Electric Ireland wants to charge us previous tenants bill. Help!

armabelle

We moved in to an apt in Dublin 4 in late January 2016 and the LL instructed us to register with Electric Ireland so that we could be responsible for our own gas and electricity consumption. We did this and registered a week or two after we moved in and gave EI the meter readings which were taken at the time of us moving in. We just received our first invoice with a billing period from Aug 2015 to present with an amount of nearly 300 euros on the bill. When we called EI they told us that if the LL does not pay the bill then the new tenants become liable for that. I could not believe what they were telling me of course so I am now waiting for a supervisor to contact me and see what is going on. Can somebody please explain if this is possible in Ireland and how it could be so. Has anybody else had a similar situation

thank you for reading and posting

runawaybishop

armabelle wrote: »

We moved in to an apt in Dublin 4 in late January 2016 and the LL instructed us to register with Electric Ireland so that we could be responsible for our own gas and electricity consumption. We did this and registered a week or two after we moved in and gave EI the meter readings which were taken at the time of us moving in. We just received our first invoice with a billing period from Aug 2015 to present with an amount of nearly 300 euros on the bill. When we called EI they told us that if the LL does not pay the bill then the new tenants become liable for that. I could not believe what they were telling me of course so I am now waiting for a supervisor to contact me and see what is going on. Can somebody please explain if this is possible in Ireland and how it could be so. Has anybody else had a similar situation

thank you for reading and posting

Thats nonsense, you are not liable in the slightest assuming you can prove when you moved in. Not sure why they would even suggest you are liable for a bill in someone elses name - supervisor should clear it up.

Sun in Capri

You are only responsible for the bill from the time you moved in to the property. You would have given utilities company the meter readings and your new account would bill you for readings following on from those you supplied to utilities company. Why would you have to pay for utilities in a property for a time when you were not there?

joleen100

I had this problem with Artricity when I first moved into a rental property. They tried to charge me the arrears of the previous tenant. I sent them a copy of my lease agreement and it was sorted.

Victor

Note that you are entitled to use any energy provider you want. http://www.bonkers.ie/compare-gas-electricity-prices/dual-fuel/

Bob24

You are definitely not liable. It might take some time if you are facing unhelpful customer service reps, but I have no doubt they will eventually relent and remove the charge.

Have you talked to your landlord? Are they aware of the arrears? They should have held the amount from the previous tenant's deposit (or if there was no tenant during that period, the landlord is liable and should pay).

housetypeb

Neither The landlord or the current tenant is liable for the the past tenants bill.Only the person who's name is on the bill is liable.
Point that out to EI and they should write it off as a bad debt.

beauf

I've seen other suppliers try the same thing.

Refused to accept it.

armabelle

runawaybishop wrote: »

Thats nonsense, you are not liable in the slightest assuming you can prove when you moved in. Not sure why they would even suggest you are liable for a bill in someone elses name - supervisor should clear it up.

I know!! Anyway I wasn't having it so I explained it over the phone to some guy that sounded like a women (or a women that sounded like a guy) that I will not be responsible for that amount and they said that I had to get in touch with the LL to tell him that he must pay for it. I then told her/him that I am not going to do that because why should I tell him about what his outstanding financial obligations are? Like I am supposed to be a debt collector now. They said that the only thing we can do is to remove ourselves from the system in which case there would be nobody paying for the electricity on this address. This means that they would send a letter of notice of cancellation of services. Effectively they are saying that the outstanding amount from August must and should be paid before any new tenant takes over.

armabelle

housetypeb wrote: »

Neither The landlord or the current tenant is liable for the the past tenants bill.Only the person who's name is on the bill is liable.
Point that out to EI and they should write it off as a bad debt.

Yeah I told them this. They wanted me to go after the LL, when I said I wouldn't they said that they would. They asked for his number and called him while I was on hold... can you believe it?

armabelle

Bob24 wrote: »

Have you talked to your landlord? Are they aware of the arrears? They should have held the amount from the previous tenant's deposit (or if there was no tenant during that period, the landlord is liable and should pay).

No not yet but we will let him know. The thing is that we are moving out soon anyway due to other factors and our hunch is that he is not able to pay it. He hasn't even supplied furniture he promised since we moved in so we are living in a bare bones apartment paying 1700 euro a month rent. It is crazy.

Bob24

armabelle wrote: »

No not yet but we will let him know. The thing is that we are moving out soon anyway due to other factors and our hunch is that he is not able to pay it. He hasn't even supplied furniture he promised since we moved in so we are living in a bare bones apartment paying 1700 euro a month rent. It is crazy.

It doesn't seem very promising indeed ... probably a good decision to find another place ;-)

But still worth having a chat with the LL to know what their point of view is on this and asked if there was another tenant before you (if the apparent is virtually unfurnished maybe it was not rented before?).

armabelle

Bob24 wrote: »

It doesn't seem very promising indeed ... probably a good decision to find another place ;-)

But still worth having a chat with the LL to know what their point of view is on this and asked if there was another tenant before you (if the apparent is virtually unfurnished maybe it was not rented before?).

It was rented but they did major renovations for a few months before we moved in.

beauf

This kind of thing needs to be challenged. I don't see how they were able to set up a new account and transfer someone elses bill on to your account. The LL name isn't on the account. So even if you leave this bill will follow you won't it?, if its in your name. Can you take it to the small claims. I would ask them their procedure for setting up new accounts because they may not have followed their own procedure here.

beauf

armabelle wrote: »

It was rented but they did major renovations for a few months before we moved in.

Then it would seem to be the LL bill not the previous tenant. The LL might not have switched it to his name.

armabelle

beauf wrote: »

This kind of thing needs to be challenged. I don't see how they were able to set up a new account and transfer someone elses bill on to your account. The LL name isn't on the account. So even if you leave this bill will follow you won't it?, if its in your name. Can you take it to the small claims. I would ask them their procedure for setting up new accounts because they may not have followed their own procedure here.

Ok so after reading your post, here is what I think happened. Previous tenants moved out in August and the renovations began. LL took over the electricity and put in his name. We moved in in Jan and put it into our name but he simply did not pay the bill from August. Maybe he did so on purpose knowing that EI would make us liable? hmmmmmm, not so sure but who knows. It is possible.

armabelle

Sun in Capri wrote: »

You are only responsible for the bill from the time you moved in to the property. You would have given utilities company the meter readings and your new account would bill you for readings following on from those you supplied to utilities company. Why would you have to pay for utilities in a property for a time when you were not there?

Exactly. We didn't even live in Ireland in 2015. The point is that this is the way EI works apparently. Before a new tenant can take over payments in a property, all debts from the past tenant or account holder must be paid else the new account holder must pay for the overdue amount. At the time of take over, this is supposed to be communicated to the new account holder but wasnt in our case

armabelle

beauf wrote: »

Then it would seem to be the LL bill not the previous tenant. The LL might not have switched it to his name.

Yes sorry you are probably right now that I think about it.

beauf

Ask the LL about it. Perhaps they simply "forgot" about it.

Bob24

armabelle wrote: »

Yes sorry you are probably right now that I think about it.

Yet that's why I was asked whether it was rented before you. It seems strange EI would transfer the debt from a previous account to yours. Most likely they just didn't have any account registered for the address in the pas few months and applied the unmatched debt to whichever account subsequently registered (which is not right, but it least if you can confirm it is the case it is clear who should pay it: your landlord).

runawaybishop

armabelle wrote: »

Ok so after reading your post, here is what I think happened. Previous tenants moved out in August and the renovations began. LL took over the electricity and put in his name. We moved in in Jan and put it into our name but he simply did not pay the bill from August. Maybe he did so on purpose knowing that EI would make us liable? hmmmmmm, not so sure but who knows. It is possible.

Ei cannot make you liable for someone else's bill. Tell them, in no uncertain terms, to **** off or you will complain to the regulator. Flabbergasted it's progressed past the supervisor contacting you tbh.

armabelle

Bob24 wrote: »

Yet that's why I was asked whether it was rented before you. It seems strange EI would transfer the debt from a previous account to yours. Most likely they just didn't have any account registered for the address in the pas few months and applied the unmatched debt to whichever account subsequently registered (which is not right, but it least if you can confirm it is the case it is clear who should pay it: your landlord).

Well that makes sense but if you are right then it means that they continued to supply electricity to "nobody" at this address for a period of 4 months and "nobody" ran up a bill of 300 euro. Wouldn't they have cut the service by the time we moved in?

armabelle

runawaybishop wrote: »

Ei cannot make you liable for someone else's bill. Tell them, in no uncertain terms, to **** off or you will complain to the regulator. Flabbergasted it's progressed past the supervisor contacting you tbh.

yes true, but what pees me off is that they think that they can... it's a sketchy system alright because then LL can make tenants liable for their own personal usage

Bob24

armabelle wrote: »

Well that makes sense but if you are right then it means that they continued to supply electricity to "nobody" at this address for a period of 4 months and "nobody" ran up a bill of 300 euro. Wouldn't they have cut the service by the time we moved in?

I *think* they will leave it active for some time to ensure continuity of service. But I could be wrong. Doesn't mean they can charge it to you though.

beauf

armabelle wrote: »

...LL can make tenants liable for their own personal usage

The LL didn't do this EI did. it doesn't really matter either way this is not your bill.

I've seen ESB transfer a bill to a different account entirely. I don't think thats legal either.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

armabelle

beauf wrote: »

The LL didn't do this EI did. it doesn't really matter either way this is not your bill.

I've seen ESB transfer a bill to a different account entirely. I don't think thats legal either.

Yes you are right.. EI did but the LL could have used EI's policy to get us to owe them money for his usage. He is elderly so probably knows how these things work.

armabelle

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

beauf

It doesn't really matter if this was deliberate or an oversight.

1) It has to go back to the LL to sort out.
2) EI should be reported for this.

Dr_Kolossus

Similar thing happened to me with eircom. Bought a house in 2006. Previous owners had a bill for 1 k due to calls to some hotline in India. Eircom insisted we had to pay despite us having our own eircom bill paid fully for the past 5 years. back then eircom were the only decent broadband providers in our area. After about 8 months we eventually got it sorted because of a friend who works in eircom pulled some strings.

When ntl offered broadband we switched straight away. Eircom continually call, knock on door trying to get us to switch back. I have great pleasure in telling them to f**k right off!

athtrasna

There's a talk to electric Ireland forum on here. Might be worth posting on there OP

http://touch.boards.ie/forum/1349

12Phase

The regulator is http://www.cer.ie/customer-care/complaints

Ursus Horribilis

I had a problem a bit like this when I bought my house. The previous owner had died and left behind an unpaid bill which they wanted paid. I was being sent disconnection threats in the post.
To cut a long story short I sent a registered letter to the provider, threatening to report them to the regulator. It worked.

12Phase

Don't threaten to report them. Report them!

CER should be made aware of these kinds of issues.

It's a bullying tactic to minimise exposure to a bad debt. They don't care who pays it, but they're attempting to frighten *someone* into doing so.

Imagine if you'd just arrived in say Germany, France or the US and the first thing you get is a threatening letter or call demanding payment of an outstanding utility bill?

Many people might just pay up.

How many of these bills end up being "accidentally" collected by Direct Debit clearing out someone's current account?

This kind of thing could leave a family with no food on the table one month.

Also they try to fling these things at landlords too often a month after deposits have been returned as that's when it comes to light.

Walking off on a utility bill is mean and unfair but it's even worse for the utility to attempt to just randomly collect it from someone else.

Bear in mind that most utilities either take DD details or a pretty serious deposit. They don't leave themselves very exposed and should be able to track someone down.

You do not have any contractual obligation or relationship with the utility company other than from the point you moved in.

My advice is ALWAYS inspect the meters yourself when you move in and photograph them for gas, electricity and any other metered service and contact the utility companies yourself to setup services.

Dav

The Electric Ireland reps have asked me to post that you can send them a PM and they'll be happy to try help you out OP.

armabelle

Dav wrote: »

The Electric Ireland reps have asked me to post that you can send them a PM and they'll be happy to try help you out OP.

Thanks but the rep on the phone did "resolve" the issue after I refused to contact the LL and tell him that he has a 300€ bill to pay. I explained that I was not a debt collector and that I only wish to pay for our usage and from the time of our move in. The rep tried to get my LL on the phone while I was put on hold. My wife and I were looking at each other while I was put on hold with a what-the-heck-is-this kind of face because we couldn't believe it was happening. We were shocked. Anyway, the guy came back and said that the only thing he can do is to remove us from the system. This will mean that there is no registered person since August 2015 and he warned that they will now be sending a letter to our home address asking for the entire outstanding amount and will be sending a notice that services will be cut unless payment is made. So I don't know how this sounds to other people but this is the resolution we accepted as it was the only one they were able to propose and meant us not being liable for the amount prior to us moving in. We now have to tell the LL to pay the bill before we can take over the account as EI will not let us do so without adding that debt to our account.

Don't know if I should still PM them. I just am glad this thread is here for other people who may have the same issue

Mrs OBumble

Pm them.

What they've done is outrageous.

My guess is that a CSR gets a bonus if they can get the last tenants bill settled, and so they've got creative with the policies to try to achieve this.

Bob24

armabelle wrote: »

Thanks but the rep on the phone did "resolve" the issue after I refused to contact the LL and tell him that he has a 300€ bill to pay. I explained that I was not a debt collector and that I only wish to pay for our usage and from the time of our move in. The rep tried to get my LL on the phone while I was put on hold. My wife and I were looking at each other while I was put on hold with a what-the-heck-is-this kind of face because we couldn't believe it was happening. We were shocked. Anyway, the guy came back and said that the only thing he can do is to remove us from the system. This will mean that there is no registered person since August 2015 and he warned that they will now be sending a letter to our home address asking for the entire outstanding amount and will be sending a notice that services will be cut unless payment is made. So I don't know how this sounds to other people but this is the resolution we accepted as it was the only one they were able to propose and meant us not being liable for the amount prior to us moving in. We now have to tell the LL to pay the bill before we can take over the account as EI will not let us do so without adding that debt to our account.

Don't know if I should still PM them. I just am glad this thread is here for other people who may have the same issue

I'd be careful with getting yourself unregistered. As much as it is not right for them to charge you for the consumption before you moved in, it also is not right for you to use the service without paying for it and could possible be against the terms of your lease (many specify you need to be registered with utility providers and pay the bills). I know they haven't been very helpful, but if they are now offering further assistance it is in your interest to take it (and raise a formal complait aout their previous behaviour if you wish).

Also, do get in touch with your landlord to understand where he stands about this. If he's saying it is not his problem you still want to be registered with EI and pay for your usage, so that all is clear on your end and no-one (EI or LL) can call you a bad payer.

The_Conductor

If the property is unregistered off the system- there could be a reconnection fee due- even if the electricity is not physically turned off........

It is up to the landlord to sort this issue- and they need to be made fully aware of the issue- it is not your prerogative to tell EI to disconnect the power- and indeed- if you do- you could find yourself with an even bigger bill than that for the o/s electricity bill........

Ring the landlord straight off- and make sure they are fully aware of the situation- it is theirs to resolve- not yours.

12Phase

Lodge a formal complaint with CER asap.

I'd also suggest ringing your local TDs and maybe Joe Duffy while you're at it.

DrumSteve

12Phase wrote: »

Lodge a formal complaint with CER asap.

I'd also suggest ringing your local TDs and maybe Joe Duffy while you're at it.

I'd maybe mention the CER but unless it passes the company in questions complaints proceedures process in full, the CER generally won't intervene.

In my experience the best way to sort this is to send them on a copy of lease that confirms when you moved in, Anything before that point will be liable to the previous tennant or landlord (basically whoever's name is on the a/c).

Did you take a meter reading when you moved in to the property? I'd recommend that to all new tennants in any case. EI can only bill you on the 300/305's the receive from ESB networks (unless you provide a reading) so are effectively you are being billed for the balance of the MPRN not your account.

I would probably lodge a complaint either way.

As an aside, is the 300e bill a tenancy deposit they are looking for by any chance?

Butters1979

This is bizarre. The utilities suppliers enter into a contract with someone who lives at a stated address and supplies to that person through that address.
They do not enter into a contract with the address itself and whoever lived there and whatever they did before you moved has nothing to do with you. If the person who moved on owes them money then that person owes them money, it has nothing to do with what address they were at when they clocked up the bill. If that person who owed them money moved into another house would they wipe the slate clean and supply them at the new house without issue? I doubt it.

Electric Ireland either are not training their staff (should you need training?) to understand this basic concept, or are purposely encouraging misinformation to get bad debts paid for by someone who had nothing to do with it. Either way this is negligence, fraud and extortion (refusing to supply until you pay someone else's bill). Knowingly taking advantage of someone like that is disgusting.

OP, forget coming to a compromise, and forget some boards.ie rep offering to talk to you. That's too little too late. You don't owe them money, tell them to connect you immediately, document everything they say and have said to you and the names at the company of who you were talking to and report them. Lodge a complaint and bring them to answer. Otherwise they'll continue to do this to the next person and the next.

12Phase

We had it with a different energy supplier years ago. Took 3 months of no heat to get it sorted and it was a huge bill.

Seems to be a common misconception that the bill is against the asddress and not the person and an assumption that the new tenant is lying too.

beauf

I think its deliberate policy to get LL and tenants to chase up bad debts.

They get away with it because the regulation is so weak.

Butters1979

12Phase wrote: »

We had it with a different energy supplier years ago. Took 3 months of no heat to get it sorted and it was a huge bill.

Seems to be a common misconception that the bill is against the asddress and not the person and an assumption that the new tenant is lying too.

I am sure that Electric Ireland have enough legal knowledge on their books to understand full well that the person moving in has no obligation to pay. They are either not passing this knowledge down to their employees or purposely trying to extort people to settle their bad debts.

Either way they need to be called up on this.

Dav wrote: »

The Electric Ireland reps have asked me to post that you can send them a PM and they'll be happy to try help you out OP.

I would not give them the chance to sweep this under the rug. This kind of stuff needs to be confronted and exposed. Sounds a bit dramatic I know but how many people have they ripped off doing this?

12Phase

Of course they do. Their aim is to get the bill paid. You'll have to point out it's not your problem.

beauf

12Phase wrote: »

Of course they do. Their aim is to get the bill paid. You'll have to point out it's not your problem.

They did, from the first post.

armabelle wrote: »

W...When we called EI they told us that if the LL does not pay the bill then the new tenants become liable for that....

armabelle

Butters1979 wrote: »

I am sure that Electric Ireland have enough legal knowledge on their books to understand full well that the person moving in has no obligation to pay. They are either not passing this knowledge down to their employees or purposely trying to extort people to settle their bad debts.

Either way they need to be called up on this.



I would not give them the chance to sweep this under the rug. This kind of stuff needs to be confronted and exposed. Sounds a bit dramatic I know but how many people have they ripped off doing this?

What they told me on the phone is that we should not have been allowed to "take over" without the debt being paid. The agent should inform you of this before the take over and make it clear to you that if you want to "take over" then you will be liable for the debt. This is how their system works apparently

12Phase

If you're not aware of "taking over" the debt and you never agreed to do that, then you didn't agree go anything and there's nothing they can argue about.

beauf

They don't have to argue they control the account and supply.

12Phase

If they cut it off they may find they're in breech of contract.

Contracts work both ways and European law now takes a very dim view of powerful utilities and other entities abusing their position.