Dangerous driving summons help?

Unknown4360

I received a summons recently for dangerous driving and i was looking for some advice about it. I was pulling out from a secondary road onto a primary road wen a car hit me from my right.. There was a car stopped on the left allowing other cars to turn right and i did not see the car coming from the right as that side of the junction was on a bend. I did everything i was supposed to including stopping, looking and indicating and it still caused a crash. It all happened so quickly I couldn't tell was the other car speeding or not but in all cases it was a complete accident. The other person and i were both taken to hospital with very minor injuries mainly just for precautionary actions so glady we were both ok. I received the summons a few weeks later then for dangerous driving and I cannot understand how it was deemed so bad. Ive never once before had points or fines or any trouble with the law does anyone know what might happen for me in court?

Esel

You pulled out from a minor road.

Lawyer up pronto.

Dangerous driving charge? Definitely lawyer up!

Withering

The car that was stopped, was it on the major road? Or was it on your inside lane?

Unknown4360

Withering wrote: »

The car that was stopped, was it on the major road? Or was it on your inside lane?

Yes it was allowing cars out to turn right

guil

Unknown4360 wrote: »

Yes it was allowing cars out to turn right

Maybe they could see the car that hit you was coming and that's why they were stopped?

Withering

That car would have had right of way then. You shouldn't have pulled out in front of it for a start, and it was probably stalled waiting for car that hit you to pass before it turned in right. You basically pulled straight out in front of a car.

Unknown4360

guil wrote: »

Maybe they could see the car that hit you was coming and that's why they were stopped?

The car was stopped allowing a few cars out in front of mine and was going to allow more from what i gathered from talking with the person afterwards but obviously a crash wasn't intended to occur. I just can't figure out why it's considered dangerous driving when i wasn't speeding or drunk or anything like that. A simple error added with the fact the car that hit me must have being doing a handy speed i just thought it would have been a smaller charge

Emmadilema123

Unknown4360 wrote: »

The car was stopped allowing a few cars out in front of mine and was going to allow more from what i gathered from talking with the person afterwards but obviously a crash wasn't intended to occur. I just can't figure out why it's considered dangerous driving when i wasn't speeding or drunk or anything like that. A simple error added with the fact the car that hit me must have being doing a handy speed i just thought it would have been a smaller charge

The person who hit you may have made a dangerous driving complaint against you?

Unknown4360

Withering wrote: »

That car would have had right of way then. You shouldn't have pulled out in front of it for a start, and it was probably stalled waiting for car that hit you to pass before it turned in right. You basically pulled straight out in front of a car.

The car stopped was going straight but was allowing other cars just to pull out and go right from the same point i was coming from but from my end I did all the usual precautions but i just did not see the car that hit me coming as there was a bend on that side of the road. It is possible the stopped car may not have seen the car that hit me coming either as i could never work out how fast it was going

stefanovich

Unknown4360 wrote: »

The car stopped was going straight but was allowing other cars just to pull out and go right from the same point i was coming from but from my end I did all the usual precautions but i just did not see the car that hit me coming as there was a bend on that side of the road. It is possible the stopped car may not have seen the car that hit me coming either as i could never work out how fast it was going

Why was the guy letting people go when he had right of way? Really pisses me off...

Unknown4360

Emmadilema123 wrote: »

The person who hit you may have made a dangerous driving complaint against you?

No it was the guy above the guard who attended the scene who sent the summons which i can't understand as he hadn't seen what had happened but surely got relevant information from my statement and the other persons statement to what had happened. Plus the guard at the never said anything to me about being in trouble or anything it all just came out of the blue. I made sure the other person was ok and insurance was all sorted afterwards too i took full blame on the insurance just because I felt like i had no choice cause i was the one who pulled out but it just all seemed like this was a simple accident

Unknown4360

stefanovich wrote: »

Why was the guy letting people go when he had right of way? Really pisses me off...

Im not sure. It did give me a false safety when pulling out because as you would think he would not be letting people out if he could see a car coming and as I didnt see the car I just pulled out as normal and then the accident occurred

Withering

If you pulled out in front of me causing me to crash into you, I wouldn't see it as a simple accident.

Withering

How long are you driving? This to me sounds like a rookie error. Have you a full driving licence?

Emmadilema123

Unknown4360 wrote: »

No it was the guy above the guard who attended the scene who sent the summons which i can't understand as he hadn't seen what had happened but surely got relevant information from my statement and the other persons statement to what had happened. Plus the guard at the never said anything to me about being in trouble or anything it all just came out of the blue. I made sure the other person was ok and insurance was all sorted afterwards too i took full blame on the insurance just because I felt like i had no choice cause i was the one who pulled out but it just all seemed like this was a simple accident

It does sound a bit excessive alright! As others have said I would speak to a lawyer at this stage with advice on how to go forward. At the very least it might relieve some stress having someone in your corner.

Truckermal

Withering wrote: »

If you pulled out in front of me causing me to crash into you, I wouldn't see it as a simple accident.

Yes but a summons for dangerous driving seems very harsh imo, driving without due care and attention would be more appropriate.

Withering

Driving without due care and attention is appropriate for say not anticipating aquaplaning or not anticipating that a dog would run in front of you. Dangerous driving is pulling out in front of a car.

Pro Hoc Vice

Unknown4360 wrote: »

No it was the guy above the guard who attended the scene who sent the summons which i can't understand as he hadn't seen what had happened but surely got relevant information from my statement and the other persons statement to what had happened. Plus the guard at the never said anything to me about being in trouble or anything it all just came out of the blue. I made sure the other person was ok and insurance was all sorted afterwards too i took full blame on the insurance just because I felt like i had no choice cause i was the one who pulled out but it just all seemed like this was a simple accident

Conviction for Dangerous driving is a mandatory ban, that means on conviction no driving for a while, so take your summons and go straight to a solicitor.

Unknown4360

Withering wrote: »

If you pulled out in front of me causing me to crash into you, I wouldn't see it as a simple accident.

I understand what you're saying but the other person must have been going a handy speed to say I didn't see the car at all. I stayed in contact with the other person to make sure everything was fine afterwards and the main thing is that we were both fine after it but im just worried about this court case now. Ive never had anything like this happen before so im just concerned is all

Pro Hoc Vice

Unknown4360 wrote: »

I understand what you're saying but the other person must have been going a handy speed to say I didn't see the car at all. I stayed in contact with the other person to make sure everything was fine afterwards and the main thing is that we were both fine after it but im just worried about this court case now. Ive never had anything like this happen before so im just concerned is all

It does not matter what you think or any person on this forum, all that matters is the evidence that will be presented to the Judge the only opinion that matters is his or hers. This is serious and will effect your ability to drive make an appointment with a good solicitor in the area.

stefanovich

Unknown4360 wrote: »

I understand what you're saying but the other person must have been going a handy speed to say I didn't see the car at all. I stayed in contact with the other person to make sure everything was fine afterwards and the main thing is that we were both fine after it but im just worried about this court case now. Ive never had anything like this happen before so im just concerned is all

When I pull out of my driveway I need to edge out little by little. I still get beeps from people occasionally who are speeding down the road.

If the visibility was poor, the guy on the main road was speeding and there was an idiot causing confusion by being a "nice guy" then I would say there were mitigating factors.

Unknown4360

Withering wrote: »

How long are you driving? This to me sounds like a rookie error. Have you a full driving licence?

Full licence 5 years im only 23 ive never ever had any driving trouble before and I consider myself a safe and confident driver but on this occasion there was a slight lapse of judgment I suppose

Del2005

Unknown4360 wrote: »

No it was the guy above the guard who attended the scene who sent the summons which i can't understand as he hadn't seen what had happened but surely got relevant information from my statement and the other persons statement to what had happened. Plus the guard at the never said anything to me about being in trouble or anything it all just came out of the blue. I made sure the other person was ok and insurance was all sorted afterwards too i took full blame on the insurance just because I felt like i had no choice cause i was the one who pulled out but it just all seemed like this was a simple accident

You caused a crash which required 2 people to be brought to hospital that means that you drove dangerously.

If you told the Garda that you didn't see the other car coming because you where on a bend yet still proceeded to enter the major road then you admitted to dangerous driving at the scene.

The Gardai don't tell people that they will be prosecuting at the scene of crashes in order to avoid hassle, which is extremely unprofessional but I can see why they do it.

cml387

Get a solicitor.

More than likely it will be reduced to driving without due care and attention.

stefanovich

Unknown4360 wrote: »

Full licence 5 years im only 23 ive never ever had any driving trouble before and I consider myself a safe and confident driver but on this occasion there was a slight lapse of judgment I suppose

You might get banned or you might get fined. Look on the bright side. Nobody is dead. You were lucky. Not being able to drive for a few months is nothing compared to feeling guilty for the rest of your life for killing someone.

Unknown4360

stefanovich wrote: »

When I pull out of my driveway I need to edge out little by little. I still get beeps from people occasionally who are speeding down the road.

If the visibility was poor, the guy on the main road was speeding and there was an idiot causing confusion by being a "nice guy" then I would say there were mitigating factors.

There was factors that effected the situation but I'll accept full responsibility if that is what is decided i just cant see why it is 'dangerous driving' and not 'careless driving' or something thats not as serious

Pro Hoc Vice

Unknown4360 wrote: »

Full licence 5 years im only 23 ive never ever had any driving trouble before and I consider myself a safe and confident driver but on this occasion there was a slight lapse of judgment I suppose

Please take advice by you own words you may have admitted the offence, the definition of dangerous driving "involves driving in a manner which a prudent person would recognise as involving an unjustifiable risk of harm to the public." While what happened may or may not be dangerous or the lesser charge of careless, it really is legal advice you need.

Unknown4360

stefanovich wrote: »

You might get banned or you might get fined. Look on the bright side. Nobody is dead. You were lucky. Not being able to drive for a few months is nothing compared to feeling guilty for the rest of your life for killing someone.

Yes thats the main thing for sure i still cant help but worry is all though as its my first time ever in a sticky situation

mansize

cml387 wrote: »

Get a solicitor.

More than likely it will be reduced to driving without due care and attention.

Do this. Get a solicitor, they deal with this the whole time. Get one who deals with RTAs is good too, not just your local conveyancing sol.

stefanovich

Unknown4360 wrote: »

There was factors that effected the situation but I'll accept full responsibility if that is what is decided i just cant see why it is 'dangerous driving' and not 'careless driving' or something thats not as serious

Careless/Dangerous. Pretty vague terms. I suppose you'd need to look into the wording of the laws. Better yet, find a lawyer to do it for you!

Pro Hoc Vice

stefanovich wrote: »

You might get banned or you might get fined. Look on the bright side. Nobody is dead. You were lucky. Not being able to drive for a few months is nothing compared to feeling guilty for the rest of your life for killing someone.

If convicted of dangerous he WILL get banned there is no might it is a 2 year ban end of. "Up until relatively recently, Irish Judges had a discretion on a first conviction, not to disqualify (ban) a driver. This discretion was exercised frequently in the justice of a situation, if the driver required his licence for work to earn a living or other compelling reason. If a driver is convicted today of an offence of dangerous driving he or she is banned automatically for a period of 2 years and the sentencing Judge has no discretion."

http://blog.peterconnolly.ie/2012/03/dangerous-driving-prosecutions.html

Withering

Can I ask what speed limit applied on the main road? Were you in a town, or turning onto a national road?

kirving

To be fair to the OP, we don't know whether the other car was speeding, whether they were paying full attention to the road, whether they had good tyres, we're their lights on, the weather, the other other driver letting the OP out.

I would say on the face of it, the OP is at fault, but a dangerous driving charge is a big deal, and there may have been mitigating circumstances.

Unknown4360

Withering wrote: »

Can I ask what speed limit applied on the main road? Were you in a town, or turning onto a national road?

It wasnt a hugely busy road the speed limit was 50km/h on the main road

Pro Hoc Vice

stefanovich wrote: »

Careless/Dangerous. Pretty vague terms. I suppose you'd need to look into the wording of the laws. Better yet, find a lawyer to do it for you!

While they may seem vague, both have been defined by the Courts and any road traffic solicitor will be able to tell the OP the difference.

mansize

No need to go into further particulars of the incident here as responses won't help and may get you worked up or worried.

As the first reply advised, go to a good sol, he/she will advise best how to proceed and get the most favourable outcome for their client.

Go to solicitor, there's a possibility ( likely ) that you could end up pleaing to a lesser charge in court.

Withering

The one thing I would be wary of is your focus on the other driver stopped on the main road.

1. You should not depend on another driver (not sure whether this is law or not, but it's basic advice for driving).
2. It's quite likely the driver was actually indicating to turn in right and you didn't notice that, nor the other car coming.
3. Pulling out right onto a junction is one of the most dangerous moves you make as a driver. Turning left, you're just worried about what's coming from your right. Turning right, you need to be worried about what's coming from both sides.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

The Gardai don't tell people that they will be prosecuting at the scene of crashes in order to avoid hassle, which is extremely unprofessional but I can see why they do it.

Really??

Probably more unprofessional to tell people they will be prosecuted without knowing all the evidence dont you think?
If the guard didn't witness anything, how do you expect him to tell someone that?

& there's no such thing as a road traffic accident anymore, they are road traffic incidents. Seeing as how something always causes it.

magentis

Were you cautioned by the guard at the scene op?

seamus

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I would say on the face of it, the OP is at fault, but a dangerous driving charge is a big deal, and there may have been mitigating circumstances.

The difference between a dangerous driving charge and a due care and attention one is often the outcome of the incident rather than the specifics of the how and why.

If the event had resulted in a "near-miss", then the Gardai may have gone for a lesser charge. The fact that there was a crash is why they've gone for the greater one. That is, the burden of proving "danger" is significantly lowered by the fact that a crash occurred.

The dangerous driving charge is also particularly more likely when you've caused an accident with traffic not travelling in your direction.

Del2005

bubblypop wrote: »

Really??

Probably more unprofessional to tell people they will be prosecuted without knowing all the evidence dont you think?
If the guard didn't witness anything, how do you expect him to tell someone that?

& there's no such thing as a road traffic accident anymore, they are road traffic incidents. Seeing as how something always causes it.

Plenty of posters here have been stopped by the Gardai, have nothing said to them and then receive a fixed penalty notice in the post shortly after. They could say that you've caused a crash in which people have been injured so this may go further.

Who mentioned accident, apart from you??

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

Plenty of posters here have been stopped by the Gardai, have nothing said to them and then receive a fixed penalty notice in the post shortly after. They could say that you've caused a crash in which people have been injured so this may go further.

Who mentioned accident, apart from you??

You said, gardai don't tell people they will be prosecuted to save hassle and that it's unprofessional.

I'm telling you, it's not unprofessional. They don't have all the evidence.
The ' oral warning' was removed some years ago.

And the OP mentioned accident. Never said you did.

punisher5112

Its a very serious offence op.

You will be affected for years to come on insurance and lots won't even insure.

You should consider putting in a complaint to the council if the junction is that bad as to hopefully stop it happening again to someone else.

Dangerous driving is the worst driving without due care and attention is second most.

As others have said you need a solicitor..
Depending on where you are I have a solicitor working on a different matter but motor related but this is his expertise.

Neilw

Happened to me many years ago, I had right of way and a car pulled out in front of me from behind a stopped car. I hit the rear quarter panel with the drivers side of my car and did a fair amount of damage.

The other driver was deemed 100% at fault by the guards and my insurance company, there were no charges that I know of.

OP I'd get a solicitor on the case.

Unknown4360

magentis wrote: »

Were you cautioned by the guard at the scene op?

No i wasnt i didn't really think it was as serious as it has been made. I knew i was gonna have to face the insurance problems and all that but i didn't think i was going to get a summons. Nevermind one for dangerous driving

Henry Ford III

Neilw wrote: »

Happened to me many years ago, I had right of way and a car pulled out in front of me from behind a stopped car. I hit the rear quarter panel with the drivers side of my car and did a fair amount of damage.

The other driver was deemed 100% at fault by the guards and my insurance company, there were no charges that I know of.

OP I'd get a solicitor on the case.

Sounds reasonable but the Gardai don't decide on liability for an accident. That's agreed but the parties concerned, or their respective insurers, or pehaps in court.

the_pen_turner

did the stopped car signal you to drive out or did they just stop .
I have heard of people being held responsible for crashes when they let someone out like that.

TheChizler

I don't think it's been made clear yet, but OP you say you didn't see the car coming from the right; I'd like to clarify whether this was because you didn't look or simply because the car was not visible from your position when you started the turn. Did you inch out or just go for it?

This actually happened to me where I was the car coming from the right, thankfully it was in slow moving traffic, and the other driver admitted straight up that he didn't look for traffic in my lane.

Unknown4360

the_pen_turner wrote: »

did the stopped car signal you to drive out or did they just stop .
I have heard of people being held responsible for crashes when they let someone out like that.

Well by staying stopped abd signalling i assumed i was being left out and just to clarify i did stop and look left and right then I pulled out

Unknown4360

TheChizler wrote: »

I don't think it's been made clear yet, but OP you say you didn't see the car coming from the right; I'd like to clarify whether this was because you didn't look or simply because the car was not visible from your position when you started the turn. Did you inch out or just go for it?

This actually happened to me where I was the car coming from the right, thankfully it was in slow moving traffic, and the other driver admitted straight up that he didn't look for traffic in my lane.

Yes i did look i just didnt see the car at all because of the bend at that side of the junction and considering the other car was stopped to let me out i thought i was safe to go but obviously it wasnt. Im convinced myself the other person had to have been going a handy speed but I really can't say or judge