Go-Ahead Win 10% of Dublin Bus routes for tender

LastStop

Couldn't find anything recent on this. I know the award was delayed a couple of times but the last I heard this was to be announced this month.

Has anyone seen or heard anything else?

A couple of months back it was announced DB had made the shortlist for the awarding but nobody has been able to tell me who is on the list, when the decision is going to be announced or anything.

LXFlyer

It hasn't been announced yet - I imagine it'll be in May sometime.

We will just have to wait and see.

macroman

It was announced recently that any operator who wins the contracts has to provide their own parking and maintenance facilities - DB were getting a little worried they may have to share their facilities.

There was also advertisement a few months ago for 250 Dublin based drivers by an agency who hires for and provides agency drivers for First, Stagecoach, Transdev & Arriva so I wonder if any or all of the above were costing the staffing for the contracts.

LastStop

macroman wrote: »

It was announced recently that any operator who wins the contracts has to provide their own parking and maintenance facilities - DB were getting a little worried they may have to share their facilities.

There was also advertisement a few months ago for 250 Dublin based drivers by an agency who hires for and provides agency drivers for First, Stagecoach, Transdev & Arriva so I wonder if any or all of the above were costing the staffing for the contracts.

I seen that advert. 50 hour week. Someone trying to loophole the work time directive.

Where was the announcement about providing own facilities?

Dravokivich

I think that was a statement made when the tender was announced. It was definitely discussed here at the time and acknowledged as a requirement.

LXFlyer

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think that was a statement made when the tender was announced. It was definitely discussed here at the time and acknowledged as a requirement.

I don't recall that element to be honest.

I was under the impression that storage/maintenance could be sub-contracted to DB.

That's going to be a big ask for any new operator if they have to provide their own facilities for 80-90 buses in a fairly short time frame.

macroman

LastStop wrote: »

I seen that advert. 50 hour week. Someone trying to loophole the work time directive.

Where was the announcement about providing own facilities?

I came across it here http://dublinbusdrivers.com/April%202016%20Newsletter.html

LastStop

macroman wrote: »

It was announced recently that any operator who wins the contracts has to provide their own parking and maintenance facilities - DB were getting a little worried they may have to share their facilities. .

I struggle to grasp how any company can put a tender in for these routes when the NTA are only providing vital information such as if facilities to house buses are being provided or not.

Additionally some of the routes are being changed to incorporate extra mileage and departures which will also affect any tenders profitability. Especially seeing as the awarding is due in the next 6-8 weeks.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't recall that element to be honest.

I was under the impression that storage/maintenance could be sub-contracted to DB.

That's going to be a big ask for any new operator if they have to provide their own facilities for 80-90 buses in a fairly short time frame.

There's nothing new in any of this,as it (and other issues) has already been comprehensively studied by the NTA...

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/3._Technical_Report_on_Contract_Options_-_Dublin_Bus_September_2013.pdf

Page 11,4.1.1

The Authority has no statutory powers to ensure depot facilities or those buses purchased pre 2012 would be available to new operator/s.
While the Authority could provide new depot facilities for all tendering parties,this would increase the cost to the State for the competition. It could be considered a reasonable cost if only part of the Dublin Bus services were opened for tender.

All physical infrastructure owned by Dublin Bus pre 2012,is outside of the NTA's scope.

Whilst the NTA in this report,do suggest providing such infrastructure should the partial tendering process begin,what they have now actually decided is to refrain from this,instead requiring the prospective tenderers to factor this into their proposals.

What is also of significant note in the Current situation is the rather rapid increase in demand for Bus Services throughout the GDA..

For example,in the period 2009 - 2012 the Peak Vehicle Requirement fell from 936 to 798 vehicles,which represents a very large loss of capacity,when placed alongside the current increased demand,some of which is being met by a fire-brigade response of retaining older vehicles originally scheduled for withdrawal.

The current situation,once again,underlines the basic soundness of the 2002 Forum on Public Transport report compiled for Mary O Rourke,which would have allowed the Private Sector to set-up and operate a tranche of New Routes,in addition to Dublin Bus retaining and upgrading it's then existing network.

However,in the light of O Rourke's successor Seamus Brennan's decision not to act upon the reports recommendations,we are where we are ....:rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote: »

All physical infrastructure owned by Dublin Bus pre 2012,is outside of the NTA's scope.

why? It's all owned by the state and has been paid for by the state / travelling public anyway...

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote:

why? It's all owned by the state and has been paid for by the state / travelling public anyway...

It does seem odd that the rest of the government agencies rely on OPW to purchase/find buildings for them but Dublin Bus is different. I presume it's because CIE is a semi-state?

It's all academic really. If the depots were to be either operated as shared resources or given to a private company, the DB unions would be out in force to block it from happening. Thin end of the edge, race to the bottom, eroding of working conditions, yellow pack something or other, the cliches address endless.

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

There's nothing new in any of this,as it (and other issues) has already been comprehensively studied by the NTA...

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/3._Technical_Report_on_Contract_Options_-_Dublin_Bus_September_2013.pdf

Page 11,4.1.1



All physical infrastructure owned by Dublin Bus pre 2012,is outside of the NTA's scope.

Whilst the NTA in this report,do suggest providing such infrastructure should the partial tendering process begin,what they have now actually decided is to refrain from this,instead requiring the prospective tenderers to factor this into their proposals.

What is also of significant note in the Current situation is the rather rapid increase in demand for Bus Services throughout the GDA..

For example,in the period 2009 - 2012 the Peak Vehicle Requirement fell from 936 to 798 vehicles,which represents a very large loss of capacity,when placed alongside the current increased demand,some of which is being met by a fire-brigade response of retaining older vehicles originally scheduled for withdrawal.

The current situation,once again,underlines the basic soundness of the 2002 Forum on Public Transport report compiled for Mary O Rourke,which would have allowed the Private Sector to set-up and operate a tranche of New Routes,in addition to Dublin Bus retaining and upgrading it's then existing network.

However,in the light of O Rourke's successor Seamus Brennan's decision not to act upon the reports recommendations,we are where we are ....:rolleyes:

I'm aware that they were not going to be given facilities - however that did not preclude subcontracting the maintenance/storage to Dublin Bus.

From what I'm reading in the earlier post above the impression given is that this option is gone.

I don't see what the issue about fleet expansion is - some buses are being used for 16 years rather than 12. The NTA stumped up the funds to facilitate that.

It's a sensible way of increasing the fleet size in times when funding is at a premium.

The fleet size is now about 970 buses which is a solid increase.

The bottom fell out of the economy and the passenger numbers weren't there - of course the fleet size fell.

bg07

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm aware that they were not going to be given facilities - however that did not preclude subcontracting the maintenance/storage to Dublin Bus.

From what I'm reading in the earlier post above the impression given is that this option is gone.

I don't see what the issue about fleet expansion is - some buses are being used for 16 years rather than 12. The NTA stumped up the funds to facilitate that.

It's a sensible way of increasing the fleet size in times when funding is at a premium.

The fleet size is now about 970 buses which is a solid increase.

The bottom fell out of the economy and the passenger numbers weren't there - of course the fleet size fell.

Pre 2000 buses were not wheelchair accessible. This may also have been a factor that encouraged the earlier retirement of buses in the last couple of year.

LXFlyer

bg07 wrote: »

Pre 2000 buses were not wheelchair accessible. This may also have been a factor that encouraged the earlier retirement of buses in the last couple of year.

They were eliminated within the normal 12 year life cycle by 2011, which is standard across the bus industry.

The fleet size fell because the passenger numbers weren't there, but the fleet now stands at 971 buses - it has been increasing steadily over the last three years.

Vic_08

bg07 wrote: »

Pre 2000 buses were not wheelchair accessible. This may also have been a factor that encouraged the earlier retirement of buses in the last couple of year.

The step entrance buses are long gone at this stage, DB has already sold on about 200 low-floor deckers.

The big UK groups are only now finishing with the last of their step-entrance olympians, ahead of the Jan 2017 deadline.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm aware that they were not going to be given facilities - however that did not preclude subcontracting the maintenance/storage to Dublin Bus.

From what I'm reading in the earlier post above the impression given is that this option is gone.

I don't see what the issue about fleet expansion is - some buses are being used for 16 years rather than 12. The NTA stumped up the funds to facilitate that.

It's a sensible way of increasing the fleet size in times when funding is at a premium.

The fleet size is now about 970 buses which is a solid increase.

The bottom fell out of the economy and the passenger numbers weren't there - of course the fleet size fell.

The Maintenance/Storage subcontracting issue was quite rapidly put aside,as it would have involved a fairly intricate set of interactions between PSO and Commercial operations.

There is no "Issue" about fleet expansion per se,except the speed with which demand is outstripping supply.

The Forum on Public Transport agreed on a Peak Vehicle Requirement for Dublin of c 1,150 vehicles,with the 150 to be operated by the Private Sector and further expansion to include a 10% private sector involvement clause.

The reality now is the NTA has to fund more improvements in the short term,than it may have expected to,and this alone is placing stresses on the original plan and timeframe.

In the meantime,actual large scale improvements are quite scarce right now,which may be causing a degree of managerial uncertainty as well as administrative committment ...:)

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Maintenance/Storage subcontracting issue was quite rapidly put aside,as it would have involved a fairly intricate set of interactions between PSO and Commercial operations.

There is no "Issue" about fleet expansion per se,except the speed with which demand is outstripping supply.

The Forum on Public Transport agreed on a Peak Vehicle Requirement for Dublin of c 1,150 vehicles,with the 150 to be operated by the Private Sector and further expansion to include a 10% private sector involvement clause.

The reality now is the NTA has to fund more improvements in the short term,than it may have expected to,and this alone is placing stresses on the original plan and timeframe.

In the meantime,actual large scale improvements are quite scarce right now,which may be causing a degree of managerial uncertainty as well as administrative committment ...:)

With the best will in the world we'd all love to see rapid fleet expansion, but we are coming of the worst recession in living memory and people need to have realistic expectations given the fact that funding isn't exactly growing on trees right now.

Annasopra

Whats happening here?

devnull

Rumour has it that BE won the Waterford tender, however it's simply hearsay so this post comes with a health warning.

dublinstevie

The private companies
1.dont want the poxy routes on offer as there are no profits
2.the private companies dint meet the criteria

Which means they stay with Dublin Bus which the NTA dont want because it will look like egg on face,so the whole thing is being dragged out

AlekSmart

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Whats happening here?

Closing Date for receipt of tenders extended to Jan 2017.
Decision date to June 2017.
Expected commencement Date "Late" 2017.

Currently Four responses in the process,comprising Bus Atha Cliath,two UK and one French based operator.

Two withdrawals announced,Dualway/RATP joint-venture,and National Express,both citing undue delay as the reason for their decision.

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

Two withdrawals announced,Dualway/RATP joint-venture,and National Express,both citing undue delay as the reason for their decision.

When I worked in the public sector my colleagues used to say "whatever we get, it'll be the third best option"

devnull

dublinstevie wrote: »

The private companies
1.dont want the poxy routes on offer as there are no profits

Profit has nothing to do with it since any operator who wins a tender gets paid for running the service how much money the service makes makes no difference to them, I know this doesn't suit your agenda but it's what the case is with this tendering system as put forward by the NTA.

By the way, Dublin Bus don't run any routes where there are no profits for free either. They run them because they are paid to do so. Privates don't because they are not paid to do so. Take away Dublin Bus' subsidy and see how long they operate the routes with no profits.

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

Profit has nothing to do with it since any operator who wins a tender gets paid for running the service how much money the service makes makes no difference to them, I know this doesn't suit your agenda but it's what the case is with this tendering system as put forward by the NTA.

Profit questions don't have to be based on the farebox. Are private companies going to run it at a loss if the tender is not high enough for them to operate?

What if they ask for more and threaten to pull out if they don't get it. Shall we all just play a game of brinksmanship with them?

Profit is everything to a private company. So it has everything to do with it and naive to think otherwise.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

Are private companies going to run it at a loss if the tender is not high enough for them to operate?

If they won't win the tender, they won't be operating the route in the first place, do you really think that companies will tender amounts that they know they cannot make any money on?

Come on, be realistic.

What if they ask for more and threaten to pull out if they don't get it.

Because in Ireland, every time someone doesn't get more of whatever they ask for, they never withdraw service in order to force someones hand do they?

The contracts will be watertight so if an operator does withdraw service they will not get paid for it just like Dublin Bus are not paid for services they do not operate in addition they will be fined because the new contracts will have fines in them for non operation of services so it would be even less economical for them to not operate the services than to do so.

Profit is everything to a private company. So it has everything to do with it and naive to think otherwise.

I tend to look at things from the point of view of myself as a public transport user rather than trying to get into some ideological war but I appreciate many people are more interest in the company and their own beliefs than the bigger picture.

For what it's worth I believe that neither model is perfect.

bigredone

Could it be it keeps getting put back time and time again because the private operators are coming in with tenders higher than DB/BE?
What other reason could there be for delay after delay?

devnull

A lot of politics apparently from all sides, including unions, private operators and incumbents from what I've heard.

bigredone

Big wild assumptions from you devnull, do you work for the NTA, dept of transport, DB or BE. Maybe some other vested interest?
I will nail my colours to the mast, no subterfuge from me, i am a DB driver, what are you?
Probably a starbucks barista posting here on their break, ignorant of everything but not shy to voice his expertise.

I can tell you now the Unions have ZERO problem with the 10%, once TUPE was killed stone dead they and the members have no problem with it.
To the best of my knowledge from what i have heard from DB higher ups, DB has no problem with it either, the fact that it keeps getting delayed is proof the private operators cant match the DB tender, so the NTA are scrambling to find something that will allow the private operator to be awarded the 10%.

You keep pushing you agenda/ignorance on here devnull, its funny to read.

devnull

bigredone wrote: »

Big wild assumptions from you devnull, do you work for the NTA, dept of transport, DB or BE. Maybe some other vested interest?

No vested interest at all - unlike yourself as an employee of DB who continues to re-register with the same old **** time and time again, which is rather quite pathetic. The difference is I don't need to re-register time and time again after I get banned or have multiple accounts because of the fact I am quite happy to post everything on the same account and have done for years and that will never change.

I can tell you now the Unions have ZERO problem with the 10%, once TUPE was killed stone dead they and the members have no problem with it.

That's not what the DublinBusDrivers.com site says, if you read through a lot of the notices on there they have argued about taking staff costs out, depot facilities and many other things, or are you telling me the unions are lying on their own website and they have not have a single problem with all of this.

You're also telling me what the recent NTA statements which I will find for you if I need to, which way the tender has been delayed due to issues between parties that needed to be resolved ahead of the next stage of the process is pure lies from them as well?

To the best of my knowledge from what i have heard from DB higher ups, DB has no problem with it either, the fact that it keeps getting delayed is proof the private operators cant match the DB tender, so the NTA are scrambling to find something that will allow the private operator to be awarded the 10%..

If you have so much inside information why don't you post your sources and tell us who it is. It's very simple but you won't because it is all politically motivated like everything is in transport in this country which is why the system is in such a state.

Also I'd be very careful of accusing an agency of corruption on a public forum, since as has been seen in the past in other industries, such rumours without foundation could result both problems for you and the forum itself, so if you are going to make such claims, why don't you post your source and information in a verifiable way.

The difference is with me and you I reference sources and documents, you just reference "what I have heard" and like with all your other usernames, you can never back your arguments up with any facts or proof or any kind of documents from a source other than from your own posts. If you want to make a good argument, you should try doing that.

It's no wonder good posters like LXFlyer no longer post here, the standard of discussion on here has gone right downhill, I was hoping the new year might bring some better standard of discussion to C+T but it seems we're going to have the same kind of things replayed a thousand times like in the past.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

A lot of politics apparently from all sides, including unions, private operators and incumbents from what I've heard.

Some of the "Politics",......."from what I've heard" may have to do with very recent changes in the landscape of the NTA's most favoured model over in London.

https://www.ft.com/content/b7392524-8923-11e5-90de-f44762bf9896

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2016/sep/10/transport-for-londons-financial-numbers-crunch

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/sadiq-khan-plan-to-halve-383m-tfl-bill-will-cost-1500-jobs-a3234876.html

Major challenges now face the TfL hierarchy,and already visitors to London can feel this in both the scarcity of human staff,and when they are found,the ability of those staff to function.

The Standard article mentions one of the issues now finding a footing...agency staff.

The new arrangements are also causing some fairly urgent reassement in the tendering preparations of the Major Bus groups who have had a very trouble free journey over the past 25 years.

Uncertainty is now the order of the day....and at least some of that is washing up along the Irish Public Transport coastline in the very recent past also.

Nobody want's to commit....Tenderer or Tenderee

bigredone

devnull wrote: »

No vested interest at all - unlike yourself as an employee of DB who continues to re-register with the same old **** time and time again, which is rather quite pathetic. The difference is I don't need to re-register time and time again after I get banned or have multiple accounts because of the fact I am quite happy to post everything on the same account and have done for years and that will never change.



That's not what the DublinBusDrivers.com site says, if you read through a lot of the notices on there they have argued about taking staff costs out, depot facilities and many other things, or are you telling me the unions are lying on their own website and they have not have a single problem with all of this.

You're also telling me what the recent NTA statements which I will find for you if I need to, which way the tender has been delayed due to issues between parties that needed to be resolved ahead of the next stage of the process is pure lies from them as well?



If you have so much inside information why don't you post your sources and tell us who it is. It's very simple but you won't because it is all politically motivated like everything is in transport in this country which is why the system is in such a state.

Also I'd be very careful of accusing an agency of corruption on a public forum, since as has been seen in the past in other industries, such rumours without foundation could result both problems for you and the forum itself, so if you are going to make such claims, why don't you post your source and information in a verifiable way.

The difference is with me and you I reference sources and documents, you just reference "what I have heard" and like with all your other usernames, you can never back your arguments up with any facts or proof or any kind of documents from a source other than from your own posts. If you want to make a good argument, you should try doing that.

It's no wonder good posters like LXFlyer no longer post here, the standard of discussion on here has gone right downhill, I was hoping the new year might bring some better standard of discussion to C+T but it seems we're going to have the same kind of things replayed a thousand times like in the past.

Hold your horses devnull, big wild assumptions yet again.
1.not a rereg, you seem to have a hard on with this.

2.HAhahah you base your info of some mickymouse web site, that admits it is not affiliated with siptu, the latest info about Donnybrook is from 2014. If dont even have all the routes listed. Looks like its run as a school project
I will go out on a limb here and suggest a DB bus driver such as my self, who is in regular contact with the unions and who also has a friendly chat with DB management on occasion, might know a touch more that you, a barista in starbucks.

3.Sources , are you for real, you are on here spouting pure ignorance backed up with nothing,(Aircoach from greystones to bray in 30mins)
Here is how it works in the real world, you bump into DB management , and you ask them a question, the answer goes like this "unofficially bigredone this is whats going on.......... now you did not hear that from me"

4.I am hearing info from the horses mouth, unions and management,your getting it of a mickymouse school project website, you are pushing false info on here as if you are a expert and only muddying the waters

5."LXFlyer no longer post here, the standard of discussion on here has gone right downhill" whoever they are you are probably the reason for this.