is no child. He won't take her word for it and is demanding medical records to prove she is no longer pregnant because he wants to be active in the pregnancy.
He has absolutely no right to this. None whatsoever.

He should have that right but that is another debate.

Speedwell

Until he is shown to be the father, he has no more rights than any other schmoe.

Withering

FortySeven wrote: »

Not married. Mother tried everything including abduction abroad, False allegations of abuse. Barring order, opposed access, opposed guardianship, opposed me having a say on passports.

It's been 4 months of hell but now have them back in Ireland. Have guardianship, have control of passports and have access.

Access is limited because in her final desperate flourish to hurt me she claimed I was insane and unsafe to be with the kids due to me being bipolar. I have had to furnish her solicitors with psychological and psychiatric records and reports to prove I am not.

I expect full access to be granted this month based on my certificates of non craziness.

I didn't believe I had a hope in family court after reading what to expect online. I have to say that while the system is fundamentally flawed due to the core idea that the mother is best for the children no matter what, it has functioned in a fair and decent way in my case.

The idea that unmarried fathers have no rights is outdated. We have the same rights as married fathers.

Fortyseven. While I appreciate your predicament, you are somewhat distracting the discussion.
There is no pregnancy, let alone child in this scenario.

eviltwin

FortySeven wrote: »

He should have that right but that is another debate.

The right to know if a woman is pregnant? To be present at medical appointments? Don't be ridiculous. No one has the right to be involved in a third parties health care.

Withering

FortySeven wrote: »

He should have that right but that is another debate.

That is precisely the debate I'm trying to have!

Neyite

esforum wrote: »

He is surprised that in another forum the woman is being told that she will have to give the information and thus, is surprised

actually I think in regards an STI there would be some possibility of the order being made. I know that there's orders made in assault cases where the suspect may have or has threatened to use blood

I've just read the thread. The legals on the thread acknowledge that the OP does not have to give the information, but rather its a way of getting him to back off once and for all.

This poster on the thread over there says it in a clearer way than I could:

I don't think you have to provide him with proof and I also see why under the circumstances having a gp write down in b+w that you are not pregnant would be distressing.

I also think that he has more interest in abusing you than in the pregnancy and as such he will continue regardless.

However, I think the only way to get him to stop harrassing you is to get the law on your side so I might reluctantly go along with the legal advice on this thread

Not because he has a right to know
Not because he will stop if he does

But because he has stated in a document witnessed by a sol that he will stop.

Thus strengthening your case greatly when he inevitably does not.

In which case I would wait until you feel like responding be that days or weeks. Don't jump to his timetable there is nothing he can do and he knows it.

When you are ready get a letter and get gp or sol to add that this request and his harassment of you is causing you great distress. Now you have complied with what you consider to be an unnecessary and unreasonable request you expect him as per his previous correspondence to have no further contact with you by any means. Any contact will be reported to the police.

Then when the stupid ****er inevitably does contact you, police, court etc. And keep pushing till they arrest him.

He has a pp says painted himself into a corner by clearly indicating that any further contact on his part would be inappropriate.

I know it sticks in the craw. And normally I'd say tell him to go **** himself but in this case he appears to have unwittingly given you the upper hand by binding himself to leave you alone

Esforum, I can see why a court order for STI information in the event of a documented assault or threat might be asked for by Police /Gardai, however in your bog-standard Nutter Ex scenario, I doubt very much it would even be entertained by the authorities or the courts?

Speedwell

And furthermore, even if he could prove he was the father of the erstwhile pregnancy, his rights do not extend over the woman now that she is no longer pregnant.

FortySeven

esforum wrote: »

I am sorry but thats just completely backwards and has no merit at all. Has he requested these orders and if so, whats the evidential basis for a disclosure

The mother is looking for a restraining order against him. He would have to be in court to reply to it. Barring, safety and protection are the three orders she could apply for. All require his attendance. (eventually)

I never said he was instigating anything.

You're also very, very wrong on the laws not changing.

esforum

FortySeven wrote: »

To be clear. The rules have changed. I'm on my phone so can't be bothered linking but unmarried fathers have automatic guardianship now. New rules came in last year.
New family relationship act 2015 I think its called. Sweeping changes were made.

that didnt grant automatic guardianship on birth to fathers. Theres still ins and outs to it, a one night stand or casual relationship that has ended is still not included. It grants rights under for donors, civil marriages, co-habitation, etc.

FortySeven wrote: »

The mother is looking for a restraining order against him. He would have to be in court to reply to it. Barring, safety and protection are the three orders she could apply for. All require his attendance. (eventually)

I never said he was instigating anything.

You're also very, very wrong on the laws not changing.

That still doesnt allow a respondant to start making requests for disclosure that arent related to the case before the court. Thats why I asked was he bringing the case, if he is answering a family court order request how can he bring up medical records of the other side?

No I am not, as above

Speedwell

esforum wrote: »

that didnt grant automatic guardianship on birth to fathers. Theres still ins and outs to it, a one night stand or casual relationship that has ended is still not included

As far as anyone knows, there was no birth, right?

Withering

It seems unreasonable though Neyite? Am I correct in thinking that a man in Ireland would get told to eff off by a judge, or would similar advice apply?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

FortySeven wrote: »

He should have that right but that is another debate.

No he absolutely without a doubt should not. I am ALL for the rights of the father, I believe once the father isn't a raging bastard, or a danger to children, he should have access to his kids because having a dad is very very important to children and mothers being bitter should not stand in the way of that.

However, if a relationship breaks down, if he was controlling and a bully, or cheating on her, or whatever, I think she'd have enough on her plate without having to be stressed out even more so, by men having a given right to her medical condition/appointments. If they break up and are on decent terms and she WANTS him to be part of it, that should be absolutely her decision.
If she doesn't want him at the birth then he quite rightly should not be allowed try force her into it.

Neyite

eviltwin wrote: »

The right to know if a woman is pregnant? To be present at medical appointments? Don't be ridiculous. No one has the right to be involved in a third parties health care.

Midwives wont take your ante-natal history in front of a woman's partner. Mine got sent away for a coffee. A man who insisted on staying put for it would be a red flag for them I imagine.

FortySeven

Withering wrote: »

Fortyseven. While I appreciate your predicament, you are somewhat distracting the discussion.
There is no pregnancy, let alone child in this scenario.

Granted but he asked. Won't be mentioned again.