Interdepartmental HEO competition announced (serving civil servants only)

Aglomerado

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2016/05.pdf

Closes April 19th.

gazzer

Aglomerado wrote: »

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2016/05.pdf

Closes April 19th.

About time this was announced. Been waiting to apply for this for ages. Thanks for the info OP

irish_dave_83

Yea I've heard about this for about 2 years, thank god its finally here. I wonder how many initial positions will be up for grabs in Dublin.

Lux23

Ah darn, why do you have to have two years service? I thought it was only one year.

what happens if your department doesn't do PMDS?

gazzer

Littlefinger wrote: »

what happens if your department doesn't do PMDS?

All government departments have to do PMDS

gerrybbadd

Anyine else having a problem with opening the PDf from Step 1?

Littlefinger

Littlefinger wrote: »

what happens if your department doesn't do PMDS?

Are you opening it in the web viewer perchance? Once its downloaded you will have to right lick on it and open in the downloaded acrobat reader

gazzer

gazzer wrote: »

All government departments have to do PMDS

We definitely don't use it in our area. Maybe it is because we are in the Garda area.

gerrybbadd

Littlefinger wrote: »

Are you opening it in the web viewer perchance? Once its downloaded you will have to right lick on it and open in the downloaded acrobat reader

That was it exactly - cheers!

gazzer

Littlefinger wrote: »

We definitely don't use it in our area. Maybe it is because we are in the Garda area.

That's odd. I take it you are a CO/EO in a station or Garda Headquarters then?

gazzer

gazzer wrote: »

That's odd. I take it you are a CO/EO in a station or Garda Headquarters then?

something like that aye

billyhead

Should a HEO compeition not be for serving EOs. Allowing SO and COs apply only increases the competition:(

RWC15champions

billyhead wrote: »

Should a HEO compeition not be for serving EOs. Allowing SO and COs apply only increases the competition:(

That's the point isn't it. Get the best candidate for the job.... (Says a serving EO)

podge018

anybody know what the Stage 1 online assessment tests entail?

midsummer21

billyhead wrote: »

Should a HEO compeition not be for serving EOs. Allowing SO and COs apply only increases the competition:(

Historically yes but that changed in 2014 following a report from CPSA so open to all tco co so eo or equivalent with 2 years service. See link in part 3 of circular.

Moocifer

billyhead wrote: »

Should a HEO compeition not be for serving EOs. Allowing SO and COs apply only increases the competition:(

Besides there won't be any SO's soon. All in my Department do EO work anyway it's been that way for years

psnKOB79LFC

See this:

"Grades equivalent to the Higher Executive Officer grade (i.e. have the same maximum pay scale or higher) are not eligible to compete in this promotion competition"

This means AOs cant apply.

Hold on a second; so to get better pay you are better off coming in an as an EO and being promoted to HEO than entering as an AO? (even though most AOs are sought after more than HEOs).

How the hell is this fair? Is this just a once off?

podge018

the majority of COs, SOs and EOs weren't able to go for the AO competition, swings and roundabouts.

psnKOB79LFC

podge018 wrote: »

the majority of COs, SOs and EOs weren't able to go for the AO competition, swings and roundabouts.

No it is more 'swings and rollercoasters'. There is no comparison.

AO and HEO are seen to be the same grade. Some would elevate AO higher than HEO but irrespective of that how can an AO be debarred from applying when a lower grade is allowed.

It is a great way to further disenfranchise existing AOs.

podge018

it's not seen as the same grade, same pay level, but different grade. AOs are brought in with a qualification to fill a specific hole in the staffing of an organisation. If we're now saying they're interchangeable, or could lose the AO to a HEO post, then the role of the AO is redundant, so let's combine the grades and open it all up, no more AO posts restricted to degree holders?

Yenwod

billyhead wrote: »

Should a HEO compeition not be for serving EOs. Allowing SO and COs apply only increases the competition:(

To be fair, the format of the application form (ie. Please provide a brief description, including dates, which demonstrates that you have significant relevant experience of managing projects and budget.) is almost excluding COs from applying. What CO gets to manage a budget etc? In fact I think many EOs will be struggling with that question, depending where they work.

I personally think it should be open to all grades but the cynic in me thinks it's only therotically open to all grades...!

RumTumTiger

Yenwod wrote: »

I personally think it should be open to all grades but the cynic in me thinks it's only therotically open to all grades...!

I think it is open to all EO or below equivalents isn't it? I'm not in an admin stream and I qualify, although I note point 3(f) must "have management experience at an appropriate level". I wonder how subjective that is??

In the recent EO competition, one had to pass the arithmetic but only verbal and job simulation scores were used to define order of merit. Does anyone know if this is the case for this HEO competition?

Yenwod

RumTumTiger wrote: »

I think it is open to all EO or below equivalents isn't it? I'm not in an admin stream and I qualify, although I note point 3(f) must "have management experience at an appropriate level". I wonder how subjective that is??

Oh it is open to all grades from EO down, even If you're unestablished. But the questions on the form will be extremely difficult for a CO to complete unless they have other experience outside the civil service. Your point about management experience being a prime example of this. While its open to all grades, still very much leaning towards EOs

Malarkey101

Yenwod wrote: »

Oh it is open to all grades from EO down, even If you're unestablished. But the questions on the form will be extremely difficult for a CO to complete unless they have other experience outside the civil service. Your point about management experience being a prime example of this. While its open to all grades, still very much leaning towards EOs

From what I was reading in the booklet I thought you had to be established i.e. have 2 years service.

Yenwod

Malarkey101 wrote: »

From what I was reading in the booklet I thought you had to be established i.e. have 2 years service.

Yes you need to have 2 years service. So you could be a TCO for two years, therefore unestablished, and eligible

Malarkey101

Ah yea thats what I was thinking just short myself oh well!

gazzer

Are there any serving civil servants here who got an email from HR saying that as well as the interdeparmental HEO there would also be an internal competition? A friend of mine who works in Agriculture got an email like that. No such luck with the department I work for. I need to move to a bigger department.

Moocifer

Yeah there is an internal one for Agriculture as well.

gazzer

Moocifer wrote: »

Yeah there is an internal one for Agriculture as well.

I should have stayed in Agriculture. Much more promotion opportunites. There has only been one HEO competition in the 8 years I am in my current department.

irish_dave_83

Yenwod wrote: »

Yes you need to have 2 years service. So you could be a TCO for two years, therefore unestablished, and eligible

I suppose its possible, but I would doubt that many TCO's would be in that position. Particularly with the recent CO competition, I would imagine that a lot of TCO's were replaced with permanent COs.

Yenwod

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

I suppose its possible, but I would doubt that many TCO's would be in that position. Particularly with the recent CO competition, I would imagine that a lot of TCO's were replaced with permanent COs.

Yeah I can't imagine there are many but I do know once TCO who is over four years at it & a great worker. Disgraceful that someone like that can no longer become established automatically.

RumTumTiger

RumTumTiger wrote: »

In the recent EO competition, one had to pass the arithmetic but only verbal and job simulation scores were used to define order of merit. Does anyone know if this is the case for this HEO competition?

Anyone know if merit scores include arithmetic or one just needs to pass like recent EO competition?

The_Conductor

Yenwod wrote: »

To be fair, the format of the application form (ie. Please provide a brief description, including dates, which demonstrates that you have significant relevant experience of managing projects and budget.) is almost excluding COs from applying. What CO gets to manage a budget etc? In fact I think many EOs will be struggling with that question, depending where they work.

I personally think it should be open to all grades but the cynic in me thinks it's only therotically open to all grades...!

You're not restricted to using civil service examples- last time round there was a running joke about the number of GAA voluntary posts that were used as examples.........

Yenwod

The_Conductor wrote: »

You're not restricted to using civil service examples- last time round there was a running joke about the number of GAA voluntary posts that were used as examples.........

Oh yeah I know but not everyone would have that...and depending on the board they can be pro/against outside examples. I know someone who failed an internal because of that.

I wonder could you say how well you manage your kids in the morning :-P

Slydice

Yenwod wrote: »

Oh yeah I know but not everyone would have that...and depending on the board they can be pro/against outside examples. I know someone who failed an internal because of that.

I wonder could you say how well you manage your kids in the morning :-P

I'd say you could

DN82

Anyone else having trouble opening the form ?

DN82

DN82 wrote: »

Anyone else having trouble opening the form ?

you can't open it with a browser based reader you have to do it with the program

RumTumTiger

In the employment record section there is a space for 'management level'; I haven't come across that on any of these forms before.. Would one just put down ones current grade there?
Also wondering if one doesn't have direct reports or an annual budget to manage, will they even flick past page 2 of the application form!

Aglomerado

RumTumTiger wrote: »

In the employment record section there is a space for 'management level'; I haven't come across that on any of these forms before.. Would one just put down ones current grade there?
Also wondering if one doesn't have direct reports or an annual budget to manage, will they even flick past page 2 of the application form!

I've put down "non-management" and "junior management" for those questions on the form (in relation to various roles held).
In my current role, I don't currently manage staff as I'm in a fairly technical area which has no COs, but I have managed a team of 10 + people in the past (same department)! So I've made sure to work that in.

RumTumTiger

Aglomerado wrote: »

I've put down "non-management" and "junior management" for those questions on the form (in relation to various roles held).
In my current role, I don't currently manage staff as I'm in a fairly technical area which has no COs, but I have managed a team of 10 + people in the past (same department)! So I've made sure to work that in.

Thanks for that!
Yeh I'm in the same boat- a technical role with no direct reports. I've supervised the work of temp staff and interns but they would not have been my direct reports. Can sometimes be difficult to put a positive spin on these things! I've done more of this on past roles but I need to get them past the first page

carnie

I'm a CO and I'm pondering entering this competition purely for competition experience and to get into the mind frame for when an EO competition comes around this year (hopefully). I've already hit a stumbling block on page 2 and I wonder if it'll hinder me. It's the employment history part -1. I can't put down any management level as I don't have anything to put down and 2. I've had no one report to me, ever.

I was involved with a project that, sort of, involved budgets so I think I might be fine with that and I have slight team leader experience from my career break but nothing special. I could embellish on the truth a little.

I'm not expecting anything to come out of this. As I mentioned, I was just going to enter to start preparing myself for an EO comp but the fact that I'm already getting caught out on page two is there any point in going for this.

The_Conductor

Carnie- most of us are just putting down 'Junior Management' and trying to shoehorn examples into the form.

The form is only the first step- to get into the competition- we'll probably have to fill out a whole new form with examples for the competencies- later in the process.

Don't worry unduly- one way or the other- you'll have an opportunity to branch out later in the process (providing you get through the computer testing etc of course).

irish_dave_83

carnie wrote: »

I'm a CO and I'm pondering entering this competition purely for competition experience and to get into the mind frame for when an EO competition comes around this year (hopefully). I've already hit a stumbling block on page 2 and I wonder if it'll hinder me. It's the employment history part -1. I can't put down any management level as I don't have anything to put down and 2. I've had no one report to me, ever.

I was involved with a project that, sort of, involved budgets so I think I might be fine with that and I have slight team leader experience from my career break but nothing special. I could embellish on the truth a little.

I'm not expecting anything to come out of this. As I mentioned, I was just going to enter to start preparing myself for an EO comp but the fact that I'm already getting caught out on page two is there any point in going for this.

I wouldn't worry too much. If you get to the stage where the application becomes relevant i.e. the interview. They will ask you questions based on the examples that you give so your previous employment history wont be marked. The examples for the competencies will be queried during an interview, so fill in what you can and maybe ask your EO or HEO to put involve you in some projects with the interview in mind. Then you have something extra to talk about.

I have done that for CO's in my office(i'm an EO btw). The interview board cant expect you to have performed a HEO role, only that you have the ability to perform it.

carnie

Cheers

TheChevron

The_Conductor wrote: »

You're not restricted to using civil service examples- last time round there was a running joke about the number of GAA voluntary posts that were used as examples.........

When you say that this was a running joke, do you mean that most people who included this were laughed away before they were even considered?

Would you say its best to avoid this type of thing on the form?

The_Conductor

TheChevron wrote: »

When you say that this was a running joke, do you mean that most people who included this were laughed away before they were even considered?

Would you say its best to avoid this type of thing on the form?

Not at all- I meant after the fact- some of the interviewers were amused at the number of outside examples that were brought in (primarily a reflection of the limited opportunities EOs and lower grades have for displaying the competencies they were suggesting were necessary for the post, in a work context).

podge018

I'd advise caution to only use the likes of GAA volunteering as a last resort. Speaking with my PO who has been on umpteen interview boards he said it's not ever looked upon as positively as even the most basic of work place example. Now that could be his own prejudice but he's convinced me to dig deeper in my work experiences.

He said you'll hear people saying if you can give an example of getting up in the morning, getting the kids ready for school, and getting the bus to work on time, where you hit all the key competency framework points and trigger words that the board will have to give you the requisite full marks. Don't believe it he said.

gazzer

Finally completed that mammoth form. Its seems rediculous to have to complete the form at this stage when we have not even done the aptitude test yet. Surely a short application form at this stage would have been better and only if you pass the aptitude test would you have to fill out a more detailled form.

The_Conductor

gazzer wrote: »

Finally completed that mammoth form. Its seems rediculous to have to complete the form at this stage when we have not even done the aptitude test yet. Surely a short application form at this stage would have been better and only if you pass the aptitude test would you have to fill out a more detailled form.

Its one way of narrowing the field a bit- a significant cohort of potential applicants will be put off at the first hurdle........

Bottlescrew

Looking for help because I am not sure if i'm eligible for this.
They are allowing aggregation of service for people on contracts - I will only have 11 months service by 19/4/2016, but I have a previous 9 years service from the 1980's - 90's.
Can I aggregate my total service for this competition?