England V Ireland [Match Thread] 27th Feb KO 16:50 Twickenham

sydthebeat

Venue: Twickenham
Date: 27 February 2016 Kick-off: 16:50 GMT
Coverage: Watch live on RTE 2, ITV






Ireland

So, where exactly is Irish rugby at the moment?

Are we in the clutches of a rigid, conservative, xenophobic coach that rules by fear? Fear of making a mistake or an offload that doesn’t stick? Some would have you believe this, some found in this forum and others in the media. Or are we in the hands of that pragmatic, clinical, nurturing coach that we all saw at Leinster in their zenith? Like everything in this life, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
We are 2 years and four months into Schmidt’s tenure and not many can argue with any degree of confidence that its hasn’t been successful. Our opponents tomorrow can only dream of the silverware accrued in that time, and rue the defensive errors which led to them not reaching the requisite points difference that won have won them the last 2 six nations championships.
Schmidt has, rightly in my opinion, been accused of being too loyal to some players at the expense of others. I still think the treatment of Jackson and Cave, in particular, during the world cup, was unfair in the light of the injury spectrum and subsequence performance against Argentina last October. However on Saturday he will be handing two players their starting debuts and another from the bench. Our starting centre pairing of Stuart McClosky and Robbie Henshaw is a pairing most fans have wanted to see since the outset of the competition and an exciting performance in Twickenham will leave Schmidt with some very tough choices to make for the last two games, focusing mainly on the 15 shirt. Josh Van der Flier is handed an incredible debut opportunity at openside and will be severely tested against a very powerful english back row. Ireland are arguably playing two very proficient open sides in CJ and JVDF while England are arguably playing two very proficient blind sides in Haskell and Robshaw. This will lead to Ireland trying to play an expansive game whereas England will keep it tight and forward orientated.

England

England currently are two for two in the competition, albeit against the two weakest teams. They needed their old guard to overcome a spirited if ultimately brainless Scotland in the first game, with Kruis’ try being the ultimate divider between the teams. Against Italy they again were under pressure for the whole first half until the Italians imploded and allowed Joseph probably the easiest hat trick he’ll ever score… an intercept on the Italian 22, a pickup 1 meter out from a grubber and the last from a turnover and overlap. It highlights however how deadly he is and with a record of 8 tries in 18 games hes on track to be a main stay in that England team during Jones’ reign. Jones was very forceful this week to protect JJ from media speculation that hes under severe pressure for his 13 jersey from Elliot Daly, who will make his debut from the bench tomorrow. The continuous question for English fans is the selection of Farrell at 12. From the outside it seems to be to have Farrells metronomic goal kicking on the field as Ford can be flighty and lack the distance of Farrell. Also, Ford seems to be going through a bit a difficult second season after his breakthrough last year. Perhaps the presence of Farrell outside him is not confidence inspiring and one would think that, should Ford solidify his performances, Farrell will find himself over taken by either Tuilagi or Slade at 12 going forward.

The biggest call for Jones is the selection of Maro Itoje in the second row. Simply put Itoje is a beast of a player. His emergence onto the international stage began at the 2014 U20s six nations where he scored a try in every game and was named England’s player of the tournament. He followed that up with captaining England to win the Junior world cup later that year. Having learnt his trade under Steve Borthwick at Saracens, and now at England, Itoje is an abrasive powerful but most importantly clever player. Playing mainly in the row, he can also be quite comfortable at 7, and from him you get quick ruck ball, security of possession but also a powerful intelligent ball carrier. I fully expect him to have the most meters / carries for all the locks in this game.

Where the game will be won and lost.



I think this will be quite simple and obvious. The game will be won and lost at the set piece. Nathan white makes way for Mike Ross to be our saviour after our creaking scrum was directly responsible for the welsh draw and the French loss. Its probably most unfair to be putting such expectation on Ross, at 36 years of age, but if he does nothing around the pitch but gives us scrum parity it will be enough to justify his call up. He knows Marler very well at this stage and will know what to expect of the canny loose head.



I expect Ireland to make significant gains in the line out. Kruis and Itoje are 6’ 6” and 6’ 5” respectively, both smaller than Big Dev and Donnacha Ryan. Add to that CJ and Jamie we definitely should have enough firepower here to secure our own throws and pressure theirs. Expect to see some invention from England here and Mike Ross will need to be alert in the channel for short ones.

Around the fringes England are better than most. They employ the ‘leech’ approach to ball carrying leading to a narrow but effective method to eke out hard yards, and if you find them knocking on your door 5 meters out more often than not they get over the line due to Irelands only option here is to blitz the ball carrier behind the gain line and that is one of the reasons is suspect Josh Van der Flier gets the call up ahead of Tommy O Donnell. JVDF is an efficient proponent of the chop tackle, leading to him being dubbed ‘chopper’ by his Leinster team mates.

Players to watch

Im going for two debutants here, Itoje and McClosky.


Can McClosky become the player Ireland have been lacking for the last 2 years? If so, can he and Henshaw create an attack minded partnership which Ireland have certainly been lacking since the demise of the Darcy / BOD symbiosis?


Prediction

England under Jones havent been tested yet. This will be Eddies first top level game and you can be sure he will be prepared for it... but will his players?
Regardless of our championship wins of the last two years, the record books show us having won only once in the last six attempts against England since august 2011.
Injuries will always have an impact on how games go and we really are one injury away from being very stretched at pivotal positions. England have interchangeable Care and Youngs and Farrell and Ford. Ireland dont have this. For all our versatility on the bench, Murray to Reddan is a step down, Sexton to Madigan is a step down. In injury to either significantly weakens us, and Johnny hardly ever does the full 80 anymore. If we can keep these two on the pitch for the whole game id give us a good chance.

Will England crumble under pressure is the big unknown? have we a mobile enough tight five to create this pressure? In Jack McGrath we have the Irish player of the competition so far, but we will need Cian Healy circa 2011 explode from the bench on 65mins.

To me too many 'ifs' for Ireland unfortunately so I predict an English win. the margin of which will depend on our personnel left standing after 80.

England by 6


oh.... and expect england to kick, kick and kickiddy kick kick kick....

SuprSi

Great job syd, England by 12 I feel, or at least that's what I went with in the pool in work. Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing some of the next generation playing.

pc7

Smashing write up, best of 6n so far (in my humbler)

swiwi_

Hmmm, one of the shorter previews I've seen in recent times :P

Excellent work syd.

I agree that England will try and do what they always do at Twickenham and scrum teams into the ground. When that doesn't work, and their one-off big units (Vunipola etc) don't make easy yards, they can run out of ideas.

I think Farrell should start at 10, little-admired on this forum but in recent times in better form than Ford IMO. I don't think the 2 playmakers combination works for them. England's loss is Ireland's gain.

It will be uncomfortable for Schmidt if McCloskey has a blinder
a) Everyone will ask why he didn't start from game 1 and
b) He will have to decide what to do for the next game, as you alluded to

If he has a middling to poor game, Schmidt's defenders might feel smug...but Ireland will have probably lost.

Finally, if Sexton goes off in the first half, it's curtains for Ireland I would think.

Our sponsor is one more than their sponsor.

Writing's on the wall!

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

Our sponsor is one more than their sponsor.

Writing's on the wall!

Actually, it's on the jerseys... :P

Noopti

Looking forward to the game, but expect England to win by 5-7 points.

If we manage to really disrupt their ruck, and put massive pressure on Ford then it could become very interesting indeed.

CatFromHue

Ireland will win this and could possibly even win it well

Triboro

Ireland by 3.
Johnny motm.
Up yours Eddie.

English Lurker

Deleted User wrote: »

Our sponsor is one more than their sponsor.

Writing's on the wall!

Zzippy wrote: »

Actually, it's on the jerseys... :P

Actually, it's probably on the wall as well as the jerseys...

Zzippy

English Lurker wrote: »

Actually, it's probably on the wall as well as the jerseys...

I was being facetious, but that's just pedantic!

Pink Fairy

Zzippy wrote: »

I was being facetious, but that's just pedantic!

If England lose by 20 it'll be faeces on the wall !

English Lurker

Zzippy wrote: »

I was being facetious, but that's just pedantic!

Someone had to do it! Don't pretend that isn't so - I've lurked here long enough to know that by now

Yeah_Right

Zzippy wrote: »

I was being facetious, but that's just pedantic!

But that's allowed. As long as he isn't a ****ing grammar nazi as well

Ardillaun

I wonder about Trimble these days. Van den Heever flew by him for that Munster try.

To JS I would say, delegate the tackles as much as possible. At least don't go looking for them.

Hippo

Really looking forward to seeing McCloskey in action at this level

UnknownEntity

Looking forward to seeing Van Der Flier. If he can keep his work rate high like he does with Leinster then he will make a huge difference to the game.

postitnote

Delighted that McCloskey is getting a start tomorrow. All the best to the three debutants. What a baptism of fire to be playing at twickenham!!

As an Ulster fan, I've enjoyed watching him tear through defences.

Admittedly I've not watched enough Connacht and Lenister matches to know much about the other two, but I trust the judgement of those here who are excited to see them play.

It's always great to see young, new players coming through.

On paper I think it's England's to win. But I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

My heart says Ireland by 13.

I may have a faulty heart.

English Lurker

To be more serious...

I think my top five worries for England would be:

1) You might stop Vunipola every time.

I bet that's what JvdF has been picked for if he's a chop tackle specialist. He pretty much is England's go forwards, although maybe Itoje will help there. If he can't make ground, then England's chances of forcing an up-tempo game where we can induce fatigue and create mismatches withers.

2) The breakdown.

I'm super excited to see Itoje get a start, but Launchbury has been absolutely critical to England's breakdown since, well, forever. Itoje clears a ruck well, but does he have the same instincts? Haskell and Robshaw can hit a ruck hard but their instincts are not the sharpest. Playing it tight will help, but I can see England getting well beaten here and that creates a huge problem.

3) Your midfield's an awful lot more physical than ours

Every Irish midfielder is capable of running straight through their opposite number - a fact made worse by the fact they've all got the intelligence and feet to go for the weak shoulder instead. If they get enough space to attack the English midfield in one on one situations, they will go through every time if the English midfield goes high. If Ireland start getting any sort of platform, the physical mismatch could make quite a difference. Also means if Vunipola fails to motor, there's not a lot of other options.

4) England's back three/Ford don't cope with the bomb

It's coming, we all know it, and I don't know whether an out of form Mike Brown is going to do that great with it. Nowell and Watson have good games and bad games there. And, of course, we like to hide George Ford back there, but Thunor and Woden help him if he's left to take one isolated against two Irish chasers... England will have to work very hard to support each other.

5) Farrell keeps kicking like crap

His statistics from the opening two rounds are very ropey. The opening two rounds suggest a low scoring game is on the cards; a missed kick could be the difference. It will be a significant turn-up in business if he only misses one.

Incidentally, the Ford/Farrell thing is the one thing where I'd markedly disagree with Sydthebeat's write up. Ford has been the better goal kicker for the last two seasons; he's also the guy who's at risk from Tuilagi coming back fit, as it seems likely that Farrell will be moved to 10 when that happens, rightly or wrongly. Ok, wrongly. I also don't see them as interchangeable either, as they want very different things from their backlines and forwards (imo) and should one of them go off injured, England have a slight issue as, to the best of my knowledge, nobody in the England backs (other than Farrell) has started a Premiership game at 12 and none of them would seem to possess the aptitude.

Also, mildly pedantic, but I don't think Itoje has ever played 7 (6 yes, and could pass for a 7 in England) and has extremely long arms which makes his height misleading from a lineout point of view.

stephen_n

Firstly, superb write up well done OP.

I don't know exactly why but I think we are going to win this. On paper England have a stronger team but unless they completely muller us in the scrums I can't see them winning the battle on the ground. I can't help thinking of SOB's comment about loving playing with VDF, "he'll chop them down all day long and I can get in over them", hopefully Stander or Heaslip will capitalise in the same way. Our line out should hold fine, we might even steal some of theirs too. I'm exited to see what Henshaw can do running off McCloskey but at the same time I'm hoping McCloskey can step up in defence. Joes comments would suggest that's what's been keeping him out till now. Also it's a big step up for Henshaw to control the 13 channel as well as Payne. Really looking forward to this game though.

sydthebeat

Fair points, I was working off memory on itoje and his younger days, but yeah after some googling he's nearly almost always played 6 when flanking. He has the attributes though but perhaps not the top level speed for an international 7.

When I refer to Ford and Farrell as interchangeable I mean there's not much difference in level between them, say when compared to sexton to Madigan. Ford I think is a better out half than Farrell, but isn't going through a good time right now.....

Scythica

I feel like we have a decent chance of surprising ourselves and performing very well tbh.

And if we do, I think Heaslip will have the game of his life. He will have to do so many things to help cover for the inevitable 'wrong options' VDF and to a lesser extent CJ will have. Really excited to see them as a unit play together though!!

Not the best way of explaining it but I hope you get what I mean!

Gone all out in fantasy, McCloskey straight in, come on!

English Lurker

sydthebeat wrote: »

Fair points, I was working off memory on itoje and his younger days, but yeah after some googling he's nearly almost always played 6 when flanking. He has the attributes though but perhaps not the top level speed for an international 7.

When I refer to Ford and Farrell as interchangeable I mean there's not much difference in level between them, say when compared to sexton to Madigan. Ford I think is a better out half than Farrell, but isn't going through a good time right now.....

With you now on the last point. Yeah, given Ford's current form, they're about even.

I'd trade the 9/10 FH with the 7/10 back up for the two 8/10 FHs though, injury risk and all (ratings used to make the point, not necessarily reflective of exact reality, should not be used when driving or pregnant).

Was out at the pub after work and I had a startling, earth shattering realisation.

I'm completely out of breath having ran most of the way home rather than wait for public transport. I don't know if anyone on here has realised this, or even if Joe has been made aware, but were sending Heaslip out there against the English tomorrow. Alone. Without Tommy O'Donnell.

If anyone at all has any ties to the IRFU or has a number for Joe, can someone please, please take it upon themselves to get in touch and let them know. Heaslip is going to get absolutely destroyed out there without Tommy, it will be worse than the first half of Rocky 3.

I've been behind Joe up until now, but putting a player at risk like this because he doesn't like being portrayed as conservative is completely knee jerk and in reality - dangerous.

It's all fun and games until Eddie Jones is talking about Heaslip's parents next week.

#outrage.

vapor trails

If you look at the english back row, JVDF and CJ should be able to readily outpace the english trio of Haskell (Gym Monkey) Robshaw (Captain no posts) and Vunipola (Wobble Bum). It really should play into our hands if the game is wide and expansive.

KingBrian2

Ireland will be up for it. Lets hope it is a good game and the best team wins. The best being Ireland of course. I know England have the stronger team here only their are still questions for the new coach to answer.

vapor trails

vapor trails wrote: »

If you look at the english back row, JVDF and CJ should be able to readily outpace the english trio of Haskell (Gym Monkey) Robshaw (Captain no posts) and Vunipola (Wobble Bum). It really should play into our hands if the game is wide and expansive.

Both their second rows are superbly mobile.

NIMAN

England -10 a good bet.:(

andymx11

Whats McCloskey's scoring record like this season? Just curious how fair his 15/2 price is!

Hagz

3 tries in 18 appearances this season.

andymx11

Hagz wrote: »

3 tries in 18 appearances this season.

I'd prefer 15/1 so!!

astonaidan

If Zebo was starting instead of Kearney and Marmion and Jackson were on the bench that is the only way Id have been happier, VDF starting over TOD is something that excites me, give youth a run is the way forward, cant start them all at the same time, so happy we should see 3 debutante tomorrow

ionadnapokot

NIMAN wrote: »

England -10 a good bet.:(

Zzzzz.....had nice dream....Ireland win.
Farrell and Vdf featured allot. But I don't know at what!
Zeebs scored a try....Zzzzzzzzz

NIMAN

I really hope you're right.

ionadnapokot

NIMAN wrote: »

I really hope you're right.

Vote Greens!

stephen_n

astonaidan wrote: »

If Zebo was starting instead of Kearney and Marmion and Jackson were on the bench http://youtu.be/ZdUpFKe4Vzk is the only way Id have been happier, VDF starting over TOD is something that excites me, give youth a run is the way forward, cant start them all at the same time, so happy we should see 3 debutante tomorrow

The Zebo for Kearney thing I just don't understand at all. You want to put an ok winger who has been in **** form in at fullback. Instead of a proven top quality international fullback, who's form isn't bad except some of his attacking play not being as exciting as people would like? Zebos positional play was badly exposed against the Welsh and his kick chase for Ireland when he has played has been shambolic. What ever about Payne or Henshaw, Zebo isn't fit to clean Kearneys boots as a fullback.

Pink Fairy

Not really bothered about Zebo playing fullback as it's a waste of his talent, but Kearney was shocking at times in the last international and I for one would love to see Payne get a game or 2 at fullback during this 6n

irishbucsfan

How have people forgotten Zebo's performance in the first half against Wales? I supported him starting but he looked so inept and unsure of himself, he is out of his depth back there at international level. At least we know Kearney was coming back from injury and we know from the world cup what he can do. I wouldn't mind looking at Payne, although I'd prefer to look at Henshaw, but Zebo is surely done as a 15 at this level.

Pink Fairy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How have people forgotten Zebo's performance in the first half against Wales? I supported him starting but he looked so inept and unsure of himself, he is out of his depth back there at international level. At least we know Kearney was coming back from injury and we know from the world cup what he can do. I wouldn't mind looking at Payne, although I'd prefer to look at Henshaw, but Zebo is surely done as a 15 at this level.

At least we also know that Zebo was hurt in the 8th minute of his game and hasn't played since
That most likely affected his game too. But again, I say this, having Zebo at fullback is a waste. He's a winger and a fine one at that

calico77

Pink Fairy wrote: »

At least we also know that Zebo was hurt in the 8th minute of his game and hasn't played since
That most likely affected his game too. But again, I say this, having Zebo at fullback is a waste. He's a winger and a fine one at that

Jared payne hurt his hamstring in paris and played an entire half of international rugby and it didnt affect his performance. So zebo took a knock. Doesnt explain his poor defensive performance.

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

At least we also know that Zebo was hurt in the 8th minute of his game and hasn't played since
That most likely affected his game too. But again, I say this, having Zebo at fullback is a waste. He's a winger and a fine one at that

Payne will play 13 for us when available, that's fairly certain.

Until he's given a chance at 15 we'll keep going with this guy

Pink Fairy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Payne will play 13 for us when available, that's fairly certain.

Until he's given a chance at 15 we'll keep going with this guy

I don't think it is certain, in fact I hope it's not.
I want to see Stu and Henshaw ripping up trees today, tgye both offer more as attacking centres, the only question is can they compliment each other defensively

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Payne will play 13 for us when available, that's fairly certain.

Until he's given a chance at 15 we'll keep going with this guy

If Henshaw and McCloskey go really well today in attack and defence then they will be the guys in possession. Payne won't necessarily walk straight back in at 13. Unusually for an Ulster fan I like him at 13....for Ireland...because it suits the way Ireland play...but we aren't talking about BOD here.

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

If Henshaw and McCloskey go really well today in attack and defence then they will be the guys in possession. Payne won't necessarily walk straight back in at 13. Unusually for an Ulster fan I like him at 13....for Ireland...because it suits the way Ireland play...but we aren't talking about BOD here.

I find it hard to believe Payne won't be back starting at 13 for Ireland myself, but I do hope Henshaw plays well

Scythica

We used to have D'arcyDrico who could play left right vice versa.

Maybe Joes master plan is to creat a 12 13 15 axis who are all interchangable depending on the set plays :pac:

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I find it hard to believe Payne won't be back starting at 13 for Ireland myself, but I do hope Henshaw plays well

You may well be right but we'll see how the centre combo go today anyway.

Thinking ahead to the summer McCloskey's size and power would come in very handy in South Africa so hopefully he adapts well to test rugby.

The Rape of Lucretia

Scythica wrote: »

We used to have D'arcyDrico who could play left right vice versa.

Maybe Joes master plan is to creat a 12 13 15 axis who are all interchangable depending on the set plays :pac:

Joe's masterplan is to create an 11,12,13,14,15 axis who are all interchangeable. Rob is the ideal template in his mind for this player. Earlsie, Fitz, Zebo, and the likes dont really fit into this plan unless in extremis.

stephen_n

bilston wrote: »

You may well be right but we'll see how the centre combo go today anyway.

Thinking ahead to the summer McCloskey's size and power would come in very handy in South Africa so hopefully he adapts well to test rugby.

Think Joe pretty much emphasised how important defence is to him in the Centre, when talking about McCloskeys inclusion the other day. I'd say if McCloskey goes well today Payne will go back in at 13 and we might see RK under pressure from Henshaw.

awec

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Was out at the pub after work and I had a startling, earth shattering realisation.

I'm completely out of breath having ran most of the way home rather than wait for public transport. I don't know if anyone on here has realised this, or even if Joe has been made aware, but were sending Heaslip out there against the English tomorrow. Alone. Without Tommy O'Donnell.

If anyone at all has any ties to the IRFU or has a number for Joe, can someone please, please take it upon themselves to get in touch and let them know. Heaslip is going to get absolutely destroyed out there without Tommy, it will be worse than the first half of Rocky 3.

I've been behind Joe up until now, but putting a player at risk like this because he doesn't like being portrayed as conservative is completely knee jerk and in reality - dangerous.

It's all fun and games until Eddie Jones is talking about Heaslip's parents next week.

#outrage.

what's the point of this post venjur? Are you looking for a reaction?

You've been warned about sarcastic posts like this before. Stop doing it please before you get yourself banned.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I'm quite excited about this game.

I don't know what result I expect. I know we're without a few important players but looking at the team on paper I'd still think it's a pretty impressive looking team. I read somewhere around the France game that Schmidt had 15 players unavailable through injury, Earls, Zebo and Ross are obviously back now and a few more are available again but to still be able to field a team like this with so many injuries is pretty impressive.

Anyway.... I hope we get the win but I'd settle for a really good team performance and two really confident debuts from McCloskey and VDF, and Dillane if he gets on.

kuang1

Apologies mods...but I'm desperate...

Has anyone out there got a spare ticket for today....PLLLLEEEEEEAAAAASSSE?

Am on location at Twickenham so can meet there.