Mortgages for the regular public

0gac3yjefb5sv7

I actually find it so frustrating in this country that there is such a housing mess whereby people who work hard can't afford to buy a home for themselves. Fair enough if you decide to drop out of the education system and then you may have some difficulties later on but for people who have worked their ass off to get through college and masters to then just possibly be able to buy a small apartment is very frustrating. How did it get to this point? Interested to hear any thoughts on this.

Wesser

I agree. It's crazy. I have posted about this before. People who work hard get naught, it's so unfair. It's so hard to buy a house!!!!

Eg People who work hard get no medical card, people who do naught get medical card, makes no sense at all.

I expect I will get slated for saying so but that's how I feel.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Exactly. I also find it odd that 90% of houses etc are 300-400k+ whereas only 10%ish should have salaries large enough to buy these. The figures don't really add up.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Exactly. I also find it odd that 90% of houses etc are 300-400k+ whereas only 10%ish should have salaries large enough to buy these. The figures don't really add up.

Two people with two incomes of 50k would be potentially in a position to buy at that level

The Central bank have the current rules in place to prevent what happened in the last crash.

Just because you work, doesn't mean you are "entitled" to a mortgage to buy your own home.

Are the prices you are talking about Dublin prices? Certainly wouldn't be the case for 90% of houses in the country overall.

Skatedude

I've worked damn hard for 30+ years,(since i was 10) got good collage qualifications etc and now due to the 3.5 times salary rule for mortgages, I either live at home with my mother into my forties or move out of the area where my family and friends have lived for 3 to 4 generations to the middle of nowhere or try for a 1 room dump of an apartment in the worst area's of dublin?

fair dosen't even come into it.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Two people with two incomes of 50k would be potentially in a position to buy at that level

The Central bank have the current rules in place to prevent what happened in the last crash.

Just because you work, doesn't mean you are "entitled" to a mortgage to buy your own home.

Are the prices you are talking about Dublin prices? Certainly wouldn't be the case for 90% of houses in the country overall.

Yes but how many couples would both people be on 50k. I'm talking about the majority of the public, bar staff, receptionists, hairdressers, cashiers etc. Also you are not "entilted" to it for free. But you should be able to get one with ease if you work regular hours. Working your ass off should get you a very nice house.

Edit: also two people "should" "potentially" be in a position on those salaries. First of all you should be able to buy your own house and second if you are looking enough to have a partner earning 50k also then you be able to get a home no problem!

snickerpuss

Stheno wrote: »

Two people with two incomes of 50k would be potentially in a position to buy at that level

The Central bank have the current rules in place to prevent what happened in the last crash.

Just because you work, doesn't mean you are "entitled" to a mortgage to buy your own home.

Are the prices you are talking about Dublin prices? Certainly wouldn't be the case for 90% of houses in the country overall.

50k is not an average salary. Even for professional jobs.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Yes but how many couples would both people be on 50k. I'm talking about the majority of the public, bar staff, receptionists, hairdressers, cashiers etc. Also you are not "entilted" to it for free. But you should be able to get one with ease if you work regular hours. Working your ass off should get you a very nice house.

So what level of income/house prices do you think should there be as a ratio?

To get a house for 300k, the income multiple is 3.5 with a 10% deposit for a FTB, and 20% for anyone else.

So that brings the mortgage down to 270k/240k

For an individual that means an income of 77k/68.5k

For a couple it means a joint income of the same, which means if they earned the same amount each, their average income would be 38.5k or 34.25k each.

The average industrial wage is about 35 k, so for a couple on the average industrial wage, with the deposit, it's possible. Median wage was reported at 32.5k last year for a person working full time, so again, not too far off being eminently achievable, perhaps with a larger deposit.

Not so for individuals on the same.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Exactly. I also find it odd that 90% of houses etc are 300-400k+ whereas only 10%ish should have salaries large enough to buy these. The figures don't really add up.

90% of houses are over 300k?
I don't think so.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

So what level of income/house prices do you think should there be as a ratio?

To get a house for 300k, the income multiple is 3.5 with a 10% deposit for a FTB, and 20% for anyone else.

So that brings the mortgage down to 270k/240k

For an individual that means an income of 77k/68.5k

For a couple it means a joint income of the same, which means if they earned the same amount each, their average income would be 38.5k or 34.25k each.

The average industrial wage is about 35 k, so for a couple on the average industrial wage, with the deposit, it's possible.

Not so for individuals on the same.

I would argue the average wage of 35k is definitely very high for anyone in their 20s which is when a lot of people would look for a home. According to the wages at the moment, a 3 bed house should be between 200-300k but it's not even close to that in Dublin. You shouldn't have to bank on having a partner earning a huge salary also to have the "possibility" of owning a home!

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I would argue the average wage of 35k is definitely very high for anyone in their 20s which is when a lot of people would look for a home. According to the wages at the moment, a 3 bed house should be between 200-300k but it's not even close to that in Dublin. You shouldn't have to bank on having a partner earning a huge salary also to have the "possibility" of owning a home!

Here's the CSO stats from last year on the average industrial wage, and the median industrial wage.

No one is saying you can't own a home, just perhaps not in one of the most expensive property markets in the country tbh.

What would you like to happen here? Price control?

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Here's the CSO stats from last year on the average industrial wage, and the median industrial wage.

No one is saying you can't own a home, just perhaps not in one of the most expensive property markets in the country tbh.

What would you like to happen here? Price control?

But you have to live in this county to earn the higher wages as it is where the jobs are. I'd happily live in Carlow if I could move my job there! Im not an economist but I would like whatever fiscal adjustments need to be made in order for regular people to buy a home. Not a fancy home just a regular place to live. Think that should be the min reward for working all your life.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

But you have to live in this county to earn the higher wages as it is where the jobs are. I'd happily live in Carlow if I could move my job there! Im not an economist but I would like whatever fiscal adjustments need to be made in order for regular people to buy a home. Not a fancy home just a regular place to live. Think that should be the min reward for working all your life.

How many years have you been working?

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

How many years have you been working?

Why?

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Why?

Your posts are contradictory, on one hand you suggest people in their twenties who are at the beginning of a working life should be able to buy, then that the min. reward for working hard all your life should be the ability to buy a house.

Working hard all your life to me, is working for 30 years plus, not being in your first or second job after school/college.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Your posts are contradictory, on one hand you suggest people in their twenties who are at the beginning of a working life should be able to buy, then that the min. reward for working hard all your life should be the ability to buy a house.

Working hard all your life to me, is working for 30 years plus, not being in your first or second job after school/college.

They are certainly not contradictory. Both say that you should be able to get in the ladder when you are relatively young and pay off your mortgage within your lifetime of work.

Stheno

Also I did a search on daft for properties in Dublin for under 200k.

There are 643 of them of which 183 are under 150k.
http://www.daft.ie/dublin/property-for-sale/?s[mxp]=200000

Skatedude

snickerpuss wrote: »

50k is not an average salary. Even for professional jobs.

I agree, 50k ? i'm a damn good maintenance tech and i would hope to be on that by the time i retire. I've worked for decades with IBM and Hp etc and just barely made it to 30k before they fired all of us last year at the age of 43.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

But you have to live in this county to earn the higher wages as it is where the jobs are. I'd happily live in Carlow if I could move my job there! Im not an economist but I would like whatever fiscal adjustments need to be made in order for regular people to buy a home. Not a fancy home just a regular place to live. Think that should be the min reward for working all your life.

I know people that live in Carlow & commute to Dublin. Wouldn't suit me, but they don't mind.
That's supply & demand.
Demand is highest in Dublin ( maybe other cities, I don't know them too well ) so obviously prices are higher.
Prices are higher in parts of Dublin that are most desirable.
Everyone doesn't have the right to buy a house where they want it!
Buy where you can afford or rent in the area you want to live.

I don't understand this thing where people feel someone else / the government should help them buy as house.

Stheno

Skatedude wrote: »

I agree, 50k ? i'm a damn good maintenance tech and i would hope to be on that by the time i retire. I've worked for decades with IBM and Hp etc and just barely made it to 30k before they fired all of us last year at the age of 43.

See my post earlier on the difference between individuals and couples and how couples both earning average/median wage can afford homes.

Then see the list of over 600 properties in Dublin for less than 200k.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

They are certainly not contradictory. Both say that you should be able to get in the ladder when you are relatively young and pay off your mortgage within your lifetime of work.

There's plenty of accommodation for sale in Dublin for less than 200k, it might not be where you want to live, but it's there.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Also I did a search on daft for properties in Dublin for under 200k.

There are 643 of them of which 183 are under 150k.
http://www.daft.ie/dublin/property-for-sale/?s[mxp]=200000

That includes 1 beds, apartments, and poor areas as well as areas well outside the city.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

bubblypop wrote: »

There's plenty of accommodation for sale in Dublin for less than 200k, it might not be where you want to live, but it's there.

But even if an individual is on 30k ( in their 20s is quite close to the average ) they would need to have a partner on 30k AND even then you can only get a mortgage for 180k to live in a area well outside town or poor area.

That's also disregarding the saving for a deposit while paying increasing rent. Absolutely ridiculous. No one should think that is OK.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

That includes 1 beds, apartments, and poor areas as well as areas well outside the city.

You are the person who posted that 90% of properties are 3-400k?

In total at the moment in Dublin there are 2519 properties for sale for 425k or less, so as a percentage of properties in that price bracket, 25.5% of those properties are for sale for less than 200k?

You also posted in your op that

for people who have worked their ass off to get through college and masters to then just possibly be able to buy a small apartment is very frustrating.

Did you expect to finish college, start work and buy a house in your chosen area a couple of years later? Honestly your posts are coming across as being entirely unrealistic imo.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

But even if an individual is on 30k ( in their 20s is quite close to the average ) they would need to have a partner on 30k AND even then you can only get a mortgage for 180k to live in a area well outside town or poor area.

That's also disregarding the saving for a deposit while paying increasing rent. Absolutely ridiculous. No one should think that is OK.

That's the market.

What do you suggest?

Eugene Norman

bubblypop wrote: »

I know people that live in Carlow & commute to Dublin. Wouldn't suit me, but they don't mind.
That's supply & demand.
Demand is highest in Dublin ( maybe other cities, I don't know them too well ) so obviously prices are higher.
Prices are higher in parts of Dublin that are most desirable.
Everyone doesn't have the right to buy a house where they want it!
Buy where you can afford or rent in the area you want to live.

I don't understand this thing where people feel someone else / the government should help them buy as house.

The government has helped people not paying their mortgages keep their houses. This whole "supply and demand" is bunk. Irelands housing market is manipulated to keep prices artificially high.

eeguy

You also have to take into account that it's high housing cost is in the best interest of the 90% of the population that are home owners.

"Measures to reduce the cost of housing?
No thanks! That'll make me look poorer on paper"

Meanwhile everyone else is stuck with the modern reality that all the good jobs are now in the cities and the thousands of graduates from all over this country and others, plus all those who lost their jobs during the recession ( when that one factory that sustained an entire rural town closed) are moving to the cities pushing the prices of everything up.

Couple this with NIMBYs everywhere, a government that currently is not even functioning, increasing taxation pressure on the very people who have to actually save for a house (as opposed to being wealthy enough to just buy one outright, or "poor" enough to just be given one) and you have the current predicament.

blindside88

Pheonix10 wrote: »

That includes 1 beds, apartments, and poor areas as well as areas well outside the city.

So the arguement has now changed from "there are not affordable properties" to "there are affordable properties but not with the number of bedrooms or in the specific area of Dublin I want". It's a simple case pf supply and demand. I worked in dublin for 4 years and commuted from Carlow. Dublin has the most expensive property in the country. Everyone cannot live there.

Eugene Norman

blindside88 wrote: »

So the arguement has now changed from "there are not affordable properties" to "there are affordable properties but not with the number of bedrooms or in the specific area of Dublin I want". It's a simple case pf supply and demand. I worked in dublin for 4 years and commuted from Carlow. Dublin has the most expensive property in the country. Everyone cannot live there.

Why? At the last census the place was empty. If housing matched population growth then people could live there.

newacc2015

snickerpuss wrote: »

50k is not an average salary. Even for professional jobs.

Depending on the job. A recently qualified accountant can expect to make €45k in their twenties. It would be close to €85k after a few years. The harsh reality is just some people wont be ever in the position to get a mortgage. The state should provide housing for them.

This whole thread has been blaming the CB for people dont being able to get easy credit. The job of the CB is protect the interest of the entire economy. The property crash destroyed the economy and should never be repeated. Hence the mortgage rules

The thing that everyone should be annoyed on is social housing rules. Go to any major American city(even small ones) and you can earn close to €100k a year. Yet you are still entitled to social housing. Your rent will be slightly less than the market rate. Versus living in a DCC area, where if you barely earn more than the minimum wage and you are not entitled to social housing

Instead of blaming the CB for doing their job. People should be pissed with the Government for failing to providing housing for the middle class. Ireland has to be one of the few countries in the Western World, where hard work is punished with high taxes and low amount of services. Versus the UK or USA, where hard work is rewarded.

IMO it is insane that a person on €25k should have to pay full market rent. DCC should be building 20-40 storey apartment blocks for working professionals, like NYC did in the past. I seriously doubt people working for the big four are going to have the same social issues as the residents of Ballymun caused. Working professionals can live in high rise building. High density Upper East Side NYC has little social problems compared to low density Bushwick. If you make a serious dent in housing shortages for professionals, you will start freeing up lower priced housing for social housing, that professionals have had no choice but to live in

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

You are the person who posted that 90% of properties are 3-400k?

In total at the moment in Dublin there are 2519 properties for sale for 425k or less, so as a percentage of properties in that price bracket, 25.5% of those properties are for sale for less than 200k?

You also posted in your op that

Did you expect to finish college, start work and buy a house in your chosen area a couple of years later? Honestly your posts are coming across as being entirely unrealistic imo.

Yes that is exactly what I expected. Not unrealistic. I didn't get a regular qualification, I got a first class honours degree and a masters. A house is a pretty fundamental thing that everyone should be able to afford if they work hard. How low are your expectations?

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Yes that is exactly what I expected. Not unrealistic. I didn't get a regular qualification, I got a first class honours degree and a masters. A house is a pretty fundamental thing that everyone should be able to afford if they work hard. How low are your expectations?

You might be surprised to know they are pretty high.

Do you think that just because you got a good qualification that you should be able to buy a house in your twenties?

Being able to buy a house is dependant on being able to earn the money to prove you can afford the repayments, not on your educational qualifications.

blindside88

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Yes that is exactly what I expected. Not unrealistic. I didn't get a regular qualification, I got a first class honours degree and a masters. A house is a pretty fundamental thing that everyone should be able to afford if they work hard. How low are your expectations?

Really depends on your qualifications (not the class of degree but what it's in) and your technical ability as well where you want to
Live. For example I paid for a wedding and bought a house within 3 years of finishing college without help from family. But as stated I bought in Carlow and not an expensive area of Dublin City

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

You might be surprised to know they are pretty high.

Do you think that just because you got a good qualification that you should be able to buy a house in your twenties?

Being able to buy a house is dependant on being able to earn the money to prove you can afford the repayments, not on your educational qualifications.

Pretty sure they are not. Everyone need a home to live in. I am fully aware their is not entitlement but hard work should allow you to buy a home. Our parents did it.

eeguy

newacc2015 wrote: »

IMO it is insane that a person on €25k should have to pay full market rent. DCC should be building 20-40 storey apartment blocks for working professionals, like NYC did in the past. I seriously doubt people working for the big four are going to have the same social issues as the residents of Ballymun caused. Working professionals can live in high rise building.

This exactly.

There's plenty of land even in the city centre to build high rises. It's ridiculous that the city can barely make it past 4 stories.

High density and proper building management = better and cheaper services for everyone.

Grand Canal Dock should be seen as a prototype for a much larger expansion of housing across the city centre.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Pretty sure they are not. Everyone need a home to live in. I am fully aware their is not entitlement but hard work should allow you to buy a home. Our parents did it.

Being approved for a mortgage is dependant on proving ability to afford/repay.
Plenty of people live in rented accomodation

Why can't you rent until you can afford to buy?

eeguy

Stheno wrote: »

Being approved for a mortgage is dependant on proving ability to afford/repay.
Plenty of people live in rented accomodation

Why can't you rent until you can afford to buy?

Because your rent can cost as much as a mortgage.

Stheno

eeguy wrote: »

Because your rent can cost as much as a mortgage.

Jaysis, it's 2004 again.

KERSPLAT!

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Yes but how many couples would both people be on 50k. I'm talking about the majority of the public, bar staff, receptionists, hairdressers, cashiers etc. Also you are not "entilted" to it for free. But you should be able to get one with ease if you work regular hours. Working your ass off should get you a very nice house.

Edit: also two people "should" "potentially" be in a position on those salaries. First of all you should be able to buy your own house and second if you are looking enough to have a partner earning 50k also then you be able to get a home no problem!

Hold on a second. Did you miss out on the huge crash a few years ago. People taking out huge mortgages, second mortgages, mortgages for holiday homes, etc and ultimately ending up in a position where by they are unable to pay for them.

I work regular hours but there's no way, in my financial situation, should I be given a mortgage. It would be madness for a bank to even consider it.

There are rules in place, there are reasons for these rules. You don't have go look too far back to see why.

eeguy

Stheno wrote: »

Jaysis, it's 2004 again.

At least I could get a mortgage in 2004.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Pretty sure they are not..

Pretty sure my expectations are not particularly high based on what?

relax carry on

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Pretty sure they are not. Everyone need a home to live in. I am fully aware their is not entitlement but hard work should allow you to buy a home. Our parents did it.

Nothing ever stays the same. Just because our parents generation was able to purchase their own home doesn't necessarily mean that we will as well. Ireland is different place to what it was 30 or 40 years ago.
My wife and I have been looking to buy for over 3 years now but still no luck. But we are not prepared to buy at any price just for the sake of owning a property. Renting does have its own advantages too.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Pretty sure my expectations are not particularly high based on what?

Talking about my expectations.

mansize

Where are these affordable homes going to be?

What will the criteria to purchase them be?

Will those living in the area object to affordable homes being built, putting downward pressure on their house values?

Where's the incentive for the developers to build these affordable houses?

Stheno

eeguy wrote: »

Because this issue doesn't affect him.

He owns a house. It's in his best interest that demand is high, so his property increases in value should be need to sell it or leverage it against something.

She, not he.

Try and get your facts straight.

And I do not own a house in Dublin.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

mansize wrote: »

Where are these affordable homes going to be?

What will the criteria to purchase them be?

Will those living in the area object to affordable homes being built, putting downward pressure on their house values?

Where's the incentive for the developers to build these affordable houses?

I don't have all these answers and neither do you. There are people much more educated in this topic that could be paid to develop a long term housing strategy.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Talking about my expectations.

I think you need to rethink your expectations.
If you cannot afford to buy the house you want, in the area you want, then you need to lower your expectations.
Buy where you can afford or rent where you want to live.

Just because you went to college does not entitle you to buy the house where you want.

Stheno

eeguy wrote: »

Apologies. Your gender wasn't clear from your posts.


But my point still stands.

How would my not owning a house in Dublin mean that I want to see prices kept artificially high? I want to buy a house in Dublin?

mansize

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I don't have all these answers and neither do you. There are people much more educated in this topic that could be paid to develop a long term housing strategy.

You asked why people may be against affordable homes... I presented a number of issues surrounding them, and you seem to ignore them.

Its not easy to develop a housing strategy that pleases everyone.


Would you consider a two bed flat to get on the property ladder?

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I don't have all these answers and neither do you. There are people much more educated in this topic that could be paid to develop a long term housing strategy.

The government should be providing social housing for less well off people, it's not their job to give you a fancy house in as nice area that you want to live in.

kona

To be fair even if you save and get a deposit , approval and all that. It's still a ****ing disgrace that there are people getting housed at lower subsidised rents and subsidised mortgages, when the very people getting it up the gicker every payday paying the taxes to fund these subsidies and social housing are the ones who can't afford to live in their own house.

Would be nice to get ftb a scheme where their tax is used to buy their house 60/40. maybe then when they pay off their 60% they have the option to pay off the outstanding to the exchequer and own the house outright.

It's a bizarre situation that maybe 6 years ago you couldn't give some houses away in Dublin, now it's a shortage. Somebody is making a killing from it all.