Mr gay Ireland HIV story

normaldude

Just read the tale of how mr gay Ireland been HIV and hoe it has effected his career and life, it a good read and a sad story how it has limited him. But the thing I didn't read was how he got HIV? Was it from unprotected group sex, from a sauna, or just pure hard luck from a once off unprotected encounter? I think panti bliss has been slow to tell these details too. With HIV on the rise with gay men in Ireland surely these and the details that young guys should be frightened into always having safe sex which clearly is not happening, what do people think?

Ten of Swords

Article (Irish Independent)

A sad story, ultimately this happened because of an incredibly naive understanding of the risks of unprotected sex. The whole "it won't happen to me" attitude at work again. I found this quote astounding;

I actually didn’t know HIV even existed in Ireland

That said I am glad that he is making the most out of life, is offering support and understanding to others in a similar situation and with any luck his college course will help him to educate other young people about HIV. I do hope he gets to follow his dreams even if he cannot get residency in Australia/NZ now.

Previous Thread on this topic

normaldude wrote: »

Was it from unprotected group sex, from a sauna, or just pure hard luck from a once off unprotected encounter? I think panti bliss has been slow to tell these details too.

Not relevant at all, they have disclosed their status and that is all they should do. Who (if known) and when is their own business unless it's a public safety risk such as contaminated blood products etc.

normaldude

Yea I know it's there business, it's just I was for an std test recently and felt v uncomfortable about the questions they asked about my sex life, but chatting to the doctor she told HIV is v treatable but still a terrible viruses which requires lifelong treatment, no point normalising it, I guess the point I was making is if people shared the details of infection like you would to the doctor in the std clinic it might save some young or naive people the effects of having to live with the limitations of HIV!

Annasopra

The amount of people on grindr, gaydar etc looking for bareback it really doesn't surprise me.


I think our efforts to stop the growth of hiv amongst msm have been poor the last few years.

daveyeh

normaldude wrote: »

Just read the tale of how mr gay Ireland been HIV and hoe it has effected his career and life, it a good read and a sad story how it has limited him. But the thing I didn't read was how he got HIV? Was it from unprotected group sex, from a sauna, or just pure hard luck from a once off unprotected encounter? I think panti bliss has been slow to tell these details too. With HIV on the rise with gay men in Ireland surely these and the details that young guys should be frightened into always having safe sex which clearly is not happening, what do people think?

Maybe he doesn't know himself.

L1011

Awful, almost abstinence only sex education in schools is definitely a problem also. We never had anything better but we did have severe media scares until the mid 1990s; whereas those are gone and now we get people who end up thinking there's no major STI risk because they simply haven't been told better

It may have improved in the last few years but that's not much help for those already in their 20s; and if it hasn't its still going to be a huge issue going forward.

I've heard "I've only been with girls before" given as an excuse for not wanting to use a condom also - no idea if that's widespread though

baby and crumble

Why on earth should anyone be expected to disclose details like that? Seriously, what difference does it make?

normaldude

Because it might save people getting infected, it obvious there an issue with gay men having casual unprotected sex, and stories like this don't tell the real tale, get to the real details and it will def save people becoming HIV positive, I can't understand how the gay community can be so naive, apparently panti is the queen of Ireland yet is HIV positive is that a good role model?

Annasopra

normaldude wrote: »

Because it might save people getting infected, it obvious there an issue with gay men having casual unprotected sex, and stories like this don't tell the real tale, get to the real details and it will def save people becoming HIV positive, I can't understand how the gay community can be so naive, apparently panti is the queen of Ireland yet is HIV positive is that a good role model?

What do you mean naive?

baby and crumble

normaldude wrote: »

Because it might save people getting infected, it obvious there an issue with gay men having casual unprotected sex, and stories like this don't tell the real tale, get to the real details and it will def save people becoming HIV positive, I can't understand how the gay community can be so naive, apparently panti is the queen of Ireland yet is HIV positive is that a good role model?

But why do people have to disclose how they became positive though? It's nobody's business, and I don't think it would make a difference. It's very personal what you're asking them to disclose. Would you like your medical or sexual history splashed about the place? Because that's what you're demanding. I agree that there does seems to be a lack of sex education in the community but frankly there's a lack of sex education in the country thanks to the Churches interference in the schools, refusing to teach sex education and in particular LGBT sex education.

seamus

normaldude wrote: »

apparently panti is the queen of Ireland yet is HIV positive is that a good role model?

Why would being HIV+ make someone a poor role model?

normaldude

The point I was making came from me in the std clinic and been asked all these questions, was I top or bottom, did I take and give bare, did I give or take oral sex, how many partners had I had, I think if these details available would they not highlight the issues with why gay guys have increasing HIV figures. The community is naive in that it is not highlighting the obvious bad practices of the community that has increasing HIV. I think a good role model would tell all the details of there sex life, did they get HIV from bareback sex, oral, was panti ****ing bare for years or was it just bad luck that's the question is like to know

Ten of Swords

normaldude wrote: »

if these details available would they not highlight the issues with why gay guys have increasing HIV figures

No, that is completely absurd. The STD clinic asked you those questions as an assessment of risk specific to you, that is their job.

The number of partners someone has had, whether they are top or bottom and whether they give or receive oral sex is not something anyone should be forced to make public and would be of no benefit to anyone else. There are plenty of people that are extremely promiscuous and have pretty adventurous appetites but they practice safe sex every single time so their risk is as low as they can make it.

Forcing the particulars of their sex life in the public domain is not fair.

12Phase

Tragic story.

People have to take precautions and wear condoms (correctly). It's really as simple as that.

I am not referring to the guy in the article as I know nothing about him, but I think there's an issue in Ireland and in Britain with alcohol induced carelessness.

The usual approach to being nervous about picking someone up here is to get blind drunk. That's potentially lethal if you then have no inhibitions and end up having unsafe sex.

I have a feeling that Ireland's massive alcohol problem (which we often don't even admit to or get defensive about) is likely to play a big role in this.

normaldude

normaldude wrote: »

I think a good role model would tell all the details of there sex life

This is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read on this forum.

jobbridge4life

He didn't even know HIV existed in this country? I ****ing despair for the future.

12Phase

jobbridge4life wrote: »

He didn't even know HIV existed in this country? I ****ing despair for the future.

That shows a fairly horrific lack of sex ed in this country.
It's incredibly patchy from everything I've heard and certainly from what I've experienced myself.

We were taught the rhythm method! I am not kidding (and that was in the early 2000s).
We also had 'marriage advisory' classes - as in a class discussing how to have a good marriage. This was given by a catholic priest who would obviously know everything about stable marriages.

Someone asked about gay relationships and got "oh they're fine. We're not afraid of homosexuality at all." He then looked somewhat like a deer caught in headlights and quickly moved back to stable marriages discussion...

and that's as far as it went!!

Annasopra

normaldude wrote: »

The point I was making came from me in the std clinic and been asked all these questions, was I top or bottom, did I take and give bare, did I give or take oral sex, how many partners had I had, I think if these details available would they not highlight the issues with why gay guys have increasing HIV figures. The community is naive in that it is not highlighting the obvious bad practices of the community that has increasing HIV. I think a good role model would tell all the details of there sex life, did they get HIV from bareback sex, oral, was panti ****ing bare for years or was it just bad luck that's the question is like to know

To be honest I don't care at all about the details of people's sex lives. I don't need to know them and I certainly don't think needs to tell all to be a role model. For sure we probably do need more education on things like whether topping or bottoming is more risky, when to use PREP or PEP, where PREP or PEP are available, what to do in emergencies, which types of lube and condoms to use but we most certainly do not in my view need everyone who is HIV positive in the country giving us exact details of their sex lives.

12Phase

I just think we need to be very careful that there's now a HUGE mismatch between the education system and where Irish society is on all of these issues.

You've >97% of schools and actually all bar about 3 secondary schools owned by religious organisations (mostly the catholic church) which basically has one policy on sex : get married and only have it with one person ever or you'll got to HELL!

That's not really a very practical point of view to take given that very few people actually take that advice at face value and that psychological, physiological and emotional needs will pretty much ensure most of us don't come anywhere near that 'ideal'.

So, I just wonder how exactly we're supposed to have a functioning sex ed system in that context and if we need much more of a role for online media, television and so on in Ireland than other countries might where the schools aren't as conservative.

We still have stuff like this going on FFS : http://www.thejournal.ie/sex-education-sellotape-1310906-Feb2014/

jobbridge4life

12Phase wrote: »

That shows a fairly horrific lack of sex ed in this country.
It's incredibly patchy from everything I've heard and certainly from what I've experienced myself.

We were taught the rhythm method! I am not kidding (and that was in the early 2000s).
We also had 'marriage advisory' classes - as in a class discussing how to have a good marriage. This was given by a catholic priest who would obviously know everything about stable marriages.

Someone asked about gay relationships and got "oh they're fine. We're not afraid of homosexuality at all." He then looked somewhat like a deer caught in headlights and quickly moved back to stable marriages discussion...

and that's as far as it went!!

Eh... no and double no. I attended secondary school in the mind 00s. A Catholic school. In the heart of rural Ireland.I still knew what ****ing HIV was and that it afflicted people in Ireland especially MSM individuals. It wasn't difficult, in fact it required literally zero effort you just had to, you know, listen to general societal discourse.

12Phase

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Eh... no and double no. I attended secondary school in the mind 00s. A Catholic school. In the heart of rural Ireland.I still knew what ****ing HIV was and that it afflicted people in Ireland especially MSM individuals. It wasn't difficult, in fact it required literally zero effort you just had to, you know, listen to general societal discourse.

That's you though and your experience.
A lot of people aren't that clued in. You'd be amazed!

Bear in mind the *average* IQ is 100 (that's how it works - 100 is mean norming score) and when you get into the 90s you're talking about people who may not be all that clued in at all.

Just assuming that everyone somehow absorbs information in a sensible way is a really bad place to start from with anything to do with public health.

Considering you've had things like a boycott of childhood vaccines based on absolutely no scientific proof whatsoever and lack of 'fear' of diseases that current generations hadn't ever encountered because of vaccines. If someone hasn't come face-to-face with HIV in a particular country, they're quite likely to do the same head-in-sand thing and assume it's not an issue to worry about or to do anything to avoid.

I wouldn't really take it as a given that people absorb anything about societal discourse. Most people might, but a significant percentage will pay absolutely no attention whatsoever, either because they're not really smart enough to do so or because they're just not paying any attention at all.

You absolutely have to have proper sexual health education. It's important for public safety and prevention of disease spread across the population. It's as simple as that and in Ireland it's still tied up with a lot of nonsense.

Actually, not just in Ireland, in most English speaking countries there are still major hang ups about sex ed that don't exist in a lot of continental European countries anymore.

I experienced both the Irish and French systems and certainly in the school I went to in Ireland, we had basically no information on any of those things. Sure, we could pick them up online or in social discourse but there was nothing out there.

I would have my doubts that very many people you ask here would know anything about HIV emergency treatment if you think you'd been in contact with the virus for example.

I was aware of that in France because it was actually taught in school and we were given information about where to go and who to talk to if anything like that ever should happen.

Everything we got in Ireland in the same context (in my experience anyway) was all about crisis pregnancy stuff and some very badly and awkwardly explained info about contraception. Mostly we just had no info whatsoever from any official channels and I have spoken to others here who have said exactly the same. There was just nothing other than what you might have picked up on TV, online or from general discussion.

That's why I think in Ireland if the schools are tied in religious knots, we need to take the campaign online and on TV much more than other countries might where they can rely on the education system to educate about matters like this.
In the Irish context it seems to me that it is totally hit and miss depending on what school you're in and who happens to be teaching these things.

You could get progressive modernity or Sister Assumpta's guide to chastity depending on who you encounter.

To just assume that everything in Ireland is absolutely fine about these things or that there's any kind of consistency is sticking your head in the sand.

I would also argue that this problem is going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better.

We also have very poor access to STI testing etc etc compared to most developed countries. That absolutely has to change.

RDM_83 again

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Eh... no and double no. I attended secondary school in the mind 00s. A Catholic school. In the heart of rural Ireland.I still knew what ****ing HIV was and that it afflicted people in Ireland especially MSM individuals. It wasn't difficult, in fact it required literally zero effort you just had to, you know, listen to general societal discourse.

The whole bashing the Church for this is beyond retarded I found out last year that 1 in 7 gay men in London are HIV positive, that's as bad as African countries and England (london even more so ) is no bastion of the Church and that figure is probably higher than the treatable diseases in the straight community.

I'm obviously not au fait with the gay scene but would it a controversial move to highlight just how vastly more dangerous anal sex is (seriously check out risk of transmission figures) because maybe what's happened is people perceive the risk as less because culture focusses on the general risk rather than the specific because they don't want to demonize

12Phase

The UK isn't a whole lot better. There were serious issues getting good quality education into place there over the decades. Just thankfully the media largely took over the role. Channel 4 and co have a lot to be thanked for!

There's an anglophone problem with prudishness in general. Goes across Ireland, the UK, and the US in a huge way (even more so).

All I know is that if people don't start taking precautions seriously (and there is no evidence that it is the case) this problem is going to just get a hell of a lot worse very quickly.

So a major and very serious campaign of education needs to take place. It should probably be in the mainstream media.

What I have seen here is kinda tongue-in-cheek condom ads here 'Jonnie's got ya covered' and so on..
It needs to be a lot less subtle than that.

RDM_83 again

12Phase wrote: »

The UK isn't a whole lot better. There were serious issues getting good quality education into place there over the decades. Just thankfully the media largely took over the role. Channel 4 and co have a lot to be thanked for!

There's an anglophone problem with prudishness in general. Goes across Ireland, the UK, and the US in a huge way (even more so).

All I know is that if people don't start taking precautions seriously (and there is no evidence that it is the case) this problem is going to just get a hell of a lot worse very quickly.

So a major and very serious campaign of education needs to take place. It should probably be in the mainstream media.

What I have seen here is kinda tongue-in-cheek condom ads here 'Jonnie's got ya covered' and so on..
It needs to be a lot less subtle than that.

But aren't the rates in the UK actually getting worse, I worked a job beside a big gay bathhouse well the building was big (actually closed now in the redevelopment of area) that's hardly the sign of a prudish society

12Phase

I wouldn't really think that's much of an indicator of anything tbh.

If you've lived in other societies that are more open about these issues in general, you'd know what I mean. There are still hangups about discussing anything sex related without double-entendre and giggles amongst a very large part of society in any English speaking country I've lived in.

Ireland's improving, but its still not very open. The US still has difficulty with the word "toilet" in the mainstream media, never mind discussing sexuality and where things are discussed they're often with an air of judgement and condemnation to them too.

The UK has improved in leaps and bounds too, but it's still an issue that people are highly awkward about compared to how things are discussed in a lot of continental countries that are genuinely more open about issues like this.

Put it this way, in France it was quite common for condoms to be bought with the household shopping when they'd people who were sexually active in the household. That's still a bit of a taboo here for most people I would suspect.

I just think we need to actually have a much more open discussion about the whole area in Ireland. It's discussed, but it's just not anywhere near as open as it should be.

The other massive issue is lack of services. The HSE is stretched beyond breaking point and priority hasn't been given to STI related stuff in a way it would be in quite a lot of other states.

baby and crumble

RDM_83 again wrote: »

The whole bashing the Church for this is beyond retarded I found out last year that 1 in 7 gay men in London are HIV positive, that's as bad as African countries and England (london even more so ) is no bastion of the Church and that figure is probably higher than the treatable diseases in the straight community.

I'm obviously not au fait with the gay scene but would it a controversial move to highlight just how vastly more dangerous anal sex is (seriously check out risk of transmission figures) because maybe what's happened is people perceive the risk as less because culture focusses on the general risk rather than the specific because they don't want to demonize

Firstly, please don't use the word "retarded", it's really not cool.

Secondly, proportionally more straight people have anal sex than gay men. You'd be surprised how few gay men actually have anal sex.

Thirdly, I'd love to know where your 1 in 7 gay men stat is from because that seems astonishingly high. Do you have the reference?

Ten of Swords

RDM_83 again wrote: »

But aren't the rates in the UK actually getting worse

Yes, the UK rates are getting worse. According to the NAT there were 3,360 MSM diagnosed with HIV in 2014 compared to 2,243 in 2004. In Ireland the overall HIV rate has been fairly static with the annual diagnosis being 358 in 2004 and 377 in 2014. The problem is apparent when you break it down;

MSM (men who have sex with men): 2004 (17% of HIV infections) to 2014 (49% of HIV infections)

Heterosexual: 2004 (50% of HIV infections) to 2014 (33% of HIV infections)

PWID (people who inject drugs): 2004 (20% of HIV infections) to 2014 (7% of HIV infections)

RDM_83 again

baby and crumble wrote: »

Firstly, please don't use the word "retarded", it's really not cool.

Secondly, proportionally more straight people have anal sex than gay men. You'd be surprised how few gay men actually have anal sex.

Thirdly, I'd love to know where your 1 in 7 gay men stat is from because that seems astonishingly high. Do you have the reference?

Apologies didn't mean to offend

Its 1 in 8 actually got it slightly wrong, figure is mentioned in this BBC article
www.bbc.com/news/health-31601042
(sure the survey itself can be found with a google but BBC is normally reliable as chose that instead of the daily mail or Standard)

In terms of sexual behaviour maybe that's true in general but there must be a hefty sub set of men who have sex with men in London who engage in very risky behaviour because AFAIK you can't explain that figure away unless your saying they are intravenous drug users!

12Phase

Part of the problem is just the usual youth thing or not thinking it'll never happen to you.
You've a very hard partying generation out there.

It would be interesting to see if the rates are going up across the board or just in particular age ranges

sierraecho

12Phase wrote: »

Part of the problem is just the unusual youth thing or not thinking it'll ever happen to you.
You've a very hard partying generation out there.

I think it's more then just a youth thing and more a modern mindset. All STI detection's are on the rise and it largely has to be down to peoples attitudes also.

It is seen that if you do catch something it can be easily treated by a course of antibiotics, a conversation I've had with some of my friends in late 30's and early 40's.

For the most part HIV is seen as something that only happened in the 80's and 90's and it's all okay now which is a very naive thing to think.

Annasopra

RDM_83 again wrote: »

The whole bashing the Church for this is beyond retarded

Huh? I don't get you there

In Ireland the vast majority of schools have been run by the church. Upto relatively recently because of that religious control sexual education in most schools has been poor and patchy.

Yes the state has failed in it's obligations but a lot of the responsibility for poor sex ed lies at the churches door

Mod comment

Given that the word retard is a pejorative term for people with disabilities please don't use it on this forum.

Annasopra

12Phase wrote: »

Part of the problem is just the usual youth thing or not thinking it'll never happen to you.
You've a very hard partying generation out there.

It would be interesting to see if the rates are going up across the board or just in particular age ranges

Actually in the UK and US there has been a huge growth in STIs amongst older people

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/campaign-to-tackle-soaring-std-rate-among-over-50s-2074219.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/19/opinion/sunday/emanuel-sex-and-the-single-senior.html?_r=0

Ten of Swords

12Phase wrote: »

It would be interesting to see if the rates are going up across the board or just in particular age ranges

The average age of diagnosis is dropping year on year, see for yourself (summary paragraph on page 4. Specific age data for 2014 on page 7)

In the 10 years since 2005, the number of new diagnoses among MSM has increased threefold (from 60 to 183) and the median age at diagnosis has dropped from 37 to 31 years

HSE 2014 Statistics Report

RDM_83 again

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Huh? I don't get you there

In Ireland the vast majority of schools have been run by the church. Upto relatively recently because of that religious control sexual education in most schools has been poor and patchy.

Yes the state has failed in it's obligations but a lot of the responsibility for poor sex ed lies at the churches door

Mod comment

Given that the word retard is a pejorative term for people with disabilities please don't use it on this forum.

But I can point to a place with a pretty similar culture (OK major differences but UK is closest culturally) where there has been extremely little church influence for a long time which has a extremely high rate of HIV among gay men and rising rates among younger people who should be even less influenced.
Which pretty much blows the Church as being the source of the problem away.

Look at the beliefs of posters in this thread that its to do with sexual repression in wider society when in actuality the rates are rising despite society being much more open about sex.

Look at the disbelief when the massively high rates are pointed out.

To an outsider it looks like a community in denial about the scale of the issue that's looking for some external factor to blame.

12Phase

Little Church and conservative influence?

This was entirely driven by the hard right of Christian conservatism.

This is the country that had Section 28 in force from 1988 until 2003 that prevented local authorities (main operator of schools there) from supporting LGBT people at all really.

"shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship"

That put a huge damper on any sexual education focused on gay ppl for a very long time.

The U.K. likes to assume it has a super liberal history and blame little old backwards Ireland's conservatism on the catholic thing. It had a good blast of British style prudish conservatism in it too.

They're far from the Netherlands or Nordic countries when it comes to this stuff. Progress on these issues was hard won in Britain too!

This open mindedness thing is pretty recent there too in many respects.

The Conservative governments weren't called conservative for nothing!

RDM_83 again

12Phase wrote: »

Little Church and conservative influence?

This was entirely driven by the hard right of Christian conservatism.

This is the country that had Section 28 in force from 1988 until 2003 that prevented local authorities (main operator of schools there) from supporting LGBT people at all really.

"shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship"

That put a huge damper on any sexual education focused on gay ppl for a very long time.

The U.K. likes to assume it has a super liberal history and blame little old backwards Ireland's conservatism on the catholic thing. It had a good blast of British style prudish conservatism in it too.

They're far from the Netherlands or Nordic countries when it comes to this stuff. Progress on these issues was hard won in Britain too!

This open mindedness thing is pretty recent there too in many respects.

The Conservative governments weren't called conservative for nothing!

How come the rates have been rising for the last decade and rising among younger people when cultural conservatism is very much declining.
There seems to be a massive blindspots here about what the sources of the issue are if your going to argue that one factor (cultural conservativism) which is in decline is the cause of another factor (HIV rates in gay men) which is increasing, that's called a negative correlation and tells us that the former factor either has no impact or has a negative impact on rates.

Can I ask in general as society in UK and Ireland has became more open (yes we may be less open than some places but we are definitely getting less conservative) and there is better (but probably inadequate) sex ed yet rates of HIV are rising in the gay community and age is dropping, what do the posters in general think the reason is for this rise if its not internal to the community

Annasopra

RDM_83 again wrote: »

But I can point to a place with a pretty similar culture (OK major differences but UK is closest culturally) where there has been extremely little church influence for a long time which has a extremely high rate of HIV among gay men and rising rates among younger people who should be even less influenced.
Which pretty much blows the Church as being the source of the problem away.

Look at the beliefs of posters in this thread that its to do with sexual repression in wider society when in actuality the rates are rising despite society being much more open about sex.

Look at the disbelief when the massively high rates are pointed out.

To an outsider it looks like a community in denial about the scale of the issue that's looking for some external factor to blame.

I don't think anyone is saying the church is the only one to blame at all. I'm not sure if it is fair to say that this is all church bashing either - the undeniable fact is that the church has had a major influence on sex education policy for many decades and because of that many of us received poor sex education in school. Of course that does not mean everyone is the same. As I said it was patchy. I have had heard anecdotal cases of for example strongly pro choice nuns. I think that UK sex education has been poor and patchy too but us pointing out the some of the negative effects of religious influence on education policy simply can't be dismissed as just church bashing!

I think earlier generations here in Ireland did a huge amount of work on this for example Gay Health Action which ran from 1985 to 1989 did a lot of work but actually couldn't get funding because gay male sex was still illegal upto 1993. The Gay Mens Health Service also has done trojan work since 1993. Alternative Miss Ireland raised a huge amount for AIDS and HIV work over decades. There were also great initiatives from other community groups - but actually a lot of the outreach work done by the likes of GMHS simply was withdrawn over the last few years because of funding cuts.

Also there is a major issue of change in attitudes - HIV - once a death sentence that took many lives and rallied many friends into communities became treatable and so younger people and their peers don't see the risks. HIV can be managed and treated. It isn't a death sentence that kills whole generations like it did in the 80s. And so young people are much more willing to take risks than older generations

As an aside I found this incredibly interesting and touching about how survivors have found life so difficult
http://projects.sfchronicle.com/2016/living-with-aids/story/

Ten of Swords

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Can I ask in general as society in UK and Ireland has became more open (yes we may be less open than some places but we are definitely getting less conservative) and there is better (but probably inadequate) sex ed yet rates of HIV are rising in the gay community and age is dropping, what do the posters in general think the reason is for this rise if its not internal to the community

A contributing factor is that 52% of the MSM HIV infections diagnosed in 2014 were in people not born in Ireland (this figure rises to 64% when looking at all infections in 2014, not just MSM). That is clearly a significant factor.

Annasopra

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Can I ask in general as society in UK and Ireland has became more open (yes we may be less open than some places but we are definitely getting less conservative) and there is better (but probably inadequate) sex ed yet rates of HIV are rising in the gay community and age is dropping, what do the posters in general think the reason is for this rise if its not internal to the community

There's meany reasons I think

Here's a few but not an exhaustive list

1 Huge resources went into educating previous generations from the 80s but a lot of these were cut back - The GMHS in Dublin can't actually do a lot of the outreach it used to because of cutbacks
2 The state not taking the issues seriously enough - who remembers those scary ads from the 80s
3 HIV no longer being seen as a death sentence because it can be treated
4 Younger people not engaging in sexual health activism as much as previous generations
5 Barebacking not seen as a risky practice and widely practiced by many
6 LGBT activism too focused on marriage to the exclusion of sexual health

RDM_83 again

Ten of Swords wrote: »

A contributing factor is that 52% of the MSM HIV infections diagnosed in 2014 were in people not born in Ireland (this figure is 64% of the overall total). That is clearly a significant factor.

ah interesting I knew migration was a factor but I thought it was more impacting the heterosexual numbers.

Would the impact be the same in the UK I wonder?Like to me the London figure seems like an anomaly but its accurate and its a big population.

anothernight

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Also there is a major issue of change in attitudes - HIV - once a death sentence that took many lives and rallied many friends into communities became treatable and so younger people and their peers don't see the risks. HIV can be managed and treated. It isn't a death sentence that kills whole generations like it did in the 80s. And so young people are much more willing to take risks than older generations

In my country (Spain), transmission rates were starting to level off back in the early 2000s due to education... only to increase due to changing attitudes. The proportion of infections among MSM is increasing year on year (with heterosexual and needle user infections decreasing in proportion, but not necessarily in numbers). One reason given for this is that the gay community appears to consider HIV just another chronic condition, and not as bad as it used to be. Prevention efforts are switching from simple sex ed and safer sex campaigns, to figuring out how to show these people that despite today's better outcomes, it's really not an infection they should be messing with.


There's also been talks of incorporating rapid HIV testing into standard routine healthcare so that most of the population would be tested at some stage, since about a third of infected people aren't aware of their infections.

12Phase

Possibly because HIV spreads somewhat exponentially. It's actually much harder to get a rate down the higher it goes as there are many more opportunities to get infected.

JupiterKid

Section 28 was a truly disgusting piece of legislation. Produced by the Tory Party - the nasty party and reflected the immediate post-AIDS homophobic backlash.

Thankfully consigned to history.

Bananaleaf

Can I ask - an I'll apologise for my ignorance in advance - but he is unable to get residency for Australia as he is HIV positive. He says same for NZ and Canada, so I guess this is a thing? Just wondering where this sits in relation to prejudice? Because personally, the first thing I thought when I read that was "That sounds like something people would claim is discriminatory" Does anyone know what the justification is behind that and also does that mean you have to be tested for HIV if you are applying for residency? Last question. Is residency one step away from citizenship or effectively the same thing? Does this come down to the cost of having to treat you maybe?

12Phase

You won't get permanent residency with any kind of long term illness that requires expensive treatment. It's more a case of preventing costs than anything else.

Their visa regimes typically want to ensure you'll be a net contributor. It's a bit cold, but that's how they calculate it.

"Their condition would endanger the health or safety of the Canadian population at large; or
Their admission might cause excessive demand on existing social or health services provided by the government.*"

HIV can theoretically hit both of those categories.

One eyed Jack

12Phase wrote: »

I just think we need to be very careful that there's now a HUGE mismatch between the education system and where Irish society is on all of these issues.

You've >97% of schools and actually all bar about 3 secondary schools owned by religious organisations (mostly the catholic church) which basically has one policy on sex : get married and only have it with one person ever or you'll got to HELL!

That's not really a very practical point of view to take given that very few people actually take that advice at face value and that psychological, physiological and emotional needs will pretty much ensure most of us don't come anywhere near that 'ideal'.

So, I just wonder how exactly we're supposed to have a functioning sex ed system in that context and if we need much more of a role for online media, television and so on in Ireland than other countries might where the schools aren't as conservative.

We still have stuff like this going on FFS : http://www.thejournal.ie/sex-education-sellotape-1310906-Feb2014/

Where did you come up with that? That's not on any RSE or SPHE curriculum I'm aware of. I think you just like to think we're a backward little island compared to our European neighbours, but the reality is far from that. The education system in Ireland with regard to relationships and sex education has come on in leaps and bounds from what it was, and there was a report from 2007 which maintained that the issue was not the curriculum, but teachers themselves who didn't have the knowledge to give students a good understanding of sex and sexuality.

Times have changed since then and teachers are much more open about these issues (even in primary schools). The problem is that parents aren't taking their responsibilities seriously and aren't talking to their children about these things, and are withdrawing their children from sex education classes in schools. There has been tremendous work done by organisations like GLEN, BelongTo and SpunOut in the area of educating young people with regard to sex and sexuality, but young people are still more interested in getting their sex 'education' among their peers.

They're becoming more liberal and feeling more liberated, and engaging in behaviours that put them at risk in the very same way as we did when we were their age. They aren't conscientious about safety any more than we were, and the rise in infections are actually due to more infections being detected, as opposed to previous generations where people were either just downright ignorant, or too ashamed to get tested when they suspected an infection.

There are numerous reasons for the rise in HIV among the MSM community in particular with social media apps playing a part in that, and the fact as was mentioned previously that because HIV isn't viewed with the same social stigma it once was, it's not taken as seriously as it once was either. Reducing the stigma of HIV has been somewhat of a double-edged sword.

Bananaleaf

12Phase wrote: »

You won't get permanent residency with any kind of long term illness that requires expensive treatment. It's more a case of preventing costs than anything else.

Their visa regimes typically want to ensure you'll be a net contributor. It's a bit cold, but that's how they calculate it.

"Their condition would endanger the health or safety of the Canadian population at large; or
Their admission might cause excessive demand on existing social or health services provided by the government.*"

HIV can theoretically hit both of those categories.

From someone who gets easily confused, well explained, thank you.

So on your declaration form - are they just taking your word for it that you're not or are they making you get tested for it? Would a simple taking your word for it would be enough as you would be quickly found out were you to present at a hospital for treatment and so long as you don't (and they don't have to subsidise your treatment, but keeping in mind you are potentially infecting others who may very well be residents) and just die, they're okay with that.

Or are they requesting testing so as to minimise the risk to residents? Money is the motivation alright. But is it only money or also the welfare of the residents?

Lastly - is there not an option for these people to be allowed to become resident anyway, but they need to show that they have the means to afford their own treatment? Say you had someone with HIV who could afford his/her own treatment - would that person still be denied access into the country?

Ten of Swords

Bananaleaf wrote: »

From someone who gets easily confused, well explained, thank you.

So on your declaration form - are they just taking your word for it that you're not or are they making you get tested for it?

You will have a general health screening including blood tests with a doctor in Ireland that they choose, this will test for a number of conditions/diseases, HIV is one of these.

12Phase

They usually specify a basic health check that has to get sent in.

Different countries have slightly different processes but it's not a case of taking your word for it. They screen.

Anything that's seriously contagious or anything with a long term economic impact or prevent you working will potentially cause problems.

It's not just HIV but that's usually one that's specified.

anothernight

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There are numerous reasons for the rise in HIV among the MSM community in particular with social media apps playing a part in that, and the fact as was mentioned previously that because HIV isn't viewed with the same social stigma it once was, it's not taken as seriously as it once was either. Reducing the stigma of HIV has been somewhat of a double-edged sword.

With respect, I don't think* anyone's mentioned social stigma in this discussion.
I disagree that reducing the stigma (shame, disgrace, whatever you want to call it) has been a double-edged sword. If anything, reducing the shame has allowed more people to speak out about it. What has happened though is that people have become desensitised after years of medical improvements and campaigns, and some either think that it won't happen to them (young person invincibility syndrome!) or they no longer consider HIV the big bad scary disease.



*I've a bit of wine on me though... I might have missed or misread a few of the posts. :P

One eyed Jack

anothernight wrote: »

With respect, I don't think* anyone's mentioned social stigma in this discussion.
I disagree that reducing the stigma (shame, disgrace, whatever you want to call it) has been a double-edged sword. If anything, reducing the shame has allowed more people to speak out about it. What has happened though is that people have become desensitised after years of medical improvements and campaigns, and some either think that it won't happen to them (young person invincibility syndrome!) or they no longer consider HIV the big bad scary disease.



*I've a bit of wine on me though... I might have missed or misread a few of the posts. :P

Nope, you're spot on, I was paraphrasing from Joey's comments here:

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Also there is a major issue of change in attitudes - HIV - once a death sentence that took many lives and rallied many friends into communities became treatable and so younger people and their peers don't see the risks. HIV can be managed and treated. It isn't a death sentence that kills whole generations like it did in the 80s. And so young people are much more willing to take risks than older generations...

Your second part there though is what I meant by the double edged sword - that yes, people are absolutely talking about HIV more openly and increasing understanding in society of people with HIV and AIDS, but at the same time, people are becoming desensitized in Western societies.