Owning a diesel for the first time

NeVeR

Hi all,

I just got my first diesel car.. i've had 3/4 petrol before this..

Is there anything I need to know or should be doing differently ?

Before anyone says it I know the fuel is different

Do they require servicing more / less / same amount ?

thanks.

Atlantic Dawn

In very cold weather you have to wait for the glow plugs to heat up, this will be detailed in the manual, normally a glow plug warning light in the dash that you have to wait to go out before starting.

They usually require more expensive servicing as the diesel filter needs to be changed.

If yours has a DPF which it most likely does you will need to take it for some motorway driving once a week or so or it will clog up if your just taking it for short runs locally.

shietpilot

Try not to run out of diesel as it may be hard to get the car running again once there is air in the system. You can get rid of the air by continuously cranking the engine but chances are the battery will go flat before that happens

Dia1988

Go on then, tell us what car you got......take us out of our suspense!

NeVeR

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

In very cold weather you have to wait for the glow plugs to heat up, this will be detailed in the manual, normally a glow plug warning light in the dash that you have to wait to go out before starting.

They usually require more expensive servicing as the diesel filter needs to be changed.

If yours has a DPF which it most likely does you will need to take it for some motorway driving once a week or so or it will clog up if your just taking it for short runs locally.

When you say warm you .. i take it you mean start the engine and not move for a few minutes ? .. until the light goes out ?

What does DPE mean ?

I drive on the motorway twice a day for about 20-25km each way.

shietpilot wrote: »

Try not to run out of diesel as it may be hard to get the car running again once there is air in the system. You can get rid of the air by continuously cranking the engine but chances are the battery will go flat before that happens

I won't let it run out.. i've been driving over 10 years.. never ran out of fuel.
thanks.

Dia1988 wrote: »

Go on then, tell us what car you got......take us out of our suspense!

I got a Hyundai i40 Estate 2013 model.

shietpilot

NeVeR wrote: »

When you say warm you .. i take it you mean start the engine and not move for a few minutes ? .. until the light goes out ?

When you turn the key to position 2 you will see a sign like this light up:


You have to wait until this light goes off before you turn your key to position 3 (the starter position).

This is the glow plug light which is on when the glow plugs are on. The glow plugs are used to warm up the combustion chamber because diesel is ignited using hot air and not spark plugs.

CiniO

Also remember not to turn off engine right after arriving at destination. Especially after driving harder at higher revs or motorway driving.
Turbo needs to cool down for a while.
Ideally after arriving, you'd want to leave engine running at idle for 30-60 seconds, sometimes even more before you turn it off.

And during everyday driving, don't be affraid to run at high revs from time to time. Pressing your pedal to the metal, and going up to 4000rpm or more can only do good for your engine.

NeVeR

cheers lads.. loads of great info i had no clue about.

thanks.

Sam Russell

Do not put petrol into the car - it will kill the engine and cost you a lot to get it out again.

Always check the price of the fuel on the pump before you pull the trigger - make sure it is the price of diesel.

zilog_jones

CiniO wrote: »

Also remember not to turn off engine right after arriving at destination. Especially after driving harder at higher revs or motorway driving.
Turbo needs to cool down for a while.
Ideally after arriving, you'd want to leave engine running at idle for 30-60 seconds, sometimes even more before you turn it off.

This is only really a big deal with high performance turbos, I wouldn't really worry too much about it on a typical diesel (I certainly wouldn't leave it a whole minute) - but check what your handbook says about it anyway. I would take it easy when the engine is cold though, as there may not be much oil getting to the turbo until things are up to normal temps.

You might have to think differently about gear changes (assuming manual), as high revs in a diesel may not necessary do much. Check the specifications for what engine speed you get peak torque (could be somewhere low around 2,000 RPM) and work around that.

Greyfoot

CiniO wrote: »

Also remember not to turn off engine right after arriving at destination. Especially after driving harder at higher revs or motorway driving.
Turbo needs to cool down for a while.
Ideally after arriving, you'd want to leave engine running at idle for 30-60 seconds, sometimes even more before you turn it off.

And during everyday driving, don't be affraid to run at high revs from time to time. Pressing your pedal to the metal, and going up to 4000rpm or more can only do good for your engine.

It is unnecessary for a modern diesel car, as fully synthetic oils will not coke up easily, just service the car on time and it`ll be grand. Reaching destination would also mean that the engine is running on low revs during parking and commuting, no need for additional idling, just my 2c.

Edit: An i40 diesel has its usable torque between 2k-4k approx and so has no real danger of over revving as there is no point.
Edit 2: ^Beat me

micks_address

shietpilot wrote: »

When you turn the key to position 2 you will see a sign like this light up:


You have to wait until this light goes off before you turn your key to position 3 (the starter position).

This is the glow plug light which is on when the glow plugs are on. The glow plugs are used to warm up the combustion chamber because diesel is ignited using hot air and not spark plugs.

I'm not sure you need to do this with newer diesels?

shietpilot

micks_address wrote: »

I'm not sure you need to do this with newer diesels?

You do.

aujopimur

I would replace oil and filter at shorter intervals than recommended, it's €50/€60 well spent.

pa990

this goes for both petrol and diesel.

If you have an auto start /stop system on your car.
Turn it off

or you will be buying a new alternator sooner than you would expect.

CiniO

zilog_jones wrote: »

This is only really a big deal with high performance turbos, I wouldn't really worry too much about it on a typical diesel (I certainly wouldn't leave it a whole minute) - but check what your handbook says about it anyway.

On my i-CTDI Civic, manual says to keep engine running for a while on idle revs before tuning off.
What I normally do depends on driving.
F.e. if I park at home, I usually can drive at low speed a low revs (around 1500) through my estate for a minute, so as turbo doesn't really spin fast below 1600-1700 revs, then I normally would turn off engine right away.

But after driving at 3000rpm or higher for a while, or after accelerating hard few times up to 4000rpm and then parking instantly, I'd wait a minute or two before switching engine off.

I would take it easy when the engine is cold though, as there may not be much oil getting to the turbo until things are up to normal temps.

That's a valid point.
I'd normally try not to exceed 1500rpm for first few hundred meters of driving so turbo doesn't start spinning at all. Then after a minut, I'd slowly start reaching around 2000rpm without much acceleration. After 3-4 minutes I'd generally start using power normally, and then full power with pedal to the metal and revs reaching 4000-45000rpm at around 10 minutes after starting the engine. Maybe bit longer at winter when it takes longer for the engine to warm up.

You might have to think differently about gear changes (assuming manual), as high revs in a diesel may not necessary do much. Check the specifications for what engine speed you get peak torque (could be somewhere low around 2,000 RPM) and work around that.

Sometimes it's better to accelerate in lower gear at higher revs, just for the sake of saving extra pressure on clutch.
F.e. accelerating at around 3500rpm on 3rd gear, would be much softer for a clutch than accelerating at 1900rpm on 5th gear at the same speed, even if acceleration seems comparable.

CIP4

CiniO wrote: »

That's a valid point.
I'd normally try not to exceed 1500rpm for first few hundred meters of driving so turbo doesn't start spinning at all. Then after a minut, I'd slowly start reaching around 2000rpm without much acceleration. After 3-4 minutes I'd generally start using power normally, and then full power with pedal to the metal and revs reaching 4000-45000rpm at around 10 minutes after starting the engine. Maybe bit longer at winter when it takes longer for the engine to warm up.

Once the engine is running the turbo is spinning to some extent. It doesn't not spin under 1500 revs and then all of a sudden start spinning when you go over 1500 revs as there is exhaust gases produced regardless. But obviously the speed it spins at varies a lot as you've said.

But other than that I agree with what your saying. I drive mine easy when it's cold keep the revs down as its not good for the engine or turbo to be driving it hard when the oil isn't up to temperature. And I agree with you about either driving it easy just before turning it off or letting it idle for a minute that's a good point. Small things but they help the engine and turbo out big time.

CiniO

CIP4 wrote: »

Once the engine is running the turbo is spinning to some extent. It doesn't not spin under 1500 revs and then all of a sudden start spinning when you go over 1500 revs as there is exhaust gases produced regardless. But obviously the speed it spins at varies a lot as you've said.

THat's true, but I think there is kinda magical border when turbo actually starts revving full speed.

I think below 1500rpm, turbo is always idling, no matter how hard you accelerate.
And then from around 1600-1700rpm it starts spinning really fast if your use full acceleration, or moderately if you accelerate gently.

So in example, if I'm driving at 1000rpm and suddenly press gas to the floor.
Engine revs go up, but until 1500rpm turbo won't accelerate at all (still be idling), and then around 1600rpm it will jump into full speed it can spin.

Would that be right?

delly

I'd say the glowplug is something that most of the newer generation of diesel drivers are not aware of. I had a caddy van about 15 years ago that started the process when you unlocked it, iirc. Surprised that there isn't something similar in all modern diesels.

CIP4

CiniO wrote: »

THat's true, but I think there is kinda magical border when turbo actually starts revving full speed.

I think below 1500rpm, turbo is always idling, no matter how hard you accelerate.
And then from around 1600-1700rpm it starts spinning really fast if your use full acceleration, or moderately if you accelerate gently.

So in example, if I'm driving at 1000rpm and suddenly press gas to the floor.
Engine revs go up, but until 1500rpm turbo won't accelerate at all (still be idling), and then around 1600rpm it will jump into full speed it can spin.

Would that be right?

I think you are right in what your saying at really low revs the turbo is spinning slowly just ticking over because the exhaust gas flow rate is not that high. So if you floor it at that point the air inlet throttle body allows maximum air intake however there is lag as the turbo is effectively waiting for the exhaust pressure to be high enough to drive the turbo turbine fast. Whereas at higher revs if you accelerate hard then as the turbo is already spinning fast there is no real lag and it speeds up almost instantly. That's the way I'd look at it anyway.

zilog_jones

micks_address wrote: »

I'm not sure you need to do this with newer diesels?

All diesels have glow plugs, but the conditions for pre-heating depends on the engine. My car isn't particularly modern ('02 Peugeot 406 HDi - early common rail diesel), but won't do any pre-heating unless it's below zero. I see the glow plug light maybe once or twice a year.

There are also conditions for heating after the engine has started, but generally the light won't show that.

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

THat's true, but I think there is kinda magical border when turbo actually starts revving full speed.

I think below 1500rpm, turbo is always idling, no matter how hard you accelerate.

Turbo does not have a magic break... It spins when there are enough high energy exhaust gases. It means it will spin up anytime when you boot the car, regardless if it is 1000 or 4000rpm.

It will not spin when you're driving with constant 4000rpm, but with very little pressure on the throttle, exp. driving downhill.

CiniO

grogi wrote: »

Turbo does not have a magic break... It spins when there are enough high energy exhaust gases. It means it will spin up anytime when you boot the car, regardless if it is 1000 or 4000rpm.

It will not spin when you're driving with constant 4000rpm, but with very little pressure on the throttle, exp. driving downhill.

Well, I might be wrong, but I think there is some magical rpm barrier, below which turbo doesn't spin even if I accelerate fully. It's just idling.
For my car this seems to be around 1600-1700rpm.

whippet

pa990 wrote: »

this goes for both petrol and diesel.

If you have an auto start /stop system on your car.
Turn it off

or you will be buying a new alternator sooner than you would expect.

really?

i'm after going over 200,000km with my car which has a stop/start feature and no issues? have you any links to support your fear?

pred racer

Just don't drive like an auld wan all the time and you will be grand

And completely ignore all that turbo nonsense, unless you tend to arrive at your destination with the engine bouncing off the limiter :P

Don't buy cheapo diesel!

grogi

pa990 wrote: »

this goes for both petrol and diesel.

If you have an auto start /stop system on your car.
Turn it off

or you will be buying a new alternator sooner than you would expect.

Alternator?! Do you mind explaining the reasoning here?

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

Well, I might be wrong, but I think there is some magical rpm barrier, below which turbo doesn't spin even if I accelerate fully. It's just idling.
For my car this seems to be around 1600-1700rpm.

Lack of torque at the low rpms comes from the control unit not pushing full doses of fuel. I guess this is done to avoid heavy torsional vibration and save the DMF from taking to much stress.

mickdw

zilog_jones wrote: »

All diesels have glow plugs, but the conditions for pre-heating depends on the engine. My car isn't particularly modern ('02 Peugeot 406 HDi - early common rail diesel), but won't do any pre-heating unless it's below zero. I see the glow plug light maybe once or twice a year.

There are also conditions for heating after the engine has started, but generally the light won't show that.

Yes we got a very early hdi 406 new in 1999. If I remember right, glow plug light was not mentioned whatsoever in handbook
Most current cars or at least ones without a turn key to start do their own thing in that you give the start command then the car delays starting until heated.

rex-x

shietpilot wrote: »

You do.

You really don't, any semi modern commonrail diesel will start perfectly without glow plugs even fitted. They are used nowadays purely for emissions unless the weather is beyond -10 celcius.

CiniO

pred racer wrote: »

And completely ignore all that turbo nonsense, unless you tend to arrive at your destination with the engine bouncing off the limiter :P

Any reasons to ignore that?

colm_mcm

Throw a hi viz vest on the parcel shelf

mickdw

colm_mcm wrote: »

Throw a hi viz vest on the parcel shelf

Ah now. There are enough unmarked i40s to looking out for without adding to them.

shietpilot

rex-x wrote: »

You really don't, any semi modern commonrail diesel will start perfectly without glow plugs even fitted. They are used nowadays purely for emissions unless the weather is beyond -10 celcius.

Bollo*ks. My Focus had 1 bad glow plug and idled like a bag of spanners until it warmed up last September. I don't even want to imagine what it would sound like on a cold start in the winter.

rex-x

shietpilot wrote: »

Bollo*ks. My Focus had 1 bad glow plug and idled like a bag of spanners until it warmed up last September. I don't even want to imagine what it would sound like on a cold start in the winter.

What age was it? This is a well known fact, some don't even have glow plugs fitted at all anymore from the factory. I work on these engines every day, this is not just regurgitating some random internet information.

My diesel race engine, based on a 2000 Peugeot HDi engine hasn't even got a glow plug controller and is perfectly happy to start and run smoothly at any temp we see. And thats almost 20 year old tech, the compression is high enough to create the required heat.

shietpilot

rex-x wrote: »

What age was it? This is a well known fact, some don't even have glow plugs fitted at all anymore from the factory. I work on these engines every day, this is not just regurgitating some random internet information.

My diesel race engine, based on a 2000 Peugeot HDi engine hasn't even got a glow plug controller and is perfectly happy to start and run smoothly at any temp we see. And thats almost 20 year old tech, the compression is high enough to create the required heat.

It's an 07 build Focus. I know it will start without glow plugs but that's no reason to not let the glow plugs warm up and have the engine running badly for the first minute not burning diesel completely.

Hellrazer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Do not put petrol into the car - it will kill the engine and cost you a lot to get it out again.
l.

It wont "kill" the engine.A fuel filter change,drain the petrol and the car will be good as new again.
In that 1.7d ive never seen any damage due to wrong fueling.

The worst damage it will do is to your wallet when youre charged a fortune to get it taken out!!!

pred racer

CiniO wrote: »

Any reasons to ignore that?

Because unless you park your car with your foot welded to the floor, your turbo has already spun down.
Some really high performance yokes need a timer to cool them down after you stop, the rest of us don't!

pred racer

pred racer wrote: »

unless you tend to arrive at your destination with the engine bouncing off the limiter

pred racer wrote: »

Because unless you park your car with your foot welded to the floor

Dunno why, but the wording of those two posts has me in stitches here!

Sam Russell

Hellrazer wrote: »

It wont "kill" the engine.A fuel filter change,drain the petrol and the car will be good as new again.
In that 1.7d ive never seen any damage due to wrong fueling.

The worst damage it will do is to your wallet when youre charged a fortune to get it taken out!!!

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/what-to-do-if-you-put-petrol-in-the-tank-of-a-diesel-car-29709073.html

The difference between diesel and petrol is that diesel is an oil - that is a lubricant - while petrol is an oil solvent and has no lubrication properties.

So petrol removes all lubrication from the fuel pump and causes metal on metal contact which cause wear and fragments of metal to pass into the rest of the fuel system. This causes problems with the injectors and rapidly causes enough damage to the engine to require replacement.

Much of this might be scare tactics by some service providers but these warnings are universal across the internet. Anything over 5 litres requires significant action. With 5 litres you will get away with filling with diesel and topping up as often as possible.

Yes, it does damage your wallet significantly.

grogi

pred racer wrote: »

Because unless you park your car with your foot welded to the floor, your turbo has already spun down.
Some really high performance yokes need a timer to cool them down after you stop, the rest of us don't!

It is not about spinning down. Turbo does have load all the time - it constantly compresses the air - and once the hot side stops receiving power, it slows down almost immediately.

It is about cooling it down. IIRC in a diesel with working EGR exhaust gases get upto around 500*C (with blanked EGR even hotter) and that's the temp the hot side will get if you drive dynamically. If you stop the oil circulation when the turbo is still hot, the oil starts to boil and oxidizes, sludge produced and lubrication channels get clogged. As a result the bearings start to work dry.

This problem is even more serious in turbocharged petrols, when the exhaust gases are much hotter, like 800*C and even more...

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/tools/download.aspx?t=document&r=105&d=327

grogi

NeVeR wrote: »

Hi all,

I just got my first diesel car.. i've had 3/4 petrol before this..

Is there anything I need to know or should be doing differently ?

Before anyone says it I know the fuel is different

Do they require servicing more / less / same amount ?

thanks.

Few things from uncle Billy:
- service on time, with correct oil. Forget about the SAE specs (like 5W30), you need oil approved for your engine type. Check your manual. Using wrong oil leads to huge ash residue in the DPF and blocks it very fast.
- cool the turbo down. See discussion above
- don't accelerate hard from low rpms - kills the DMF
- if you drive mainly around town, give it a faster spin of around 20-30 mins once a week to allow passive DPF regeneration.
- when hot, use full potential of the engine - this allows the variable geometry turbo to work and prevents the parts getting jammed.
- if you notice the engine is working weirdly when idle - higher revolutions, much higher consumption, probably mirrors and windows heating on - it is active DPF regeneration. Don't switch the car off, but let the process finish. Take her for a spin if you can for ~10 mins, but it should finish stationary as well. This might have weird side effects - like some smoke from the pipe, a lot of heat from the undercarriage etc.

crasy dash

Hate to jump in on this thread but how do you know if your car is doing a dpf regeneration?

Hellrazer

Sam Russell wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/what-to-do-if-you-put-petrol-in-the-tank-of-a-diesel-car-29709073.html

The difference between diesel and petrol is that diesel is an oil - that is a lubricant - while petrol is an oil solvent and has no lubrication properties.

So petrol removes all lubrication from the fuel pump and causes metal on metal contact which cause wear and fragments of metal to pass into the rest of the fuel system. This causes problems with the injectors and rapidly causes enough damage to the engine to require replacement.

Yes, it does damage your wallet significantly.

Im specifically talk about i40s which is what car this thread is about.
Ive had lots of them in the worshop and you will get away with a fuel filter change and drain.

Now ive also seen other brands where the damage was in the thousands.

Hyundais are a lot more forgiving than other marques.

CiniO

pred racer wrote: »

Because unless you park your car with your foot welded to the floor, your turbo has already spun down.

So, it still needs oil circulation to cool down.

Some really high performance yokes need a timer to cool them down after you stop, the rest of us don't!

Rest of us might not need a timer, because we don't need to cool it down for 5 minutes, but we still should if we care about the turbo.

Otherwise car manuals wouldn't be recommending to wait on idle before turning engine off for the sake of the turbo.

grogi

crasy dash wrote: »

Hate to jump in on this thread but how do you know if your car is doing a dpf regeneration?

Passive - you don't. There are no symptoms, it just happens. Nothing to worry about.

Active - you'll be able see it in idle, but not when in traffic. There are a few indications:

• increased consumption in idle - typically you'll see ~0.6l/h, but during regeneration it will go up to even 3l/h.
• higher revolutions in idle - typically you'd get around 800rpm, during this process they go up to 1000-1100rpm
• all electric heaters will be on (even if the controls on the dash don't reveal it). Mirrors, rear window, front window (if heated) etc. This is done to increase the load on the alternator and the engine
• you might observe the smoke from the pipe, weird smells, heat coming from under the car...

.

fancy pigeon

shietpilot wrote: »

Bollo*ks. My Focus had 1 bad glow plug and idled like a bag of spanners until it warmed up last September. I don't even want to imagine what it would sound like on a cold start in the winter.

I have a 2.8di engine in my garage with no provisions for glow plugs (Sofim 8140.43c if you want to check it up)

My merc cdi starts without glows, no running issues, no abnormal clatters. All glow plugs have failed on it

Or my tractor, IH 574 is a di engine with no glows at all (IH d-239 if you want to look that up)

A direct injection engine does not need glows to ignite on cold as it is injected directly into the cylinder, not a pre combustion chamber, which usually has a less efficient ignition method but is quieter due to its design

You have a lot to learn about diesels young man, listen to wise people like rex-x

shietpilot

fancy pigeon wrote: »

You have a lot to learn about diesels young man, listen to wise people like rex-x

Why listen to someone on the internet when I saw the effects myself? Good hearing is key here Maybe it's a different case for your engine but I'm sharing my experience with the 1.8 Lynx engine.

Jesus.

CiniO wrote: »

Also remember not to turn off engine right after arriving at destination..

I wouldn't mind that a'tall

DakarVert

shietpilot wrote: »

Bollo*ks. My Focus had 1 bad glow plug and idled like a bag of spanners until it warmed up last September. I don't even want to imagine what it would sound like on a cold start in the winter.

My glow plugs don't come on until 0 or below.
Starts and idles fine if it's 1 or 20 degrees.

1.6PSA


Don't skimp on servicing OP. (Mine says every 9k, I do it at 6k)

shietpilot

DakarVert wrote: »

My glow plugs don't come on until 0 or below.
Starts and idles fine if it's 1 or 20 degrees.

1.6PSA

The 1.6 HDi lump uses glow plugs for DPF regeneration. The glow plugs are also on for a good few minutes on every start to reduce emissions.

Just because the glow plug light is off, doesn't mean the glow plugs are off.

DakarVert

shietpilot wrote: »

The 1.6 HDi lump uses glow plugs for DPF regeneration. The glow plugs are also on for a good few minutes on every start to reduce emissions.

Just because the glow plug light is off, doesn't mean the glow plugs are off.

Mine doesn't or has never had a DPF.