When to slow play and when not two....?

Dub13

Ok I am looking for your views on this.I have been caught out a number of times on this.When do you slow play with a monster or not...?I have lost with some monster pocket cards such as a pair of Queens and ever a A's I think I get two greedy and try to milk the pot well two much.My win ratio starting with a very strong hand would only be about 60% to 70% which I think is two low.

So am I playing them wrong...maybe I am just unlucky and my luck will turn...?The amount of times I have slow played only for my opponent to hit trips,it cant just be unlucky.

I would be interested to here your thoughts on starting with a monster.


Paul

Imposter

You need to think about what you know of your opponent. You have to think about what your opponent thinks about how you play. Then decide what your opponent will do if you check, call or bet/raise. Then you do what you think will get you most money but still minimise your chances of losing the hand. If your beaten before the flop and your opponent plays it properly then you'll probably lose a lot of money. You also need to be able to fold the hand when you are pretty sure you are beaten (depending on the pot size and any bets to you).

Dub13

Good advice Thanks.

So much to learn. :eek: But I am sure I will have fun on the way.

Hectorjelly

Never slowplaying is quite a good idea, most of the time your hand isnt unbeatable, so you want to charge draws no matter how unlikely they are. Also, if you have a big hand, you want to play a big pot. Most people who hit trips on the flop think they're being clever and the they check call the flop, check call the turn (maybe a small raise here) and raise the river. They may as well put a sign on their head that says I have trips, and end up winning a small pot.

AmarilloFats

AA......When the dust settles and five cards are dealt. all you usually have is one pair....A monster!!!!!!! "Play it fast" just like Doyle says....get your chips in when your favourite...Even when you hit trip Kings or Aces BET>>>Why because people will call with draws and weaker hands...you wanna win a big pot?????Well then bet..You should be an aggressive player so betting big will not stand out like sore thumb..BET BET AND BET SOME MORE...Don't wait wait for opponent to fill flush or straight....

Jam those pots...Good luck

kencleary

Hectorjelly wrote:

Most people who hit trips on the flop think they're being clever and the they check call the flop, check call the turn (maybe a small raise here) and raise the river. They may as well put a sign on their head that says I have trips, and end up winning a small pot.

I find the best to play trips on the flop is an immediate all-in, especially if there's two of a suit down. Seems quite counter-intuitive but the amount of people who instantly call with their top pair or even second pair assuming you're on a draw really makes these hands pay.

Hectorjelly

kencleary wrote:

I find the best to play trips on the flop is an immediate all-in, especially if there's two of a suit down. Seems quite counter-intuitive but the amount of people who instantly call with their top pair or even second pair assuming you're on a draw really makes these hands pay.

Ive never tried that, in STTS I like to bet enough so that somebody can put me all in. They'll often do it with A high, or a low PP.

DeVore

I'd agree with the above and add my 2 cents:

Big Pocket-Pairs should NOT imho be slow played. I have one rule for slowplaying and its this: "I'll slow play when I'm SO far ahead that I can give this goon a free card and pretty much REGARDLESS of the card that pops I am still fairly certain to be ahead."

So, if I flop a house I'll most certainly check or play in a way that disguises the strength of my hand. With a house I'd let you CHOOSE the feckin cards from the deck, it probably wouldnt matter.

If I flop a high flush, where only one or two saw the flop, I'll slow play and watch for the board pairing. With a low flush (say I've played 78s), I most certainly will NOT slow play it. If another spade comes then I'm buggered. Even as it is, an 8-high flush isnt all that strong and depending on how many saw the flop it might well be in danger from some bloke hold As7h who fancies his luck or from some muppet who played K3 "cos it was suited".

Flopped straights are scarier still. If the board has two of a suit you need to be careful of giving someone infinite odds to draw to the flush. If the board pairs you could be in a world of pain. Even your straight could find itself in trouble if its the low end of the straight or the turn/river makes a higher straight possible. Stealth trips can easily turn into a house even if you DO bet big.

AA, is NOT a slow playing hand. Its not even a very good hand to be honest. Its a specialist hand in my book and needs careful attention or it will blow up in your face. Some people limp with big pairs, that can be done but I've only ever seen it done by n00bs and experts. Personally I'll try and corner someone and bash them for their lunch money with AA, letting 6 people see the flop is suicide imho.
With AA the cheekiest thing I'll do it hide behind someone elses raise. So, I'm on the button with AA and someone in mid position raises reasonably big, he might have a decent pair or AK. Either way, I'm happy and I'll flat call. Many people will reraise him which I think is a terrible mistake. Let him see the flop and get another bet from him before reraising him, preferably all in depending on the flop and you're read.

Just about nothing else is a slow playing hand, trips on very rare occasions where the board is very bland and on an aggressive table, maybe.

As HJ says, slowplaying can walk you into trouble. It can be profitable but its also very very sensitive to the number of people in the pot.

DeV.

BigDragon

DeVore wrote:

................or from some muppet who played K3 "cos it was suited".........

I was on the BB and flopped trip 3 and got my poker on the turn.

mewso

I'm often happy to slow play big hands if there is no obvious draws on the flop although I do agree good players will notice this however there will often be players who will pay your re-raise on the turn etc.
Slow playing pocket As etc. is something I like to try during a rebuy period when I can afford the risk with a good possible chip return if all goes well.

Hitman Actual

DeVore wrote:

With AA the cheekiest thing I'll do it hide behind someone elses raise. So, I'm on the button with AA and someone in mid position raises reasonably big, he might have a decent pair or AK.
DeV.

Yeah, I love this play as well, let someone else narrow the field for you!

I think new players tend to slow-play big pairs too much... but everyone does it when they start playing. And regarding QQ, I think (and I stand to be corrected here) there's a 40% chance of a K or A hitting the flop.

DeVore

slow playing QQ is just asking to through away a decent hand imho.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

If you do insist on slow playing, you should have a fairly good idea of what your opponents hand is. Remember that often you will lose bets if the board gets scary for him (ie you have AA on a board of 3 5 8, your opponent has 99 and the turn is a K).

mewso

DeVore wrote:

slow playing QQ is just asking to through away a decent hand imho.

DeV.

Yeah best to go all-in and get rid of other possible pocket pairs like Jacks or something

Juan Pablo

Obv it go's without saying to never slow play anything in PLO

DeVore

QQ should catch anyone with JJ unless they are being held by a master of the game.



DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

With AA the cheekiest thing I'll do it hide behind someone elses raise. So, I'm on the button with AA and someone in mid position raises reasonably big, he might have a decent pair or AK. Either way, I'm happy and I'll flat call. Many people will reraise him which I think is a terrible mistake. Let him see the flop and get another bet from him before reraising him, preferably all in depending on the flop and you're read.

I agree with the rest of what you said but not this, its a mistake not to reraise preflop; you cant make a mistake by raising preflop because you are raising with the best hand. Now from time to time its worth making a small mistake, not reraising preflop, in the hopes that your opponent will make a significent mistake post flop. As in my last post this can work two ways, you might lose out on chips if the board isnt to his liking; and you can lose your whole stack if he hits the flop hard with something he would have folded to a reraise. Theres nothing wrong with this strategy, but calling reraising a mistake is wrong IMO! I definitely wouldnt get in the habit of this, as it means you opponents will know that its unlikely you have AA if they do get a reraise.

It works best if you can get all in on the flop without it being an overbet, and as mentioned if you have position.

Krusty_Clown

In the BL last night (ok not an ideal poker environment), I was in the big blind, with 2d7d (undoubtedly a very strong hand - they are suited after all!)..

My neighbour to my left had pocket Aces. No pre-flop raise.
Flop - Two diamonds on the flop. He bets 150. Everyone else folds. I call.
Turn - Another diamond. I've got the flush. He bets 150, I call (he may have a better flush). I should have raised all-in.
River - Ace of diamonds, giving him trips, and making me think my flush is crap-weak. He bets 150. After thinking for a while, I call, pretty sure I'm losing to a better diamond, but he's been playing very poorly so far (call, call, call).

So when you slow-play high pocket pairs, be prepared to lose to 27s.
(before the comments start pouring in, I know I played this hand terribly!).

DeVore

As in my last post this can work two ways, you might lose out on chips if the board isnt to his liking; and you can lose your whole stack if he hits the flop hard with something he would have folded to a reraise. Theres nothing wrong with this strategy, but calling reraising a mistake is wrong IMO! I definitely wouldnt get in the habit of this, as it means you opponents will know that its unlikely you have AA if they do get a reraise.

When words alone are not enough:

QUE?!

DeV.

Hitman Actual

Hectorjelly wrote:

I agree with the rest of what you said but not this, its a mistake not to reraise preflop; you cant make a mistake by raising preflop because you are raising with the best hand. Now from time to time its worth making a small mistake, not reraising preflop, in the hopes that your opponent will make a significent mistake post flop. As in my last post this can work two ways, you might lose out on chips if the board isnt to his liking; and you can lose your whole stack if he hits the flop hard with something he would have folded to a reraise. Theres nothing wrong with this strategy, but calling reraising a mistake is wrong IMO! I definitely wouldnt get in the habit of this, as it means you opponents will know that its unlikely you have AA if they do get a reraise.

It works best if you can get all in on the flop without it being an overbet, and as mentioned if you have position.

I see where you're coming from, but another way of looking at this is that the re-raise gives the player the chance to make the right move by folding pre-flop. Although, looking at it again, the re-raise does give the player the chance of making other mistakes, like calling the re-raise or moving all-in... so I'm not sure now...

Samba

In online cash games i will limp in with anything up to QQ, why?

In my experience there are alot of muppets who will call a considerable pre-flop bet with hands like A2s etc.

Down comes an A and you have to muck your hand.

So i tend to like to limp in, any K, any A and i saw chow to the flop.

The danger here is that you have given people a free flop, so i would only call small bets and if i don't like the betting or the flop, i muck the ladies without a single thought of regret.


QQ has never been a profitable hand for me, KK(still in danger of A2s+o callers) AA... on the other hand have.

The only time it pays is when you hit the set and you let the two pair hands etc. bet into you.

In a Tourney.....VERY big pre-flop raise.

Situations I would slow play. Flopped nut flush board not paired.

A Strong flopped house.

trips....

I find that trips pay the most.


Slow playing, unless you are sure you are ahead is a bad idea. It must be executed perfectly and remember you let him see the turn and the river for free or very little, be prepaired to let go of your hand. That is the key to slow playing, knowing when you are beaten. Many people try to slow play and will then call a bet on the river out of frustration, even though on a rainbow flop the turn and the river gave a flush. BUT I HAD TRIPS.........

Seen it so many times.

Hectorjelly

lenny_leonard wrote:

I see where you're coming from, but another way of looking at this is that the re-raise gives the player the chance to make the right move by folding pre-flop. Although, looking at it again, the re-raise does give the player the chance of making other mistakes, like calling the re-raise or moving all-in... so I'm not sure now...

If you dont raise preflop and you both see the flop, who has made the mistake? Raising gives him the chance to make a bigger mistake by calling, or by re reraising.

Hitman Actual

Hectorjelly wrote:

If you dont raise preflop and you both see the flop, who has made the mistake? Raising gives him the chance to make a bigger mistake by calling, or by re reraising.

The very first Fitz 250 game I played in I was lucky to get Aces twice in the night and played them very differently:

1. Early in the game, blinds 25/50, all stacks still around the 5K mark. UTG raises to 300, I reraise to 1200 and get reraised all-in by UTG (who holds QQ) and knock him out... perfect. In this case, I just want to get heads up with UTG, and he obviously plays badly by pushing.

2. Down to the last two tables, blinds at 400/800, UTG has approx 12K, I have approx 24K. UTG (good aggressive player) raises to 4K, I'm on his immediate left and just call. I know that his raise (and my call) will knock everyone else out, but I don't want to knock UTG out with a re-raise... I'm fairly sure that if he hits the flop he will move all-in (and maybe will push even if he doesn't hit). As it happens, the flop comes Txx and he moves all-in with JT, which is exactly what I want.

I'd play these hands in these situations the exact same way again.

mewso

DeVore wrote:

QQ should catch anyone with JJ unless they are being held by a master of the game.

Or possibly a complete tight-arse

Hectorjelly

lenny_leonard wrote:

The very first Fitz 250 game I played in I was lucky to get Aces twice in the night and played them very differently:

<etc ect>

I'd play these hands in these situations the exact same way again.

All I was saying was that its not a mistake to reraise.

DeVore

musician wrote:

Or possibly a complete tight-arse

to be fair it wasnt a tough put down but when I saw them and I was gasping for a decent hand, I really fell in love with my hand and then to see all that unfold ahead of me.... harsh!

God bless Corben Dallas though, going all in with KQ right after me, the man without fear!! (Very soon he was the man without chips too. )

If I have position with AA I'll flat call because (imo) I believe that when it comes round to him directly after the flop, for him to check is tantamount to saying "I give up this hand, I dont like that flop". There are few players who wont have another bet at it to represent their pair or an ace or whatever. Most will stick in another bet to test the waters and see where they are. Its that bet that I'll reraise.

I'm aware that if he has QQ and a K high flop comes, I'll lose chips because he might well have made the mistake of pressing again pre-flop. But in my opinion you risk losing MORE chips by not allowing him a full second bet on the flop. I dunno... its probably the way I play and the people I play with in the Fitz. Most of them like to bully me and would try it on again because without a fair monster in the hole, I would drop high cards to a decent bet on a raggy flop or a flop I havent hit. Knowing that I'd be confident enough that they will raise again on the flop and I'll reraise them then and either get paid by QQ, KK etc or take the pot there and then.
Often with an over pair first to act will go all in, I've seen it too often to recall... Playing against Irish players (as opposed to Internet players) has may well have made me play differently because I can be fairly sure of aggression.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

If somebody raises preflop, then they tend to bet on the flop; its not just an Irish thing

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

All I was saying was that its not a mistake to reraise.

sorry, shouldnt have said "mistake". Reraising them is a perfectly valid option and one, I could conceiveably do, especially if I notice that the raiser has "pot committed" himself preflop. He'll go the rest most likely in order to see the flop he has mentally "paid" for. Once he sees it, he might find a mental reason to put the hand down (ie: "**** it, I saw the flop and it had nothing for me" or "I dont like that scare card"). In this case, I'd agree that you should get all his chips in while he's still bullish.

So, my bad, "mistake" is too strong a word but its not how I'll play Aces to a decent raise where the raiser has a lot more in his stack. HJ, from playing online recently, I think I see why there is such a difference between our approaches to the game. I'm expecting the kind of opposition I would get in the Fitz, I think you are used to playing the varied styles of the online world.... could be an explanation!

DeV.

Lafortezza

You can never slowplay preflop, there's just too many occasions when if you let people see the flop for free the BB will hit two pair to beat your big pair.
Limp reraising from UTG is fine but not every time you have AA in first position.
If you've got AA or KK and there's a raise before you preflop then reraise it. Especoally if there's players to act behind you. Some cheeky sod with J10 suited might think of the value and tag along and flop something nasty.

Regarding slowplaying a house on the flop, I've found that sometimes its better to bet it straight out. If the flop is something like 88J, how often does that flop get checked down to the river? Constantly! So you win a small pot on the river.
If you bet the flop and turn then you'll either win a small pot on the flop or you might win a bigger pot on the turn or river.

In the big game last month, I had 22 on the button. Limp.
Flop comes 442, house! I bet it, there was no way I was going to check it becuase anyone holding a 4 could hit their kicker and then my house would be counterfeited.

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

If somebody raises preflop, then they tend to bet on the flop; its not just an Irish thing

ok, im confused again... thats my point, you get a fairly certain second bet rather then hoping he calls your reraise preflop. Personally, I have (and in two games recently) did drop JJ to a reraise but on a <10 high flop I'd certainly bang in another raise to see where I was. So from a "tight arse" like me you will get two bets for sure by calling and only possibly one by reraising, so in that situation alone its not optimal. Which is better though, I guess is a matter of opinion.

DeV.

DeVore

lafortezza wrote:

You can never slowplay preflop, there's just too many occasions when if you let people see the flop for free the BB will hit two pair to beat your big pair.
Limp reraising from UTG is fine but not every time you have AA in first position.
If you've got AA or KK and there's a raise before you preflop then reraise it. Especoally if there's players to act behind you. Some cheeky sod with J10 suited might think of the value and tag along and flop something nasty.

You are on the button, the blinds are 50/100, a guy in mid position who has been folded to raises to 500. You are on the button with AA. You telling me that you will reraise him to at least 1000?? More? If you want to win 650 that seems like a pretty good idea. And if the blinds where big and the raise proportionate then I'd go all in over the top fine, but in the scenario I've outlined I'll probably mull over it a while and then flat call. Particularly against some of the players in the Fitz who think I'm a weak player who hedges his bets. EG: If Joe is the guy, I will definitely flat call him. He'll *definitely* bet out to either scare me off or find out where he is. I'm certain to get two bets out of him. If I reraise even a min reraise I'm very likely to scare him off.
Ok, thats because of my table image but its certainly something that should be considered.

Regarding slowplaying a house on the flop, I've found that sometimes its better to bet it straight out. If the flop is something like 88J, how often does that flop get checked down to the river?

I'm holding KQ (or most high cards), you bet out on that flop I'll probably go away. Almost certainly in fact. Now if the rest of the board comes 88JKQ or 88J9T or a number of other possible combos, then you'll get some action from me. If there are six people in the pot the more likely it is that SOMEONE will (politely) hit a flush or straight etc and donate you all of their chips.
The options as I see it are "bet out on the flop and scare everyone away" or "let them build a hand they will put all their chips in on". There is soooooo little danger of you getting out drawn...
This was the response I gave to the original question: I'll slow play when the risk of gifting them a card that can make their hand better then mine is very low. ie: when I'm so far ahead that even the perfect card for them still leaves them behind but makes it more likely they will pay me off.

In the big game last month, I had 22 on the button. Limp.
Flop comes 442, house! I bet it, there was no way I was going to check it becuase anyone holding a 4 could hit their kicker and then my house would be counterfeited.

In this case you are correct because the danger of you getting out drawn is more sizeable. I'd probably still slow play it for one more card but I accept you're point here.


DeV.

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote:

You are on the button, the blinds are 50/100, a guy in mid position who has been folded to raises to 500. You are on the button with AA. You telling me that you will reraise him to at least 1000?? More? If you want to win 650 that seems like a pretty good idea. And if the blinds where big and the raise proportionate then I'd go all in over the top fine, but in the scenario I've outlined I'll probably mull over it a while and then flat call. Particularly against some of the players in the Fitz who think I'm a weak player who hedges his bets.

Yes on the button I'd reraise to maybe 1200. What if the SB has pocket 77's and the BB has QJs, they might tag along for the 500 for the laugh as well (especially if the stacks are reasonably deep).
As you say if the blinds are big then its an all-in/big reraise no brainer.
But 3-handed to the flop AA is not such a big favourite against hands that have value, like say 88 and J10s. Heads up its a monster.

If you reraise the first raiser, firstly it blocks the SB and BB from entering the pot, secondly you might get called by someone who raised with AQs.
Thirdly you might get reraised all-in by QQ or KK, sweet.
Worst case scenario is that the initial raiser folds, you win the blinds plus 500. Not that bad really.

Its a calculated risk to call with AA preflop, you might win a huge pot, but then again if you get action on the flop when you start betting, you really need to be hoping your opponent has Top Pair Top Kicker. What else are you going to get action from apart from something you're behind?

Basically if I hold AA or KK in a tournament, I always want to be headsup before the flop, unless I know the 3rd person in the hand is a very bad player who'll make mistakes or is an easy read. Flat calling with AA is a bad play (personally), especially if there are people who 'think of the value' to act behind you, or you are in the SB or BB, i.e. out of position after the flop.

DeVore wrote:

I'm holding KQ (or most high cards), you bet out on that flop I'll probably go away. Almost certainly in fact. Now if the rest of the board comes 88JKQ or 88J9T or a number of other possible combos, then you'll get some action from me. If there are six people in the pot the more likely it is that SOMEONE will (politely) hit a flush or straight etc and donate you all of their chips.
The options as I see it are "bet out on the flop and scare everyone away" or "let them build a hand they will put all their chips in on". There is soooooo little danger of you getting out drawn...
DeV.

If you're holding KQ and the board is 88JKQ and some one is betting into you then you're going to drop it. The range of hands that beats you is huge. Any 8, and big pair, A10, 9 10, and flush. On a board like that two pair (even top two pair) is a terrible hand.

A flop like 88J in a multiway pot is the perfect flop to slowplay if you've really really hit it. Thats why with a flop like that there's rarely any action (everyone's slowplaying if they've hit it!) until the river, so many times I've seen hands like this that get checked down.
In some cases whoever bets it, wins it. If you bet small on that flop you could get action from Any J, another 8, 9 10, a 4 flush, an overpair, or whatever. If your J8 full house is so bullet proof I'd prefer to try to make some money on it from the flop and turn then waiting until the river and betting to win a smaller pot.

I'm not saying its always bad to slowplay, it has its moments especially against certain types of opponents, but lately I've seen the (better) value in betting a flopped monster instead of checking the flop and check-raising the turn or river.

Dub13

It looks like my inexperience shows big time in this post/question.... I hope that I dont stick out like this at the table :eek: