Time.....is never time at all....v2

AuldManKing

The biggest indicator for me is that you haven't ran 7:10's during the cycle - so you 'could' be inefficient at that pace. 7:20's may be in the ball park.

But see how the taper goes and see how the final longer workouts feel before you decide.

On the other hand - is it better to say "ooops" rather than "what if......."

snailsong

Maybe I can offer some experience here as I've attempted 3:10 in DCM on three occasions. Never actually succeeded, but still....:D.

Firstly, your goal should be informed by conditions on the day. If it's a windy day like last year then that'll cost a few minutes so maybe a more conservative goal is in order. If it's hot and humid like 2014 then it depends how you like those conditions but, again, conservative.
Assuming conditions are good then I'd suggest you try for a negative split 3:10.
Start behind the 3:10 pacers. When you meet the rising ground at Stoneybatter let them on, keep relaxed. On Chesterfield avenue I'd allow an extra 15 seconds per mile to goal pace so the pacers should get a fair lead on you here. 46 minutes at 10 k should be about right. On the exit from the park there's a good downhill where you can regain a few seconds, also heading out of the park the second time is downhill so by now you should have got back to within 30 seconds of goal pace. Continue at goal pace, I'm metric so for me that's about 4:28/km. Hit halfway at 1:35:30 and keep on the steady pace. All going well, when you get to the Walkinstown roundabout at 15 miles you'll feel strong. This is where we pick it up a little, 4:20-4:25/km will suffice. You'll be passing people you saw earlier and feeling good. Keep it up and you'll catch the pace group in the last mile. Finish, glory, 3:09:30. Simples .

This was my plan last year. The headwind in the last few miles fecked it up a bit but I still ran slightly negative splits for 3:10:45 or so, a pb at the time.
Whatever you plan for think negative splits and don't go too quick up Chesterfield, whatever the pacers are doing.

tomwaits48

snailsong wrote: »

Maybe I can offer some experience here as I've attempted 3:10 in DCM on three occasions. Never actually succeeded, but still....:D.

Firstly, your goal should be informed by conditions on the day. If it's a windy day like last year then that'll cost a few minutes so maybe a more conservative goal is in order. If it's hot and humid like 2014 then it depends how you like those conditions but, again, conservative.
Assuming conditions are good then I'd suggest you try for a negative split 3:10.
Start behind the 3:10 pacers. When you meet the rising ground at Stoneybatter let them on, keep relaxed. On Chesterfield avenue I'd allow an extra 15 seconds per mile to goal pace so the pacers should get a fair lead on you here. 46 minutes at 10 k should be about right. On the exit from the park there's a good downhill where you can regain a few seconds, also heading out of the park the second time is downhill so by now you should have got back to within 30 seconds of goal pace. Continue at goal pace, I'm metric so for me that's about 4:28/km. Hit halfway at 1:35:30 and keep on the steady pace. All going well, when you get to the Walkinstown roundabout at 15 miles you'll feel strong. This is where we pick it up a little, 4:20-4:25/km will suffice. You'll be passing people you saw earlier and feeling good. Keep it up and you'll catch the pace group in the last mile. Finish, glory, 3:09:30. Simples .

This was my plan last year. The headwind in the last few miles fecked it up a bit but I still ran slightly negative splits for 3:10:45 or so, a pb at the time.
Whatever you plan for think negative splits and don't go too quick up Chesterfield, whatever the pacers are doing.

that's excellent advice, thanks for taking the time to share it, remind me please, are you running again this year yourself? I could piggy back on your plan in person, ha

Reckon Alan is right though, 7.20 probably is a fair assessment based on actual training results.

PaulieYifter

AuldManKing wrote: »

On the other hand - is it better to say "ooops" rather than "what if......."

This. Never be afraid to go for it - it's not like it's your 1st marathon.

snailsong

Pacing this year, probably 3:40, maybe 3:30.

Whatever plan you decide on I really think negative splits is the way to go. A minute behind at 10k, 30 seconds at half way and pick it up by just 5 seconds per k from 15 miles on. Lots of people will ruin their chances on Chesterfield Avenue, especially if there's a West wind, but won't know it until an hour later. I think I did so in 2014. It's so easy to push a bit too hard when you're fresh and full of Adrenaline.

As it happens I have 2 good friends going for 3:10 also so if that's your plan I'll send you a description .

tomwaits48

Surprisingly, I've been feeling pretty ok since Sunday with minimal recovery. Admittedly I'm in bed now by 10pm each night with a clean diet until the race, which helps. I also had a pretty intensive sports massage on Tuesday and will likely go back for another one next week.

Still undecided about race strategy, so last night I went out with the simple goal of running for an hour at what felt like a sustainable marathon effort, ignoring pace & HR. Result was 9 miles @ 7.27 at a HR about 10 beats below my usual actual marathon racing HR average.

1. 7.34
2 7.24
3 7.36
4 7.24
5 7.12
6 7.07
7 7.20
8 7.44
9. 7.40

A very comfortable run.

Will do 16 miles on Sunday along the DCM route.

tomwaits48

Last long run of the plan had me doing 16 miles @ 7.57, which I did on the second half of the DCM route.

Felt comfortable throughout, making mental notes of some of the characteristics of the roads. From Walkinstown to Milltown it's a nice smooth journey, around 4 miles of potential to claw back any lost time along the drags in the first half.

Clonskeagh, a little trickier, and while the Roebuck Road "hill" holds no fear for me it will be important to get to that point with enough left in the tank for a final assault down Merrion Road onto home.

My current thinking is to line up behind the 3.10 pacers, go out at 7.15-7.20 pace, try and keep them in sight and then claw back time in the second half....

I'm in London next week for work which is a right pain so extra attention needed on the diet.

tomwaits48

quiet week last week with mainly easy runs, another sports massage, and finishing up with a 12 miles MLR @ 7.56. Felt good on this run and I am ready to give it a good go next Sunday.

Splits

1. 7.42
2. 7.45
3. 8.03
4. 8.15
5. 7.49
6. 7.23
7. 7.32
8. 8.01
9. 8.09
10. 8.22
11. 8.14

I do enjoy these 90 min or so runs, gives me time to think & reflect.

Roll on next Sunday!

tang1

All the best Sunday, trust your training, you've put in a great cycle. Run well.

adrian522

All the best on Sunday S. I'm sure you'll have a great race and you know you'll essentially get a free ride from KCR to Terenure! Really looking forward to seeing your result after your training block!

tomwaits48

cheers guys, managed to limit any damage from the London work trip and was home yesterday in bed by 9pm with today off so plenty of time now to rest, hydrate and eat carbs.

Did 4 with 2 @ PMP on Tuesday before I left with MP miles of 7.10 and 7.14 which felt fine. Gonna do 5 easy today and a 20 mins looserer tommorow.

Been going back over my training block on Strava and yes, I do need reminding that I've done a pretty solid training block, very consistent in the long runs & medium long runs, many comfortably at 10% of 7.10 MP pace.

Had a dream overnight that I slept in the morning of the race, ha, taper madness is alive and well.

overpronator

Best of luck chief. Very good training so be confident man.

AuldManKing

take it handy from entering the park up to Myo's - Marathon effort not pace. Loosing a min here is no big deal -you'll be feeling fresh and tempted to go gung ho.
Plenty of time to make it up.

snailsong

Best of luck, S. Have a good one.
Hopefully run in to you somewhere at the weekend.

But not in the race!

yaboya1

Best of luck tomorrow S.
Things seem to be falling into place at just the right time for you so it should go well

tomwaits48

3.15.25

Really happy, started out at 7.15 pace through halfway in 1.36 but wheels came off thereafter. Delighted with my resolve to get a decent PB as it got fairly hairy!! (Running that is, my actual hair had a tremendous performance)

adrian522

Well done, you looked comfortable at 17 miles!

yaboya1

Nice run S, especially since you felt uncomfortable so far out.
Sub 3:10 next time

tomwaits48

So it’s been 3 years since my last proper marathon attempt – a lot of has changed since then for me, new house, new job, professional qualification, a child and I’ve watched with envy as many of my peers have continued to progress to sub three levels. Nonetheless, running for me has primarily been about the headspace – a chance for “me time” and my own form of relaxation. It’s been great for both my physical and mental health.

Life had settled down to a certain extent this year which opened out a window to train over the summer. I have been dipping in and out between sessions at Trinity and the club, but race times had been disappointing. After a good chat with AK after a disappointing 10k in Dunshaughlin, I dusted off the P & D plan and solely focused on that for the initial training period.

I really enjoyed the training – the mid-week MLR was very challenging but I felt this was key to building strength, with clear progression as the weeks went on, so I came into this marathon in optimum shape. MP runs had been in the range of 7.10 – 7.25 and after much deliberation I decided to set out at the higher end of 7.15 and go for it. Bronze goal was a PB, Silver was sub 3.15 and Gold 3.10.

Miles 1-5 were all about trying to settle into a groove but I found it hard to keep a constant pace as particular going into Stoneybatter we approached an incline, I was careful to heed the advice given to me not to push too hard here or up Chesterfield Avenue which I heeded, leaving the 3.10 pacers alone as they passed me out – 7.09, 7.06, 7.34, 7.14, 7.18

Miles 6-10 continued on a similar path but I was a little concerned about my HR – about 5 BPM higher than what this effort usually feels like, I wasn’t feeling in the zone, and felt a little tight all over to be honest, which was strange. Went through 10k in 46 mins. Dark clouds were forming in my mind and I didn’t enjoy the climb through Castleknock until we reached one of the bands who were playing a U2 song which I like that lifted the spirits. As we came back into the Park I needed to pull over for a pitstop which probably cost me a crucial 20 seconds or so. 7.17, 7.20, 6.59, 7.14, 7.04

Miles 11-15, from Inchicore through Balleyfermot, I was starting to suffer. Something was not right with me but I couldn’t put my finger on it. I felt sluggish and lethargic. Trying to stay positive I focused on the crowds and the support, high fiving a few kids and thanking the spectators. Average pace was 7.15 at this stage so bang on target. I got through half way in 1.36 which had me in line for a 3.12 which I would have been delighted with but things took a turn for the worse going up the Crumlin Road. My HR was touching my LT zone, way too high, and the pace was decreasing at the same time. People were passing me out and the temptation to stop was growing. 7.31, 7.15, 7.16, 7.40, 7.20, 7.29

Miles 16-20 see's me running through home turf, by my family at the KCR and the club around Terenure. I knew once we hit Walkinstown that the course became favourable so was hoping to kick on from there but I just didn’t have it me. This was very disappointing and despite the cheers from friends and club mates and my smiles and waves, I was putting a brave face on it – I was really feeling terrible. Going up the Fortfield Road, AK came alongside me….I really wanted to latch on to him and run side by side for a while but I was fading….I knew he could sense it too and fair play to him, he told me straight, don’t drop the head, stay positive. 7.23, 7.31, 7.26, 7.30, 7.25

Miles 21 & 22 – well, these nearly broke me. Milltown and Clonskeagh. I had run these roads many a time in the past 3 months specifically to prepare me for this moment. I switched the watch to focus on average pace – it was now at 7.22 – I needed to keep this below 7.27 to get the PB. To my horror these miles came in at 7.38 and 7.55 – the battle was truly on!

Miles 23 & 24 – This is the point where I felt I could do well in, after Roebuck Hill, as it’s a straight run home more or less. The P & D book says this is the part you should relish, having trained better than most others, and true to form, even though I was feeling like death on legs, I was now starting to overtake people. Each person I overtook, I visualised drawing some energy from them and using it myself and as I forced myself down Nutley lane I was starting to feel a whole lot better. Mile 23 – 7.31, Mile 24, 7.26.

Mile 25 & 26 – Time for some maths – the urge to stop was mighty but the aim now was to protect the PB – I reasoned 2 x 8.30 mile would get me in under 3.17 but if I gave it a good rattle I might sneak in under 3.15 – ok so, take it easy, don’t panic, forget the watch now, and just go as fast as you can….so there was nothing more to do but get the head down and truck on….I started again to focus on the spectators to keep my mind occupied from the pain, was great to see a few familiar faces on Northumberland Road, particular Paul O Meara who gave me a great shout out…..Another friend of mine Sean gave me an almighty roar going over the bridge and now I tried to lap up the amazing crowds from either side of the road….7.43, 7.42

I gave it everything I had in the final 800ms – overtook a few people and was running at 6.44 pace….saw the clock and realised I had a 3.15 in the bag – 3.15.21 @7.24 pace to be exact. My initial thoughts? Utter delirium at getting a PB and having survived such an arduous experience with a positive finale.
In a lovely way to bookend this training cycle, I met AK again at the end who had been expecting the worst after seeing me suffering in Terenure, was great to tell him I got a PB and also to tell the good news to overpronator who I’ve raced with plenty of times over the past 4 years.

Afterthoughts?

I’ve achieved a time I feel like I deserve and give or take 2 minutes, is within the right range for my level of fitness and the work I’ve put in. For that I am very proud. The marathon is a beast like no other and you can never take for granted the time you expect to achieve - I really had to dig it out and this shows in my HR readings which are off the charts.

Not sure why I felt so lethargic so early on – it’s a bit of a mystery. Midweek travel maybe? Taper too long at 3 weeks? Interrupted sleep Friday and Saturday night? Who knows. What I am certain however is that I played the best hand possible with the cards that were dealt to me on the day and for that I can sleep easy, a job well done.

tang1

Serious cajones for digging it out over last 4 miles when many would have thrown in the towel, great racing.

Back in Black

Wow. You really dug deep to get home. Fantastic stuff. Delighted for you.

AuldManKing

Thats superb, really pleased for you.

You are right, I thought you were fried when I met you- seriously well done on toughing it out - that'll stand to you in many a race to come.
Congratulations on the PB.

PaulieYifter

Congrats - you looked in good shape when I gave you a shout - good enough shape to acknowledge the cheering anyway. Well done on not letting the fact you didn't feel in the groove early on put you off - its easy to throw in the towel in a marathon but it goes to show the reward you can get if you just keep trucking along.

I'm sure there's more to come - especially if you keep spending a few lunches with that speedy TT crew!

snailsong

Good man, S. Mentally strong, always key. You should be proud of that pb. And more to come.

PaulieC

Good Stuff TW, a PB is a PB. More importantly though, how did the hair hold up ? Nothing worse than running through the finish with a rumpled barnet.

tomwaits48

PaulieC wrote: »

Good Stuff TW, a PB is a PB. More importantly though, how did the hair hold up ? Nothing worse than running through the finish with a rumpled barnet.

I'll let the strava comments answer that!

https://www.strava.com/activities/760449074

Myles Splitz

Super run. Sounds like you earned that PB the hard way. Great achievement to be able to do it when you were battling mentally so early in. Much respect.

jake1970

Congrats on the PB TW. I have been following your log with interest for a while now mainly because your goals for DCM(3:10) and your training(P&D) were similar to mine. Coincidently I had a similar race to you, I found it tough going from the start and I suffered badly in the last 6 miles but like yourself I got a PB. Well done on digging deep and getting a result that you are happy with.

tomwaits48

Thanks for the feedback and responses folks, much appreciated.

Having reflected on where I want to get too, I think I need to spend a substantial chunk of time on speed work. I also think my lack of core strength is holding me back. Endurance and resolve seem like my strong points.

So.....I think the most efficient way for me improve times is to re introduce personalised strength training into my schedule along side 1/2 speed sessions a week.

To that end I am contemplating hiring a personal trainer for the strength work & am targeting the Raheny 5 in January for a PB and will take it from there.