Child benefit for a dad

Zefff

Hi everyone, my wife and I have been in Tralee for about a month with our 8 month old. Luckily I am able to be self employed while I search for jobs, because the job market is a bit quiet here. As you can imagine, we'll take any bit of assistance we can, so I am currently filling out the application form for Child Benefit, and since we haven't been here long, the Habitual Resident Condition form to accompany it.

I (the father of our child) am the one applying since I have EU (UK) citizenship. My wife is Canadian. The farther I get with the application, however, the more I'm wondering if I'll run into problems for that very reason, not being the mother of the child. Will I?

I can't proceed any further with my application until I've received my tax registration number and print off 6 months of bank account history, so in the meantime, I'm wondering if people have any suggestions. Thanks very much.

haveringchick

In Ireland the CB is paid to the mother of the child if the mother of the child is living with the child
Get another form and proceed with the child's mother as the applicant
Your current application will be rejected

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Child-Benefit.aspx

Zefff

haveringchick wrote: »

In Ireland the CB is paid to the mother of the child if the mother of the child is living with the child
Get another form and proceed with the child's mother as the applicant
Your current application will be rejected

Really? I'd be mightily surprised if a Canadian could receive EU benefits. She doesn't even have her residence card yet, as we will most likely require my tax registration number that I have yet to receive for that application too.

Jayop

It's the biggest joke that I can't go to the post office and pick up our kids child allowance. It should be paid to whomever the parents want.

Zefff

Jayop wrote: »

It's the biggest joke that I can't go to the post office and pick up our kids child allowance. It should be paid to whomever the parents want.

I take it you're a dad then, and it really is true that a father can't receive child benefit on behalf of his family. Wow. That's just a wee bit old fashioned, isn't it?

billie1b

haveringchick wrote: »

In Ireland the CB is paid to the mother of the child if the mother of the child is living with the child
Get another form and proceed with the child's mother as the applicant
Your current application will be rejected

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Child-Benefit.aspx

Friend of mine (Male) is in receipt of his 2 kids CB

haveringchick

billie1b wrote: »

Friend of mine (Male) is in receipt of his 2 kids CB

Where is the mother of these kids though?
Or is it the case that the CB is paid into an account that he has access too?

billie1b

haveringchick wrote: »

Where is the mother of these kids though?
Or is it the case that the CB is paid into an account that he has access too?

No the CB is in his name, paid to his account, the mother lives here but they are seperated.

Jayop

Zefff wrote: »

I take it you're a dad then, and it really is true that a father can't receive child benefit on behalf of his family. Wow. That's just a wee bit old fashioned, isn't it?

I've not looked into it for years. We could have it paid into a bank account which would solve this issue but I've been asking herself to do that for over ten years and still no luck. Iirc she used to be able to sign the book and that would allow me to pick it up on her behalf.

Hopefully it's changed since then.

Gatling

billie1b wrote: »

No the CB is in his name, paid to his account, the mother lives here but they are seperated.

Who has the kids him or her

haveringchick

Zefff wrote: »

Really? I'd be mightily surprised if a Canadian could receive EU benefits. She doesn't even have her residence card yet, as we will most likely require my tax registration number that I have yet to receive for that application too.

I don't believe that I said that she was eligible, just that she must apply

Jayop

billie1b wrote: »

No the CB is in his name, paid to his account, the mother lives here but they are seperated.

Is he the primary care giver?

haveringchick

billie1b wrote: »

No the CB is in his name, paid to his account, the mother lives here but they are seperated.

So the man lives with his kids and the mother of the child lives seperatley
Well, that's not the case with the OP

Zefff

haveringchick wrote: »

I don't believe that I said that she was eligible, just that she must apply

Surely you'd agree that I, being the self employed EU citizen exercising my treaty rights, would have a better application than a Canadian who is (as of now still w/o her RC) only permitted to be here for a designated period of time.

Speedwell

Zefff wrote: »

Surely you'd agree that I, being the self employed EU citizen exercising my treaty rights, would have a better application than a Canadian who is (as of now still w/o her RC) only permitted to be here for a designated period of time.

Exercising your treaty rights? Good luck with that. I'm an American married to an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland who holds both passports (we needed him to have one and send one to the US for tax reasons shortly after we were married). He applied for some sort of jobseeker benefit and they told him to "go back to the UK" (naturally I don't qualify for a marriage visa for the UK), and that if he wanted to exercise his "rights" as an EU citizen he was only allowed to stay in Ireland for six months.

Zefff

Looks like I'll have to make a trip back to INTREO

Zefff

Speedwell wrote: »

Exercising your treaty rights? Good luck with that. I'm an American married to an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland who holds both passports (we needed him to have one and send one to the US for tax reasons shortly after we were married). He applied for some sort of jobseeker benefit and they told him to "go back to the UK" (naturally I don't qualify for a marriage visa for the UK), and that if he wanted to exercise his "rights" as an EU citizen he was only allowed to stay in Ireland for six months.

First I've heard of that. UK citizens are entitled to live in Ireland without any conditions or restrictions.

haveringchick

Zefff wrote: »

Surely you'd agree that I, being the self employed EU citizen exercising my treaty rights, would have a better application than a Canadian who is (as of now still w/o her RC) only permitted to be hgere for a designated period of time.

I'm not stopping you from applying at all
What I am telling you is that they will reject your application and send a fresh application for the mother of the children to complete.
Those are the rules. As always we may not agree with the rules, but there you go.
That is my professional advice but you should really go ahead and proceed whichever way you like.

Speedwell

Zefff wrote: »

First I've heard of that. UK citizens are entitled to live in Ireland without any conditions or restrictions.

I know, right? There's some clause, to be sure, about EU citizens without income and a six-month rule. But not only can he live here without restrictions as a UK citizen, but he's an Irish citizen. But that's what they said, more than once. Sheer incompetence.

haveringchick needs a hug and a glass of wine as a rule, but she's right on the facts.

Zefff

haveringchick wrote: »

I'm not stopping you from applying at all
What I am telling you is that they will reject your application and send a fresh application for the mother of the children to complete.
Those are the rules. As always we may not agree with the rules, but there you go.
That is my professional advice but you should really go ahead and proceed whichever way you like.

I realize you're not stopping me, and I do really appreciate your input.
It would, however, be futile for my wife to apply, if Social Welfare Services does indeed go by EU law.

haveringchick

Speedwell wrote: »

Exercising your treaty rights? Good luck with that. I'm an American married to an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland who holds both passports (we needed him to have one and send one to the US for tax reasons shortly after we were married). He applied for some sort of jobseeker benefit and they told him to "go back to the UK" (naturally I don't qualify for a marriage visa for the UK), and that if he wanted to exercise his "rights" as an EU citizen he was only allowed to stay in Ireland for six months.

If her were in receipt of JSB in the UK for 4 weeks before he came to Ireland then he could have transferred his JSB from UK to Ireland for 58 days, but he would have needed to do that BEFORE he left the UK

haveringchick

haveringchick wrote: »

If her were in receipt of JSB in the UK for 4 weeks before he came to Ireland then he could have transferred his JSB from UK to Ireland for 58 days, but he would have needed to do that BEFORE he left the UK

Sorry 78 days

Speedwell

haveringchick wrote: »

Sorry 78 days

Yes, you are correct. Unfortunately that was not the situation we were in. Good info, though.

haveringchick

Zefff wrote: »

I realize you're not stopping me, and I do really appreciate your input.
It would, however, be futile for my wife to apply, if Social Welfare Services does indeed go by EU law.

I'm interested as to where you see EU law being breached by the Dept of Social Protection
If you could point is to the Act you are referring to then it would be helpful

Zefff

Speedwell wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. Unfortunately that was not the situation we were in. Good info, though.

So if you're living in N Ireland now, you must have done the Surinder Singh route, did you?

Speedwell

Zefff wrote: »

So if you're living in N Ireland now, you must have done the Surinder Singh route, did you?

Nope, I live in Sligo as a Stamp 4 "spouse of an Irish citizen". You don't qualify for Surinder Singh as a dual citizen, it turns out; you have to "exercise your treaty rights" in an EU country of which you are NOT a citizen for SS to kick in (for him, anywhere but Ireland and the UK). There are less than a hundred people in the world in this exact position, I am given to understand, lol. I have slightly over a year to go before I am eligible to apply for citizenship here, and then we could consider moving to the UK under EU migration laws if they are still part of the EU, or if they are not part of the EU and allow free movement to Irish citizens. But the fact is we would rather stay in Ireland!

haveringchick

Speedwell wrote: »

I know, right? There's some clause, to be sure, about EU citizens without income and a six-month rule. But not only can he live here without restrictions as a UK citizen, but he's an Irish citizen. But that's what they said, more than once. Sheer incompetence.

haveringchick needs a hug and a glass of wine as a rule, but she's right on the facts.

If there was "sheer incompetence " on behalf of the Dept. then how did your Appeal go? Surely the desicion to refuse was overturned, and if not then what reason was given? Did you go to the Ombudsman? They root out any incompetence very quickly. You can go to their website and see many cases brought to their attention and as a result justice is restored
Or is it simply the case that your OH just wasn't entitled, end of story?

Speedwell

haveringchick wrote: »

If there was "sheer incompetence " on behalf of the Dept. then how did your Appeal go? Surely the desicion to refuse was overturned, and if not then what reason was given? Did you go to the Ombudsman? They root out any incompetence very quickly. You can go to their website and see many cases brought to their attention and as a result justice is restored
Or is it simply the case that your OH just wasn't entitled, end of story?

Or, the appeal was decided by the same incompetent who made the original decision. But I am touched by your faith in the system, absolutely brings a tear to my eyes.

billie1b

haveringchick wrote: »

So the man lives with his kids and the mother of the child lives seperatley
Well, that's not the case with the OP

But you said the CB is paid to the mother in Ireland, not always the case, my friend has joint custody but he is the primary and gets the CB. You also said that the mother gets it if she lives with the child, which is also not true, a work friend of mine lives with his 2 daughters here, has full custody through a Polish court and the mum lives in Poland, yet he doesn't get it as the CB offices wont recognise the court order and told him he has to bring the mother to court here in Ireland to get it changed, every year in January she get a cheque for the previous 12 months benefit in Ireland.

Zefff

haveringchick wrote: »

I'm interested as to where you see EU law being breached by the Dept of Social Protection
If you could point is to the Act you are referring to then it would be helpful

I can't point to any act. That's part of the reason I created this thread. I simply thought that, being the EU citizen, I would be entitled to any EU benefits, but I am learning that isn't the case.

If my Canadian wife who is here on a 90 day entry passport stamp can complete the Habitual Residence Condition, then she may well be eligible for receipt of EU assistance, and that just kind of blows my mind haha.

haveringchick

Speedwell wrote: »

Or, the appeal was decided by the same incompetent who made the original decision. But I am touched by your faith in the system, absolutely brings a tear to my eyes.

But the desicion to refuse was made by a DO at a local Office and your Appeal should have been to D'Olier St so that wouldn't be right.
Once again alleged incompetence is one of the reasons we have an Ombudsman, and it's really easy to take a case, surely you would if your that sure that there's been this huge cock up in your OHs application

Zefff

Speedwell wrote: »

Nope, I live in Sligo as a Stamp 4 "spouse of an Irish citizen". You don't qualify for Surinder Singh as a dual citizen, it turns out; you have to "exercise your treaty rights" in an EU country of which you are NOT a citizen for SS to kick in (for him, anywhere but Ireland and the UK). There are less than a hundred people in the world in this exact position, I am given to understand, lol. I have slightly over a year to go before I am eligible to apply for citizenship here, and then we could consider moving to the UK under EU migration laws if they are still part of the EU, or if they are not part of the EU and allow free movement to Irish citizens. But the fact is we would rather stay in Ireland!

We are currently attempting SS. I am UK/Candian.

Speedwell

haveringchick wrote: »

But the desicion to refuse was made by a DO at a local Office and your Appeal should have been to D'Olier St so that wouldn't be right.
Once again alleged incompetence is one of the reasons we have an Ombudsman, and it's really easy to take a case, surely you would if your that sure that there's been this huge cock up in your OHs application

Sweetie, I wish things always worked the way they should work. Of course, if you are the incompetent in question, I've probably already said enough about our case. I'm working, anyway, so we are OK for the present, and the mill of government will grind how it will.

haveringchick

Zefff wrote: »

I can't point to any act. That's part of the reason I created this thread. I simply thought that, being the EU citizen, I would be entitled to any EU benefits, but I am learning that isn't the case.

If my Canadian wife who is here on a 90 day entry passport stamp can complete the Habitual Residence Condition, then she may well be eligible for receipt of EU assistance, and that just kind of blows my mind haha.

If you go to the welfare website and search for CB and click on the Operational Guidelines you will see the Irish legislation concerning CB. I'm fairly confident that if it was contrary to EU legislation, someone would have taken a case to Brussels by now

Speedwell

Zefff wrote: »

We are currently attempting SS. I am UK/Candian.

You'll probably succeed; most people who are not Irish and attempt SS through Ireland do, unless there are additional complications. Be aware that you (the EU citizen exercising right of free movement) have to live and work in the "third" country for the necessary amount of time to qualify under SS. I am not so sure that your wife qualifies under habitual residency, if only because you have the intention to live elsewhere after a few months. But best of luck to you both

haveringchick

Speedwell wrote: »

Sweetie, I wish things always worked the way they should work. Of course, if you are the incompetent in question, I've probably already said enough about our case. I'm working, anyway, so we are OK for the present, and the mill of government will grind how it will.

I'm not incompetent. I think your family didn't qualify for a payment you were sure you were entitled to and the easiest thing to ease the disappointment is to label the person who was, after all, just applying the rules(we all accept there must be some rules) incompetent and walk away.
It's ok, I get that.

Speedwell

haveringchick wrote: »

I'm not incompetent. I think your family didn't qualify for a payment you were sure you were entitled to and the easiest thing to ease the disappointment is to label the person who was, after all, just applying the rules(we all accept there must be some rules) incompetent and walk away.
It's ok, I get that.

Well, you are certainly quick with the assumptions. You happen to be wrong, and your condescension is noted. Is there, then, a rule that someone who holds both UK and Irish citizenship must leave Ireland after six months for exercising UK treaty rights, as the official insisted? Perhaps the applicants you process would be better off if you actually cared about the facts of the case instead. Since that is not your style, I'm not engaging with you again on this subject, unless we are unfortunate enough to cross your path in the future processing of the case.

haveringchick

Zefff wrote: »

We are currently attempting SS. I am UK/Candian.

Best of luck. The more mix up in the gene pool here the better!

haveringchick

Speedwell wrote: »

Well, you are certainly quick with the assumptions. You happen to be wrong, and your condescension is noted. Perhaps the applicants you process would be better off if you actually cared about the facts of the case instead. Since that is not your style, I'm not engaging with you again on this subject, unless we are unfortunate enough to cross your path in the future processing of the case.

I've never processed an applicant for anything in my life

Speedwell

haveringchick wrote: »

I've never processed an applicant for anything in my life

Well, there is a God after all.

ahnowbrowncow

haveringchick wrote: »

I've never processed an applicant for anything in my life

You certainly seem to have some sort of vested interest as anytime there's a children's benefit thread you're there posting and questioning father's who claim it

esforum

Zefff wrote: »

Really? I'd be mightily surprised if a Canadian could receive EU benefits. She doesn't even have her residence card yet, as we will most likely require my tax registration number that I have yet to receive for that application too.

If they are both dependent on you she will still qualify once she has residency however as she is non EU expect regular letters from the department which she will have to keep filling out and returning, probable every 3 months.

Jayop wrote: »

It's the biggest joke that I can't go to the post office and pick up our kids child allowance. It should be paid to whomever the parents want.

Should and could but sadly at the moment, still isnt.

haveringchick

Speedwell wrote: »

Well, there is a God after all.

Ah now it's yourself needs the hug and the glass of wine speedwell

haveringchick

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

You certainly seem to have some sort of vested interest as anytime there's a children's benefit thread you're there posting and questioning father's who claim it

Maybe I'm just helpful?

cee_jay

This is a helpful forum. All posts should be constructive and helpful to the OP. Also, as per the forum charter, excessive sarkiness will not be tolerated
If posters post here who happen to be staff of the Department of Social Protection:
1. They do NOT have to declare this
2. They are doing so in a personal capacity
There are no official Department representatives posting on Boards.ie. There should be no thinly veiled implications that other posters are Department staff.

Also posts in this forum should be constructive and helpful. Condescending, sarcastic, sarky posts are not welcome in this forum.

CJ

Jayop

haveringchick wrote: »

I'm not incompetent. I think your family didn't qualify for a payment you were sure you were entitled to and the easiest thing to ease the disappointment is to label the person who was, after all, just applying the rules(we all accept there must be some rules) incompetent and walk away.
It's ok, I get that.

You don't think it's incompetent for someone who processes these claims to tell an Irish born citizen that they can only stay in the country for six months? Regardless of the claim (I think you need to have paid stamps before being able to claim Irish social) that statement alone reeks of gross incompetence.

esforum

Zefff wrote: »

First I've heard of that. UK citizens are entitled to live in Ireland without any conditions or restrictions.

That was changed in 2012. All EU nations can now demand a person prove they will not be 'a burden on the recieving' state however they cant actually remove you or punish you, just refuse your applications for permament residency. Ireland is actually easier than a lot of other places when it comes to obtaining residency.

haveringchick wrote: »

I'm interested as to where you see EU law being breached by the Dept of Social Protection
If you could point is to the Act you are referring to then it would be helpful

We have been down this road before and it was all spelt out for you

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=98427430

njs030

Speedwell wrote: »

Well, you are certainly quick with the assumptions. You happen to be wrong, and your condescension is noted. Is there, then, a rule that someone who holds both UK and Irish citizenship must leave Ireland after six months for exercising UK treaty rights, as the official insisted? Perhaps the applicants you process would be better off if you actually cared about the facts of the case instead. Since that is not your style, I'm not engaging with you again on this subject, unless we are unfortunate enough to cross your path in the future processing of the case.

I'm a British citizen living in Ireland and was also told to get a job or go back to the UK. It's pretty unlikely speedwell's husband and I saw the same person in sw!

Zefff

esforum wrote: »

That was changed in 2012. All EU nations can now demand a person prove they will not be 'a burden on the recieving' state however they cant actually remove you or punish you, just refuse your applications for permament residency. Ireland is actually easier than a lot of other places when it comes to obtaining residency.



I showed you the EU findings in relation to this before. In Irish law its a breach of the equality act on 2 of the 9 grounds; marital status and gender. Theres currently a number of complaints with the quality board but they take years.

Despite my obvious interest in receiving the Child Benefit, I've been wondering all along wether it might be in our best interest to avoid any kind of assistance whatsoever, effectively minimizing our risk of being considered a "burden", especially since we're going SS.

Gatling

notjustsweet wrote: »

I'm a British citizen living in Ireland and was also told to get a job or go back to the UK. It's pretty unlikely speedwell's husband and I saw the same person in sw!

It's actually the same in the uk ,

When I lived in the uk I had to attend the local job center to get my official tax number /social security number,
When I arrived at the appointment with all my documents and ID I was handed a train and ferry ticket to go home as I would be better off at home getting benefits excerpt I was working there full time and was renting a flat .

I believe it's common enough to hear on both sides of the sea

Jayop

notjustsweet wrote: »

I'm a British citizen living in Ireland and was also told to get a job or go back to the UK. It's pretty unlikely speedwell's husband and I saw the same person in sw!

Her husband if from NI. He's an Irish born citizen with an Irish passport and the same rights to live in Ireland as any other Irish citizen.