Cyclists not welcome at Powerscourt Waterfall ?

jb2007

The usual route from Djouce woods through to Powerscourt on MTB is blocked as of the last week maybe ... anyone know whats up with this ?
They have resurfaced the paths in powerscourt and used a digger to bank up the usual crossing point ... Obviously you can still get in but its messier ..

Tenzor07

Do you mean Powerscourt Estate or the Waterfall?

jb2007

sorry, meant to say, the waterfall .

Tenzor07

Technically speaking you have to enter through the main gates and it's €6 for an adult....

jb2007

it's a pity as not many will pay to cycle in for a cuppa and a look at the falls whereas it was a nice stop off point and there were always a few cyclist spending a few bob on teas and snacks

uck51js9zml2yt

Your post title is misleading.

I'm sure cyclists are welcome but as has been said, there is an admission charge to the waterfall and the other way was unauthorized.

They also have a coffee shop at the house and entrance is free to it

jb2007

I don't think its misleading at all.
Not sure if I was mad enough to pay admission I would feel very welcome tbh.

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

Your post title is misleading.
there is an admission charge to the waterfall and the other way was unauthorized.

According to who? Is there not a right of way?

CosmicSmash

jb2007 wrote: »

I don't think its misleading at all.
Not sure if I was mad enough to pay admission I would feel very welcome tbh.

So your usual way of avoiding paying an admission fee is blocked off and you're complaining about it.

bazermc

Free loaders Ted

Don't Chute!

jb2007 wrote: »

The usual route from Djouce woods through to Powerscourt on MTB is blocked as of the last week maybe ... anyone know whats up with this ?
They have resurfaced the paths in powerscourt and used a digger to bank up the usual crossing point ... Obviously you can still get in but its messier ..

There are a number of ways in to avoid paying. Check Strava segment explore feature to find them! I've been in there numerous times on my mountain bike and never had any hassle. Was even in there very early one morning and wanted to leave by the gate but it was closed. The woman who lives in the house there was walking by and opened the gate for me! Didn't seem to be a problem.

uck51js9zml2yt

[quote="ronoc;99294237"Is there not a right of way?[/quote]
.
You tell me.!!

Its private property. They charge admission in which apart from anything else means your insured on the premises but you feel its OK to trespass.

Don't Chute!

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

.
You tell me.!!

Its private property. They charge admission in which apart from anything else means your insured on the premises but you feel its OK to trespass.

Have you ever walked in Wicklow? If you have it is almost certain you have trespassed on someones land. The only difference being they weren't greedy enough to make you pay for it.

Beasty

black and amber wrote: »

Have you ever walked in Wicklow? If you have it is almost certain you have trespassed on someones land. The only difference being they weren't greedy enough to make you pay for it.

If you want to use something that belongs to me (and that I paid for) it's only reasonable that I can charge you for that privilege

Wishbone Ash

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

....Its private property. They charge admission in which apart from anything else means your insured on the premises but you feel its OK to trespass.

black and amber wrote: »

Have you ever walked in Wicklow? If you have it is almost certain you have trespassed on someones land. The only difference being they weren't greedy enough to make you pay for it.

Many private properties have a right of way. I don't know about Powerscourt but just because something is in private ownership, it doesn't mean the general public can't access it. My workplace is a private property however we can't stop people from accessing the grounds (on foot) as there was a right of way through it long before it was built (circa. 1890).

Don't Chute!

This http://www.swedishepa.se/Enjoying-nature/The-Right-of-Public-Access/ is how it is in Sweden but of course the Irish obsession with owning land and making money wouldn't allow it to happen here. If everyone charged for accessing their land basically the whole of Wicklow would be shut down.

Don't Chute!

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Many private properties have a right of way. I don't know about Powerscourt but just because something is in private ownership, it doesn't mean the general public can't access it. My workplace is a private property however we can't stop people from accessing the grounds (on foot) as there was a right of way through it long before it was built (circa. 1890).

Powerscourt is a strange one in that you can access the whole area including waterfall and never even realise that everyone else in there had to pay in! You really only have to pay if you enter by the main gate the rest is open mountain. The op seems to think that might be changing though.

Johnny Jukebox

jb2007 wrote: »

The usual route from Djouce woods through to Powerscourt on MTB is blocked as of the last week maybe ... anyone know whats up with this ?
They have resurfaced the paths in powerscourt and used a digger to bank up the usual crossing point ... Obviously you can still get in but its messier ..

And technically the usual route from Djouce is not permitted according to Coillte by-law...

Haven't ridden it yet myself but is the bank feature a welcome addition to the descent ?

jb2007

Oh its not a feature ... until it gets plenty traffic it's an awkward lift I'm afraid.

As a cyclist I think it's ridiculous to be asked to pay in so yes I will be finding another way... its a nice stop off point not a destination.

If I was visiting in a car as a tourist with guests it would be different... I would be robbed at the gate like some of the other suckers in this thread.

Johnny Jukebox wrote: »

And technically the usual route from Djouce is not permitted according to Coillte by-law...

Haven't ridden it yet myself but is the bank feature a welcome addition to the descent ?

Skatedude

It's private property, right of way is because they are nice people, not in anyway a right.

uck51js9zml2yt

black and amber wrote: »

Have you ever walked in Wicklow? If you have it is almost certain you have trespassed on someones land. The only difference being they weren't greedy enough to make you pay for it.

The facilities that your wanting to use cost money to provide as does the staff who maintain and manage the waterfall area.

As for powers court, I probably know it better than you think you do.:)

smacl

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Many private properties have a right of way. I don't know about Powerscourt but just because something is in private ownership, it doesn't mean the general public can't access it. My workplace is a private property however we can't stop people from accessing the grounds (on foot) as there was a right of way through it long before it was built (circa. 1890).

There is also a distinction between public and private rights of way, as well as rules relating to uninvited entry onto private lands. From Citizen's information

Right of way
There is a distinction in Irish law between public and private rights of way. A public right of way is a person's right of passage along a road or path, even if the road or path is not in public ownership. A private right of way is the right to enter onto private lands, but only for the purposes of gaining access to or exiting from another piece of land.

The rights of walkers and ramblers are specified in the Occupiers' Liability Act 1995, which includes "recreational user" as a category of users of privately-owned lands. Under the Act, a recreational user is a person present on the premises or land of a private citizen, without charge (other than a reasonable charge for parking facilities) for the purposes of engaging in a recreational activity. Under these circumstances, the owner of the land is obliged only to not intentionally injure or harm the recreational user or act with reckless disregard for the recreational user's welfare. This is an important distinction because it removes previous insurance liability concerns, which still apply to an invited visitor onto private land.

Don't know where off road cyclists sit in all this, as many Coilte entrances for example include signs prohibiting mountain bikes. As for Powerscourt, it seems reasonable to use an established right of way to pass through it, but not to enter and remain as a mechanism to avoid the entrance fee.

smacl

Skatedude wrote: »

It's private property, right of way is because they are nice people, not in anyway a right.

Using an established right of way to pass through private land is a legal right. Facilitating public access to private land is where being nice comes in, as is the case with much of the land around Lough's Dan and Tay, where the occupiers liability act makes it easier to achieve this.

Thargor

I've refused the guy at the gate and cycled down to the waterfall a couple of times without paying, I don't agree with them being allowed to fleece people who want to see the biggest waterfall in the country just because some ancestor paid tuppence for it hundreds of years ago, told him to call the guards if he had a problem.

Don't Chute!

Thargor wrote: »

I've refused the guy at the gate and cycled down to the waterfall a couple of times without paying, I don't agree with them being allowed to fleece people who want to see the biggest waterfall in the country just because some ancestor paid tuppence for it hundreds of years ago, told him to call the guards if he had a problem.

Fleece is right. The last time I paid in it was €5. PER PERSON! Not just for the car. It cost us €20 that day. Never again.

smacl

black and amber wrote: »

This http://www.swedishepa.se/Enjoying-nature/The-Right-of-Public-Access/ is how it is in Sweden but of course the Irish obsession with owning land and making money wouldn't allow it to happen here. If everyone charged for accessing their land basically the whole of Wicklow would be shut down.

Ireland is a long way behind the rest of Europe with respect to recreational land use. We could really learn a lesson from the likes of France in terms of having an extensive network of well marked trails for all kinds of use. Changing Coillte ownership from Agriculture and Finance departments to include Tourism could help here.

average_runner

smacl wrote: »

Ireland is a long way behind the rest of Europe with respect to recreational land use. We could really learn a lesson from the likes of France in terms of having an extensive network of well marked trails for all kinds of use. Changing Coillte ownership from Agriculture and Finance departments to include Tourism could help here.

Another reason they probably charge is to stop people coming in and ruining it, which is a common thing people in this country do when something is free.

Wouldn't see the French do that.

Johnny Jukebox

What really irritates me about the Powerscourt is the sight of tourists getting the 44 to Enniskerry and then walking on some of the most dangerous roads in north Wicklow to the waterfall. There is no footpath on most of the route and its really busy especially in the summer and its only a matter of time before someone gets a smack of a car.

This could of course be completely avoided as there is a beautiful tranquil and highly enjoyable walking and cycling route through the upper and lower estate which comes out at the waterfall - but of course, its private.

ford2600

smacl wrote: »

Ireland is a long way behind the rest of Europe with respect to recreational land use. We could really learn a lesson from the likes of France in terms of having an extensive network of well marked trails for all kinds of use. Changing Coillte ownership from Agriculture and Finance departments to include Tourism could help here.

Hard to know what the answer is tbh, you could change a lot of things with Coilte, National Parks, law on duty of care on "open" land whether private or public but a key problem which you can't get around is a small percentage of such land users are cnuts. The type of people who ruin it for everyone else. For example the type of people who dump on the mountainside, leave dogs off leads with sheep close by, gates open, ignorant parking etc. I regularly ( I mean 5/6 per year) have to hunt guys at night who hunt deer with dogs or who lamp deer(they hope) while firing rifles .243 and above i.e. high powered rifles. I regularly come across deer gutted in land on which there is livestock; gutting is the process of removing the internal organs, lungs and intestines.

In France for example a lot of home heating in rural areas is by firewood, which is obtained from local public and privately owned woods. The trees are typically dropped by owners/professionals and home owners then cut up/split and haul out their wood to season( or in some case season it on site and remove later). I've seen this in Black Forest to. What a lovely family activity
but could you imagine doing it here? From claims to stolen wood a for starters

I own forestry and such a system would really suit with regard to thinning but I'd want to be insane to do it with the way legal system works here.

The way Coilte manage what are effect public lands is a disgrace in terms of access.

Carawaystick

Johnny Jukebox wrote: »

This could of course be completely avoided as there is a beautiful tranquil and highly enjoyable walking and cycling route through the upper and lower estate which comes out at the waterfall - but of course, its private.

Or Wicklow Co Co could build a path or DB or the NTA could run buses to the waterfall/ crone carpark.

nak

black and amber wrote: »

This http://www.swedishepa.se/Enjoying-nature/The-Right-of-Public-Access/ is how it is in Sweden but of course the Irish obsession with owning land and making money wouldn't allow it to happen here. If everyone charged for accessing their land basically the whole of Wicklow would be shut down.

Right to Roam in Scotland has been one of the reasons why mountain biking has been so successful there. Was quite surprised at the difference when I moved here.

sconhome

ford2600 wrote: »

...

In France for example a lot of home heating in rural areas is by firewood, which is obtained from local public and privately owned woods. The trees are typically dropped by owners/professionals and home owners then cut up/split and haul out their wood to season( or in some case season it on site and remove later). I've seen this in Black Forest to. What a lovely family activity
but could you imagine doing it here? From claims to stolen wood a for starters...

I think this is brilliant. We live near a woods and the amount of timber cut and abandoned by Coillte is scandalous. So many locals could collect these and use them as firewood rather than leaving it to waste and yet you could be done for theft.

Crazy stuff.

We're probably a victim of our own making though regarding right to roam as a recent case in Wicklow where a woman cut her knee on a boardwalk and sued Wicklow Co Co shows. In all honesty is there any surprise people don't want to risk it by allowing people roam on their land?

uck51js9zml2yt

They blocked off entrance to the river walk from the house except to ticket holders due the amount of people freeloading along the river and leaving the estate to clean up after them and repair the damage done.

People still leave a mess at the waterfall and damage equipment provided by the estate for its use.
Those who think the WF should be free....where does the money come from to provide and maintain the amenities they provide?

Orion

sconhome wrote: »

We're probably a victim of our own making though regarding right to roam as a recent case in Wicklow where a woman cut her knee on a boardwalk and sued Wicklow Co Co shows. In all honesty is there any surprise people don't want to risk it by allowing people roam on their land?

She's a $£$"%"£. Seasoned hiker slips and sues provider of a boardwalk to make an area of natural beauty accessible to all. Haven't heard any more about that case - I hope it was thrown out.

Orion

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

Those who think the WF should be free....where does the money come from to provide and maintain the amenities they provide?

Seriously - it's a waterfall. It doesn't need any amenities. You can park in Glenmalure and walk up Fraughen Rock Glen to see another fine one that doesn't seem to have the need for a coffee shop or any other ameneties. You can park in Crone Wood car park and walk up a path to see Powerscourt Waterfall too - from above. Beautiful sight from there. Putting in "amenities" is just an excuse to charge people in to see something that nature provides for nothing.

smacl

sconhome wrote: »

We're probably a victim of our own making though regarding right to roam as a recent case in Wicklow where a woman cut her knee on a boardwalk and sued Wicklow Co Co shows. In all honesty is there any surprise people don't want to risk it by allowing people roam on their land?

I think that this is what the occupiers liability act seeks to cover, in that the owner of a piece of land is essentially not liable for accidental injury claims from uninvited guests. Don't think it would cover the Wicklow Co Co case though which is a bit of a farce IMO.

Tenzor07

So to address the topic, anyone entering Powerscourt Waterfall pays so this covers general maintenance/staff and public liability insurance which I'm sure is a huge cost to the landowner, if someone walking falls or drowns, or someone on a bike crashes into a walker then i'm sure the insurance claim would be massive...

uck51js9zml2yt

Orion wrote: »

Seriously - it's a waterfall. It doesn't need any amenities. You can park in Glenmalure and walk up Fraughen Rock Glen to see another fine one that doesn't seem to have the need for a coffee shop or any other ameneties. You can park in Crone Wood car park and walk up a path to see Powerscourt Waterfall too - from above. Beautiful sight from there. Putting in "amenities" is just an excuse to charge people in to see something that nature provides for nothing.

So I take it you won't need to use the toilets or grab a coffee or cycle/walk on the maintained thoroughfares?
Others have said they use the amenities it provides but don't bother paying.

saccades

If that coffee shop isn't self supporting (and more) they are doing it wrong, it's busy even in winter.

Ridiculous to pay per person to see the waterfall, went the once with friends that were visiting, never again.

Won't be buying anything from the shop again if we ever drop by on the bikes.

ThisRegard

smacl wrote: »

Don't think it would cover the Wicklow Co Co case though which is a bit of a farce IMO.

I don't think Wicklow Co Co were a defendant, she was suing the NPWS.

Thargor

Yeah great amenities, one of the nicest natural features in the country and they've dropped a big dirty chipper in the middle of it, I wouldn't call it a café, especially with the stink it spreads through the whole Valley.

muckwarrior

Have called in there occasionally to buy an ice-cream when on a spin around Djouce. If they don't want me spending my money there anymore, then fine, I'll steer clear (and tell everyone else I know to do the same).

Mr. Grieves

Can anyone tell me if established "right of way" access through private property is generally marked on a map somewhere?

I was never under any illusion I would be entering private property going into the waterfall - two of the more popular entrance points require going over a fence.

I don't have a problem with being asked to pay if entering by the main gate - I see it as a a charge for the car park and playground, which is very popular. There are other ways to see the waterfall without paying.

Johnny Jukebox

The MTB route around the top of the waterfall is fairly dodgy, especially in winter. If you fell, your fall would begin from Coillte land and end inside the Powerscourt estate - would who you sue ?

Tenzor07

Johnny Jukebox wrote: »

The MTB route around the top of the waterfall is fairly dodgy, especially in winter. If you fell, your fall would begin from Coillte land and end inside the Powerscourt estate - would who you sue ?

You wouldn't be around to sue anyone....

ford2600

Mr. Grieves wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if established "right of way" access through private property is generally marked on a map somewhere?

I was never under any illusion I would be entering private property going into the waterfall - two of the more popular entrance points require going over a fence.

I don't have a problem with being asked to pay if entering by the main gate - I see it as a a charge for the car park and playground, which is very popular. There are other ways to see the waterfall without paying.

http://www.stonesolicitors.ie/rights-of-way-welcome-changes-but-not-enough/

Partly answers question.

smacl

Mr. Grieves wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if established "right of way" access through private property is generally marked on a map somewhere?

Rights of way are marked up on PRA maps as thick yellow lines, available as an interactive map here. Don't see any in Powerscourt.

Don't Chute!

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

So I take it you won't need to use the toilets or grab a coffee or cycle/walk on the maintained thoroughfares?
Others have said they use the amenities it provides but don't bother paying.

This isn't America. We don't need restaurants in places like that. If these people want everyone to pay then they can try to block off all the access points. If you can get in for free but chose to pay then you deserve it. Devils Glen, Glenmacnass and Tork in Kerry are just 3 other waterfalls I can think of where you don't have to pay. If this money is going to the upkeep of the cafe and playground then take them out. Lovely view out over Lough Tay, lets start charging for that too. Vast swathes of the population don't have a clue how beautiful our country is and if people just want to make money off it, it will stay like that.

uck51js9zml2yt

black and amber wrote: »

This isn't America. We don't need restaurants in places like that. If these people want everyone to pay then they can try to block off all the access points. If you can get in for free but chose to pay then you deserve it. Devils Glen, Glenmacnass and Tork in Kerry are just 3 other waterfalls I can think of where you don't have to pay. If this money is going to the upkeep of the cafe and playground then take them out. Lovely view out over Lough Tay, lets start charging for that too. Vast swathes of the population don't have a clue how beautiful our country is and if people just want to make money off it, it will stay like that.

Powers court is private land. The Slazangers have decided to put in amenities which more than enough people use and are happy to pay for.
If you don't like that then I suggest you write to them and ask why.
Details at bottom of this page http://powerscourt.com/waterfall.

Let's know how you get on.

Tenzor07

black and amber wrote: »

This isn't America. We don't need restaurants in places like that. If these people want everyone to pay then they can try to block off all the access points. If you can get in for free but chose to pay then you deserve it. Devils Glen, Glenmacnass and Tork in Kerry are just 3 other waterfalls I can think of where you don't have to pay. If this money is going to the upkeep of the cafe and playground then take them out. Lovely view out over Lough Tay, lets start charging for that too. Vast swathes of the population don't have a clue how beautiful our country is and if people just want to make money off it, it will stay like that.

I think a lot of people would be glad of a little coffee shack in most of the popular beauty spots around, not only a place to get refreshments in the summer, but also would mean there's someone always around to deter opportunist car thieves, you only have to look at the amount of broken car window glass at the parking areas beside these places...

Don't Chute!

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

Powers court is private land. The Slazangers have decided to put in amenities which more than enough people use and are happy to pay for.
If you don't like that then I suggest you write to them and ask why.
Details at bottom of this page http://powerscourt.com/waterfall.

Let's know how you get on.

As I've said already if they have a problem with me or thousands of other people parking up on the road above and walking down through the woods they can block it off. There's not one single sign anywhere to say you need to pay in other than on the main entrance. I wonder how many people regularly walk in that way and don't even know about paying. Do you get your knickers in a twist about them too?