Called for Jury service - Non citizen

Xcellor

I'm a UK citizen who has been residing in Ireland for 20+ years. I received a notice of Jury service but it states

"Every citizen aged 18 years or upwards whose name is on the Register of Dáil electors can be called for jury service:"

I am obviously entitled to vote and my name is on the Register of Dail electors but I am not a citizen of Ireland. Am I ineligible to serve in this capacity?

spurious

On this page about eligibility for Jury Service, under disqualified is:
People living in Ireland who are not Irish citizens.

I suppose as a courtesy you should write to them and inform them of your ineligibility.

endacl

A ten second Google produced...

"Every Irish or British citizen in Ireland from the age of 18 (no upper age limit since 1 January 2009) who is on the Register of Dáil Electors is eligible for jury service..."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courtroom/jury_service.html

Xcellor

endacl wrote: »

A ten second Google produced...

"Every Irish or British citizen in Ireland from the age of 18 (no upper age limit since 1 January 2009) who is on the Register of Dáil Electors is eligible for jury service..."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courtroom/jury_service.html

Yeah but this contradicts other info... That's why I'm asking

According to an article on journal.ie

"Currently only citizens of Ireland or the UK, who are registered to vote in Dáil elections, are eligible for service – but those who are not citizens of those countries, or who are public servants, are specifically excluded."

Dodge

I'd believe Citizens Information ahead of an article in the Journal, although in this case they say the same thing

endacl

I'd just give them a shout and ask.

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/1373ACF6960DA94880256E540068A30C

Stheno

Xcellor wrote: »

Yeah but this contradicts other info... That's why I'm asking

According to an article on journal.ie

"Currently only citizens of Ireland or the UK, who are registered to vote in Dáil elections, are eligible for service – but those who are not citizens of those countries, or who are public servants, are specifically excluded."

Eh didn't you say you are a UK citizen? What you've quoted from the journal is stating that you are eligible for jury duty?

Xcellor

Stheno wrote: »

Eh didn't you say you are a UK citizen? What you've quoted from the journal is stating that you are eligible for jury duty?

Citizens info says I can do jury service.

Courts.ie says Irish Citizens

journal.ie says I can do jury service.

Yeah ill give them a buzz.

simdan

The Irish system is all over the place. I'd say it will depend on the person you speak to whether you're eligible or not!

coylemj

I'd consider the courts.ie website a primary source and give it preference over the citizens advice website any day. Among the disqualified categories they quote is: 'People living in Ireland who are not Irish citizens'.

I'd believe almost nothing posted on the citizens advice website, especially when there's a primary source available which contradicts them.

wokingvoter

coylemj wrote: »

I'd consider the courts.ie website a primary source and give it preference over the citizens advice website any day. Among the disqualified categories they quote is: 'People living in Ireland who are not Irish citizens'.

I'd believe almost nothing posted on the citizens advice website, especially when there's a primary source available which contradicts them.

All the information on cotizens website is disseminated from the primary source. Not only that but it's updated very regularly
If you've any examples of misinformation on citizens information.ie I'd be interested in you pointing it out?

Marcusm

The Juries Act 1976 makes "citizens" on the roll of electors eligible for jury service. Unless you are an Irish citizen through birth (eg in Northern Ireland), descent (child of Irish born parent(s)) or naturalisation (which you'd know about), I can't see it applying to you

Pro Hoc Vice

wokingvoter wrote: »

All the information on cotizens website is disseminated from the primary source. Not only that but it's updated very regularly
If you've any examples of misinformation on citizens information.ie I'd be interested in you pointing it out?

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/Library3.nsf/0/7089BBEE7452F7AC802570440054CE9D?OpenDocument

Links to the Act, which says

"6.—Subject to the provisions of this Act, every citizen aged eighteen years or upwards and under the age of seventy years who is entered in a register of Dáil electors in a jury district shall be qualified and liable to serve as a juror for the trial of all or any issues which are for the time being triable with a jury drawn from that jury district, unless he is for the time being ineligible or disqualified for jury service."

Amended

"54.—Section 6 of the Juries Act 1976 is amended by deleting “and under the age of 70 years”."

Xcellor

The law here
http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/Library3.nsf/%28WebFiles%29/FA4DA65A42DA9CD6802570440034EC30/$FILE/Juries%20Act,%201976.pdf

Uses the term citizen but does not state Irish citizen. My name is on the register of Dail electors so maybe that is the definition of a citizen from the point of view of jury service.

The term citizen and resident are sometimes interchanged. The fact that citizensinformation contains information for non-irish shows that.

Xcellor

wokingvoter wrote: »

All the information on cotizens website is disseminated from the primary source. Not only that but it's updated very regularly
If you've any examples of misinformation on citizens information.ie I'd be interested in you pointing it out?

Citizensinfo says:

"Eligibility for jury service

Every Irish or British citizen in Ireland from the age of 18 (no upper age limit since 1 January 2009) who is on the Register of Dáil Electors is eligible for jury service except:"

Courts.ie says:

Ineligible persons.

Disqualification.
..............

» People living in Ireland who are not Irish citizens.


Either courts.ie is wrong or citizensinfo is wrong...

coylemj

wokingvoter wrote: »

All the information on cotizens website is disseminated from the primary source. Not only that but it's updated very regularly
If you've any examples of misinformation on citizens information.ie I'd be interested in you pointing it out?

According to the CI website, you cannot bring any type of knife or scissors onto a flight, this information is totally wrong and has not been updated since November 2014 even though the current (Dublin Airport) rules were published in August 2013.

The CI website says that no knives or scissors can be brought on board, you can see the relevant section here.....

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/air_travel/security_issues_and_baggage.html

Where they list as prohibited items....

• Knives with blades of any length, including letter openers made of metal or any other material that is strong enough to be used as a potential weapon
  
• ....
  
• Scissors
  

At the bottom of that CI webpage it says it was last updated in Nov. 2014

The Dublin Airport website says different, the list of prohibited items (which is dated August 2013) states the following ....

• Knives with blades of more than 6cms
  
• Scissors with blades of more than 6cms as measured from the fulcrum

http://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/airport-security.aspx

Q.E.D.

wokingvoter

coylemj wrote: »

According to the CI website, you cannot bring any type of knife or scissors onto a flight, this information is totally wrong and has not been updated since November 2014 even though the current (Dublin Airport) rules were published in August 2013.

The CI website says that no knives or scissors can be brought on board, you can see the relevant section here.....

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/air_travel/security_issues_and_baggage.html

Where they list as prohibited items....

• Knives with blades of any length, including letter openers made of metal or any other material that is strong enough to be used as a potential weapon
  
• ....
  
• Scissors
  

At the bottom of that CI webpage it says it was last updated in Nov. 2014

The Dublin Airport website says different, the list of prohibited items (which is dated August 2013) states the following ....

• Knives with blades of more than 6cms
  
• Scissors with blades of more than 6cms as measured from the fulcrum

http://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/airport-security.aspx

Q.E.D.

Is that it??? CI doesn't specify blade length restrictions and you've condemned the whole site??
You do realise that welfare.ie link to CI site because it's more thorough then their own? You'll have to do better then that!

Victor

The Citizens Information website is a general guide and does not provide legal interpretation.

Xcellor wrote: »

"Every citizen aged 18 years or upwards whose name is on the Register of Dáil electors can be called for jury service:"

You are still a citizen, albeit of another country. I would think (I am not a lawyer) that if you were prosecuted for non-attendance that the court would interpret "citizen" as "Irish citizen".

However, do clarify with the court that is summonsing you.

Magzie

According to the Law Reform commission's 2013 report on jury service.

"2.05 Under the Electoral Act 1992, as amended, Irish citizens may be registered to vote at every election to Dáil Éireann on the register of Dáil electors. Irish citizens may also be registered to vote at referendums to amend the Constitution, and for European Parliament and local elections. British citizens who are ordinarily resident in the State when the electoral register is prepared may vote at Dáil elections and also at European Parliament and local elections. Other EU citizens who are ordinarily resident in the State when the electoral register is prepared may vote at European Parliament and local elections. NonEU citizens who are ordinarily resident in the State may vote at local elections only. It is notable that while British citizens may vote at elections to Dáil Éireann they are not qualified for jury service because section 6 of the Juries Act 1976 provides that Irish citizenship is also a prerequisite for jury service"

Pro Hoc Vice

Magzie wrote: »

According to the Law Reform commission's 2013 report on jury service.

"2.05 Under the Electoral Act 1992, as amended, Irish citizens may be registered to vote at every election to Dáil Éireann on the register of Dáil electors. Irish citizens may also be registered to vote at referendums to amend the Constitution, and for European Parliament and local elections. British citizens who are ordinarily resident in the State when the electoral register is prepared may vote at Dáil elections and also at European Parliament and local elections. Other EU citizens who are ordinarily resident in the State when the electoral register is prepared may vote at European Parliament and local elections. NonEU citizens who are ordinarily resident in the State may vote at local elections only. It is notable that while British citizens may vote at elections to Dáil Éireann they are not qualified for jury service because section 6 of the Juries Act 1976 provides that Irish citizenship is also a prerequisite for jury service"

From what I can see the 1976 Act was only amended to remove the over 70 prohibition, so the citizenship requirement has not been amended. So at this stage the Courts service and the LRC say you must be a Citizen, but of course the CI and some newspaper must be correct lol.

GM228

OP when you say UK, which part of the UK are you referring to?

For example if you were born in Northern Ireland and your a UK citizen then you are entitled to be an Irish Citizen (subject to certain conditions). If you claim Irish Citizenship you can then still retain your UK citizenship and don't need an Irish passport either.

Also if one of your parents is an Irish Citizen you are automatically an Irish Citizen by decent, or if your grandparents etc were Irish Citizens then you can register to become an Irish Citizen.

snaps

I thought there was always a special agreement in place for UK citizens living in Ireland and Irish citizens living in UK?

Anglo Irish agreement springs to mind, along with the good Friday agreement to.

I know plenty of Irish citizens that joined the met police force and even a few who have joined the armed forces.

As far as I know they are treated like a British citizen in the UK instead of an EU citizen.

Xcellor

I was born in Scotland.

I am able to apply for citizenship via naturalization but I find it a bit cheeky asking me to shell out over 1000 euros when I've worked all my adult life in Ireland and paid taxes.

I'm going to phone the court that issued the summons this morning and see what they say. I'll update the thread because there is lots of conflicting information around it.

Possibly the term citizen is being confused with resident.

bucketybuck

wokingvoter wrote: »

Is that it??? CI doesn't specify blade length restrictions and you've condemned the whole site??

:rolleyes:

You asked for an example, he gave you an example. You only need one example to show that the site is not infallible but if you wanted ten perhaps you should have said so instead of moving the goalposts afterwards.

bpmurray

My wife is from teh UK and recently received a jury summons. She sent a polite note pointing out that she is not a citizen and received a letter telling her she was excused.

GM228

snaps wrote: »

I thought there was always a special agreement in place for UK citizens living in Ireland and Irish citizens living in UK?

Anglo Irish agreement springs to mind, along with the good Friday agreement to.

I know plenty of Irish citizens that joined the met police force and even a few who have joined the armed forces.

As far as I know they are treated like a British citizen in the UK instead of an EU citizen.

No the Anglo Irish Agreement gave certain common rights and entitlements and the Conmon Travel Area but not Common Citizenship, however all Irish citizens before 1949 were also British citizens by virtue of the fact Ireland was still part of the Majesty's Dominions (the British Commonwealth) under British law. The British citizenship for Irish citizens ended in 1949 when the Republic of Ireland was moved from the Commonwealth. However there is a way for people born in the Republic before 1949 to obtain British subject status (as opposed to citizen status) subject to certain conditions.

With regards to citizenship in relation to the Good Friday Agreement it basically confirmed what was already in our Constitution thay anybody born in the Island of Ireland was entitled to Irish Citizenship (i.e including Northern Ireland, but not the UK as a whole), but since amended with certain conditions.

GM228

Xcellor wrote: »

I was born in Scotland.

I am able to apply for citizenship via naturalization but I find it a bit cheeky asking me to shell out over 1000 euros when I've worked all my adult life in Ireland and paid taxes.

Your are not eligible so to serve, you will be excused once you point this out.

Xcellor

GM228 wrote: »

Your are not eligible so to serve, you will be excused once you point this out.

Yeah bit of a balls I would have liked to have had the opportunity to do this!

Xcellor

Contacted Citizensinformation and they have updated their page to reflect the reality!

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courtroom/jury_service.html

For anyone reading this thread. If you are not an Irish citizen you can't be in a jury.

Alun

Thank goodness for that. I'd hate having to do jury service.

Anyway, isn't there a flag on entries in the electoral register that indicates your nationality and what elections you're allowed to vote in? Would they not check this first before sending out the invitations?

L1011

Alun wrote: »

Thank goodness for that. I'd hate having to do jury service.

Anyway, isn't there a flag on entries in the electoral register that indicates your nationality and what elections you're allowed to vote in? Would they not check this first before sending out the invitations?

There is but its rather inaccurate. D (Dail - UK citizens), E (EU citizens), L (Local - residents but not Irish or EU citizens) or no letter flag (Irish citizen) is what is meant to be there. A fair few people who should be D have no flag from my experience.

GM228

Xcellor wrote: »

Contacted Citizensinformation and they have updated their page to reflect the reality!

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courtroom/jury_service.html

For anyone reading this thread. If you are not Irish you can't be in a jury.

They acted quick to change that!

The bit in bold isn't entirely accurate, you can be an Irish Citizen without being Irish.

You need to be an Irish Citizen as opposed to being Irish to sit on a jury.

For example an Irish person who has renounced can't sit on a jury either.

Victor

Xcellor wrote: »

Contacted Citizensinformation and they have updated their page to reflect the reality!

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courtroom/jury_service.html

For anyone reading this thread. If you are not an Irish citizen you can't be in a jury.

They still have

Disqualification
The following persons are disqualified from jury service:

...

People living in Ireland who are not Irish or British citizens.

Xcellor

Alun wrote: »

Thank goodness for that. I'd hate having to do jury service.

Anyway, isn't there a flag on entries in the electoral register that indicates your nationality and what elections you're allowed to vote in? Would they not check this first before sending out the invitations?

Well I got a voting card for the last referendum. I didn't vote because I know I'm not eligible but if I had of gone to the polling booth my vote would have counted. They only ask to see a form of ID which can even be a bank card.

It seems to me something as important as the constitution should be guarded a little better. I wonder how many people who voted in the last referendum were ineligible...

Also If I had of rocked up to serve on this jury I really wonder if I could have served. And if I served and was later found to be ineligible what impact would that have on a sentence?

Xcellor

Victor wrote: »

They still have

lol ffs, they really should just embed source documents rather than try and replicate...

GM228

Xcellor wrote: »

lol ffs, they really should just embed source documents rather than try and replicate...

Ring them back and also tell them about the knives on planes whilst your at it

Alun

Xcellor wrote: »

Well I got a voting card for the last referendum. I didn't vote because I know I'm not eligible but if I had of gone to the polling booth my vote would have counted. They only ask to see a form of ID which can even be a bank card.

That might explain why you got the call then. You should double check your entry on checktheregister.ie.

Enter your information and click the "Full Details" button. There's a field called "Election type" which for me says "Dail".

If not, then you should contact your local County Council and get it changed.

Xcellor

GM228 wrote: »

Ring them back and also tell them about the knives on planes whilst your at it

I'll be sending them an invoice for services rendered at this point!!!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes you are entitled to Irish Citizenship so you must assert the right if born in NI under certain conditions, otherwise you are not an Irish Citizen.

However just like been born in Ireland if you are born in a foreign country to a mother or father who is an Irish Citizen then you are automatically an Irish Citizen under Irish law, so in that case you are not an Irish Citizen only if you renounce.

But rather than renounce can you simply choose just to not assert it? The difference here is rather than having the entitlement, you actually have dual citizenship by law, not by choice.

coylemj

The board of Citizens Information is appointed by the Minister for Social Protection which probably explains why 'Social Welfare' is the very first category on the CI homepage. I'd expect that they get a direct feed and continuous updates from the people in social welfare and I'd be happy to trust anything on the CI website relating to the state pensions, jobseekers allowance, childrens' allowance and other social welfare entitlements but for anything falling outside the realm of social welfare, I'd consider them a secondary source and wouldn't trust anything they post on their website.

The Revenue Commissioners, Dublin Airport, the courts service and lots of other state and semi-state agencies have very comprehensive websites which are updated by the people who have the responsibility to implement changes to EU rules. Govt. policy and Irish legislation. The people in CI are just followers, trailing behind the primary source for most data other than social welfare.

It never ceases to amaze me that people on boards continue to quote from CI as if it's the oracle of all information. It may set out to be that and that's probably part of their remit but apart from social welfare content, it is most certainly no such thing.

Dodge

coylemj wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me that people on boards continue to quote from CI as if it's the oracle of all information. It may set out to be that and that's probably part of their remit but apart from social welfare content, it is most certainly no such thing.

To be fair, I don't think anyone has ever claimed it to be perfect but as a catch-all website it provides an excellent service. I understand this is the legal discussion forum and there may be stricter rules on being 100% correct but the CI website does a great job in *most* areas and is a handy starting point for many more

Marcusm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Is that right? I thought anyone born on the island of Ireland pre constitutional amendments consequent to the Good Friday Agreement were automatically Irish citizens while those born subsequently were entitle to claim Irish citizenship. Does that not by definition mean that Irish law respected them as Irish citizens irrespective of their personal views? As international recognition of citizenship law would usually follow national law, I would expect it to have been respected in the UK also.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Otherwise you would have the Irish State attempting to subject people outside of it's jurisdiction to it's laws against their will.

So what about people born in foreign countries to Irish parents? The law says they are Irish Citizens as opposed to having the entitlement?

coylemj

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm not aware that the Irish state imposes any laws on it's citizens when they are abroad. The US for example requires it's citizens living abroad to submit tax returns, we don't require them to do anything so it makes no odds to someone living outside the jurisdiction if he is ipso facto an Irish citizen. In the matter at hand, you have to be on the register of electors to be called for jury duty - not likely to be a problem for Peter Robinson!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Marcusm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But that's exactly what the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956 did; it was much pilloried by the northern establishment.

NUTLEY BOY

OP please be sure to reply to the summons and make equally sure that you get the formal written withdrawl of the jury summons.

Even if ineligible to serve, Official Ireland would be stupid enough to try and ping you for not answering a jury summons !

Photocopy your completed reply to the summons and get a certificate of posting from your post office (it costs nothing and establishes that you did post the letter).

wokingvoter

coylemj wrote: »

The board of Citizens Information is appointed by the Minister for Social Protection which probably explains why 'Social Welfare' is the very first category on the CI homepage. I'd expect that they get a direct feed and continuous updates from the people in social welfare and I'd be happy to trust anything on the CI website relating to the state pensions, jobseekers allowance, childrens' allowance and other social welfare entitlements but for anything falling outside the realm of social welfare, I'd consider them a secondary source and wouldn't trust anything they post on their website.

The Revenue Commissioners, Dublin Airport, the courts service and lots of other state and semi-state agencies have very comprehensive websites which are updated by the people who have the responsibility to implement changes to EU rules. Govt. policy and Irish legislation. The people in CI are just followers, trailing behind the primary source for most data other than social welfare.

It never ceases to amaze me that people on boards continue to quote from CI as if it's the oracle of all information. It may set out to be that and that's probably part of their remit but apart from social welfare content, it is most certainly no such thing.

Actually SW is the most comprehensive section on the website because the vast majority of queries to CI are regarding SW issues
Once again if you find a mistake on CI website they're very receptive to correction
It's a huge site to keep up to date and all and any updates are very welcome

TheHillOfDoom

Interesting question you posed OP with regards to what would happen to a verdict if you had in fact served and were later found to have been ineligible. I wonder whether something like this has ever happened previously?