Bike nearly impounded for not having insurance cert

Mixed89

So I was stopped by a garda this weekend. I had an expired tax disc, with new one paid and on the way in post. He told me, if its not displayed its not taxed. I told him I object to that and he can check with motor tax office if he wants to. Another 30mins later of me sitting on a curb and him in his car, he came out and asked me if i have my insurance cert on me. I told him i don't have to carry it, I have my licence and tax displayed, that's it. He said if I can't prove it's insured he's calling the tow truck and I can get my bike back in few days. At this point we were there for around an hour already. He started walking around the bike, asking if I can even ride this on a provisional (Ninja 250r, yes i can). Obviously I needed my bike so i said ill log in to my online policy with Liberty and show him the policy. Did that, he spent another 20mins scrolling up and down on my phone, eventually asking if it's paid in installments, said yes, so he goes: how am i suppose to know you paid your last installment (WTF?!). Told him its an active policy and theres a date shown on the site. Overall wasted 2 hours with him, eventually letting me go.

So I've 2 questions, first, if im taxed but the disc hasn't arrived yet, can i be on the road? 2nd, do I have to carry my insurance cert printed with me at all times, or have my phone charged and topped up for internet, in case this happens again?

uck51js9zml2yt

The offence is non display of your tax disc.

Always worth printing off the receipt if it hasn't arrived in time.

Can't answer you on the cert.

Cienciano

Well, that garda was a complete wãnker.

endacl

Cienciano wrote: »

Well, that garda was a complete wãnker.

Perhaps there's more to this....

Mixed89

endacl wrote: »

Perhaps there's more to this....

There might be, but i'm not sharing the rest of the story as I'm actually building up a case after this incident. At the end of the day he has no right to take the bike off the road if it is properly taxed and insured. My main concern is about the insurance, if I have to carry the cert with me at all times

Peetrik

He probably wanted a go on it and was looking for an excuse to take it off you haha

Boskowski

Rather than disagreeing with him you should have showed him the email receipt of you paying the tax and said 'sorry officer'.
I know I'm generalising but fellas (and gals) in uniform typically don't respond well to someone openly disagreeing with them.

mcgovern

I had something similar before but with a car.

Stopped at a check point on my way back from a game.
Guard first claimed that my rear bumper was sitting on the back seat - bumper was where it was supposed to be - item on the back site was an inside panel from the boot I'd removed to check some wiring and hadn't put back on yet.
After he checked this, he then claimed it was my front bumper.
After he confirmed it wasn't, he claimed it was my dashboard.
Then went back to it being my rear bumper...

After giving up on that approach he claimed, after checking the disks in the window, that I had no tax. I took out the disk and showed it to him.
Then it was no NCT. Took it out and showed it to him.
Then it was insurance. Took it out and showed it to him.

Then he asked for the rest of the cert - which I didn't have with me.

He gave me a few days to present it in the local station - who gave me some weird looks when I explained why I was there...

TL/DR: They just use it to harass you if they can't get you for actually doing anything wrong but don't like the look of you.

Mixed89

mcgovern wrote: »

I had something similar before but with a car.

Stopped at a check point on my way back from a game.
Guard first claimed that my rear bumper was sitting on the back seat - bumper was where it was supposed to be - item on the back site was an inside panel from the boot I'd removed to check some wiring and hadn't put back on yet.
After he checked this, he then claimed it was my front bumper.
After he confirmed it wasn't, he claimed it was my dashboard.
Then went back to it being my rear bumper...

After giving up on that approach he claimed, after checking the disks in the window, that I had no tax. I took out the disk and showed it to him.
Then it was no NCT. Took it out and showed it to him.
Then it was insurance. Took it out and showed it to him.

Then he asked for the rest of the cert - which I didn't have with me.

He gave me a few days to present it in the local station - who gave me some weird looks when I explained why I was there...

TL/DR: They just use it to harass you if they can't get you for actually doing anything wrong but don't like the look of you.

Oh wow, next time I'll just be nodding my head and repeating "yes sir". It honestly felt like he was trying to catch me out on a single thing. And I've been stopped at least twice before that, never had an issue with any other garda.

seamus

Did you buy the bike off someone who was a bit sketchy?

Why did he stop you in the first place?

I have had bikes since 1981. Only ever stopped at police checkpoint/gardas alcohol testing. What do you do to get stopped a few times but you are only starting out?

frozenfrozen

could be stopping him because he has the L tabard on

mamax

I printed out 2 copies of my insurance cert and laminated both so they wont fall apart if they get wet and keep one in each jacket.
I also keep a screenshot of cert/tax and and emails relating to payments made for anything to do with the bike on my phone.
Not been stopped yet but when I was a young lad I learned the hard way, when your on a bike your an easy target for those cops on a power trip, when asked you produce all your documentation, respond to all question with either a yes or no, and when he tells you you can leave say Thank You, it's the best way to deal with those wanker cops, don't give them any excuse and next time he won't waste his time when he sees you.

Max Headroom

How long was your tax out of date..?...did it expire on 31st of Feb..?..if so its nearly 3 weeks out..

prunudo

Max Headroom wrote: »

How long was your tax out of date..?...did it expire on 31st of Feb..?..if so its nearly 3 weeks out..

If it expired on the 31st the Garda might have suspected it was a fake disc.

Del2005

Mixed89 wrote: »

So I was stopped by a garda this weekend. I had an expired tax disc, with new one paid and on the way in post. He told me, if its not displayed its not taxed. I told him I object to that and he can check with motor tax office if he wants to. Another 30mins later of me sitting on a curb and him in his car, he came out and asked me if i have my insurance cert on me. I told him i don't have to carry it, I have my licence and tax displayed, that's it. He said if I can't prove it's insured he's calling the tow truck and I can get my bike back in few days. At this point we were there for around an hour already. He started walking around the bike, asking if I can even ride this on a provisional (Ninja 250r, yes i can). Obviously I needed my bike so i said ill log in to my online policy with Liberty and show him the policy. Did that, he spent another 20mins scrolling up and down on my phone, eventually asking if it's paid in installments, said yes, so he goes: how am i suppose to know you paid your last installment (WTF?!). Told him its an active policy and theres a date shown on the site. Overall wasted 2 hours with him, eventually letting me go.

So I've 2 questions, first, if im taxed but the disc hasn't arrived yet, can i be on the road? 2nd, do I have to carry my insurance cert printed with me at all times, or have my phone charged and topped up for internet, in case this happens again?

Since he didn't believe that you where insured when you showed him the online account a piece of paper wouldn't cut it. We really need a system like the UK where the police can call a central number 24 hours a day to verify the policy.

You must have done something to really annoy the Guard for him to spend 2 hours dealing with you. Do you ask why wasn't he out catching real criminals?

dev100

Max Headroom wrote:

How long was your tax out of date..?...did it expire on 31st of Feb..?..if so its nearly 3 weeks out..

You have a month to pay it once it's expired ...it's a no brainer now anyway . Even if it wasn't taxed for a few months you would still end up back taxing it with the rules that came in

mickdw

You failed the all important attitude test.
You did not have valid tax displayed. Whether paid for or not, that is an offence and as such garda was within his right to fine you if he wished.
If you had been nice about it instead of disagreeing with him, things might have gone alot better.

johnmolly92

Boskowski wrote: »

Rather than disagreeing with him you should have showed him the email receipt of you paying the tax and said 'sorry officer'.
I know I'm generalising but fellas (and gals) in uniform typically don't respond well to someone openly disagreeing with them.

Too right, dont give them any extra excuses

Max Headroom

dev100 wrote: »

You have a month to pay it once it's expired ...it's a no brainer now anyway . Even if it wasn't taxed for a few months you would still end up back taxing it with the rules that came in

With tax being a reasonable amount why wouldn't you keep it up to date, there's no advantage in letting it lapse....if you haven't got tax its reasonable to assume that the bike may not be insured too....and maybe he was driving like a knob, we only have his story..

dre_jspeed

I remember when I was learner, I was told be my instructor to carry my insurance cert. In case of the original OP's situation.

seamus

dev100 wrote: »

You have a month to pay it once it's expired

No, you don't.

Cienciano

mickdw wrote: »

You failed the all important attitude test.

While I hate to say it, the "yes guard, no guard, 3 bags full guard" is the best approach. Even when the guard is being a smartarse, the best approach is to not be smart back. Difficult to do, but it'll save you time in the long run.

prunudo

It's a strange situation really, on one hand we give out about getting stuck at a checkpoint and the Gardai grilling us about our bikes being insured, taxed etc. All theyre doing is making sure that the information stacks up.

On the other hand when bikes get robbed we give out that the Gardai don't bother checking if bikes/riders are legit and don't do enough to get our things back.

Can't have it both ways. Only way to stop hassle is have a good attitude, don't be confrontational and carry copies of insurance documents etc.

Ps. and to add. Yes there can be some Gardai who are more picky than others, but these are the ones that by not being a dick will get you along your way.
You can then ride away, enjoy the open road knowing he will still be a dick at the end of day but you had a good spin.

stewygriffin

The poor auld gardai can never seem to do anything right,they way some people go on about them here.

Whenever I do my motortax or insurance online I allways take a pic of the purchase with my phone.
Handy to have while Im waiting the 4 days for the disc or certs to arrive in the post.

MarkR

dev100 wrote: »

You have a month to pay it once it's expired ...it's a no brainer now anyway . Even if it wasn't taxed for a few months you would still end up back taxing it with the rules that came in

Where'd you get that from?

foggy_lad

mcgovern wrote: »

I had something similar before but with a car.

Stopped at a check point on my way back from a game.
Guard first claimed that my rear bumper was sitting on the back seat - bumper was where it was supposed to be - item on the back site was an inside panel from the boot I'd removed to check some wiring and hadn't put back on yet.
After he checked this, he then claimed it was my front bumper.
After he confirmed it wasn't, he claimed it was my dashboard.
Then went back to it being my rear bumper...

After giving up on that approach he claimed, after checking the disks in the window, that I had no tax. I took out the disk and showed it to him.
Then it was no NCT. Took it out and showed it to him.
Then it was insurance. Took it out and showed it to him.

Then he asked for the rest of the cert - which I didn't have with me.

He gave me a few days to present it in the local station - who gave me some weird looks when I explained why I was there...

TL/DR: They just use it to harass you if they can't get you for actually doing anything wrong but don't like the look of you.

Just ask to see the Garda's warrant card!

Skill Magill

Got stopped for the first time in years, Huge guard, flanked by chaps with uziis/ak47s? in summerhill (dublin) on my home, ask whether I have tax or not, said yep, its in my pocket, I'll get it out, just waved me on.

dev100

Max Headroom wrote:

With tax being a reasonable amount why wouldn't you keep it up to date, there's no advantage in letting it lapse....if you haven't got tax its reasonable to assume that the bike may not be insured too....and maybe he was driving like a knob, we only have his story..

Sure these things happen. There's always 2 sides to a story. Your right it's of no advantage anymore as you will have to back tax anyway . This sounds like an ego trip, the vast majority of cops have common sense you will get a small number of head cases who won't be reasoned with, best case is don't argue with a fool you will never win .

seamus wrote:

No, you don't.

My tax expired at the end of feb:

On the tax renewal form section 01 (iv)
Application is made prior to or during March 2016

So as long I've paid my car tax within the month of March the cops don't interfere with ya

I've went thru many a check point having done that and nothing has ever been said and Go over the month they will talk to ya .

Well that's my interpretation of it

MarkR wrote:

Where'd you get that from?

See above

arybvtcw0eolkf

On a loosely related subject someone might point me in the right direction.

I bought a new bike three weeks ago and only received my documents through the post this morning.

I went to tax the bike but its taxed until May, but I don't have a tax disc!.

Simple question, how do I go about getting a replacement and is there a charge for a replacement?.

millingmachine

Beckett Full Leadership wrote: »

I went to tax the bike but its taxed until May, but I don't have a tax disc!.

Simple question, how do I go about getting a replacement and is there a charge for a replacement?.

You'll have to go to the tax office, get the replacement form, go to the cop shop, get it stamped & back to the tax office. it's a few years ago that I had to do the same. Think it was 30 euro for the replacement disc.

BaronVon

A vehicle can be seized under S41 of the Road Traffic Act if the tax is out by more than 3 months, or if it's not insured.

(b) the vehicle is or a member of the Garda Síochána reasonably believes it to be registered in the State and the member is of opinion that the vehicle is being so used in contravention of section 56 (1) of the Principal Act, or

(c) a member of the Garda Síochána is of opinion that any excise duty payable under section 1 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act, 1952 , in respect of the vehicle, being a vehicle which is or which the member reasonably believes to be registered in the State, has not been paid in respect of a continuous period of 3 months or more immediately prior to such use.

No tax displayed is a seperate offence, and it may cause the guard to be 'of (the) opinion' it's not taxed. However, a simple radio check will tell if the vehicle has been taxed.

With regards insurance, you have 10 days to produce your certificate of insurance, so it's hard to know if the bike is insured at the side of the road, but the Guard would need reasonable cause to believe you didn't have insurance. Not having the cert on your person wouldn't normally be enough, on its own.

BaronVon

Beckett Full Leadership wrote: »

On a loosely related subject someone might point me in the right direction.

I bought a new bike three weeks ago and only received my documents through the post this morning.

I went to tax the bike but its taxed until May, but I don't have a tax disc!.

Simple question, how do I go about getting a replacement and is there a charge for a replacement?.

Get this form stamped at your local Garda Station, costs €6 afaik

The fact the bike is taxed will be recorded on the computer, so a simple radio check should get you out of trouble, if you couldn't be arsed!

esforum

Mixed89 wrote: »

At the end of the day he has no right to take the bike off the road if it is properly taxed and insured. My main concern is about the insurance, if I have to carry the cert with me at all times

It wasnt properly taxed, you were not displaying a disc, any disc. For all he knew you never taxed it in your life.

Your manner and comments here, I would have seized.

dev100 wrote: »

You have a month to pay it once it's expired

dev100 wrote: »

My tax expired at the end of feb:

On the tax renewal form section 01 (iv)
Application is made prior to or during March 2016

So as long I've paid my car tax within the month of March the cops don't interfere with ya

I've went thru many a check point having done that and nothing has ever been said and Go over the month they will talk to ya .

Well that's my interpretation of it

the tax renewal form is for the financial amount you have to pay ie back months. Its nothing to do with being legally taxed or if Gardai can seize.

Expired is expired

Del2005

infacteh wrote: »

With regards insurance, you have 10 days to produce your certificate of insurance, so it's hard to know if the bike is insured at the side of the road, but the Guard would need reasonable cause to believe you didn't have insurance. Not having the cert on your person wouldn't normally be enough, on its own.

You have to prove that it's insured if the Garda asks. They don't need any reason to doubt as riding or driving is a privilege not a right, as ruled by EU courts, and since insurance is mandatory it's up to you to prove your legal not them to prove you aren't.

BaronVon

Del2005 wrote: »

You have to prove that it's insured if the Garda asks. They don't need any reason to doubt as riding or driving is a privilege not a right, as ruled by EU courts, and since insurance is mandatory it's up to you to prove your legal not them to prove you aren't.

Yeah, but you're not required to carry your certificate of insurance around, that's why you get 10 days to produce it. Absence of a certificate at the side of the road, on its own, isn't sufficient grounds to believe someone doesn't have insurance. With cars you have the insurance disc in the window, but all that tells you is the vehicle is insured.

No harm carrying it around with you, or a copy of it, but it wouldn't be grounds alone for having your bike seized.

esforum

infacteh wrote: »

Yeah, but you're not required to carry your certificate of insurance around, that's why you get 10 days to produce it. Absence of a certificate at the side of the road, on its own, isn't sufficient grounds to believe someone doesn't have insurance. With cars you have the insurance disc in the window, but all that tells you is the vehicle is insured.

No harm carrying it around with you, or a copy of it, but it wouldn't be grounds alone for having your bike seized.

no proof of insurance and no tax would be perfectly reasonable grounds.

Also, I dont follow your thought process about certs of insurance.

Del2005

infacteh wrote: »

Yeah, but you're not required to carry your certificate of insurance around, that's why you get 10 days to produce it. Absence of a certificate at the side of the road, on its own, isn't sufficient grounds to believe someone doesn't have insurance. With cars you have the insurance disc in the window, but all that tells you is the vehicle is insured.

No harm carrying it around with you, or a copy of it, but it wouldn't be grounds alone for having your bike seized.

Disc on the window of a car proves nothing and carrying a cert is the same, you can cancel the policy or have it cancelled and still have a cert. They give you 10 days to produce if they think you are insured if they don't think your insured then they'll lift it, or more usually they treat you as you treat them.

If the Garda thinks your not insured and it's outside business hours for your company they can lift it, as you have no way to prove that the vehicle is insured. My last few bike policies have been emailed to me, it's hard to change details on a pdf if I wanted to to alter the cert. Which is why we should have a similar system to the UK with a central database that can be contacted at any time to verify your policy.

cerastes

Boskowski wrote: »

Rather than disagreeing with him you should have showed him the email receipt of you paying the tax and said 'sorry officer'.
I know I'm generalising but fellas (and gals) in uniform typically don't respond well to someone openly disagreeing with them.

What email receipt? I dont think you get one, but one would be a good idea, you get the option to print off what comes up on the screen, which I usually copy and paste into word as printing off from that screen never seems to work for me and once the window closes you cant get it back, in my experience.

mickdw wrote: »

You failed the all important attitude test.
You did not have valid tax displayed. Whether paid for or not, that is an offence and as such garda was within his right to fine you if he wished.
If you had been nice about it instead of disagreeing with him, things might have gone alot better.

How can you not dissagree with someone if they are claiming you dont have ins, when you do? while not required to carry a cert,
What do you do? agree and say you dont have ins??
As for the tax, tbh, as long as its not declared off the road then there are very limited ways out, rather than having to go to the uneccessary need of processing the information and further paper and leg work by the gardai, wouldnt it be much easier to have them issue an on the spot fine of something proportionate to the length tax has been out of date? and a requirement to pay the tax too?

esforum wrote: »

no proof of insurance and no tax would be perfectly reasonable grounds.
Also, I dont follow your thought process about certs of insurance.

How is someone expected to prove they have ins on the spot, the vast majority of all riders dont carry their ins certs on them, at all, and arent required to do so, so on what grounds can a bike be taken if there is no means or requirement to actually prove its insured, its not like the chap couldnt identify themselves as they said they had their licence, all thats required is to get them to provide the ints cert as is allowed within 10 days.
Anything else is being intentionally difficult, and I dont believe in pandering to someones ego, doesnt mean you cant be civil, which in itself is something Ive notcied is in short supply from some Gardai at the roadside for some reason, I cant say Ive experienced this same advesarial attitude if I have to go to a station.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sorry OP no answers for you except to say it sounds like you got a tosser, and tbh most of them are complete tossers.

Then when something happens which they can't handle they ask for the public's help, meh.

All that, then the carry on of them with the public during the water protests ~ tbh I've little time for the whores, and certainly wouldn't be looking to help or co operate with one.

Mod note - calling gardai tossers and whores is not acceptable. User banned.

Hotblack Desiato

Crazy that the law still requires a valuable, non-waterproof piece of paper to be displayed on a bike. Also totally unnecessary in this day and age.

I always keep my bikes taxed and carry the discs with me, but haven't displayed one in close on 20 years and at 88 euro a pop I'm not about to start either.

esforum

cerastes wrote: »

How is someone expected to prove they have ins on the spot, the vast majority of all riders dont carry their ins certs on them, at all, and arent required to do so, so on what grounds can a bike be taken if there is no means or requirement to actually prove its insured, its not like the chap couldnt identify themselves as they said they had their licence, all thats required is to get them to provide the ints cert as is allowed within 10 days.
Anything else is being intentionally difficult, and I dont believe in pandering to someones ego, doesnt mean you cant be civil, which in itself is something Ive notcied is in short supply from some Gardai at the roadside for some reason, I cant say Ive experienced this same advesarial attitude if I have to go to a station.

By that rational, how can anyones bikes ever be seized? The OP had no tax and no proof of either tax or insurance. How can a car be seized either?

Intentionally difficult? Its difficult to carry a piece of paper or a tax disk? Cmon now, both are pretty easy and I would suggest that if tax had been produced the insurance aspect would have been dealt with far quicker

esforum

<snip>

9935452

Mixed89 wrote: »

There might be, but i'm not sharing the rest of the story as I'm actually building up a case after this incident. At the end of the day he has no right to take the bike off the road if it is properly taxed and insured. My main concern is about the insurance, if I have to carry the cert with me at all times

From a few of the lads at work who have bikes , they say you are meant to carry a copy of your insurance cert with you but i googling it i cant find anything to back that up. Did you have the insurance disc with you either?
If you didnt have the insurance disc , you were on a bike with no valid tax disc and no proof of insurance.

My gut feeling when i was reading the first post was, you were pulled for another reason, most likely someone reported you for dangerous driving. What people dont seem to realise that an aweful lot of checkpoints are put in place brcause they are waiting for a car/driver that has been reported to them. You will see them waving on a load of cars and then pulling in certain ones which match a description they have.
To be fair you have more or less admitted above there is more too it.

Paulw

9935452 wrote: »

From a few of the lads at work who have bikes , they say you are meant to carry a copy of your insurance cert with you but i googling it i cant find anything to back that up. Did you have the insurance disc with you either?
If you didnt have the insurance disc , you were on a bike with no valid tax disc and no proof of insurance.

You obviously aren't a bike rider. There is no insurance disc for a bike. Only a tax disc, and then the insurance documentation and cert, no disc.

There isn't a legal requirement to carry the insurance cert with you, that I can find, only to be insured.

Cienciano

esforum wrote: »

It wasnt properly taxed, you were not displaying a disc, any disc. For all he knew you never taxed it in your life.

Your manner and comments here, I would have seized.

The bike was properly taxed, failure to display tax is not a reason to seize a bike.

esforum wrote: »

By that rational, how can anyones bikes ever be seized? The OP had no tax and no proof of either tax or insurance. How can a car be seized either?

A quick google will tell you this, tax out by more than 2 months is reason to seize a vehicle.

esforum

no, it wasnt properly taxed. The disc had expired and being thrown out and I am well aware that 2 months for tax is the criteria thanks but that little nugget changed nothing. If you have zero proof of tax with you and thats not a reason for a Garda to act, when would it ever be? Only if you are stupid enough to produce a tax disc more than 2 months out?

9935452

Paulw wrote: »

You obviously aren't a bike rider. There is no insurance disc for a bike. Only a tax disc, and then the insurance documentation and cert, no disc.

There isn't a legal requirement to carry the insurance cert with you, that I can find, only to be insured.

The same requirement is there for a tractor. Tax disc only needed to be displayed but most lads will put up the insurance disc. it easier if you are stopped.
I do believe that all vehicles should be made to display both tax and insurance, one set of rules for both.
I have a quad bike insured and taxed and laminate the discs together so they wont get destroyed by water

Big Nasty

<snip>

Paulw

9935452 wrote: »

I do believe that all vehicles should be made to display both tax and insurance, one set of rules for both.

I think it would make a lot more sense to do as they do in the UK - do away with tax and insurance discs, and enable the police (Gardai) to immediately check if a vehicle is taxed/insured, with some online system for them. Enable ANPR to be linked to tax/insurance databases to verify the status.

mamax

Seriously lads is it that hard to print off insurance cert ?
You could even keep it under the seat, legal requirement or not it would save a whole lot of fcukin about when stopped.