Paying cash for a house

armabelle

Is it possible to buy a house for cash in Ireland...not like bank transfer but in cash in 500 note euro bills? Or would you have to go through a bank?

Hollister11

If the money is legit your fine. But who really has a few hundred K in a cash.

PhoenixParker

Our solicitor would definitely refuse to deal with it. He told us a story of someone who was trying to buy a house with actual cash and how fast he ran away.

I think, if you could find a solicitor willing to handle the sale and a seller willing to take it, you'd need to be very clearly able to show where the cash came from to buy a house. Otherwise the anti-money laundering regs or similar would kick in in some form or other.

armabelle

Hollister11 wrote: »

If the money is legit your fine. But who really has a few hundred K in a cash.

Yes true but maybe I don't like banks or maybe I am worried that someone will get my banking details online and clean me out. Let's say I just want to save in cash and do so for 10 years to buy a house. What and how could I prove that the money is legal in 10 years? What is considered proof that the money is "legit"?

RiseToMe

Hollister11 wrote: »

If the money is legit your fine. But who really has a few hundred K in a cash.

Personally, I know of two people who are fortunate enough to have been in position to do this. One was a very substantial sale, but once you have a paper trail for the money it's fine. In their case anyway

armabelle

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I think, if you could find a solicitor willing to handle the sale and a seller willing to take it, you'd need to be very clearly able to show where the cash came from to buy a house. Otherwise the anti-money laundering regs or similar would kick in in some form or other.

Yes I can understand that. I mean it is risky for someone to accept that amount of cash. But how would you prove your life savings? Like if you saved up over a period of 30 or 20 years in 10 different jobs living in 5 different countries... how could you prove that? I mean maybe you start saving and you dont think about proving it because the amount is low but then over the years... you know what I am saying? What if i have like 100k under my mattress but I never expected it or expected to need to proove it but nevertheless aquired it by all legal means?

Frynge

armabelle wrote: »

Yes true but maybe I don't like banks or maybe I am worried that someone will get my banking details online and clean me out. Let's say I just want to save in cash and do so for 10 years to buy a house. What and how could I prove that the money is legal in 10 years? What is considered proof that the money is "legit"?

From the way you describe it you would have a tough time convincing anyone it was legit, but I suppose for the sake of this thread you could take a photo of the money each month in front of the ticker tape on sky news, maybe.

armabelle

RiseToMe wrote: »

Personally, I know of two people who are fortunate enough to have been in position to do this. One was a very substantial sale, but once you have a paper trail for the money it's fine. In their case anyway

But what kind of a paper trail could you have if you got the money over a lifetime? Perhaps you lived and worked in 5 or more countries for 5 or more employers?

armabelle

Frynge wrote: »

From the way you describe it you would have a tough time convincing anyone it was legit, but I suppose for the sake of this thread you could take a photo of the money each month in front of the ticker tape on sky news, maybe.

hahah that is a cool idea

RiseToMe

armabelle wrote: »

But what kind of a paper trail could you have if you got the money over a lifetime? Perhaps you lived and worked in 5 or more countries for 5 or more employers?

I presume you get payslips, or get paid into a bank even if you withdraw immediately. You could let a ledger. Keep in mind how much money you're allowed to take in cash in and out countries too of you intend on bringing money around the globe.

meeeeh

armabelle wrote: »

But what kind of a paper trail could you have if you got the money over a lifetime? Perhaps you lived and worked in 5 or more countries for 5 or more employers?

And that is exactly the reason why getting wages or whatever paid in the bank would be much better. Cash transactions are getting more restricted and for me anyone accepting money in a bag for the house would be insane. The risk associated with it would be huge.

armabelle

RiseToMe wrote: »

I presume you get payslips, or get paid into a bank even if you withdraw immediately. You could let a ledger. Keep in mind how much money you're allowed to take in cash in and out countries too of you intend on bringing money around the globe.

I certainly don't have my payslips from my first job 15 years ago but perhaps I do have some of the savings. I could ask my old bank from those days when I used to live in X country but doubt they would give me a historial after all this time. Heck I dont even know what bank I had back then. How could I possibly prove my life savings then were I to acquire it over such a long period?

meeeeh

armabelle wrote: »

I certainly don't have my payslips from my first job 15 years ago but perhaps I do have some of the savings. I could ask my old bank from those days when I used to live in X country but doubt they would give me a historial after all this time. Heck I dont even know what bank I had back then. How could I possibly prove my life savings then were I to acquire it over such a long period?

Well that is a problem for you to resolve. But then you still have to find someone who would be willing to sell for cash.

armabelle

meeeeh wrote: »

And that is exactly the reason why getting wages or whatever paid in the bank would be much better. Cash transactions are getting more restricted and for me anyone accepting money in a bag for the house would be insane. The risk associated with it would be huge.

I have always got paid into a bank... no job I have had or client have I had that has paid me any other way but bank accounts come and go, so do jobs and clients and so does one move from country to country over a lifetime. But a paper trail to my life savings (had I actually saved up that amount of money instead of wasting it at the pubs for example) would seem impossible after all this time.

The day cash is restricted is the day this world is completely owned by banks and so are we all. I pray that day never comes.

dar100

Ah so you're looking for idea's from us on how to legitimize your criminal assets:)

jam_mac_jam

No solicitor will agree to this. You are going to find that very hard to do. Also why would the seller except this?

armabelle

dar100 wrote: »

Ah so you're looking for idea's from us on how to legitimize your criminal assets:)

Ok I'll cut you in

armabelle

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

No solicitor will agree to this. You are going to find that very hard to do. Also why would the seller except this?

Ok, well I could deposit it into my bank account just before the sale couldnt I?

dar100

10 percent is my going rate:)

on a serious note, it is up to any individual who challenges you on your money, to prove it is not legit

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

Ok, well I could deposit it into my bank account just before the sale couldnt I?

Bank will raise hell if you suddenly turn up with 300k cash. Don't expect it to be available to transfer out any time quickly afterwards.

dar100 wrote: »

on a serious note, it is up to any individual who challenges you on your money, to prove it is not legit

A solicitor, house vendor, etc does not have to give a reason to refuse to deal - even though it'll be obvious why.

armabelle

dar100 wrote: »

10 percent is my going rate:)

on a serious note, it is up to any individual who challenges you on your money, to prove it is not legit

that sounds like how it should be...innocent until proven guilty say I

armabelle

L1011 wrote: »

Bank will raise hell if you suddenly turn up with 300k cash. Don't expect it to be available to transfer out any time quickly afterwards.



A solicitor, house vendor, etc does not have to give a reason to refuse to deal - even though it'll be obvious why.

what if I take it into the bank in5 euro notes and coins.... then they can't deny me... I mean I kept it in jars all this time how my parents told me since I was a boy

irish_goat

Maybe tell them you won the money on the horses? I hear that works if you're a politician anyway.

Frynge

Set up a companies offshore. I hear Mossack Fonseca should be able to sort you out.

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

what if I take it into the bank in5 euro notes and coins.... then they can't deny me... I mean I kept it in jars all this time how my parents told me since I was a boy

Won't change a thing.

Turning up to lodge 300k and then trying to transfer it quickly is going to bring every single money laundering protection down instantly

they're not obliged to let you lodge the cash but they are obliged to let the authorities know you tried - no matter the size of the notes.

Where you'd get 300k of old fivers - they replaced them, remember - and manage to justify having got that many since 2002 I also don't know!

Atlantic Dawn

You would be reported to Revenue if you tried to conduct a transaction with over €15k in cash, whether or not Revenue would actually do anything about it would be up to them, it's likely they would investigate the source.

Taking pictures every month is a great idea.

Cape Clear

You could ask Bertie Ahern or read through the findings of The Mahon Tribunal for some guidance.

jam_mac_jam

armabelle wrote: »

Ok, well I could deposit it into my bank account just before the sale couldnt I?

Absolutely, but the bank will probably report this as a suspicions transaction. It makes you look like a money launderer. If you have some proof of where the money came from then its fine but I would say it would raise eyebrows.

Bigus

Yes you are perfectly entitled to buy a house for cash, however , to get good title to a house you need to engage a solicitor to transfer every thing to your name and register the title deeds.
Solicitors are obliged to notify the revenue of cash transactions , so if you can satisfy revenue that the cash is legit you would be fine , however , Revenue won't just take a good story and would need to see evidence of some tax paid or any vat due on this cash at various stages or proof that such taxes due abroad were also paid. IE payslips/ invoices / receipts for goods sold etc.

Secondly Most solicitors would refuse to handle that amount of cash on security grounds , but maybe could facilitate taking it and passing it over in instalments of smaller amounts.

The only alternative would be to hand over cash directly to the selller of the house but this would be very dangerous as who's to prove its still not their house after you paid for it.

This is one of the reasons people are tax compliant in Ireland because if you want to Own anything substantial ( including a car) you most ultimately prove that taxes were and are been paid or risk such asset being seized until with the burden of proof being on you and not the revenue.

There are various elements in society who for tax avoidance reasons therefore never own property, and remain mobile or get council houses , so that they are not worth persuing in the courts by revenue, as they don't have any assets to seize.

So if you want to own a house you have to pay your tax and be able to prove it, down the line.

bigpink

All the travellers deal in cash so its not a problem

armabelle

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Absolutely, but the bank will probably report this as a suspicions transaction. It makes you look like a money launderer. If you have some proof of where the money came from then its fine but I would say it would raise eyebrows.

but is this because it is so weird to actually save money nowadays? Couldn't I go to revenue and ask then or say... hey Ive got this lump sum, I want a house how can I do it legally?

If you saved up over a lifetime, & did live in 5 different countries, you would have to declare the money when you leave/enter countries.

Or, if you have your life savings in a few piggy banks, you could always just bring them to the bank & deposit them.

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

but is this because it is so weird to actually save money nowadays? Couldn't I go to revenue and ask then or say... hey Ive got this lump sum, I want a house how can I do it legally?

Its extremely weird to save money in cash, considering the huge risks of theft, fire etc that far outweigh the imagined cyber crime or bank failure risks.

Also the impracticality of dealing with notes at changeovers, such as the Euro changover or the withdrawal of series 1 5, 10 and 20 notes to date.

Your scenario about moving cash around from country to country means you've probably also broken immigration law repeatedly - most countries have regulations on the amount of cash allowed.

Tigger

If you have a load of cash you need to lay bets with lots of bookies an all the events possible in a betting situation and then keep the winning slips to show how you got the money
At least that's how Paul William's says people do it
You loose a bit but not too much
Or you can open a gym or a laundrette or a coal business or ice cream van
Those are the more common ways I've heard about
The solicitor asks how you are paying and how you got the money when you buy a house I think it's a requirement. However there have been loads of tales of people buying a house and paying part in cash in the last few years. It's suits some people to get rid and others who are in debt get a bit of liquidity that thebanks do t know about but there needs to be trust for it to work

relax carry on

armabelle wrote: »

Is it possible to buy a house for cash in Ireland...not like bank transfer but in cash in 500 note euro bills? Or would you have to go through a bank?

Where exactly is the cash now? Under a mattress?

karenalot

I bought a house in cash last year but by bank transfer. My solicitor made me sign a form from Revenue to say that all the money was mine, was not from money laundering and that I agreed to it being investigated should revenue see fit.

I had a long history of bank savings though which I could prove. I wouldn't have fancied trying to explain that the cash was brought out from under my mattress.

Alun

Shortly there will be no euro notes bigger than €50 anyway, as the €100, €200 and €500 notes are being phased out, so for an average house you'd need a very big suitcase to carry it all in.

armabelle

Bigus wrote: »

Yes you are perfectly entitled to buy a house for cash, however , to get good title to a house you need to engage a solicitor to transfer every thing to your name and register the title deeds.
Solicitors are obliged to notify the revenue of cash transactions , so if you can satisfy revenue that the cash is legit you would be fine , however , Revenue won't just take a good story and would need to see evidence of some tax paid or any vat due on this cash at various stages or proof that such taxes due abroad were also paid. IE payslips/ invoices / receipts for goods sold etc.

Secondly Most solicitors would refuse to handle that amount of cash on security grounds , but maybe could facilitate taking it and passing it over in instalments of smaller amounts.

The only alternative would be to hand over cash directly to the selller of the house but this would be very dangerous as who's to prove its still not their house after you paid for it.

This is one of the reasons people are tax compliant in Ireland because if you want to Own anything substantial ( including a car) you most ultimately prove that taxes were and are been paid or risk such asset being seized until with the burden of proof being on you and not the revenue.

There are various elements in society who for tax avoidance reasons therefore never own property, and remain mobile or get council houses , so that they are not worth persuing in the courts by revenue, as they don't have any assets to seize.

So if you want to own a house you have to pay your tax and be able to prove it, down the line.

But how would I prove over the course of my life all this? It is totally unreasonable to ask someone to prove that if they were putting aside a bit of cash every month for say 20 years in many different countries etc. I am just thinking that if I had actually done this - and I well could have - I would not be able to prove it. I mean, would revenue in all those countries give me proof if I ask... are they obliged to do so? would revenue here be obliged to if I now lived in Australia?

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

But how would I prove over the course of my life all this? It is totally unreasonable to ask someone to prove that if they were putting aside a bit of cash every month for say 20 years in many different countries etc. I am just thinking that if I had actually done this - and I well could have - I would not be able to prove it. I mean, would revenue in all those countries give me proof if I ask... are they obliged to do so? would revenue here be obliged to if I now lived in Australia?

Its reasonable to assume anyone in this scenario will have used banks

armabelle

Alun wrote: »

Shortly there will be no euro notes bigger than €50 anyway, as the €100, €200 and €500 notes are being phased out, so for an average house you'd need a very big suitcase to carry it all in.

like I said, my savings are in 5s and tens and a lot of coins

Atlantic Dawn

Alun wrote: »

Shortly there will be no euro notes bigger than €50 anyway, as the €100, €200 and €500 notes are being phased out, so for an average house you'd need a very big suitcase to carry it all in.

Yes it's crazy what's going on, the higher ups in governments around the world have their money in offshore trusts and shell companies offering them anonimity while the common man can't put his own cash in his mattress without risk of it being taken off him.

armabelle

L1011 wrote: »

Its reasonable to assume anyone in this scenario will have used banks

yes but those accounts may have been opened and closed. I have had at least one bank account in each country I have lived.

Frynge

In all seriousness what you could do is use the cash to buy many small things and then sell these small things in batches totalling less than 10k and make sure to keep receipts of selling them, then claim that you built up you collection of small things over many years and that they held their value or possibly appreciated in value.

Gold coins could be an example of such small things.

But do not expect to be able to do it without being asked some tough questions.

And lastly, go on OP, tell us where you got the money.

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

yes but those accounts may have been opened and closed. I have had at least one bank account in each country I have lived.

You can get records of those, records of the forex transactions used to get euro cash from them, and so on

There are limits of 10k in cash to enter the EU - did you break these?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/customs/leaflets/customs-excise-cash-controls.html

intheclouds

L1011 wrote: »

Its reasonable to assume anyone in this scenario will have used banks

Not really, Ive known a lot of people who have a mistrust of banks.

One guy in my last job had no bank account, no passport, no drivers licence etc...

armabelle

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes it's crazy what's going on, the higher ups in governments around the world have their money in offshore trusts and shell companies offering them anonimity while the common man can't put his own cash in his mattress without risk of it being taken off him.

yeah it is pretty messed up when you say it like that

L1011

intheclouds wrote: »

Not really, Ive known a lot of people who have a mistrust of banks.

One guy in my last job had no bank account, no passport, no drivers licence etc...

Was your last job being a member of the Ahern cabinet? (actually he did have a passport)

For every person who has a mistrust of banks there's someone who will get cleaned out by a burglar, fire, 'trusted' relative or end up dying with the mattress thrown out and nobody the wiser. Its pointless.

The Moldy Gowl

You are afraid your bank details will be hacked from you or are cynical of the big bad scary banksters taking your money.

So you leave a sizeable about of money just laying around the house. I guess over 30 grand at least?
You have more chance of that getting robbed than your online details.

Wtf. Just use a bank.


It's 2016, you are gonna have a nightmare proving where those funds came from no matter if they came from the local shop 20 years ago.

elastico

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Our solicitor would definitely refuse to deal with it. He told us a story of someone who was trying to buy a house with actual cash and how fast he ran away.

I think, if you could find a solicitor willing to handle the sale and a seller willing to take it, you'd need to be very clearly able to show where the cash came from to buy a house. Otherwise the anti-money laundering regs or similar would kick in in some form or other.

I don't see how your solicitor would care?

If I was selling a house and somebody asked me to pay in cash I would instruct them to bring the cash to their the local branch and deposit the funds to my account.

Its not my job to worry about where the cash came from and my solicitor works for me so not his problem either.

It would be highly risky to behave in this manner as you could lose all the cash if its robbed, and if it is legit its better have it in your own account and do a transfer.

L1011

elastico wrote: »

If I was selling a house and somebody asked me to pay in cash I would instruct them to bring the cash to their the local branch and deposit the funds to my account.

And Revenue would be on your doorstep the next morning asking where the cash came from. "I sold my house to this guy with no bank account" isn't going to fully extricate you from the problem.

spindex

armabelle wrote: »

like I said, my savings are in 5s and tens and a lot of coins

Can you take a picture of this pile of money and show it to us please ?