Driving ban for "speeding".

JumpShivers

Is it reasonable that penalty points are applied for just being marginally over the limit? Thus causing a person to get banned if they are caught as little as four times.

In The Netherlands, for example, points no longer apply for minor offenses once you have your license five years afaik.

A person could be caught twice within a short period by a speed trap on the Dublin Quays by a hidden speed van on the 30 zone doing 34, then maybe 127 on the motorway by the tripod and maybe once at 65 on one of those 60 zones that vans like to park in.

You may say that a person should learn their lesson the first time that they are caught, but some of these speed traps are so well hidden that you may not notice them until the last minute, and sometimes the notice takes up to a couple of months to come out so you may not even receive the first notice until you've been nabbed for the fourth time.

Should speeding fines not be graduated depending on speed and area that the speeding took place with points not applying until the speed is excessive, such as 20 km over?

If you stop and sag it to yourself over and over, it really does sound ridiculous, that a person can be banned for driving only a few kph over a few times.

The old argument that people's speedos would be reading much more holds no water any more, as a lot of people rely on gps for speed readings now.

Atomic Pineapple

I think your post raises a second issue too and that is, should a person be able to get a second set of penalty points before they are even informed of the first offence?

Valetta

JumpShivers wrote: »

Is it reasonable that penalty points are applied for just being marginally over the limit? Thus causing a person to get banned if they are caught as little as four times.

In The Netherlands, for example, points no longer apply for minor offenses once you have your license five years afaik.

A person could be caught twice within a short period by a speed trap on the Dublin Quays by a hidden speed van on the 30 zone doing 34, then maybe 127 on the motorway by the tripod and maybe once at 65 on one of those 60 zones that vans like to park in.

You may say that a person should learn their lesson the first time that they are caught, but some of these speed traps are so well hidden that you may not notice them until the last minute, and sometimes the notice takes up to a couple of months to come out so you may not even receive the first notice until you've been nabbed for the fourth time.

Should speeding fines not be graduated depending on speed and area that the speeding took place with points not applying until the speed is excessive, such as 20 km over?

If you stop and sag it to yourself over and over, it really does sound ridiculous, that a person can be banned for driving only a few kph over a few times.

The old argument that people's speedos would be reading much more holds no water any more, as a lot of people rely on gps for speed readings now.

All the more reason for them not to get caught in the first place.

It's not that difficult not to get points for speeding. Anyone that says otherwise is talking bs.

SCOOP 64

i thought the speeding fine had to be issued with in 14 days ?
2 months seems a long time,
and isnt there some leeway for being 2/3klm over the limit?

MarkAnthony

I actually completely agree with you in graduated fines. The French have it sorted IMO. Website, pay your dues, no points for minor offences.

However they are also unbelieveable when it comes to enforcement, therefore it's a quid pro quo. If you get caught in Ireland regually then there is something wrong with the way you're driving. If you've already got a load of points one would expect to be on their best behaviour. Remember is a limit not a target. If you can't do 120 without doing 127 do 110 and stay over to the left

runawaybishop

"As little as four times"?

If you don't learn after the second you deserve it.

NinjaTruncs

runawaybishop wrote: »

"As little as four times"?

If you don't learn after the second you deserve it.

Particularly if they are relying on GPS to monitor their speed.

Steve

If you are only a few k over then appeal it and go to court.. chances are it will be dismissed.

Hrududu

JumpShivers wrote: »

You may say that a person should learn their lesson the first time that they are caught, but some of these speed traps are so well hidden that you may not notice them until the last minute,

Seems like the simple solution to this problem is to not speed.

JumpShivers

runawaybishop wrote: »

"As little as four times"?

If you don't learn after the second you deserve it.

Carefully read the OP again please. I said there could be a situation where someone is caught for the fourth time before they even receive notice of the first

runawaybishop

JumpShivers wrote: »

Carefully read the OP again please. I said there could be a situation where someone is caught for the fourth time before they even receive notice of the first

And there could be a situation where I win the lotto and the euromillions in the same week.

They are speeding, constantly. Tough **** imo.

Valetta

JumpShivers wrote: »

Carefully read the OP again please. I said there could be a situation where someone is caught for the fourth time before they even receive notice of the first

Is it ok to shoplift, so long as you don't get caught?

PeteK*

JumpShivers wrote: »

You may say that a person should learn their lesson the first time that they are caught, but some of these speed traps are so well hidden that you may not notice them until the last minute

If you don't notice them it's because you're flying past and not paying attention anyway, in my opinion.

9935452

JumpShivers wrote: »

Carefully read the OP again please. I said there could be a situation where someone is caught for the fourth time before they even receive notice of the first

Wasnt there a poster on here that had a friend who was doing deliveries for a takeaway and got 4 speeding tickets the same night

Wheelnut

The OP tried to start an interesting discussion about the structure of speeding fines because being a fraction over the limit gets the same penalty as being well over the limit, and being a fraction over is an easy mistake to make more than once. However, the usual crowd from the moral high ground have arrived with comments like "speeding is naughty and you must not do it." It's going to be difficult to make progress on the main issue while those bullsh!t comments are coming in.

Victor

JumpShivers wrote: »

Is it reasonable that penalty points are applied for just being marginally over the limit?

The line has to be drawn somewhere, so yes.

Thus causing a person to get banned if they are caught as little as four times.

Caught 4 times means they were doing it a lot more than 4 times.

In The Netherlands, for example, points no longer apply for minor offenses once you have your license five years afaik.

This seems odd. Do you have anything to back this up? Note that in The Netherlands, you can expect to have your speed checked by the authorities several hundred times per year. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_system_(driving)#Netherlands Seems to be true. However, if you get 2 points, you get banned and have to re-sit your driving test.

A person could be caught twice within a short period by a speed trap on the Dublin Quays by a hidden speed van on the 30 zone doing 34

It's a pedestrian rich zone. If you can't see the van, will you see the pedestrians?

You may say that a person should learn their lesson the first time that they are caught, but some of these speed traps are so well hidden

So what? Do you expect the Gard to phone drug dealers before they do a raid?

sometimes the notice takes up to a couple of months

Not ideal.

you may not even receive the first notice until you've been nabbed for the fourth time.

This means that you have missed the signs 4 times.

Should speeding fines not be graduated depending on speed and area that the speeding took place

with points not applying until the speed is excessive, such as 20 km over?

No. Again, the line has to be drawn somewhere. Otherwise you'd have pervs saying "Judge, she was only 19% under the age of 17*, I shouldn't be punished". * Under 14.

If you stop and sag it to yourself over and over, it really does sound ridiculous, that a person can be banned for driving only a few kph over a few times.

The old argument that people's speedos would be reading much more holds no water any more, as a lot of people rely on gps for speed readings now.

You can also make them go 'ding' as you reach the limit.

millington

I'm no more a saint than anyone on here as it is, but if there was no points, what would be the point in the limit? If I could go 10k over without getting points, I probably would anyway since the risk of getting caught is so low.

I'd say a lot of people feel the same and overall the effect would be the same as increasing the speed limit by 10k. Doesn't make practical sense.

That said, I do think a lot of the 3 point offences are a bit harsh. I think running a red light is only 1 :eek:

vectra

I have to laugh at some of the replies here.
A lot of you should be in Cheltenham this week lads with those lovely high horses ye are riding on.

I suppose you all have halo's over your heads as well.?

It realy and truly is so simple to get nabbed here.

Cabaal

vectra wrote: »

I have to laugh at some of the replies here.
A lot of you should be in Cheltenham this week lads with those lovely high horses ye are riding on.

I suppose you all have halo's over your heads as well.?

It realy and truly is so simple to get nabbed here.

And yet I've been driving years and not fined for speeding once, people that don't want to accept that THEY are at fault for being caugh speeding clearly have issues accepting personal responsibility.

Avoiding getting points and fines for speeding is easy, you just don't want to seem to want to...its easier blame others

Boater123

9935452 wrote: »

Wasnt there a poster on here that had a friend who was doing deliveries for a takeaway and got 4 speeding tickets the same night

Ah, takeaway deliveries, the fifth emergency service, just after taxis. They should be issues with blue lights.

Billgirlylegs

JumpShivers wrote: »

Carefully read the OP again please. I said there could be a situation where someone is caught for the fourth time before they even receive notice of the first

The only four times you were a person was speeding, they were caught?
And it all happened in quick succession and then stopped.

Jayzus, how unlucky can one person be?

Billgirlylegs

Wheelnut wrote: »

The OP tried to start an interesting discussion about the structure of speeding fines because being a fraction over the limit gets the same penalty as being well over the limit, and being a fraction over is an easy mistake to make more than once. However, the usual crowd from the moral high ground have arrived with comments like "speeding is naughty and you must not do it." It's going to be difficult to make progress on the main issue while those bullsh!t comments are coming in.

In your opinion, what is the main issue?

Here is mine - uninvited and all - there is a speed limit,we all know what it is, we all know why it is there,and we all have the means to drive / stick below it.

You know what the penalty is for not sticking to it.

On the odd occasion, attention might drift and you exceed it, but if you are not able to mind your speed, can you honestly say you are in control of your car?

Skatedude

I got 2 points for doing 53 km in a 50 zone, so you can be done for been slightly over the limit, hence the name "speed limit" sucks but not unusual.

Woodville56

Cabaal wrote: »

And yet I've been driving years and not fined for speeding once, people that don't want to accept that THEY are at fault for being caugh speeding clearly have issues accepting personal responsibility.

Avoiding getting points and fines for speeding is easy, you just don't want to seem to want to...its easier blame others

I have no issue with speed detection when/ where it's warranted, but some of the Garda speed traps are purely and simply revenue or brownie point generators for the Garda. I know of at least 2 locations where they operate, right on the edge of village speed zones and where, to the best of local knowledge there's never been a fatality or serious accident. Yet go out on country byroads at weekends and you see crazy kamikaze stuff, boy racers tearing up the roads and never a Garda speed surveillance operation in sight. I know of several stretches of roads where these cowboys operate and the local community have informed the Gardai, to be told that they can't have mobile patrols on every road, yet not five miles away the Traffic Corps can spend a couple of hours a week parked up on the edge of a village clocking anyone doing over 50km/hr. I'm all for speed enforcement but some of what's going on is lazy policing, it's much easier to shoot fish in a barrel than go after the more serious and serial offenders on our roads.

Charles Babbage

There is case for a graduated penalty. So +10% on the speed limit would attract a ticket, but no points unless you get several of these tickets in a period. Then 10-20% over would have a small number of points and 20%+ over would be double that.

Irish laws are too often designed to be convenient for administration rather than justice.

Woodville56

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

In your opinion, what is the main issue?

Here is mine - uninvited and all - there is a speed limit,we all know what it is, we all know why it is there,and we all have the means to drive / stick below it.

You know what the penalty is for not sticking to it.

On the odd occasion, attention might drift and you exceed it, but if you are not able to mind your speed, can you honestly say you are in control of your car?

Do you think it's appropriate that someone with over 25 years accident and penalty free driving should get stuck with 3 penalty points for doing 59 in a 50km zone while someone doing 90 or 100 km in an 80 zone gets the same 3 points & fine ? Imo, there's a need for some degree of graduation or mitigation for first offences, depending on driving record and degree of speed over limit involved etc

millington

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

The only four times you were a person was speeding, they were caught?
And it all happened in quick succession and then stopped.

Jayzus, how unlucky can one person be?

I actually know one very silly person who got caught 4 times in 2 weeks by a camera van, in the same place. Very slightly over the limit every time. Went to court and got away with it.

Wouldn't consider him a dangerous driver at all, I don't know how I haven't been caught by the same van myself as it's a in a ludicrous place but just goes to show anythings possible :pac:

cdeb

JumpShivers wrote: »

The old argument that people's speedos would be reading much more holds no water any more, as a lot of people rely on gps for speed readings now.

Why doesn't it apply?

You've a big dial in front of you telling you how fast you're going - trying to help you, in fact, by giving a margin of error.

If you ignore that big dial, surely that's your own fault?

cruizer101

Reminds me of a story my friend told me. In Australia (or at least certain territories) they have graduated penalty points, they also have bonus double points on bank holiday weekends.
So he was away on a trip out to the country/outback and happened to get nabbed twice. Once at over 10 km/h over limit and once at over 20 km/h over the limit (without getting into the right and wrong of it when he was over 20 it was a 60km/h 3 lane in the dead of night). So this resulted in him getting 2 and 3 points except they were doubled because of bank holiday so in one evening he got 10 points. Luckily his licence was in another territory and so he didn't get them applied just had to pay the fines, also double. That would have been feckin unlucky.

I do think there could be scope for graduated points here also, within 10% of limit only 1 point or some such, would seem a bit fairer, feck those bank holiday doubles mind.

Jesus.

Valetta wrote: »

Is it ok to shoplift, so long as you don't get caught?

Good Lord :rolleyes:

Valetta

Jesus. wrote: »

Good Lord :rolleyes:

Yes, my son?

savagethegoat

Cabaal wrote: »

And yet I've been driving years and not fined for speeding once, people that don't want to accept that THEY are at fault for being caugh speeding clearly have issues accepting personal responsibility.

Avoiding getting points and fines for speeding is easy, you just don't want to seem to want to...its easier blame others

A very good point, I rarely get overtaken , so I imagine I'm one of the faster drivers around and I usually sit just over the limit...and yet I have no points and never have had, mainly because I spot the vans or gards before they spot me and it's easy to knock the speed back 5 or 10 km/h. Should I get caught , I wouldn't complain.

The system is what it is, we have to work within it's limitations, not compare it to other countries

Boskowski

My own personal policy used to be just don't go over the speed limit by more than - say - 20. Cos if your speedo says 80 you're really doing 72 or so and then there is a tolerance in any case, so you'd be safe enough doing 65 in a 50 zone or 80 in a 60 zone etc. But that was back home and some years ago. Speedometers are still showing more but the Irish speed gunners don't seem to have a 'tolerance' and in any case its now almost impossible to drive too fast. Where I live my main road is 80 with speed vans on it occasionally, so everybody is doing just under 70 to be sure <weeps a little>. Only a few years ago the same road was 100 and we were all doing 110 anyway. Soul destroying stuff to line up every day in that long row of cars doing something between 60 and 70 with that inevitable Nissan Micra at the top of the queue <weeps some more>.

As to the OP, I feel your pain but of course it does need pointing out that you could simply not drive any faster than the limit and you wouldn't get any points. But I agree with you. Same points and money for 5 over and 50 over is a rather halfarsed solution.

dr.fuzzenstein

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I actually completely agree with you in graduated fines. The French have it sorted IMO. Website, pay your dues, no points for minor offences.

However they are also unbelieveable when it comes to enforcement, therefore it's a quid pro quo. If you get caught in Ireland regually then there is something wrong with the way you're driving. If you've already got a load of points one would expect to be on their best behaviour. Remember is a limit not a target. If you can't do 120 without doing 127 do 110 and stay over to the left

This phrase should be banned or at least printed on an A3 sheet, rolled up and inserted rectally into anyone who uses it.

edit:
BTW, I do not have points.

edit 2:
Non graduated points work in my favour! Instead of driving on the motorway at 123.5 km/h and nervously scanning the road ahead, i simply drive at 140 km/h without a care in the world, because I know it's the same end result.
So it's an incentive that if you are going to speed, you might as well make it count and floor it. Same end result, unless you're really taking the piss and go up to 160 or 180 km/h.
I can hear neighing already.

Jesus.

Valetta wrote: »

Yes, my son?

MarkAnthony

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

This phrase should be banned or at least printed on an A3 sheet, rolled up and inserted rectally into anyone who uses it.

edit:
BTW, I do not have points.

A3 isn't much of a challenge.

dr.fuzzenstein

Sideways and stuck on inch thick chipboard.

9935452

Boskowski wrote: »

My own personal policy used to be just don't go over the speed limit by more than - say - 20. Cos if your speedo says 80 you're really doing 72 or so and then there is a tolerance in any case, so you'd be safe enough doing 65 in a 50 zone or 80 in a 60 zone etc. But that was back home and some years ago. Speedometers are still showing more but the Irish speed gunners don't seem to have a 'tolerance' and in any case its now almost impossible to drive too fast. Where I live my main road is 80 with speed vans on it occasionally, so everybody is doing just under 70 to be sure <weeps a little>. Only a few years ago the same road was 100 and we were all doing 110 anyway. Soul destroying stuff to line up every day in that long row of cars doing something between 60 and 70 with that inevitable Nissan Micra at the top of the queue <weeps some more>.

As to the OP, I feel your pain but of course it does need pointing out that you could simply not drive any faster than the limit and you wouldn't get any points. But I agree with you. Same points and money for 5 over and 50 over is a rather halfarsed solution.

Its not exactly safe to assume that when the speedo is reading 80 you are doing 72. i find with my car at 75mph on new tyres its 2mph out and on bald tyres its 4mph out. When lads change wheels and put on differnt size tyres this can knock. out the ratio more

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

This phrase should be banned or at least printed on an A3 sheet, rolled up and inserted rectally into anyone who uses it.

edit:
BTW, I do not have points.

edit 2:
Non graduated points work in my favour! Instead of driving on the motorway at 123.5 km/h and nervously scanning the road ahead, i simply drive at 140 km/h without a care in the world, because I know it's the same end result.
So it's an incentive that if you are going to speed, you might as well make it count and floor it. Same end result, unless you're really taking the piss and go up to 160 or 180 km/h.
I can hear neighing already.

I was told of a story about 2 auld lads. the first one got caught speeding by a guard with a tripod doing 15mph over the limit.
A few weeks later the other chap was caught speeding doing just over the speed limit. He then asked the guard to put it down on the ticket that he was 30mph over the speed limit purely to have bragging rights over his friend , that he was going faster .lol

Pugzilla

What's the penalty for being caught doing 300 km/hour?

Court appearance and loss of licence?

cletus

I never understand this argument. I've no issue with diving faster then the legal limit, providing the conditions allow for it.

I have no penalty points, but were I to get them for speeding, I wouldn't be blaming the fella with the camera. I choose to drive the way I do, and I accept responsibility for those actions.

Re the graduated fines, given the Irish attitude of, sure its grand, the net effect would be to increase limits all around. Driving in a 50 zone?, sure you don't even get points till 60, drive on.

Valetta

Pugzilla wrote: »

What's the penalty for being caught doing 300 km/hour?

Court appearance and loss of licence?

I would have thought so.

Dangerous driving would be the charge.

Prison could also be a possibility.

JackHeuston

Pugzilla wrote: »

What's the penalty for being caught doing 300 km/hour?

Court appearance and loss of licence?

Getting your car spread on the road like butter at the first pothole or gap between stretches of road would be enough of a punishment. But yes there's court (with possible jail time), loss of licence, and your car seized.

DavyD_83

Valetta wrote: »

Is it ok to shoplift, so long as you don't get caught?

Of course not, but if you got caught doing it repeatedly within a week and nobody stopped you the first day to tell you there were cameras it seems ok; as long as each day you weren't stealing anything over say €100
:pac:

AlanG

I think the OP makes some good points that should be discussed. It is easy to say don't speed but that doesn't mean the penalties for speeding should not make sense. There are plenty of places on the quays in Dubin where it is mad to have a 30km/h speed limit after peak times so it woudl be quite easy for someone who has to use that route to get caught 4 times. Of course if you don't have to drive that route during quiet times it is easy to look down on the evil speeders doing 34km/h on a 3 lane road at 5am.

DavyD_83

AlanG wrote: »

I think the OP makes some good points that should be discussed. It is easy to say don't speed but that doesn't mean the penalties for speeding should not make sense. There are plenty of places on the quays in Dubin where it is mad to have a 30km/h speed limit after peak times so it woudl be quite easy for someone who has to use that route to get caught 4 times. Of course if you don't have to drive that route during quiet times it is easy to look down on the evil speeders doing 34km/h on a 3 lane road at 5am.

This is a fair point, but I think it is more grounds for the rules to be changed, rather than the penalties.
Rules/Laws that are implemented (and/or enforced) need to make sense and be fit for purpose.
There is no point having a 50 limit, where everybody drives at 60, and Gards pop out once in a while to collect some revenue (Benildus Avenue, UCD Flyover both come to mind). If the limit is justified and makes sense, it should be enforced to a level that supports this (There are many points where i'm sure a static camera would more than cover its costs) or admit that it is nonsense and change to align with reality

Although I'm not sure courts and Gardaí would agree, but IMO a certain level of public disregard or disagreement with a rule or its enforcement should lead to some form of review.
If a certain percentage of drivers can be shown to ignore a speed limit; either lives are seriously at risk and a further control is needed, or that limit is wrong.

Special Circumstances

DavyD_83 wrote: »

This is a fair point, but I think it is more grounds for the rules to be changed, rather than the penalties.
Rules/Laws that are implemented (and/or enforced) need to make sense and be fit for purpose.
There is no point having a 50 limit, where everybody drives at 60, and Gards pop out once in a while to collect some revenue (Benildus Avenue, UCD Flyover both come to mind). If the limit is justified and makes sense, it should be enforced to a level that supports this (There are many points where i'm sure a static camera would more than cover its costs) or admit that it is nonsense and change to align with reality

Although I'm not sure courts and Gardaí would agree, but IMO a certain level of public disregard or disagreement with a rule or its enforcement should lead to some form of review.
If a certain percentage of drivers can be shown to ignore a speed limit; either lives are seriously at risk and a further control is needed, or that limit is wrong.

The logic of this will make many people's heads explode unfortunately!

I have a special hatred for silly limits inconsistently applied as a "solution" for crap infrastructure/engineering/planning/maintenance.

dr.fuzzenstein

Pugzilla wrote: »

What's the penalty for being caught doing 300 km/hour?

Court appearance and loss of licence?

Nothing. All speed camera photos would only show a blur and nothing the Gards have could catch you, including the helicopter.

JackHeuston wrote: »

Getting your car spread on the road like butter at the first pothole or gap between stretches of road would be enough of a punishment. But yes there's court (with possible jail time), loss of licence, and your car seized.

Should be perfectly possible on a good stretch of empty motorway. And it's not unfeasible, 240 km/h is very attainable with even some very boggo cars, I did this in a Fiat Bravo 1.9 diesel.

Jesus.

150mph in a 1.9 diesel Fiat? Doc have you been at the methylated spirits again?

9935452

Jesus. wrote: »

150mph in a 1.9 diesel Fiat? Doc have you been at the methylated spirits again?

Indicated speed on the dash. knock off 10 percent for overreading, maybe worn tyres, and possibly smaller diameter wheels .
Google the top speed of the car and its probably round 125/130mph.

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/fiat/bravo/hatchback-2007/

I reckon that manufacturers will put down as good speed figures as they can get.

Unless it was down hill, wind assisted

Jesus.

So in other words nowhere near a ton & a half in his wildest dreams

vectra

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Nothing. All speed camera photos would only show a blur and nothing the Gards have could catch you, including the helicopter.



Should be perfectly possible on a good stretch of empty motorway. And it's not unfeasible, 240 km/h is very attainable with even some very boggo cars, I did this in a Fiat Bravo 1.9 diesel.

That was some going.

The most I saw on a Bravo 1.8gt petrol was 124mph.

The most any of the vRS's would do would be scraping 250kph.

Should have bought a Bravo i think LOL