1400 now average house rental price per month in Dublin

handlemaster

http://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/rents-in-capital-soar-to-levels-higher-than-at-height-of-the-boom-34540022.html


It will only go higher

sunsetter

Nowhere near London though!

handlemaster

Boom baby boom... is back

Wabbit Ears

So, basically,the laws of supply and demand working perfectly normally.

Captain Chaos

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

So, basically,the laws of supply and demand working perfectly normally.

That are only being pushed up by the new mortgage lending rules.

Which now make renting more expensive than buying by a big margin in monthly repayments.

If these new rules were not in place rents would not be climbing as fast.

Wabbit Ears

That's one of a fair number of reasons demand is increasing and supply isn't anywhere near keeping up with demand.

The odd thing is that landlords are being given every reason to reduce the supply of properties and no incentives to increase it.

Really is a bit of a case of having rather savagely bitten the hand that feeds the industry and will continue to knaw at it as long as landlords are pegged as the bad guys in everything.

JP 1800

It does seem to boil down to supply and demand but these levels are becoming wholly unsustainable, The demand side comes from net migration to Dublin from younger people from rural areas and mainly from abroad looking for work in Dublin.
The Wife and I are currently looking for a larger place before the arrival of the baby and the asking prices and quality of a lot of the places are truly shocking. The rental expenditure for a lot of people are shooting way past the circa 30% one would spend in a normal stable market on accommodation.
A lot of landlords are pulling out of the market as they see that either their asset price has matured and a potential shift in the market could wipe that out or that the fudging of the rental system by the previous government has made being a small landlord unfavourable.

Eugene Norman

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That are only being pushed up by the new mortgage lending rules.

Which now make renting more expensive than buying by a big margin in monthly repayments.

If these new rules were not in place rents would not be climbing as fast.

Yeah they would. The same number of houses are available.

Eugene Norman

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

That's one of a fair number of reasons demand is increasing and supply isn't anywhere near keeping up with demand.

The odd thing is that landlords are being given every reason to reduce the supply of properties and no incentives to increase it.

Really is a bit of a case of having rather savagely bitten the hand that feeds the industry and will continue to knaw at it as long as landlords are pegged as the bad guys in everything.

We need massive new house building programs. The last government oversaw a net reduction in housing stock.

There's no free market in the Irish property market btw.

Eugene Norman

Increases since 2010 = 36%.

People in the rental sector are poorer therefore than they were.

seamus

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That are only being pushed up by the new mortgage lending rules.

Which now make renting more expensive than buying by a big margin in monthly repayments.

If these new rules were not in place rents would not be climbing as fast.

Without the new lending rules, rents would be getting worse as the purchasing market would start heating up. All of those Celtic Tiger investment rentals which were in negative equity would get thrown onto the market and their renters turfed out.

Don't forget there are tens of thousands of people in their 20s and 30s living in the parental home just itching for the chance to buy their own house. It's not a simple case of "renters become buyers", there's a huge cohort that aren't renting at the moment and are looking to buy.

The problem is supply. House supply can't be turned on like a tap. In a market like ours where supply was basically stopped and funding wasn't available there's always going to be a 2 year delay between housing need being identified, and supply being ramped back up again.

EB_2013

I would have thought that with the high rental prices that can be achieved at the moment it might encourage more landlords in to the market even with all the taxes etc that go along with being a landlord.

Wabbit Ears

EB_2013 wrote: »

I would have thought that with the high rental prices that can be achieved at the moment it might encourage more landlords in to the market even with all the taxes etc that go along with being a landlord.

Anyone with an ounce of sense could see that these prices are unsustainable so to enter the business because of current market conditions would be very foolish.

seamus

EB_2013 wrote: »

I would have thought that with the high rental prices that can be achieved at the moment it might encourage more landlords in to the market even with all the taxes etc that go along with being a landlord.

BTL lending isn't there, our rates are still relatively high and the conditions onerous for one-off landlords.

Rental investment isn't a short-term thing anyway, it's a 20+ year investment, so high rents in a market aren't indicative of long-term yields.

The smart money will look at trends, and the Irish market having inflated so quickly means it's still unstable, so having been so badly burned previously, professional rental investors will continue to keep it at arms length until they see more signs of stability.

Freeing up space in the docklands and allowing 20+ storey blocks to be built would be a sure way of getting investors in as they could take an entire block in one go, in a location relatively guaranteed to remain popular in the long term.

Hollister11

Good for people who have property so. Time for them to cash in, as it was hard to rent a place out 4/5 years ago.

stevedublin

EB_2013 wrote: »

I would have thought that with the high rental prices that can be achieved at the moment it might encourage more landlords in to the market even with all the taxes etc that go along with being a landlord.

The lending restrictions also make it harder for BTL investors who need to borrow to buy.

SarahMollie

stevedublin wrote: »

The lending restrictions also make it harder for BTL investors who need to borrow to buy.

I think you need 30% for a BTL mortgage.

factor in all the taxes on rental income, the lack of protections for landlords when you've a nightmare tenant and need to evict, and then you can see why so many landlords are exiting the market.

I bought my place from a BTL LL who was selling up.

Mink

I think this applies to all the Dublin commuter towns & even further as well.

We first rented our 4 bed semi (huge garden, nice estate) in Enfield in 2013 for 750. The rent went up to 800 a year later but hasn't been raised since.

An absolutely identical house around the corner just went up for rent for 1350 per month... in Enfield.

I am expecting a letter any day now hiking the rent up a few hundred euros.

gar32

What happened to all the ghost estates? Can they not be finished now and put buses on for the people to get to work? I would love to come back from Germany but the rents just make it seem impossible.

SarahMollie

gar32 wrote: »

What happened to all the ghost estates? Can they not be finished now and put buses on for the people to get to work? I would love to come back from Germany but the rents just make it seem impossible.

The better ones have been finished off. Some are in locations that people just flat out don't want to live in.

Finishing off a huge estate in the middle of nowhere in Leitrim isnt going to solve the housing crisis.

Stheno

gar32 wrote: »

What happened to all the ghost estates? Can they not be finished now and put buses on for the people to get to work? I would love to come back from Germany but the rents just make it seem impossible.

All the ones in the broader area I live in in Dublin have been finished off and the houses up for sale.

MarkAnthony

There are huge vested interests in seeing this trend continue. Upto 50c in every euro paid in rent ends up in the governments coffers. Anyone who thinks there isn't a huge insentive for politicians to screw renters as hard as possible isn't looking very hard.

gar32

MarkAnthony wrote: »

There are huge vested interests in seeing this trend continue. Upto 50c in every euro paid in rent ends up in the governments coffers. Anyone who thinks there isn't a huge insentive for politicians to screw renters as hard as possible isn't looking very hard.

With deductions etc the tax would be closer to 35% or low depending on the landlords income.

Walter H Price

Rents are crazy in Dublin for the lack of quality!! I am luck atm paying 1400 for a 3 bed as the landlord is decent - other 3 beds in the area going for 1800/1900 and the aren't laps of luxury!

zdragon

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Upto 50c in every euro paid in rent ends up in the governments coffers. .

nope , the likes of Goldman Sachs and other Equity/Pension investment funds
who actually are buying property like crazy, will barely pay any tax.

MarkAnthony

gar32 wrote: »

With deductions etc the tax would be closer to 35% or low depending on the landlords income.

Hence up to, but as rents increase the deductions fall off so as rents increase the money going into the exchequer gets even higher.

The buggest culprit in grabbing renters by the short and curlies and shaking them until you get nothing but lint knocked on all your doors a few a weeks a go? Or did they once they realised there was a high proportion of renters, who AFAIK are less likely to vote.

SarahMollie

gar32 wrote: »

With deductions etc the tax would be closer to 35% or low depending on the landlords income.

So they're getting 65% (at best) of the rental income and paying 100% of the mortgage.

Some just arent coming out with much profit if any at all.

Add to that, you might get a bad tenant who trashes the place or refuses to pay and it takes months to get them out, meanwhile the LL still has to pay the mortgage.

Thats a lot of risk for not much reward as far as I can see. The govt have taken away many of the incentives that used to make it worthwhile.

MarkAnthony

zdragon wrote: »

nope , the likes of Goldman Sachs and other Equity/Pension investment funds
who actually are buying property like crazy, will barely pay any tax.

Buying it and selling it on.

Ireland is maninly one man accidental landlords and paddy property investors who's idea of reseach is asking in this forum wether buying a 1 bed apartment in Tallaght is a good idea with out considering any other investment.

MarkAnthony

TBH this is just phase one. We'll get the rents up to an eye watering rate, then relax the the CB lending rules. Watch a one bed apartment go back North of 300K and then all us accidental landlords can get back out from under. Happy days. The only difference is this time there won't be trackers.

SarahMollie

Mr.S wrote: »

Why are there so many more renters then say, 2 years ago?

We tend to change places every year or so, usually getting a place was super easy but now you go to viewings with 121317923802 other people - where there these renters before?

Population is growing. CSO suggests we need to cater for 25,000 new households nationally per year, and thats been the case for the past few years.

We've not even been putting a dent into the amount of construction that needs to happen.

Thats why both the rental and buyers markets are under pressure.

MarkAnthony

Mr.S wrote: »

Why are there so many more renters then say, 2 years ago?

We tend to change places every year or so, usually getting a place was super easy but now you go to viewings with 121317923802 other people - where there these renters before?

Net immigration to Dublin & LL's getting out of the market are just two reasons.

Hollister11

If the government set a rental income rate of say 20% and that's it, that would go a long way to keep landlords in the market.

But taxing them at 50%+ is disgusting.

SarahMollie

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Buying it and selling it on.

Ireland is maninly one man accidental landlords and paddy property investors who's idea of reseach is asking in this forum wether buying a 1 bed apartment in Tallaght is a good idea with out considering any other investment.

LOL - pretty sure I've seen that exact thread about 5 times this year already.

"so... i don't know anything about property and have done precisely ZERO research, but please all comment to validate my assumption that if I buy X apartment, it will basically print money for me."

MarkAnthony

Hollister11 wrote: »

If the government set a rental income rate of say 20% and that's it, that would go a long way to keep landlords in the market.

But taxing them at 50%+ is disgusting.

Income tax is income tax, that's fair enough. Like any business there should be 100% relief on the mortgage but that's not a huge issue tbh. If the government was serious about doing anything they could do it tomorrow: Give tenants tax reflief on rental payments, problem solved, over night.

Someone has to pay to keep the country's lights on though, you won't be able to afford your own though :pac:

Hollister11

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Income tax is income tax, that's fair enough. Like any business there should be 100% relief on the mortgage but that's not a huge issue tbh. If the government was serious about doing anything they could do it tomorrow: Give tenants tax reflief on rental payments, problem solved, over night.

Someone has to pay to keep the country's lights on though, you won't be able to afford your own though :pac:

Why give tenants relief ? Give the landlords relief. It may be income tax, but if the government want to keep the rental sector going, they really should incentives them to stay.

SarahMollie

Hollister11 wrote: »

Why give tenants relief ? Give the landlords relief. It may be income tax, but if the government want to keep the rental sector going, they really should incentives them to stay.

Both sides actually used to get relief.

In agreement with Hollister, renters are not going to go away, but Landlords can just sell up, effectively making the rental sector shrink, which is a bigger immediate concern, so I'd agree that any relief should probably be targeted in that direction.

Again, we probably need a targeted mixture of measure to get things moving. If the only thing we do is make it more attractive for landlords, then that puts pressure on people trying to buy a house as their own primary residence also, as they'll be competing against Landlords again.

Without increased supply, a stimulus to any group can have negative knock on effects.

Eugene Norman

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Income tax is income tax, that's fair enough. Like any business there should be 100% relief on the mortgage but that's not a huge issue tbh. If the government was serious about doing anything they could do it tomorrow: Give tenants tax reflief on rental payments, problem solved, over night.

Someone has to pay to keep the country's lights on though, you won't be able to afford your own though :pac:

Rental relief on payments will just increase the top line rental price.


To solve this issue long term - build. To solve it now, say you are going to build 100,000 houses in the next few years.

Eugene Norman

Hollister11 wrote: »

Why give tenants relief ? Give the landlords relief. It may be income tax, but if the government want to keep the rental sector going, they really should incentives them to stay.

There isnt really any inidcation that the landlords are fleeing. Thats not the reason. In fact there are still a lot of cash investors, many would be landlords.

Its the lack of housing in total. And there is no way that landlords should get any difference in their income from anybody else.

Idbatterim

its quite brilliant here, they wont put in a decent transport system, that would allow people to feasibly buy further out and commute in and have it as an option where you arent wasting hours a day commuting. They wont go anywhere even near "high rise" even in the docklands, where many of the buildings going up are 6 floors, beside tara street a 22 storey tower has been permitted, which is fine, but 6 floors in the docklands overlooking water!

They wont address construction costs... Same old Ireland, same old s**t. Lessons learned LOL, good one!

SarahMollie

Eugene Norman wrote: »

There isnt really any inidcation that the landlords are fleeing. Thats not the reason. In fact there are still a lot of cash investors, many would be landlords.

Its the lack of housing in total. And there is no way that landlords should get any difference in their income from anybody else.

Actually if you read the LL forums on here and other places seems lots are getting out. I bought my place from a BTL investor who was getting out.

Rental income is different than PAYE income. A person has to invest a significant amount of their own capital and/or borrow heavily in order to earn that income.

I think some relief is in order, but supply is the factor thats really crippling everything.

SarahMollie

Idbatterim wrote: »

its quite brilliant here, they wont put in a decent transport system, that would allow people to feasibly buy further out and commute in and have it as an option where you arent wasting hours a day commuting. They wont go anywhere even near "high rise" even in the docklands, where many of the buildings going up are 6 floors, beside tara street a 22 storey tower has been permitted, which is fine, but 6 floors in the docklands overlooking water!

They wont address construction costs... Same old Ireland, same old s**t. Lessons learned LOL, good one!

Actually a decent transport system should be paired wtih people living closer to the city center. We need high density - we need to go upwards not outwards!

Lost of cities have beautifully developed high rise developments on their waterfronts. I think it would be an improvement.

Idbatterim

Lost of cities have beautifully developed high rise developments on their waterfronts. I think it would be an improvement.

we need a decent transport system and I agree about the waterfront development, what has been built in the docklands and what is being permitted is an architectural disgrace and unsustainable development...

SarahMollie

Idbatterim wrote: »

we need a decent transport system and I agree about the waterfront development, what has been built in the docklands and what is being permitted is an architectural disgrace and unsustainable development...

Exactly.

If we continue to sprawl, the the costs of building a metro for example only increases as it has to go further and further out. If more people lived a proper city existance, lived in high rise apartments, and didnt need to own a car to get around, then a metro becomes more and more viable.

6/7 story buildings are doing no one any favors. They should be about 20 IMO.

SarahMollie

qrx wrote: »

There must be a lot of amateur landlords out there raking in the cash. Take your average schmuck landlord who is still on a tracker mortgage and not paying any tax on their earnings. If I was to rent out my house I'd see a 136% increase on rent versus mortgage.

The property bubble is still there and still inflating, it's just shifted to the rental market.

Why would they not be paying tax? Guarantee you they are. Many at 51%

Also, they may have trackers, but the sums borrowed in the boom years still command significant repayments.

April 73

Construction in Dublin shut down for five years so we're behind on the number of dwellings needed. We have an expanding population with lots of young people who want to rent. Landlord costs have been pushed up by the government over the last number of years contributing to increases in rent. The rent freeze pushed extra increases through in the last quarter of 2015. The central bank rules mean it will take longer for people to save deposits in order to buy & exit the rental market.

It's a pressure cooker environment & the steam is being released in the rental market & driving prices higher. With all of those factors it's no wonder rents are up.

For every action there's always a reaction. Sometimes unintended & since this is Ireland, usually not anticipated.

qrx

SarahMollie wrote: »

Why would they not be paying tax? Guarantee you they are. Many at 51%

Also, they may have trackers, but the sums borrowed in the boom years still command significant repayments.

Partly because they can get away with it, very easily and because it would be giving money "to the man" and partly pure ignorance. And do you think many of them have informed the banks of the change in circumstances and switched to a buy to let mortgage or do you think most of them have played ignorant in order to keep their nice tracker rates?

SarahMollie

qrx wrote: »

Partly because they can get away with it, very easily and because it would be giving money "to the man" and partly pure ignorance. And do you think many of them have informed the banks of the change in circumstances and switched to a buy to let mortgage or do you think most of them have played ignorant in order to keep their nice tracker rates?

If we have one competent department in this whole country, its the Revenue.

Whether or not people choose to inform their lenders is another story (I'm sure they don't) but most people know its fairly foolhardy to try to get one over on the Revenue.

MarkAnthony

Giving the relief to tenants will become a self regualting tax collection mechanism. The Landlords that are currently in Cavan, err doging tax will be left with the dregs of tenants as the first question will be, can I have your PPS number to register the teanancy please.

Yes rents would go up, absolutely. Thats the incentive side for landlords, the trick is balancing it. We've tried tax incentives for Landlords, it didn't work and neither should it. It should be a business like any other with income tax payments. Now I'm all for making it easier for landlords to incorporate.

Tax relief on the purchase of certain properties was a terrible idea, it's ghettoised some tenents into apartment blocks that the owners where never going to live in. When buying a property as an investment LLs should not have an advantage over an owner occupier. Furthermore they should be selecting a property on the basis of someone actually wanting to live in it rather than it beinging somewhere you can't swing a cat let alone put a dog.

mickoneill31

qrx wrote: »

Partly because they can get away with it, very easily and because it would be giving money "to the man" and partly pure ignorance. And do you think many of them have informed the banks of the change in circumstances and switched to a buy to let mortgage or do you think most of them have played ignorant in order to keep their nice tracker rates?

Do you have any statistics or is this just the usual pie in the sky waffling you get a lot of in Ireland?

brownej

SarahMollie wrote: »

Exactly.

If we continue to sprawl, the the costs of building a metro for example only increases as it has to go further and further out. If more people lived a proper city existance, lived in high rise apartments, and didnt need to own a car to get around, then a metro becomes more and more viable.

6/7 story buildings are doing no one any favors. They should be about 20 IMO.

6/7 story buildings are not the problem. They should be the solution.
Look at Paris. It is one of the most densely populated cities in the world and it doesn't have huge amounts of residential high rise. It achieves its density by having 6 and 7 story buildings everywhere! None of this Semi D stuff.
Munich is similar. Lots and lots of medium rise everywhere.
Develoments like the area around the beacon hospital in Sandyford should be the norm and should be inside the canals.

MarkAnthony

To be fair, although I agree completely on the High rise front and the lack of need, Paris is a rental disaster.