Census discussion thread

rucksack

I read that people were prosecuted for not completing the 2011 census. Is it possible to find out the sentences they got? And what would happen if someone did not have the 25,000 they can be fined or would not pay it? Would they be jailed?

Would it be possible to challenge the law that obliges people to complete it and has this ever been tried?

Mod:

Please contain general census related discussion in this thread.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

MarkAnthony

On what basis would you challenge it? Censuses are considered a necessity for the common good.

BattleCorp

What would the situation be if everybody in the house is illiterate?

Which person in the house would they fine if the form wasn't filled in?

robman60

BattleCorp wrote: »

What would the situation be if everybody in the house is illiterate?

Which person in the house would they fine if the form wasn't filled in?

The person delivering the Census forms will provide assistance to people if necessary, I believe. Therefore, they won't be punished for their illiteracy.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

rucksack

MarkAnthony wrote: »

On what basis would you challenge it? Censuses are considered a necessity for the common good.

some cite privacy as the reason


"Censuses are considered a necessity for the common good" Only by some people or else five would not have been prosecuted last time

MarkAnthony

rucksack wrote: »

some cite privacy as the reason


"Censuses are considered a necessity for the common good" Only by some people or else five would not have been prosecuted last time

There's no privacy issue, it's anonymous.

Censuses are considered to be so important as to be included in some Constitutions, for example the US Constitution.

I can't see any grounds to challenge the law requiring competition. I'm open to the argument of course.

rucksack

MarkAnthony wrote: »

There's no privacy issue, it's anonymous.

Censuses are considered to be so important as to be included in some Constitutions, for example the US Constitution.

I can't see any grounds to challenge the law requiring competition. I'm open to the argument of course.

the enumerators have access to data so it is not anonymous and many people want the choice as to whether they partake

Victor

rucksack wrote: »

Would it be possible to challenge the law

the courts are satisfied that the Oireachtas can doing anything that is not prohibited by the constitution. Even the permanent detention of people with contagious diseases or mental health issues.

This is of course subject to the common good / necessity and periodic review. There is a patient in Peamount Hospital that has been there for something like 30 years due to a particularly contagious strain of TB.

Forcing people to complete a form once every 5 years won't be an issue for the courts.

The higher scale of punishments would likely be for those that distort the census, e.g. a boarding school, prison or hotel that didn't comply with the census.

MarkAnthony wrote: »

There's no privacy issue, it's anonymous.

Confidential, not anonymous.

Your name is on the form and the enumerator and a limited number of other staff (scanning staff, supervisors) would have access to it. However, after the scanning stage, very few people would be able to access the form or any information on individuals. The staff compiling the census results would only be able to read individual pieces of information (e.g. age of person on page 4 of form 54553478658), but that information won't be tied to other identifying information.

After that, only aggregated information is available.

endacl

rucksack wrote: »

the enumerators have access to data so it is not anonymous and many people want the choice as to whether they partake

Do you think an enumerator would be bothered.....?

People only have a problem with the census based on their own lack of understanding of the purpose of the census and the procedures in the compilation of the data produced.

Of course, in another forum I'd describe them as dribbling contrarian idiots. This is a polite forum though. So I won't.

rucksack

endacl wrote: »

Do you think an enumerator would be bothered.....?

People only have a problem with the census based on their own lack of understanding of the purpose of the census and the procedures in the compilation of the data produced.

Of course, in another forum I'd describe them as dribbling contrarian idiots. This is a polite forum though. So I won't.

you do not know if an enumerator would be bothered or not and describing people with insulting names/lack of understanding because they question the status quo is a cop out.

Since you seem to want to get away from the question consider what is the point. there is not a proper hospital service in the country despite all the 'planning' done by census results

This is a legal discussion and i am only interested in the op questions not in branding people who question.

rucksack

Victor wrote: »

the courts are satisfied that the Oireachtas can doing anything that is not prohibited by the constitution. Even the permanent detention of people with contagious diseases or mental health issues.

This is of course subject to the common good / necessity and periodic review. There is a patient in Peamount Hospital that has been there for something like 30 years due to a particularly contagious strain of TB.

Forcing people to complete a form once every 5 years won't be an issue for the courts.

The higher scale of punishments would likely be for those that distort the census, e.g. a boarding school, prison or hotel that didn't comply with the census.

Confidential, not anonymous.

Your name is on the form and the enumerator and a limited number of other staff (scanning staff, supervisors) would have access to it. However, after the scanning stage, very few people would be able to access the form or any information on individuals. The staff compiling the census results would only be able to read individual pieces of information (e.g. age of person on page 4 of form 54553478658), but that information won't be tied to other identifying information.

After that, only aggregated information is available.

"Forcing people to complete a form once every 5 years won't be an issue for the courts." it seems to be an issue for the people who refuse

rucksack

rucksack wrote: »

This is a legal discussion and i am only interested in the op questions not in branding people who question.

Failure to utilize the data correctly does not obfuscate the benefits inherent in the collection of it.

Let's go back to the OP questions so: on what basis would you object to filling out the census and, assuming you wished to challenge it - on what basis would you want to do so?

I'm not asking you for a legal position - just a factual one.

MarkAnthony

Many people don't want to be forced to do X,Y,Z; for the common good they're forced to do so.

To use a poor example, I don't want to pay my TV licence, I still have to (now I've moved to a house :pac:)

VincePP

BattleCorp wrote: »

What would the situation be if everybody in the house is illiterate?

Which person in the house would they fine if the form wasn't filled in?

You seem to be well able to write posts here. So i assume its just a case of catastrophe syndrome that you have - or a wish to be troublesome for the sake of it.

Del2005

rucksack wrote: »

you do not know if an enumerator would be bothered or not and describing people with insulting names/lack of understanding because they question the status quo is a cop out.

Since you seem to want to get away from the question consider what is the point. there is not a proper hospital service in the country despite all the 'planning' done by census results

This is a legal discussion and i am only interested in the op questions not in branding people who question.

The hospital issue is down to politics and local interest groups. We know what needs to be done but no one has the guts to make long term decisions as they fear being voted out before the benefits come through.

RealJohn

If you tell people they have to do something or that they're not allowed to, there'll always be some people who'll decide they don't want to, just because they don't like being told what to do. They're a bit like children in that respect.

Just look at all the people giving out about not being allowed to buy drink on Good Friday. A good number of them have no particular reason to want to drink on Good Friday but tell them that they can't and suddenly it's a big deal.

rucksack

Deleted User wrote: »

Failure to utilize the data correctly does not obfuscate the benefits inherent in the collection of it.

Let's go back to the OP questions so: on what basis would you object to filling out the census and, assuming you wished to challenge it - on what basis would you want to do so?

I'm not asking you for a legal position - just a factual one.

I asked
"Would it be possible to challenge the law that obliges people to complete it and has this ever been tried? " I never said i had a basis, rather was asking if there could be a case made and on what grounds.

I also asked re the people who were prosecuted "Is it possible to find out the sentences they got? And what would happen if someone did not have the 25,000 they can be fined or would not pay it? Would they be jailed?" Fred Swanson answered a couple of those

TeaBagMania

Form goes in the shredder and I never answer the door unless someone I know is coming over

Kristopherus

rucksack wrote: »

"Forcing people to complete a form once every 5 years won't be an issue for the courts." it seems to be an issue for the people who refuse

Whats the big chip on your your shoulder for? Complete the fr***ing form. It won't kill you to do it. :rolleyes::(:mad:

HeidiHeidi

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Form goes in the shredder and I never answer the door unless someone I know is coming over

Why would you do that?

If you got the form, then clearly you answered the door to the census enumerator once, and when they call around to collect it you'll know it's them who's calling so no problem answering, surely?

I smell a bit of trolling here.

rucksack

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Form goes in the shredder and I never answer the door unless someone I know is coming over

did you get into trouble

rucksack

rucksack wrote: »

I asked
"Would it be possible to challenge the law that obliges people to complete it and has this ever been tried? " I never said i had a basis, rather was asking if there could be a case made and on what grounds.

I also asked re the people who were prosecuted "Is it possible to find out the sentences they got? And what would happen if someone did not have the 25,000 they can be fined or would not pay it? Would they be jailed?" Fred Swanson answered a couple of those

Ignore the second paragraph. I'm not hugely interested in the practicalities. For the most part they've been answered.

The first paragraph is what interests me. Do you think the census laws are ripe for challenging on a constitutional basis? If so on what grounds? Generally these sorts of threads work by you positing a position and then it's discussed. You have only given us half a position. I'm just hoping to expand on it to assist the discussion.

For what it's worth I think they are analogous to taxation. A necessary requirement on the populace to assist in proper governance and the common good.

Mexcanelo

What kind of questions are asked. I haven't done one myself before?

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

The first paragraph is what interests me. Do you think the census laws are ripe for challenging on a constitutional basis?

Probably not, seeing as the Article 16.2.3º requires censuses be carried out.

wokingvoter

I'm very black or white about things like this
If you feel OP that it is a gross invasion of your privacy to be forced to complete or cooperate with the census, then you should have the courage of your convictions and simply and politely refuse to even accept a form at the door. Then you can let the consequences transpire, organically if you like, and if you do end up in front of a judge , well isn't that the perfect place for you to set out the grounds of your complaint?

GM228

Victor wrote: »

Probably not, seeing as the Article 16.2.3º requires censuses be carried out.

It dosn't specifically say a census is required to be carried out. It only mentions a previous census-that the ratio between the number of members to be elected at any time for each constituency and the population of each constituency, as ascertained at the last preceding census, shall as far as practical be the same throughout the country.

As we have already had previous censuses we aren't actually required to have any more under the constitution as the "preceding census" is always there. However if it went to court I'd imagine any judge would rule there is an implied requirement for one as per the constitution.

We are required to carry out a census under an order made under the Statistics Act, and like any act I'm sure it could be challenged by any citizen for whatever reason they may see as a legitimate challenge.

However as a census must also be carried out under EU regulations (not in 2016 mind you) in all EU states I'd imagine anybody who actually managed to successfully challenge Irish Law/the constitution would ultimately have to go to the European Court of Justice to challenge the EU law.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Probably not, seeing as the Article 16.2.3º requires censuses be carried out.

That requires, to a certain extent, that a census be held to literally count the number of people in Ireland. The information gathered by it carries no protection under Article 16

Zaph

rucksack wrote: »

the enumerators have access to data so it is not anonymous and many people want the choice as to whether they partake

What would be the point of carrying out a census if half the country decided that they didn't want to fill out the form? Every developed, and I presume even undeveloped country has a regular census. It's not as if it's something that the government here dreamt up as a way of keeping tabs on people.

TeaBagMania

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Why would you do that?

If you got the form, then clearly you answered the door to the census enumerator once, and when they call around to collect it you'll know it's them who's calling so no problem answering, surely?

I smell a bit of trolling here.

It’s none of their business who lives in my house. Maybe the US is different as they mail the forms to every address in the country. You’re supposed to fill it out and send it back.
Luckily its every ten years here, sounds like it every five years in Ireland

TeaBagMania

rucksack wrote: »

did you get into trouble

Nah, if they can’t get in touch with the resident than the representative is to ask the neighbors about who lives in the house.
I read somewhere the max fine is $500 but few if any are ever issued. I’ll keep you guys apprised of the situation

rucksack

wokingvoter wrote: »

I'm very black or white about things like this
If you feel OP that it is a gross invasion of your privacy to be forced to complete or cooperate with the census, then you should have the courage of your convictions and simply and politely refuse to even accept a form at the door. Then you can let the consequences transpire, organically if you like, and if you do end up in front of a judge , well isn't that the perfect place for you to set out the grounds of your complaint?

you need to read more carefully i never said i had a complaint. This is a legal discussion forum and it is a hypothetical discussion

rucksack

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Nah, if they can’t get in touch with the resident than the representative is to ask the neighbors about who lives in the house.
I read somewhere the max fine is $500 but few if any are ever issued. I’ll keep you guys apprised of the situation

"f they can’t get in touch with the resident than the representative is to ask the neighbors about who lives in the house"

I doubt that as it may be in breach of data protection

BattleCorp

VincePP wrote: »

You seem to be well able to write posts here. So i assume its just a case of catastrophe syndrome that you have - or a wish to be troublesome for the sake of it.

I merely asked the question out of curiosity. I have no catastrophe syndrome or a wish to cause trouble. Frankly, how you jumped to that conclusion from my question is quite a leap.

goz83

TeaBagMania wrote: »

Nah, if they can’t get in touch with the resident than the representative is to ask the neighbors about who lives in the house.
I read somewhere the max fine is $500 but few if any are ever issued. I’ll keep you guys apprised of the situation

Presumably they don't ask about secret bunkers and doomsday supplies you're keeping.

I'm all for privacy and don't like the inconvenience of a census...but every 5 years, a few minutes of my time filling it in is reasonable enough for the common good. Every 10 years would be a doddle. Sure you'd only ever have to complete half a dozen or so. No need to be disruptive for the sake of it, or to have your neighbours answer for you, because you're too stubborn, or lazy.

Wanderer78

Is there a dyslexic friendly census?

BattleCorp

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Is there a dyslexic friendly census?

The enumerator can fill it in for people who are dyslexic.

Agent Smyth

I find it funny that some people object to the census because they feel its an invasion of their privacy but seem to forget that every time they switch on their computer, use their mobile phone, drive their car, make a financial transaction using some form other then cash, that they are contributing their information about their personal lives to others who are using it for other reasons other then a general census

Wanderer78

Agent Smyth wrote:

I find it funny that some people object to the census because they feel its an invasion of their privacy but seem to forget that every time they switch on their computer, use their mobile phone, drive their car, make a financial transaction using some form other then cash, that they are contributing their information about their personal lives to others who are using it for other reasons other then a general census

Don't mention Facebook!

Agent Smyth

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Don't mention Facebook!

iirc Zuckerberg believes privacy is no longer a social norm but believes his personal life should remain private

Blanchguy

rucksack wrote: »

"f they can’t get in touch with the resident than the representative is to ask the neighbors about who lives in the house"

I doubt that as it may be in breach of data protection

True actually, ex enumerator here, it's referred to as "constructing a form"

You are only asking for numbers, genders and approximate ages.

coylemj

rucksack wrote: »

the enumerators have access to data so it is not anonymous and many people want the choice as to whether they partake

I believe there is an option for the household to post the form direct to the Census office rather than hand it to the local enumerator who, let's face it, could be the local busybody. Ask the enumerator for an envelope, I'm sure I've seen that option mentioned in the past.

Next excuse?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

rucksack

Agent Smyth wrote: »

iirc Zuckerberg believes privacy is no longer a social norm but believes his personal life should remain private

watch the documentary terms and conditions may apply when they approach him

Phil.x

What if you fill in a load of lies. Put down 36 people in your house example

Victor

Phil.x wrote: »

What if you fill in a load of lies. Put down 36 people in your house example

You would need to ask for extra forms.

I think they would cop on that you were lying.

Marcusm

rucksack wrote: »

"f they can’t get in touch with the resident than the representative is to ask the neighbors about who lives in the house"

I doubt that as it may be in breach of data protection

The neighbour has no obligation not to disclose the information and the census enumerator does not have any data before speaking with the neighbour. No DP issue could arise.

goz83

Phil.x wrote: »

What if you fill in a load of lies. Put down 36 people in your house example

They might increase your water charges

GM228

rucksack wrote: »

I doubt that as it may be in breach of data protection

Marcusm wrote: »

No DP issue could arise.

Data Protection isn't an issue as any information obtained for statistical purposes is exempt from the Data Protection Acts.

However as per the Statistics Act the data obtained must only be used for statistical compilation and analysis purposes.

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

Data Protection isn't an issue as any information obtained for statistical purposes is exempt from the Data Protection Acts.

However as per the Statistics Act the data obtained must only be used for statistical compilation and analysis purposes.

I could stand on a street corner and tell anyone who walked by the name, age, occupation, car registration number, preferred brand of milk and any other information I liked about whosoever I liked without falling foul of the Data Protection Acts as long as I didn't gain it in my function as a data controller.

I think we are massively overstating what can constitute a data breach. If someone knocks on a neighbors door and asks them for information about the chap next door there is nothing in the Acts that prohibits them saying whatever they want.