Go-Ahead Win 10% of Dublin Bus routes for tender

LastStop

Couldn't find anything recent on this. I know the award was delayed a couple of times but the last I heard this was to be announced this month.

Has anyone seen or heard anything else?

A couple of months back it was announced DB had made the shortlist for the awarding but nobody has been able to tell me who is on the list, when the decision is going to be announced or anything.

LXFlyer

It hasn't been announced yet - I imagine it'll be in May sometime.

We will just have to wait and see.

macroman

It was announced recently that any operator who wins the contracts has to provide their own parking and maintenance facilities - DB were getting a little worried they may have to share their facilities.

There was also advertisement a few months ago for 250 Dublin based drivers by an agency who hires for and provides agency drivers for First, Stagecoach, Transdev & Arriva so I wonder if any or all of the above were costing the staffing for the contracts.

LastStop

macroman wrote: »

It was announced recently that any operator who wins the contracts has to provide their own parking and maintenance facilities - DB were getting a little worried they may have to share their facilities.

There was also advertisement a few months ago for 250 Dublin based drivers by an agency who hires for and provides agency drivers for First, Stagecoach, Transdev & Arriva so I wonder if any or all of the above were costing the staffing for the contracts.

I seen that advert. 50 hour week. Someone trying to loophole the work time directive.

Where was the announcement about providing own facilities?

Dravokivich

I think that was a statement made when the tender was announced. It was definitely discussed here at the time and acknowledged as a requirement.

LXFlyer

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think that was a statement made when the tender was announced. It was definitely discussed here at the time and acknowledged as a requirement.

I don't recall that element to be honest.

I was under the impression that storage/maintenance could be sub-contracted to DB.

That's going to be a big ask for any new operator if they have to provide their own facilities for 80-90 buses in a fairly short time frame.

macroman

LastStop wrote: »

I seen that advert. 50 hour week. Someone trying to loophole the work time directive.

Where was the announcement about providing own facilities?

I came across it here http://dublinbusdrivers.com/April%202016%20Newsletter.html

LastStop

macroman wrote: »

It was announced recently that any operator who wins the contracts has to provide their own parking and maintenance facilities - DB were getting a little worried they may have to share their facilities. .

I struggle to grasp how any company can put a tender in for these routes when the NTA are only providing vital information such as if facilities to house buses are being provided or not.

Additionally some of the routes are being changed to incorporate extra mileage and departures which will also affect any tenders profitability. Especially seeing as the awarding is due in the next 6-8 weeks.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't recall that element to be honest.

I was under the impression that storage/maintenance could be sub-contracted to DB.

That's going to be a big ask for any new operator if they have to provide their own facilities for 80-90 buses in a fairly short time frame.

There's nothing new in any of this,as it (and other issues) has already been comprehensively studied by the NTA...

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/3._Technical_Report_on_Contract_Options_-_Dublin_Bus_September_2013.pdf

Page 11,4.1.1

The Authority has no statutory powers to ensure depot facilities or those buses purchased pre 2012 would be available to new operator/s.
While the Authority could provide new depot facilities for all tendering parties,this would increase the cost to the State for the competition. It could be considered a reasonable cost if only part of the Dublin Bus services were opened for tender.

All physical infrastructure owned by Dublin Bus pre 2012,is outside of the NTA's scope.

Whilst the NTA in this report,do suggest providing such infrastructure should the partial tendering process begin,what they have now actually decided is to refrain from this,instead requiring the prospective tenderers to factor this into their proposals.

What is also of significant note in the Current situation is the rather rapid increase in demand for Bus Services throughout the GDA..

For example,in the period 2009 - 2012 the Peak Vehicle Requirement fell from 936 to 798 vehicles,which represents a very large loss of capacity,when placed alongside the current increased demand,some of which is being met by a fire-brigade response of retaining older vehicles originally scheduled for withdrawal.

The current situation,once again,underlines the basic soundness of the 2002 Forum on Public Transport report compiled for Mary O Rourke,which would have allowed the Private Sector to set-up and operate a tranche of New Routes,in addition to Dublin Bus retaining and upgrading it's then existing network.

However,in the light of O Rourke's successor Seamus Brennan's decision not to act upon the reports recommendations,we are where we are ....:rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote: »

All physical infrastructure owned by Dublin Bus pre 2012,is outside of the NTA's scope.

why? It's all owned by the state and has been paid for by the state / travelling public anyway...

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote:

why? It's all owned by the state and has been paid for by the state / travelling public anyway...

It does seem odd that the rest of the government agencies rely on OPW to purchase/find buildings for them but Dublin Bus is different. I presume it's because CIE is a semi-state?

It's all academic really. If the depots were to be either operated as shared resources or given to a private company, the DB unions would be out in force to block it from happening. Thin end of the edge, race to the bottom, eroding of working conditions, yellow pack something or other, the cliches address endless.

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

There's nothing new in any of this,as it (and other issues) has already been comprehensively studied by the NTA...

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/3._Technical_Report_on_Contract_Options_-_Dublin_Bus_September_2013.pdf

Page 11,4.1.1



All physical infrastructure owned by Dublin Bus pre 2012,is outside of the NTA's scope.

Whilst the NTA in this report,do suggest providing such infrastructure should the partial tendering process begin,what they have now actually decided is to refrain from this,instead requiring the prospective tenderers to factor this into their proposals.

What is also of significant note in the Current situation is the rather rapid increase in demand for Bus Services throughout the GDA..

For example,in the period 2009 - 2012 the Peak Vehicle Requirement fell from 936 to 798 vehicles,which represents a very large loss of capacity,when placed alongside the current increased demand,some of which is being met by a fire-brigade response of retaining older vehicles originally scheduled for withdrawal.

The current situation,once again,underlines the basic soundness of the 2002 Forum on Public Transport report compiled for Mary O Rourke,which would have allowed the Private Sector to set-up and operate a tranche of New Routes,in addition to Dublin Bus retaining and upgrading it's then existing network.

However,in the light of O Rourke's successor Seamus Brennan's decision not to act upon the reports recommendations,we are where we are ....:rolleyes:

I'm aware that they were not going to be given facilities - however that did not preclude subcontracting the maintenance/storage to Dublin Bus.

From what I'm reading in the earlier post above the impression given is that this option is gone.

I don't see what the issue about fleet expansion is - some buses are being used for 16 years rather than 12. The NTA stumped up the funds to facilitate that.

It's a sensible way of increasing the fleet size in times when funding is at a premium.

The fleet size is now about 970 buses which is a solid increase.

The bottom fell out of the economy and the passenger numbers weren't there - of course the fleet size fell.

bg07

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm aware that they were not going to be given facilities - however that did not preclude subcontracting the maintenance/storage to Dublin Bus.

From what I'm reading in the earlier post above the impression given is that this option is gone.

I don't see what the issue about fleet expansion is - some buses are being used for 16 years rather than 12. The NTA stumped up the funds to facilitate that.

It's a sensible way of increasing the fleet size in times when funding is at a premium.

The fleet size is now about 970 buses which is a solid increase.

The bottom fell out of the economy and the passenger numbers weren't there - of course the fleet size fell.

Pre 2000 buses were not wheelchair accessible. This may also have been a factor that encouraged the earlier retirement of buses in the last couple of year.

LXFlyer

bg07 wrote: »

Pre 2000 buses were not wheelchair accessible. This may also have been a factor that encouraged the earlier retirement of buses in the last couple of year.

They were eliminated within the normal 12 year life cycle by 2011, which is standard across the bus industry.

The fleet size fell because the passenger numbers weren't there, but the fleet now stands at 971 buses - it has been increasing steadily over the last three years.

Vic_08

bg07 wrote: »

Pre 2000 buses were not wheelchair accessible. This may also have been a factor that encouraged the earlier retirement of buses in the last couple of year.

The step entrance buses are long gone at this stage, DB has already sold on about 200 low-floor deckers.

The big UK groups are only now finishing with the last of their step-entrance olympians, ahead of the Jan 2017 deadline.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm aware that they were not going to be given facilities - however that did not preclude subcontracting the maintenance/storage to Dublin Bus.

From what I'm reading in the earlier post above the impression given is that this option is gone.

I don't see what the issue about fleet expansion is - some buses are being used for 16 years rather than 12. The NTA stumped up the funds to facilitate that.

It's a sensible way of increasing the fleet size in times when funding is at a premium.

The fleet size is now about 970 buses which is a solid increase.

The bottom fell out of the economy and the passenger numbers weren't there - of course the fleet size fell.

The Maintenance/Storage subcontracting issue was quite rapidly put aside,as it would have involved a fairly intricate set of interactions between PSO and Commercial operations.

There is no "Issue" about fleet expansion per se,except the speed with which demand is outstripping supply.

The Forum on Public Transport agreed on a Peak Vehicle Requirement for Dublin of c 1,150 vehicles,with the 150 to be operated by the Private Sector and further expansion to include a 10% private sector involvement clause.

The reality now is the NTA has to fund more improvements in the short term,than it may have expected to,and this alone is placing stresses on the original plan and timeframe.

In the meantime,actual large scale improvements are quite scarce right now,which may be causing a degree of managerial uncertainty as well as administrative committment ...:)

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Maintenance/Storage subcontracting issue was quite rapidly put aside,as it would have involved a fairly intricate set of interactions between PSO and Commercial operations.

There is no "Issue" about fleet expansion per se,except the speed with which demand is outstripping supply.

The Forum on Public Transport agreed on a Peak Vehicle Requirement for Dublin of c 1,150 vehicles,with the 150 to be operated by the Private Sector and further expansion to include a 10% private sector involvement clause.

The reality now is the NTA has to fund more improvements in the short term,than it may have expected to,and this alone is placing stresses on the original plan and timeframe.

In the meantime,actual large scale improvements are quite scarce right now,which may be causing a degree of managerial uncertainty as well as administrative committment ...:)

With the best will in the world we'd all love to see rapid fleet expansion, but we are coming of the worst recession in living memory and people need to have realistic expectations given the fact that funding isn't exactly growing on trees right now.

Annasopra

Whats happening here?

devnull

Rumour has it that BE won the Waterford tender, however it's simply hearsay so this post comes with a health warning.

dublinstevie

The private companies
1.dont want the poxy routes on offer as there are no profits
2.the private companies dint meet the criteria

Which means they stay with Dublin Bus which the NTA dont want because it will look like egg on face,so the whole thing is being dragged out

AlekSmart

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Whats happening here?

Closing Date for receipt of tenders extended to Jan 2017.
Decision date to June 2017.
Expected commencement Date "Late" 2017.

Currently Four responses in the process,comprising Bus Atha Cliath,two UK and one French based operator.

Two withdrawals announced,Dualway/RATP joint-venture,and National Express,both citing undue delay as the reason for their decision.

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

Two withdrawals announced,Dualway/RATP joint-venture,and National Express,both citing undue delay as the reason for their decision.

When I worked in the public sector my colleagues used to say "whatever we get, it'll be the third best option"

devnull

dublinstevie wrote: »

The private companies
1.dont want the poxy routes on offer as there are no profits

Profit has nothing to do with it since any operator who wins a tender gets paid for running the service how much money the service makes makes no difference to them, I know this doesn't suit your agenda but it's what the case is with this tendering system as put forward by the NTA.

By the way, Dublin Bus don't run any routes where there are no profits for free either. They run them because they are paid to do so. Privates don't because they are not paid to do so. Take away Dublin Bus' subsidy and see how long they operate the routes with no profits.

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

Profit has nothing to do with it since any operator who wins a tender gets paid for running the service how much money the service makes makes no difference to them, I know this doesn't suit your agenda but it's what the case is with this tendering system as put forward by the NTA.

Profit questions don't have to be based on the farebox. Are private companies going to run it at a loss if the tender is not high enough for them to operate?

What if they ask for more and threaten to pull out if they don't get it. Shall we all just play a game of brinksmanship with them?

Profit is everything to a private company. So it has everything to do with it and naive to think otherwise.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

Are private companies going to run it at a loss if the tender is not high enough for them to operate?

If they won't win the tender, they won't be operating the route in the first place, do you really think that companies will tender amounts that they know they cannot make any money on?

Come on, be realistic.

What if they ask for more and threaten to pull out if they don't get it.

Because in Ireland, every time someone doesn't get more of whatever they ask for, they never withdraw service in order to force someones hand do they?

The contracts will be watertight so if an operator does withdraw service they will not get paid for it just like Dublin Bus are not paid for services they do not operate in addition they will be fined because the new contracts will have fines in them for non operation of services so it would be even less economical for them to not operate the services than to do so.

Profit is everything to a private company. So it has everything to do with it and naive to think otherwise.

I tend to look at things from the point of view of myself as a public transport user rather than trying to get into some ideological war but I appreciate many people are more interest in the company and their own beliefs than the bigger picture.

For what it's worth I believe that neither model is perfect.

bigredone

Could it be it keeps getting put back time and time again because the private operators are coming in with tenders higher than DB/BE?
What other reason could there be for delay after delay?

devnull

A lot of politics apparently from all sides, including unions, private operators and incumbents from what I've heard.

bigredone

Big wild assumptions from you devnull, do you work for the NTA, dept of transport, DB or BE. Maybe some other vested interest?
I will nail my colours to the mast, no subterfuge from me, i am a DB driver, what are you?
Probably a starbucks barista posting here on their break, ignorant of everything but not shy to voice his expertise.

I can tell you now the Unions have ZERO problem with the 10%, once TUPE was killed stone dead they and the members have no problem with it.
To the best of my knowledge from what i have heard from DB higher ups, DB has no problem with it either, the fact that it keeps getting delayed is proof the private operators cant match the DB tender, so the NTA are scrambling to find something that will allow the private operator to be awarded the 10%.

You keep pushing you agenda/ignorance on here devnull, its funny to read.

devnull

bigredone wrote: »

Big wild assumptions from you devnull, do you work for the NTA, dept of transport, DB or BE. Maybe some other vested interest?

No vested interest at all - unlike yourself as an employee of DB who continues to re-register with the same old **** time and time again, which is rather quite pathetic. The difference is I don't need to re-register time and time again after I get banned or have multiple accounts because of the fact I am quite happy to post everything on the same account and have done for years and that will never change.

I can tell you now the Unions have ZERO problem with the 10%, once TUPE was killed stone dead they and the members have no problem with it.

That's not what the DublinBusDrivers.com site says, if you read through a lot of the notices on there they have argued about taking staff costs out, depot facilities and many other things, or are you telling me the unions are lying on their own website and they have not have a single problem with all of this.

You're also telling me what the recent NTA statements which I will find for you if I need to, which way the tender has been delayed due to issues between parties that needed to be resolved ahead of the next stage of the process is pure lies from them as well?

To the best of my knowledge from what i have heard from DB higher ups, DB has no problem with it either, the fact that it keeps getting delayed is proof the private operators cant match the DB tender, so the NTA are scrambling to find something that will allow the private operator to be awarded the 10%..

If you have so much inside information why don't you post your sources and tell us who it is. It's very simple but you won't because it is all politically motivated like everything is in transport in this country which is why the system is in such a state.

Also I'd be very careful of accusing an agency of corruption on a public forum, since as has been seen in the past in other industries, such rumours without foundation could result both problems for you and the forum itself, so if you are going to make such claims, why don't you post your source and information in a verifiable way.

The difference is with me and you I reference sources and documents, you just reference "what I have heard" and like with all your other usernames, you can never back your arguments up with any facts or proof or any kind of documents from a source other than from your own posts. If you want to make a good argument, you should try doing that.

It's no wonder good posters like LXFlyer no longer post here, the standard of discussion on here has gone right downhill, I was hoping the new year might bring some better standard of discussion to C+T but it seems we're going to have the same kind of things replayed a thousand times like in the past.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

A lot of politics apparently from all sides, including unions, private operators and incumbents from what I've heard.

Some of the "Politics",......."from what I've heard" may have to do with very recent changes in the landscape of the NTA's most favoured model over in London.

https://www.ft.com/content/b7392524-8923-11e5-90de-f44762bf9896

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2016/sep/10/transport-for-londons-financial-numbers-crunch

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/sadiq-khan-plan-to-halve-383m-tfl-bill-will-cost-1500-jobs-a3234876.html

Major challenges now face the TfL hierarchy,and already visitors to London can feel this in both the scarcity of human staff,and when they are found,the ability of those staff to function.

The Standard article mentions one of the issues now finding a footing...agency staff.

The new arrangements are also causing some fairly urgent reassement in the tendering preparations of the Major Bus groups who have had a very trouble free journey over the past 25 years.

Uncertainty is now the order of the day....and at least some of that is washing up along the Irish Public Transport coastline in the very recent past also.

Nobody want's to commit....Tenderer or Tenderee

bigredone

devnull wrote: »

No vested interest at all - unlike yourself as an employee of DB who continues to re-register with the same old **** time and time again, which is rather quite pathetic. The difference is I don't need to re-register time and time again after I get banned or have multiple accounts because of the fact I am quite happy to post everything on the same account and have done for years and that will never change.



That's not what the DublinBusDrivers.com site says, if you read through a lot of the notices on there they have argued about taking staff costs out, depot facilities and many other things, or are you telling me the unions are lying on their own website and they have not have a single problem with all of this.

You're also telling me what the recent NTA statements which I will find for you if I need to, which way the tender has been delayed due to issues between parties that needed to be resolved ahead of the next stage of the process is pure lies from them as well?



If you have so much inside information why don't you post your sources and tell us who it is. It's very simple but you won't because it is all politically motivated like everything is in transport in this country which is why the system is in such a state.

Also I'd be very careful of accusing an agency of corruption on a public forum, since as has been seen in the past in other industries, such rumours without foundation could result both problems for you and the forum itself, so if you are going to make such claims, why don't you post your source and information in a verifiable way.

The difference is with me and you I reference sources and documents, you just reference "what I have heard" and like with all your other usernames, you can never back your arguments up with any facts or proof or any kind of documents from a source other than from your own posts. If you want to make a good argument, you should try doing that.

It's no wonder good posters like LXFlyer no longer post here, the standard of discussion on here has gone right downhill, I was hoping the new year might bring some better standard of discussion to C+T but it seems we're going to have the same kind of things replayed a thousand times like in the past.

Hold your horses devnull, big wild assumptions yet again.
1.not a rereg, you seem to have a hard on with this.

2.HAhahah you base your info of some mickymouse web site, that admits it is not affiliated with siptu, the latest info about Donnybrook is from 2014. If dont even have all the routes listed. Looks like its run as a school project
I will go out on a limb here and suggest a DB bus driver such as my self, who is in regular contact with the unions and who also has a friendly chat with DB management on occasion, might know a touch more that you, a barista in starbucks.

3.Sources , are you for real, you are on here spouting pure ignorance backed up with nothing,(Aircoach from greystones to bray in 30mins)
Here is how it works in the real world, you bump into DB management , and you ask them a question, the answer goes like this "unofficially bigredone this is whats going on.......... now you did not hear that from me"

4.I am hearing info from the horses mouth, unions and management,your getting it of a mickymouse school project website, you are pushing false info on here as if you are a expert and only muddying the waters

5."LXFlyer no longer post here, the standard of discussion on here has gone right downhill" whoever they are you are probably the reason for this.

devnull

bigredone wrote: »

2.HAhahah you base your info of some mickymouse web site, that admits it is not affiliated with siptu, the latest info about Donnybrook is from 2014. If dont even have all the routes listed. Looks like its run as a school project.

The guys who are posting on there with updates are worker directors of Siptu for Dublin Bus among other things.

I will go out on a limb here and suggest a DB bus driver such as my self, who is in regular contact with the unions and who also has a friendly chat with DB management on occasion, might know a touch more that you, a barista in starbucks.

Anyone can come on boards and say anything they want, doesn't mean it's true. That's why backing things up with other sources and verifiable proof I believe is important.

Here is how it works in the real world, you bump into DB management , and you ask them a question, the answer goes like this "unofficially bigredone this is whats going on.......... now you did not hear that from me"

4.I am hearing info from the horses mouth, unions and management,your getting it of a mickymouse school project website, you are pushing false info on here as if you are a expert and only muddying the waters.

And I can say I heard something from management of a company or an agency as well and they told me something else unofficially and I am right, but I try and avoid doing that because I try and make informed posts based on things that I can back-up not that I heard on the grapevine.

n97 mini

Bigredone, if you are indeed a DB driver, you're doing no-one any favours.

AlekSmart I believe is also a driver and I welcome his fair and balaced contributions. You seem to be hell bent on attacking other posters.

VG31

n97 mini wrote: »

Bigredone, if you are indeed a DB driver, you're doing no-one any favours.

AlekSmart I believe is also a driver and I welcome his fair and balaced contributions. You seem to be hell bent on attacking other posters.

Yes, that user isn't really doing his colleagues any favours for the perception amongst some people of bus drivers being grumpy and rude.

AlekSmart's contributions are always reasonable and balanced like you said. There are some other DB drivers on Boards who contribute positively as well.

bigredone

n97 mini wrote: »

Bigredone, if you are indeed a DB driver, you're doing no-one any favours.

AlekSmart I believe is also a driver and I welcome his fair and balaced contributions. You seem to be hell bent on attacking other posters.

VG31 wrote: »

Yes, that user isn't really doing his colleagues any favours for the perception amongst some people of bus drivers being grumpy and rude.

AlekSmart's contributions are always reasonable and balanced like you said. There are some other DB drivers on Boards who contribute positively as well.

I dont know where either of you two work or in what industry.
Now imagine for a moment that there was a forum where people came to ask questions about your line of work, and on this forum there where posters answering theses question with zero real world knowledge of your job, in fact they push lies and myths.
Now other posters come to this site with a open mind to get answers to questions, then the, at best ignorant and at worst nefarious answers are taken to be true, this action of posting of lies and myths will than have real world consequences for you in your job.
Hand on heart are you two going to say you would have no problem with this?

I am a DB driver, some posters here find it impossible to believe that i or other drivers could know more than them about DB, they are either suffer from hubris or are setting out on purpose to cause problems.

BuffyBot

You've been told to behave already. Wind the crap back if you want to keep participating.

devnull

bigredone wrote: »

Now imagine for a moment that there was a forum where people came to ask questions about your line of work, and on this forum there where posters answering theses question with zero real world knowledge of your job, in fact they push lies and myths.
Now other posters come to this site with a open mind to get answers to questions, then the, at best ignorant and at worst nefarious answers are taken to be true, this action of posting of lies and myths will than have real world consequences for you in your job.
Hand on heart are you two going to say you would have no problem with this?

I am a DB driver, some posters here find it impossible to believe that i or other drivers could know more than them about DB, they are either suffer from hubris or are setting out on purpose to cause problems.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want to make a point, back it up with some proof, Anyone can post anything they want on a message board and say they are x person and they heard y, it doesn't make it true.

At the end of the day I don't try and tell anyone what to think I just give my own views and let people make up their own mind. Where possible I try and back them up with information I have and third party links and references that are in public domain.

monument

bigredone banned for 24 hours, post deleted.

VG31

bigredone wrote: »

I am a DB driver, some posters here find it impossible to believe that i or other drivers could know more than them about DB, they are either suffer from hubris or are setting out on purpose to cause problems.

It's not related to you being a DB driver or about the extent of your knowledge but entirely due to your terrible attitude, downright rudeness, personal attacks on posters and refusal to back up your information with reliable sources.

monument

VG31 wrote: »

It's not related to you being a DB driver or about the extent of your knowledge but entirely due to your terrible attitude, downright rudeness, personal attacks on posters and refusal to back up your information with reliable sources.

Thanks for that.

But now -- everyone: back on topic please!

-- moderator

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

The difference is with me and you I reference sources and documents, you just reference "what I have heard" and like with all your other usernames, you can never back your arguments up with any facts or proof or any kind of documents from a source other than from your own posts. If you want to make a good argument, you should try doing that.

Ok:

devnull wrote: »

A lot of politics apparently from all sides, including unions, private operators and incumbents from what I've heard.

What's the hold up from private operators that you've heard? The NTA pays them a set fee and provides them the equipment and they don't get involved anymore than that, so what issues concern them that would hold it up?

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

Ok:What's the hold up from private operators that you've heard?

If you're going to quote me, please quote what I actually said not what I didn't.

I simply said that politics was holding it up, not that any one party was, just the politics between all of them. The NTA have essentially said this, saying that the process is more complicated than they first thought because of the range and strength of views by parties which has delayed the process.

The NTA pays them a set fee and provides them the equipment and they don't get involved anymore than that, so what issues concern them that would hold it up?

The public operators have been making claims that certain things in the tender are unfair, the privates have been of a different view believing those things should not change and have a differing point of view. That is very much political

Do you really think that any one side is simply allowing one side to make points in their own favour without the opposition contesting them? This is how politics works, not just in this sector but in politics as a whole throughout the country.

Do you ever see Sinn Fein argue about something related to politics in this country and other parties just sit back and say nothing and not challenge anything they put forward? Of course they will have their say and be of different view and such things will always slow processes down.

Vic_08

devnull wrote: »

If you're going to quote me, please quote what I actually said not what I didn't.

I simply said that politics was holding it up, not that any one party was, just the politics between all of them. The NTA have essentially said this, saying that the process is more complicated than they first thought because of the range and strength of views by parties which has delayed the process.



The public operators have been making claims that certain things in the tender are unfair, the privates have been of a different view believing those things should not change and have a differing point of view. That is very much political

Do you really think that any one side is simply allowing one side to make points in their own favour without the opposition contesting them? This is how politics works, not just in this sector but in politics as a whole throughout the country.

Do you ever see Sinn Fein argue about something related to politics in this country and other parties just sit back and say nothing and not challenge anything they put forward? Of course they will have their say and be of different view and such things will always slow processes down.

Earlier in the thread you criticised a poster for not providing sources, claiming you do. Please provide a source for some of the claims you are making such as the passages highlighted.

devnull

If you go back through the thread, I will think you find I have referenced both notices that are run by Siptu in relation to their views on things and also debates which have been had in the Dail where the NTA have stated that there has been delays and more information on that.

I kindly refer you to DublinBusDrivers.com and also the debates search page on http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/ which I'm sure you will find the detail for all to see.

Just so we can be truly up-front about this, are you saying that the unions had no problems with TUPE'ing across, had no concerns about the process whatsoever and had no concerns about the use of CIE property by other operators, and have had no problem with the tender process from start until now and even if they did, none of this would have any possible chance of delaying the process?

devnull

I forgot about the NBRU, but I just found a few bits and pieces

---

Delays due to union pressure. This document confirms that the tendering process has been put back to allow for talks with unions to try and resolve some of the issues that they have.

http://www.thejournal.ie/bus-route-privitatisation-talks-1781697-Nov2014/ (delays due to union pressure)

---

Reference to a LRC document following meetings at the LRC where the unions asked for rules to be changed that they didn't agree with or like which the LRC issued a five page document on what should be changed in their view.

In addition the Minister is quoted as saying in view of these things, he has asked for a report to be drawn up for "later in the year' as to aid him with this policy which is clearly going to cause a delay.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/process-of-tendering-10-bus-routes-to-continue-minister-says-1.2212368

Vic_08

devnull wrote: »

The difference is with me and you I reference sources and documents, you just reference "what I have heard"

devnull wrote: »

If you go back through the thread, I will think you find I have referenced both notices that are run by Siptu in relation to their views on things and also debates which have been had in the Dail where the NTA have stated that there has been delays and more information on that.

I kindly refer you to DublinBusDrivers.com and also the debates search page on http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/ which I'm sure you will find the detail for all to see.

"Go search though oireachtas debates" is not a source. YOU are the one claiming to be posting a better sourced argument, YOU provide the sources or admit that your sh!t smells no better than your opponent.

devnull wrote: »

Just so we can be truly up-front about this, are you saying that the unions had no problems with TUPE'ing across, had no concerns about the process whatsoever and had no concerns about the use of CIE property by other operators, and have had no problem with the tender process from start until now and even if they did, none of this would have any possible chance of delaying the process?

Now you are attempting to put entire paragraphs into my mouth for some reason. I have posted not one word about any of this on this thread. Please provide a source to prove otherwise.

devnull

Vic_08 wrote: »

Now you are attempting to put entire paragraphs into my mouth for some reason. I have posted not one word about any of this on this thread. Please provide a source to prove otherwise.

I never said you did. I was simply asking you a question that was relevant to the debate based on some of the things that have been discussed here and in the past. If you don't want to discuss the issues at hand and the topic this thread is about and instead be more interested in scoring points against me, be my guest, but I'd prefer to discuss the topic at hand too.

I merely was asking you if you believed that
1) Staff did not slow down the process in any way
2) There was no issue with regards to the unions with regards to TUPE
3) There was no issue in relation to depot facilities.

I'm not going to force you to answer. I'm just curious as to what you think about those things and what you believe to get your viewpoint on these things so we could have a discussion about some of the issues and politics concerned with this government policy on this discussion forum.

"Go search though oireachtas debates" is not a source. YOU are the one claiming to be posting a better sourced argument, YOU provide the sources or admit that your sh!t smells no better than your opponent.

So basically what you are saying that what is said in the Dail and the Houses of the Oireachtas cannot be used as a source? Are you for real? We're talking about a government policy here, but you have decided that anything the elected representatives of this country say to each other in Government buildings does not count? If that's the case then pointless having a debate at all.

Also I provided another website and links to articles in the media on the former post. No doubt that you will find some issue with them as well. First of all I was accused of not providing sources and then I was accused of the sources not counting, you asked me to provie some sources I did that, unlike other posters who appear to be of the attitude that I said so, so it is correct, without any attempt to back it up.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but your first point was that I was no better than another poster who was subsequently banned. I have provided sources, if you don't like that, I'm sorry about that but at the end of the day it's for the people of boards.ie to make their own mind up on what they believe, I'm not going to tell them what to think, just give my views.

Vic_08

devnull wrote: »

So basically what you are saying that what is said in the Dail and the Houses of the Oireachtas cannot be used as a source? Are you for real? We're talking about a government policy here, but you have decided that anything the elected representatives of this country say to each other in Government buildings does not count? If that's the case then pointless having a debate at all.

No, that is not what I said at all and I don't think any reasonable person could infer that clearly ridiculous statement from my post.

What I said was that pointing to the entirety of the oireachtas database and saying "search" is not a reference, referencing the specific passages that back-up your claim is.

devnull wrote: »

Also I provided another website and links to articles in the media on the former post. No doubt that you will find some issue with them as well. First of all I was accused of not providing sources and then I was accused of the sources not counting, you asked me to provie some sources I did that, unlike other posters who appear to be of the attitude that I said so, so it is correct, without any attempt to back it up.

You are the one making claims about the provenance of your posts, it shouldn't require an argument to get you to provide your claimed sources.

Now a source for the fact: "The public operators have been making claims that certain things in the tender are unfair", please. And not some article about unions but an actual source from someone that could be reasonably said to represent a public operator.

devnull wrote: »

I'm sorry you feel this way, but your first point was that I was no better than another poster who was subsequently banned.

No, it really wasn't. What I said was that YOU claim to be better so YOU should prove it.

devnull

The staff work for the public operators. If you don't want me to consider the staff of an operator as being representive the company fair enough. From now on I will bear in mind that in mind.

I'm not going to go down the road of having a childish argument with you but you have your view and I have mine. Since you clearly are not willing to answer the questions I put to you on this matter it's impossible to have a proper debate.

Vic_08

devnull wrote: »

The staff work for the public operators. If you don't want me to consider the staff of an operator as being representive the company fair enough. From now on I will bear in mind that in mind.

Well it took long enough but I reckon that is good enough to conclusively show that you have no source for your fact that "The public operators have been making claims that certain things in the tender are unfair".

There is some irony that you are claiming company employees as sources for company policy in the same thread you are criticising a company employee for not providing any sources for his posts.

devnull wrote: »

I'm not going to go down the road of having a childish argument with you but you have your view and I have mine. Since you clearly are not willing to answer the questions I put to you on this matter it's impossible to have a proper debate.

I am not at all interested in debating anything with you until we clear up this little matter of your claims of sources for the facts you have posted.

devnull

Vic_08 wrote: »

There is some irony that you are claiming company employees as sources for company policy in the same thread you are criticising a company employee for not providing any sources for his posts....

There is a company employee posting in this thread? What do you Base that on? The fact he said he is so it must be true? If you used inverted commas around company employee it will be one thing but you basically admitted to double standards here.

The source I quote for unions is a source that is proven trade union reps of the company. The person here hi just am anonymous member on a forum who recently signed up. Comparing what anonymous member of public says and somehow putting on the same level as a statement on a union website is pretty farcical.

I should have used the word unions rather that operators but as I said you continue to avoid questions I asked you and keep asking your own. Therefore until you start answering mine I won't answer any more of yours.