Inherited house - Trying to but out one sibling who is unwilling to sell

chainsawpaddy

Hello,

I would greatly appreciate any advise on the following matter.

My partner and one of her brothers own a house which was bought about 10 years ago. It was bought as a retirement home for their mother and the mortgage was in my partners and her brothers name, as their mother could not get one. Their mother did not live in the house for most of this time, but she paid for the mortgage since the beginning, although a different son lived in the house rent free from the beginning (10 years). He paid no rent and caused a tremendous amount of stress on his mother having to pay the mortgage every month when their business went down hill after the crash.

When they lost the family business their mother became ill and moved into her house in June of last year (2015), along with my partner as her mothers carer. The freeloading son in the house made life very difficult for the both of them. As if he felt the house was his and they were intruding.

Things were made even worse when their mother was diagnosed with cancer and died within two months (September), leaving my partner and the freeloading son in the house together. He has not worked in years (ever really) and is on the dole. He has a daughter and his on/off partner is also on the dole.

It was their mothers wishes that the house be left to the three of them, as the mortgage will be cleared in the coming months. However the house is in my partners and a different brothers name, therefore legally it will belong to them and not the freeloading brother. But their is a moral obligation to honour the mothers wishes.

Initially it was the intention that the house be sold and split between the three. My dilemma is my partner has decided that she does not want her mothers house to be sold after slaving to pay for it for a decade, so I propositioned the working decent brother and offered him X amount for his third [although he legally has 50% ownership] and he agreed. I had intended to just make an offer to the freeloading brother and had assumed that he would accept the offer, but it hasn't worked out that way. When the freeloading brother found out I was intending to buy out the other brother he caused a strop and said he wanted to buy him out instead.

They will have some money coming to them and he may have enough to buy one sibling out, but not two. He wants to do this because he knows that he will never get a mortgage as he has no intention of ever coming off his depression/illness/sickness (whatever it is called) benefit and he will have to rent. Whereas I am offering to buy both of them out now when the house is paid off for. Work would also interfere with his video game playing time.

Now, he has lived in the house for ~10 years, but the bills come in my partners name, so she could claim that she has been there for that period too. Just in case there are some grounds for some sort of a squatters claim.

My partner often wakes up in the middle the night crying after her mother and the freeloader is beginning to make life really difficult for her. Trouble is when I am working (doing MSc at the minute) I often travel a lot and could be out of the country for a week or two, so I can't have my partner living with this pathetic excuse of a man as all the stress of this situation is not helping her. To the point that she is saying that she is considering things that I can't even imagine, and if any harm ever came to her as a result of this a**hole, I would never forgive him.

We intend to seek legal advice as soon as the mortgage is cleared, but is there any way we can get him out legally as I know he can't just be evicted? As much as I would just love to...

Or if he temporarily gets his way and gets to remain in the house and we move out, how can we legally start making him pay rent.


Thank you.

zef

Hi OP , I think you need a good lawyer to get advice on all your options asap.
There is a law- and I hope it's not applicable in your case, whereby a person with an interest in a property for 12 years may be allowed stay there in certain circumstances. Good luck.

PhoenixParker

As Zef said, you need a good lawyer ASAP.

Was the mother listed as an owner of the property or was she simply resident there?

chainsawpaddy

Thanks for the replies.

Phoenix: Yes we intend to contact a solicitor, just waiting to have the mortgage cleared first. Or there an advantage in doing it now?

No, their mother was not listed as an owner. Only my partner and the decent brother who does not reside there was.

Zef: What do you mean by "with an interest in a property". Under what conditions would this law not apply, other that having a tenancy agreement?

drunkmonkey

Also talk to an accountant, are you looking to buy the house under market value as if so there's financial implications and the difference between purchase price and market value could be classed as taxable depending on value.

Personally I'd leave it between the sister and her two brothers to sort out and come to an agreement between themselves. Your digging at one of the brothers might come back to bite you, let them agree amoungst themselves without outside interference from you.

The brother living there may have rights to stay there and it might be very hard to get him to move without going through the courts and then it might take years.

goldenhoarde

Don't wait consult a solicitor the sooner the better.

As the house is not in his name I would presume that the 2 owners can sell it but as the mother was paying the mortgage this may implications which a solicitor can help understand. did the mother leave a will? Also the length of time he is residing there may have implications (paying rent or not!)

Get the house valued by 3 estate agents and then take the average and divide by 3 and this is what needs to be paid to each sibling. This is the mothers wishes to divide it up

Again this is not legal advice so I'd engage a solicitor and get your partner to see a GP.

TeaBagMania

They way I read it, your partner and her brother purchased the house together, and it sounds like your partner made the majority of the mortgage payments? How does the freeloading brother have any claim what so ever? Especially to a third share in the house.

Id break my foot off in his ass as I kicked him to the curb

chainsawpaddy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Also talk to an accountant, are you looking to buy the house under market value as if so there's financial implications and the difference between purchase price and market value could be classed as taxable depending on value.

Personally I'd leave it between the sister and her two brothers to sort out and come to an agreement between themselves. Your digging at one of the brothers might come back to bite you, let them agree amoungst themselves without outside interference from you.

The brother living there may have rights to stay there and it might be very hard to get him to move without going through the courts and then it might take years.

Thanks for the reply. I understand where you are coming from and I have remained well and truly out of it, until now. It's me who is attempting to buy out the two brothers, so I feel that I have a bit of a say.

I will take your advice regarding the accountant on board, but the freeloader will not accept a penny less than a third of the market value, if at all. This isn't the problem, the problem is getting him out.

Also the house has dropped in value by ~40% and it will never see the price it was bought for. It's been valued by two independent auctioneers in recent weeks, hence the freeloaders intention to sell the property. He's just a spiteful person.

I know that it is possible that he may have certain rights and this is what I'm afraid of. But again he has no legal stake in the house.

chainsawpaddy

TeaBagMania wrote: »

They way I read it, your partner and her brother purchased the house together, and it sounds like your partner made the majority of the mortgage payments? How does the freeloading brother have any claim what so ever? Especially to a third share in the house.

Id break my foot off in his ass as I kicked him to the curb

Wish I could, but he was always mammy's pet and it was their mothers wishes that the house be left to all three. Their mother made ALL the mortgage payments until her passing, but the freeloader was the only one living there until June of last year, almost ten years.

Right now my partner is paying the mortgage and the freeloader is scraping together his half of the mortgage monthly, and doing lots of moaning in the process that he can't afford to. But the mortgage will be cleared in the coming months, so thats his incentive for hanging in there.

PhoenixParker

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

Phoenix: Yes we intend to contact a solicitor, just waiting to have the mortgage cleared first. Or there an advantage in doing it now?

I would, simply because you need to know where you stand and what to do. Gathering documents and keeping records now could really speed up the process later.

This is not an inherited house though. If your partner's mother wasn't an owner then the house isn't part of her estate. I'd stop thinking of it that way and start thinking of the 1/3rd share as a gift to bad brother.

stoplooklisten

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

Wish I could, but he was always mammy's pet and it was their mothers wishes that the house be left to all three. Their mother made ALL the mortgage payments until her passing, but the freeloader was the only one living there until June of last year, almost ten years.

Right now my partner is paying the mortgage and the freeloader is scraping together his half of the mortgage monthly, and doing lots of moaning in the process that he can't afford to. But the mortgage will be cleared in the coming months, so thats his incentive for hanging in there.

so he is paying half the mortgage?

drunkmonkey

He might not accept a 1/3 when he figures out it will effect his dole. It could be cut off. An accountant is what you need. If your after a house this might not be the one to go for, seen something like this happen before, this will take years without agreement.
Brother on the dole is better off with house than cash lump sum I'd say. It might be simple though your partner and her brother may just have to turf him out, solicitor will advise.

Gatling

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

Right now my partner is paying the mortgage and the freeloader is scraping together his half of the mortgage monthly, and doing lots of moaning in the process that he can't afford to.

So this apparent freeloader is paying towards the monthly mortage

chainsawpaddy

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

Wish I could, but he was always mammy's pet and it was their mothers wishes that the house be left to all three. Their mother made ALL the mortgage payments until her passing, but the freeloader was the only one living there until June of last year, almost ten years.

Right now my partner is paying the mortgage and the freeloader is scraping together his half of the mortgage monthly, and doing lots of moaning in the process that he can't afford to. But the mortgage will be cleared in the coming months, so thats his incentive for hanging in there.

This doesn't make sense - how is your partner paying the mortgage and the freeloader paying half? Is your partner paying half only?

chainsawpaddy

goldenhoarde wrote: »

Don't wait consult a solicitor the sooner the better.

As the house is not in his name I would presume that the 2 owners can sell it but as the mother was paying the mortgage this may implications which a solicitor can help understand. did the mother leave a will? Also the length of time he is residing there may have implications (paying rent or not!)

Get the house valued by 3 estate agents and then take the average and divide by 3 and this is what needs to be paid to each sibling. This is the mothers wishes to divide it up

Again this is not legal advice so I'd engage a solicitor and get your partner to see a GP.

The other brother is not too pushed if the house is sold or whether his share is bought out, by either.

The house has been valued in the last month by two auctioneers and that is the price I was willing to pay them. We may just have to sell it on. No there was no will

I'm in the process of trying to get her to see someone, thank you for your concern.

GarIT

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

Wish I could, but he was always mammy's pet and it was their mothers wishes that the house be left to all three. Their mother made ALL the mortgage payments until her passing, but the freeloader was the only one living there until June of last year, almost ten years.

Right now my partner is paying the mortgage and the freeloader is scraping together his half of the mortgage monthly, and doing lots of moaning in the process that he can't afford to. But the mortgage will be cleared in the coming months, so thats his incentive for hanging in there.

You've made a terrible mistake here, once you let him make a mortgage payment he has a claim to the house.

chainsawpaddy

Deleted User wrote: »

This doesn't make sense - how is your partner paying the mortgage and the freeloader paying half? Is your partner paying half only?

Sorry yes. Since their mother passed, those in the house (freeloader and my partner) are paying the mortgage. But we have decided that she will be moving out soon.

Trouble is, he's not in a position to pay the full amount of the mortgage on his own and could end up missing payments. Also, as the mortgage is in my partner and the other brothers name, he may end up giving them bad credit.

chainsawpaddy

GarIT wrote: »

You've made a terrible mistake here, once you let him make a mortgage payment he has a claim to the house.

He just gives cash monthly, no record. Mortgage comes out of the other brothers account.

jon1981

So what is the proposal for the "sick freeloader" ... get out on the street? It seems your partner and the "decent" brother have made a decent life for themselves and younger sibling is struggling too life.

While I get your point that the house was to be split equally (i'd be annoyed too), it sounds like this brother doesn't have much hope right now of standing on his own 2 feet? I'd feel rather guilty if he went off the rails.

gctest50

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

Hello,

I would greatly appreciate any advise on the following matter.

My partner and one of her brothers own a house which was bought about 10 years ago. It was bought as a retirement home for their mother and the mortgage was in my partners and her brothers name, as their mother could not get one. Their mother did not live in the house for most of this time, but she paid for the mortgage since the beginning, although a different son lived in the house rent free from the beginning (10 years). He paid no rent and caused a tremendous amount of stress on his mother having to pay the mortgage every month when their business went down hill after the crash.

When they lost the family business their mother became ill and moved into her house in June of last year (2015), along with my partner as her mothers carer. The freeloading son in the house made life very difficult for the both of them. As if he felt the house was his and they were intruding.

Things were made even worse when their mother was diagnosed with cancer and died within two months (September), leaving my partner and the freeloading son in the house together. He has not worked in years (ever really) and is on the dole. He has a daughter and his on/off partner is also on the dole.

It was their mothers wishes that the house be left to the three of them, as the mortgage will be cleared in the coming months. However the house is in my partners and a different brothers name, therefore legally it will belong to them and not the freeloading brother. But their is a moral obligation to honour the mothers wishes.

Initially it was the intention that the house be sold and split between the three. My dilemma is my partner has decided that she does not want her mothers house to be sold after slaving to pay for it for a decade, so I propositioned the working decent brother and offered him X amount for his third [although he legally has 50% ownership] and he agreed. I had intended to just make an offer to the freeloading brother and had assumed that he would accept the offer, but it hasn't worked out that way. When the freeloading brother found out I was intending to buy out the other brother he caused a strop and said he wanted to buy him out instead.

They will have some money coming to them and he may have enough to buy one sibling out, but not two. He wants to do this because he knows that he will never get a mortgage as he has no intention of ever coming off his depression/illness/sickness (whatever it is called) benefit and he will have to rent. Whereas I am offering to buy both of them out now when the house is paid off for. Work would also interfere with his video game playing time.

Now, he has lived in the house for ~10 years, but the bills come in my partners name, so she could claim that she has been there for that period too. Just in case there are some grounds for some sort of a squatters claim.

My partner often wakes up in the middle the night crying after her mother and the freeloader is beginning to make life really difficult for her. Trouble is when I am working (doing MSc at the minute) I often travel a lot and could be out of the country for a week or two, so I can't have my partner living with this pathetic excuse of a man as all the stress of this situation is not helping her. To the point that she is saying that she is considering things that I can't even imagine, and if any harm ever came to her as a result of this a**hole, I would never forgive him.

We intend to seek legal advice as soon as the mortgage is cleared, but is there any way we can get him out legally as I know he can't just be evicted? As much as I would just love to...

Or if he temporarily gets his way and gets to remain in the house and we move out, how can we legally start making him pay rent.


Thank you.

You need to go see a real, live, living solicitor

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

Now, he has lived in the house for ~10 years, but the bills come in my partners name, so she could claim that she has been there for that period too.

Fraud. You're planning it.

Whereas I am offering to buy both of them out now when the house is paid off for.

...so I propositioned the working decent brother and offered him X amount for his third [although he legally has 50% ownership] and he agreed.

One way of getting a cheap house i suppose

Basically only worth the paper it's written on, he may have only said he agreed so as not to be stressing you since :

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

(doing MSc at the minute)

Mrs OBumble

Who is paying for the insurance on the house now? It should be the owners. In a recent case in Galway, being able to prove that he had insured the house was how an owner stopped an adverse-possession claim.

OP, your partner and good-brother need both tax and legal advice. There may be tax-implications associated with the gifts (ie mortgage payments) that the mother made to them, as well as with the free accommodation provider to other-brother.

But you should also look into the implications that receiving a lump of cash would have on other-brother's welfare payment. Most of these are asset tested. Make sure that other-brother does some thinking about this, too. It may soften his cough considerably.

PhoenixParker

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

He just gives cash monthly, no record. Mortgage comes out of the other brothers account.

So he's not paying the mortgage, he's paying rent.

You seriously need to reframe how you think about this whole situation to the actual legal situation, not how you've always thought about it.

Your partner and her GB own 50% each of the house.
In line with their mothers wishes they want to give 1/3rd of their share to their BB in the form of either cash or a share in the house.

BB is currently (and has for a long time been) a tenant in the house.
Your partner is currently an owner occupier.

When you're talking about buying the house, you need to talk only to GB. What GB does with his share of the money (i.e. give 1/3rd of it to BB) is GB's business.

You need to talk to a solicitor urgently about an eviction for BB and what your rights are if GB decides he wants to sell his 50% to BB. BB has no role in the sale of the house unless it's as a purchaser.

chainsawpaddy

jon1981 wrote: »

So what is the proposal for the "sick freeloader" ... get out on the street? It seems your partner and the "decent" brother have made a decent life for themselves and younger sibling is struggling too life.

While I get your point that the house was to be split equally (i'd be annoyed too), it sounds like this brother doesn't have much hope right now of standing on his own 2 feet? I'd feel rather guilty if he went off the rails.

For a start, he's not the youngest and is 36 years of age with a child he couldn't care if he ever saw. He has never had to buy a car for himself, never had to pay for insurance, tax, etc. and never had a full-time job. Ever.

He draws the dole and braggs to me when he goes up to his dole meetings that his claim keeps coming because he tells them he's 'depressed'.

Now, all of a sudden because his mother passed, he's got to pay for things. Putting him on the street for a night or two might not do him any harm. Might be of benefit, and help he realise how fortunate he was growing up.

rawn

But if the partner that is currently living in the house with the freeloader owns the house, does that not make him a licensee with no tenancy rights at all?

stoplooklisten

chainsawpaddy wrote: »

For a start, he's not the youngest and is 36 years of age with a child he couldn't care if he ever saw. He has never had to buy a car for himself, never had to pay for insurance, tax, etc. and never had a full-time job. Ever.

He draws the dole and braggs to me when he goes up to his dole meetings that his claim keeps coming because he tells them he's 'depressed'.

Now, all of a sudden because his mother passed, he's got to pay for things. Putting him on the street for a night or two might not do him any harm. Might be of benefit, and help he realise how fortunate he was growing up.

it's sounds like you're going to teach him a lesson. All of this is irrelevant to you.

Kristopherus

OP, I cannot stress enough that you have to engage a solicitor NOW. The freeloader can claim adverse possession after 12 yrs, and there won't be a thing you can do about it.

Gatling

Kristopherus wrote: »

OP, I cannot stress enough that you have to engage a solicitor NOW. The freeloader can claim adverse possession after 12 yrs, and there won't be a thing you can do about it.

I'd be more worried about an expensive protracted legal battle may cost the the op partner more than its worth,

When it comes to inheritance it always gets messy when 3rd and 4th parties get involved

Thoie

Suggestions which you can take or leave:

• Your partner needs serious legal advice immediately. Not next week, not when the mortgage is magically paid off, immediately.
• You need to keep your nose out of things, for everyone's sake. This is both for legal reasons, and for future family harmony. Don't be going around making offers to people, don't talk to a solicitor on her behalf.
• Offer her love and support.
• Let her know that if she'd like to buy out the other two brothers, you can help financially and would support that decision, but leave the decision up to her. If you're going to buy out the brothers, get your own independent legal advice, separate from hers, as well.
• Stop thinking about whatever the brother you don't like does/doesn't have or do. It's not your financial concern. I understand his attitude bugs you, but that's irrelevant at the moment.
• No matter who's saying what about whom at the moment, never forget that blood is thicker than water.

drunkmonkey

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Your partner and her GB own 50% each of the house.
In line with their mothers wishes they want to give 1/3rd of their share to their BB in the form of either cash or a share in the house.

But they never paid for the house, the mother paid for the house. Yes there names are on the mortgage but the mother paid for it. This is going to get complicated. If it wasn't the mothers house how is she dictating what's happening to it after she's left, it's her house.

chainsawpaddy

PhoenixParker wrote: »

So he's not paying the mortgage, he's paying rent.

You seriously need to reframe how you think about this whole situation to the actual legal situation, not how you've always thought about it.

Your partner and her GB own 50% each of the house.
In line with their mothers wishes they want to give 1/3rd of their share to their BB in the form of either cash or a share in the house.

BB is currently (and has for a long time been) a tenant in the house.
Your partner is currently an owner occupier.

When you're talking about buying the house, you need to talk only to GB. What GB does with his share of the money (i.e. give 1/3rd of it to BB) is GB's business.

You need to talk to a solicitor urgently about an eviction for BB and what your rights are if GB decides he wants to sell his 50% to BB. BB has no role in the sale of the house unless it's as a purchaser.

You're right, my views are conflicted because it's a personal matter.

"BB is currently (and has for a long time been) a tenant in the house."
Does it matter that until their mothers passing (September 2015) that he was not paying anything for 9-10 years in the property?

"your rights are if GB decides he wants to sell his 50% to BB"
GB can't surely do this if my partner does not agree to it, can he? At worst, they'll agree to split the share, with GB and my partner buying BB out.

"You need to talk to a solicitor urgently about an eviction for BB"
This is complicated, I'm just an outsider. Granted I'm looking to buy the two brothers out, but only because this is what my partner wants.

chainsawpaddy

rawn wrote: »

But if the partner that is currently living in the house with the freeloader owns the house, does that not make him a licensee with no tenancy rights at all?

What does this mean?