Bad Boys Lurking in the Trees?

The Chieftain

The just finished free access to the FMP Irish databases makes me wonder what others have found in the prison and petty session records. Being made of proud patriotic stock, I was not surprised to find some examples of the repression our brave boys had to endure:

- One poor cousin won a free, one way cruise to the Antipodes, and seven years in Van Diemen's Land, with all expenses paid! Why? Simply because he took the trouble to warn the local land agent of the severe health risks of lead poisoning - in verse!

- A cousin ended up in debtors prison for refusing to subsidize the decadent lifestyle of his landlord.

- The Inland Revenue persecuted another g-g-uncle for adulterating his tobacco. He was of course just trying to reduce substance abuse!

spurious

I have one took the family's means of income, flogged it and went off to Americkay on the proceeds, leaving them behind with no way of making a living. What a charmer. His brother was charged with a serious assault on the thieving brother at about the same time.

Also have a very early RIC man and a London Met constable.

L1011

Mothers family were terrible at letting livestock wander all around Stillorgan. Later, after a trip through the United Irish League and being an IRA "judge"* in the war of independence her grandfather was rewarded with a part-time court clerk job that didn't interfere with running his shop.

*although in the area he lived in, they were the only form of courts actually functioning.

Fathers side had RIC and a Revenue Sheriff (at least according to the census - but as he was also marked as blind I suspect the word 'retired' was missing at the very least!) and also lived mainly in an area that was one of the first to have its landlord bought out so there was little in the way of rent, land agents etc to concern the authorities.

cowboyBuilder

Which databases are these ? -http://www.findmypast.ie/ ?

cowboyBuilder

Just looking there and find info on my Grandfather, but seems I have to pay, is it worth it ?

L1011

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Just looking there and find info on my Grandfather, but seems I have to pay, is it worth it ?

"30" day trial - make sure to cancel well before the 30 - gets them free.

How much use it is to you depends on how much research you've done so far really. Its unlikely to make a breakthrough but it has helped, e.g. you might be able to exclude a load of potential death records because someone is still clearly alive by being in court or having a dog licence, etc.

Most of their other records are free elsewhere.

spurious

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Just looking there and find info on my Grandfather, but seems I have to pay, is it worth it ?

There may be other ways to find it, without paying.

cowboyBuilder

Allready seems fishy, says my grandad was born in 1905, while my Dad insists its 1908....

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

L1011

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Allready seems fishy, says my grandad was born in 1905, while my Dad insists its 1908....

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Either you've got the wrong person or your Dad is incorrect - it would be impossible to backdate a civil record that long.

spurious

My granny liked to tell us all she was born 'with the sounds of the 1916 Rising', which was a good one as she was born 150 miles away, in June, in 1914.

cowboyBuilder

hahaha my Dad was wrong !!

he found his birth cert !!

pedroeibar1

If you have that you have the family address, so you can check the Census

P. Breathnach

One great-grandfather was done for having an unlicensed dog (after having purchased licences for about 8 consecutive years previously). He was also done for selling undipped sheep during the dipping season.

I found another great-grandfather had been in prison twice in the same year. In each case, for the same reason: desertion. He deserted twice in the year in which he had signed up, suggesting that he found that army life didn't suit him. But he eventually served 10 years, with postings in Scotland, England, and then India. He didn't even make it to lance-corporal, so he probably was right about army life not being for him.

The Chieftain

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I found another great-grandfather had been in prison twice in the same year. In each case, for the same reason: desertion. He deserted twice in the year in which he had signed up, suggesting that he found that army life didn't suit him. But he eventually served 10 years, with postings in Scotland, England, and then India. He didn't even make it to lance-corporal, so he probably was right about army life not being for him.

There is another possibility. That he liked the recruitment bonus so much that he wanted another... serial enlistment to get multiple bonuses did happen.

The Chieftain

As he is in my signature, I guess I should mention that although he did not pop up via an FMP index search this time, a great-uncle was imprisoned in the wake of 1916, followed by an all-expenses paid trip as a guest of HM to Frongoch, Wales. [Did find his records previously].
I did not look him up as he is not a blood relative, only by marriage, but the famous Invincible "Skin-the-Goat" is presumably in the records as well.

In my first post I only listed the more serious cases, but in the petty sessions records family members were up for
- Trespass by pigs and goats
- Cattle, pigs and horses wandering on road,
- Blocking the footpath with a car (i.e. jaunting car)
- Cycling without a light
- Unlettered car, i.e. no name and address painted on it.
- Playing ball in the street
- Nonpayment of servants wages
- Trying to get labourers out of the lodging they were overstaying in.
- Being drunk in public
- Unlicensed dogs....

No wonder 1916 happened with all the persecution that was going on!

P. Breathnach

The Chieftain wrote: »

There is another possibility. That he liked the recruitment bonus so much that he wanted another... serial enlistment to get multiple bonuses did happen.

Well, the "Queen's shilling" was £2-10-0 at the time, when a labourer might have been paid 10/- a week. That makes your suggestion plausible, but it wasn't so in this case. I have seen his records, and he was definitely not made for soldiering.

KildareFan

Most of my ancestors starred in the courts for various dogs, asses, cows, wandering on the public highway, being drunk on the public street, no light on the bicycle. but what about this one:
"That you the said defendant on Sunday the 16th day of August 1885 [...] did unlawfully follow your calling as a labourer and did labour on your farm by working at hay, said work not being a work of necessity or charity, you the said defendant being upwards of fourteen years of aged, said offence being in contravention of 7 Wm III, Chap 17. Sec 1 (Irish)" fined sixpence and costs one shilling

pedroeibar1

Usually it was a priest from a pulpit who laid down the ‘no work on Sundays’ law. I know several farmers who even today would never work on a Sunday and have an inculcated belief that something bad would happen - “There would be no luck in that work”.

It was a 200 year old law, from 1695, “Dutch William” and his Act declaring which days in the year shall be observed as holy-days, one of several drafted to 'put manners on papists'. Interestingly, another section states “Any constable who refuses to execute this punishment shall himself be bound over for contempt, and if found guilty, fined not more that 20 shillings.

Unless it was in the North East, in 1885 that prosecution suggests IMO someone was out to get him for other activities (politics?). Difficult year, changes to voting/elections/Home rule/Parnell/National League/Davitt, etc.

KildareFan

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Unless it was in the North East, in 1885 that prosecution suggests IMO someone was out to get him for other activities (politics?). Difficult year, changes to voting/elections/Home rule/Parnell/National League/Davitt, etc.

Good point, but looking at my esteemed ancestor's record, it was probably because of numerous arrests for drunkenness and fighting which only stopped when he was found drowned in the Royal Canal.

pedroeibar1

Fond of the drop, he ended in the drink! At least it was not the other 'drop' which happened to a relative mine in the mid 1800's.

The Chieftain

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Fond of the drop, he ended in the drink! At least it was not the other 'drop' which happened to a relative mine in the mid 1800's.

I have always been astonished at how ready they were to launch people into eternity back then. In particular, I always think of an 1820s case I read about where they hanged a very young girl/woman. For stealing a handkerchief! Her misfortune was that it was a silk handkerchief, and that made it valuable to the extent that her crime was classified as a felony, and a felony was punishable by death. These days, I doubt there would even be a custodial sentence.

pedroeibar1

The Chieftain wrote: »

........In particular, I always think of an 1820s case I read about where they hanged a very young girl/woman. For stealing a handkerchief! Her misfortune was that it was a silk handkerchief, and that made it valuable to the extent that her crime was classified as a felony, and a felony was punishable by death. .........

For anyone with a hanged ancestor it is important to examine the sentence in context. Even in the 1700’s generally there were major efforts made to claim the value of the stolen item was below the threshold where death would be the outcome.

By 1826 almost all of Waltham’s ‘Black Acts’ were gone, and from about 1814 the number of capital offences was being reduced rapidly. What we now regard as petty crimes no longer were hanging offenses – the last (?) hanged under them was for chopping down apple trees in 1814. By the very early 1820s shoplifting was not a hanging offence. While children regularly were sentenced to death in the early 1800’s for capital offences, very few if any executions took place. Forgery was a capital offence, pardons often granted/ not always enforced but when there was an 'outbreak' of forgeries the noose was used as a deterrent.

There also was considerable use of what was known as a ‘partial verdict’.

The Old Baily site is a fantastic resource.

In Ireland the numbers hanged in any given year were heavily influenced by societal events such as rebellion, a drive to stamp out agrarian crime, to reinforce protection for property rights, etc., – e.g. in 1840 – 1847 hangings in Ireland numbered +/- half dozen a year. Then in 1848 there were 32 (after processing the cases from the Famine). All of those were for murder (or attempted or conspiracy to murder.)

There was (when that forum was a better place) an interesting discussion here

pinkypinky

I think this thread is more suited to History & Heritage.