NI Marriage Equality - Needs to be an election issue for the DUP. Not just petitions.

12Phase

I'm just watching this as an occasional visitor to Northern Ireland, but I'm a bit frustrated with the very apolitical approach being taken when it comes to marriage equality.

Unless this turns into a very big election issue for the DUP or unless their share of the vote reduces substantially, they'll just continue to block the legislation. All the online petitions in the world will fall on deaf ears. They're hard-line religious conservatives and I can't really see that ever changing.

People have to look at more than just the border issue and the Unionist vs Nationalist arguments when voting and more people need to engage.

Only 54.5% voted in assembly elections in 2011.

I can fully understand why many people may be turned off by the political system up there but, if the turnout is low the then the tail wags the dog and you'll end up with these Bible Belt and sectarian politics driving the agenda.

It would seem to me that the single biggest thing that would have an impact would be mobilising socially progressive unionist and people who might not be aligned either way and encouraging them to register and vote for anyone other than DUP, preferably parties with a progressive social policy outlook!

Ten of Swords

Their use of a petition of concern to overturn the majority vote in favour of same sex marriage was very low.

A petition of concern is a mechanism specifically designed to shield communities from political abuse in Northern Ireland and it was grossly misused last November.

12Phase

Yeah it was a fairly serious misuse of the mechanism and I think that probably needs to be investigated as it will turn what is a valuable system into a joke.

Ten of Swords

Good article about petitions of concern

Well the election is due in a month and the DUP have made their position clear, they have said they will continue to block same sex marriage in their 2016 manifesto and while they have the majority of MLAs (38) they can make good on that threat.



About 2 weeks ago this video made by a 15 year old with same sex parents asking his MLA to explain why he voted to block marriage equality went up on youtube. It is articulate, well reasoned and puts forward a powerful message about accountability and discrimination. Fair play to him.

Niemoj

Hopefully come May the DUP is absolutely obliterated. The North last had elections in 2011 I believe and so much has changed since then that I hope that people's opinions and indeed who they vote for has changed too!

12Phase

Very unlikely unfortunately. People vote along the sectarian divide and the turnout is typically very low.

Ten of Swords

That's such a shame because this poll was conducted just after the ROI marriage referendum and it showed high support for marriage equality in NI.

The poll found that people living in Greater Belfast are more likely to back gay marriage than those living in other areas of Northern Ireland - at 75% versus 63% respectively.

It must be difficult for LGBT members of the unionist community knowing the government and elected representatives are not supportive, but you vote for them anyway because that's the way it is.

12Phase

It's a broken system though. Most votes up there are still cast on issues of national identity, not policy. I suspect the DUP's LGBT stuff is 'riding in' on that rather than being a major voting issue.

Ten of Swords

Sinn Fein are looking to put it front and center of their manifesto. Not sure how much good that will do now, it's the final week before the vote.

Belfast Telegraph article

Latest opinion poll predicts that DUP and Sinn Fein will slightly increase holdings at the expense of SDLP and Independents.

Rick_

Interesting on that little screenshot of the DUP's manifesto they say they want to bring another law in line with the rest of the UK, but don't want to bring marriage equality in line with the rest of the UK. So, they want to be like the rest of the UK, but only the parts that suit them. :rolleyes:

12Phase

A la carte unionism ...

It seems to me they're actually trying to be part of a UK that ceased to exist in about 1950 when it comes to some of their policies.

On social issues like this, they seem to be far more in line with aspects of the US Republican Party than the UK political mainstream.

Leonard Hofstadter

12Phase wrote: »

A la carte unionism ...

It seems to me they're actually trying to be part of a UK that ceased to exist in about 1950 when it comes to some of their policies.

On social issues like this, they seem to be far more in line with aspects of the US Republican Party than the UK political mainstream.

It's very odd indeed. Most people in NI actually do favour marriage equality irrespective of the sectarian divide. Northern Ireland is certainly a more socially conservative country than anywhere else in the UK or Ireland, but it's not the provincial backwater the DUP would like to think it is.

They say they want to be like the rest of the UK, but they don't really. Sure the whole furore about the flags was another example, what was proposed with the flags would actually have brought NI in line with the rest of the UK but no the DUP didn't want that. A la carte Unionism would be a better way to describe it. They don't have much time for the English up there either, it's more of a bond with the Scots they have more than anything in my experience, and even then, Scotland has moved on too what with over 40% of their population still wanting independence from the rest of the UK.

Ten of Swords

In an interview with BBC last week Arlene Foster said that the DUP will use a 'petition of concern' to stop any attempts to change the law regarding the definition of marriage in Northern Ireland (no surprises there) but she also said that Internet trolls were influencing her decision on this,

If activists want to have a conversation about where they are coming from, do they seriously think they are going to influence me by sending me abuse?

No, they are not going to influence me by sending me abuse - in fact, they are going to send me in the opposite direction and people need to reflect on that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-37791366

She has also said that many gay people in Northern Ireland don't want marriage redefined and are happy to live in a civil partnership (probably true) but as a result the whole debate has become a 'storm in a teacup'.

Video extract of the interview in this link,

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-37798592

I find her comments very surprising, particularly coming from a political leader. As first minister she is tasked with looking after all citizens of Northern Ireland, not just the ones she approves of. The complete unwillingness to debate the issue and the valid threat to use petitions of concern to counter the majority of MLAs that support same sex marriage must be a particularly hard slap in the face of any gay person in NI who does want to marry their partner. Looks like this issue will be held in limbo for at least another 5 years.

Annasopra

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I find her comments very surprising, particularly coming from a political leader. As first minister she is tasked with looking after all citizens of Northern Ireland, not just the ones she approves of. The complete unwillingness to debate the issue and the valid threat to use petitions of concern to counter the majority of MLAs that support same sex marriage must be a particularly hard slap in the face of any gay person in NI who does want to marry their partner. Looks like this issue will be held in limbo for at least another 5 years.

I don't find it surprising given the history of her party and indeed Northern Ireland.

http://notchesblog.com/2014/09/16/ian-paisley-1926-2014-and-the-save-ulster-from-sodomy-campaign/

JupiterKid

The DUP are a bunch of bigots. They'll never change. Sad to be an LGBT person in NI who wants to marry their same-sex partner.

The DUP detest the gay community.

Annasopra

Petition of concern and DUP veto effectively gone. 1 step closer for marriage equality in NI.

lottpaul

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Petition of concern and DUP veto effectively gone. 1 step closer for marriage equality in NI.

Hopefully so but on BBC today it was reported that Jim Allister of the TUV has said he would sign a petition of concern to block marriage equality. That would mean that just 1 UUP (or other MLA) would be needed to reach the 30 votes needed to trigger the veto.

SILVAMAN

That's like asking an Arab country to recognise the state of Israel.

Annasopra

lottpaul wrote: »

Hopefully so but on BBC today it was reported that Jim Allister of the TUV has said he would sign a petition of concern to block marriage equality. That would mean that just 1 UUP (or other MLA) would be needed to reach the 30 votes needed to trigger the veto.

Yeah and only 1 UUP candidate said he would support it. With Mike Nesbitt gone it looks to me like the liberal minded UUP could potentially be sidelined. However overall it does weaken the Unionist conservative stranglehold on the issue. As I said - a step closer - maybe not the final step needed yet.

Leonard Hofstadter

Well given how much closer SF and the DUP now are in terms of the number of seats, I'd imagine SF will insist upon certain things off the DUP that they couldn't get before otherwise they will allow direct rule. I would hope, given how much of an issue they've made of it recently, that equal marriage will be one of those things - they've also mentioned the Irish Language Act as well as something that they want.

Peregrinus

SILVAMAN wrote: »

That's like asking an Arab country to recognise the state of Israel.

Ah, but three Arab countries do recognise Israel, including Egypt, which is the most populous Arab country of them all. Never give up hope!

BlinkingLights

SF could simply make it impossible to form a government if this is blocked again and it would fall over to another election in few weeks that would likely cause DUP's vote to fall further if the whole thing was just about a homophobic stance.

Annasopra

BlinkingLights wrote: »

SF could simply make it impossible to form a government if this is blocked again and it would fall over to another election in few weeks that would likely cause DUP's vote to fall further if the whole thing was just about a homophobic stance.

I think there are other stumbling blocks too plus a lot of the DUP voters support their stance!

BlinkingLights

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think there are other stumbling blocks too plus a lot of the DUP voters support their stance!

A majority of the NI population don't though. It could get very weird.

Ten of Swords

BlinkingLights wrote: »

SF could simply make it impossible to form a government if this is blocked again and it would fall over to another election in few weeks

I don't think any party can do that indefinitely, wouldn't that just end in direct rule?

BlinkingLights

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I don't think any party can do that indefinitely, wouldn't that just end in direct rule?

It happened before. From 2002 until 2007. Northern Ireland barely has had a decade of continuous devolved government. This one could really be a big test of whether it's capable of self governance without resorting to irreconcilable political differences.

It would be incredibly stupid as they'd entirely lose their voice as Brexit ploughs ahead.

JupiterKid

The sad and depressing thing is that the polarised nature of politics in NI along religious/tribal lines means that inter-tribal fighting and one upmanship will always trump much more pressing and important economic and social concerns for the province. As long as SF and the DUP remain the largest political parties up there this won't change.

Sad but sadly true. Instead of focusing on the the fallout of Brexit and what it could mean for NI, the DUP and SF are more concerned with tit for tat sniping at each other. This is to the detriment of NI and reflects a deeply immature political environment.

Ten of Swords

Former NI health minister Jim Wells (DUP), who previously opposed lifting the ban on MSM blood donations, has threatened to split the DUP if there is any agreement with Sinn Fein on the issue of same sex marriage in Northern Ireland. I'm kind of surprised that there are murmurings about it in the first place but I think, given their showing in the last election, they have to make some hard choices if they want to retain their position.

Unsurprisingly this dinosaur is throwing a tantrum.

Belfast Telegraph

CiDeRmAn

Hi, quick question that popped into my head and this forum and thread seems to fit the bill

Who on earth do Northern Irish unionists, who happen to be LGBTQ, vote for?
There isn't, from what I can see, a "liberal" party that embraces the union in Ulster at all, yet there must be a demographic that's disenfranchised as a result.
On the republican side both major parties appear to be LGBTQ friendly in their outlook, but the unionist side seems bereft of LGBTQ representation.
The Alliance party?
Is this the only answer I wonder?

If this is derailing the thread, feel free to delete.
Thanks!

Annasopra

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Hi, quick question that popped into my head and this forum and thread seems to fit the bill

Who on earth do Northern Irish unionists, who happen to be LGBTQ, vote for?
There isn't, from what I can see, a "liberal" party that embraces the union in Ulster at all, yet there must be a demographic that's disenfranchised as a result.
On the republican side both major parties appear to be LGBTQ friendly in their outlook, but the unionist side seems bereft of LGBTQ representation.
The Alliance party?
Is this the only answer I wonder?

If this is derailing the thread, feel free to delete.
Thanks!

Alliance/SDLP/Green Party/PUP/Progressive independent unionists or they just stay UUP/DUP possibly even TUV. There are a lot lgbt voters who would still vote DUP or UUP. UUP has had a few prominent gay members too such as current Cllr Jeffrey Dudgeon (Norn Irons David Norris) and David Trimbles adviser Steven King.
.

CiDeRmAn

Thanks for that

Annasopra

Can't see marriage equality happening anytime soon with DUP now putting Tories in power.

Ten of Swords

Pride flag flying outside Stormont house on August 4th, authorised by NI secretary James Brokenshire

Lmklad

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/uniformed-garda-and-psni-officers-march-in-belfast-pride-parade-800943.html

Times are changing.

JupiterKid

That's great to hear. No doubt the DUP bigots were there protesting as well, as they always do. But I have a question - why were the Gardai marching in Belfast? Surely NI is not their jurisdiction.

baby and crumble

JupiterKid wrote: »

That's great to hear. No doubt the DUP bigots were there protesting as well, as they always do. But I have a question - why were the Gardai marching in Belfast? Surely NI is not their jurisdiction.

I'd imagine it's part of a cross-border initiative to foster good relationships.

Peregrinus

JupiterKid wrote: »

That's great to hear. No doubt the DUP bigots were there protesting as well, as they always do. But I have a question - why were the Gardai marching in Belfast? Surely NI is not their jurisdiction.

So? You don't need to have the status of a police officer to participate in a Pride parade.

Officially, most likely, they would have been invited by their opposite numbers in the PSNI and they would be there as guests. A Garda contingent marching in a pride parade in NI is no different than a PSNI team playing in a football game in the Republic.

Lmklad

The Deputy Chief Constable of the PSNI invited U.K. forces and the Gardai.

Annasopra

I think it was a subtle showing of solidarity for the Gardai who are not allowed march in uniform in pride parades here in the Republic

Lmklad

That's the thing Joey, Gardai would still need permission from here to go up there. Guess things are changing here too.

Ten of Swords

Talks between Sinn Fein and the DUP with a view to forming a government have ended in failure. The reason is due to an inability to agree on a number of key issues, including same sex marriage

Michelle O'Neill (SF)
Over the last 10 months, the focus of these negotiations has been on the delivery of rights which are the norm everywhere else on these islands...

Many of these rights are fundamental parts of the Good Friday and other agreements. They are for the benefit of all sections of society and threaten no-one...

Furthermore, marriage equality, language rights, the Bill of Rights and the right to coroners inquests are supported by a majority in the assembly and in wider society.

http://www.newstalk.com/Westminster-moves-to-impose-budget-on-Stormont

Ten of Swords

A bill is being debated in Westminster today that states if the Stormont assembly is not up and running g by October 21st then Westminter can legislate same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland to bring it in line with the rest of the UK re ssm

Hopefully this will pass.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/0708/1060814-same-sex-marriage-ni/

gmisk

It passed!
Same-sex marriage and abortion to be legalised in North if no power-sharing by 21 October https://jrnl.ie/4717703

Very exciting!

Ten of Swords

Delighted, let's see if the DUP start making concessions to Sinn Fein in order to get Stormont up and running so they can ban this.

My money says they won't, they'll take it on the chin because they can say they never voted for it, Britain did

Annasopra

But Sinn Fein won't agree to form a new executive if it leaves it open to a DUP veto on this issue!!!!

mr.anonymous

Very happy to see this. If not for us, for how much it'll piss the DUP off.

Ten of Swords

2 days before bonfire night too

L1011

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But Sinn Fein won't agree to form a new executive if it leaves it open to a DUP veto on this issue!!!!

DUP are three short to veto this and the UUP have said they won't help them.

wiggle16

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Delighted, let's see if the DUP start making concessions to Sinn Fein in order to get Stormont up and running so they can ban this.

My money says they won't, they'll take it on the chin because they can say they never voted for it, Britain did

Agreed, but the image of Arlene Foster having a complete sh*tfit over the predicament she now finds herself in is just so.... satisfying.

I hope she has an awesome 12th of July :cool:

Ten of Swords

Nothing like the thought that LGBT people might be getting one over on them to get the DUP back to work

They're already looking for ways to sabotage the legislation by tabling their own amendments to the bill

Three DUP Lords – Lord Morrow, Lord Browne of Belmont, and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown – have tabled an amendment on marriage “requiring the Secretary of State to issue statutory guidance supporting freedom of expression and freedom of conscience in educational institutions in relation to beliefs about the definition of marriage”.

This would allow businesses and organisations to discriminate against same-sex couples by not letting them avail of their products or services.

Peers Lords Cormack and Trimble have tabled a second amendment which extends the deadline to April 10, 2020.

Baroness O’Loan and DUP Lord Hay of Ballymore have tabled an amendment which states that the secretary of state for Northern Ireland must conduct a consultation with Members of the Legislative Assembly (MLAs) in Northern Ireland before taking any action.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahalothman/peers-derail-same-sex-abortion

I presume this is the same Lord Trimble who is in the papers right now saying how he had done a personal U-Turn on his opinion of LGBT marriage since his daughter just married her partner

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49004816

Ten of Swords

Only 3 weeks to go