Replacing APT timer

ninja 12

At the moment I have an APT timer (like the one pictured below) controlling the boiler .

There is no thermostat , no 7 day timer etc .

Just on or off .



I absolutely hate the look of it , and the whirring noise it makes .

It's on the wall in my sitting room .


I'm looking to replace it with a more modern 7 day timer and came across the Heatmiser Smartstat .

Link - https://www.heatmiser.com/smart-thermostat/


It looks like a nice unit and has the bonus of connecting to Wi-Fi , so I can use my phone to turn the heating on / off .



Should it be a straight forward swap of units ? Just disconnect the APT and replace with the new one ?

Any advice ?

Thanks

ninja 12

Any ideas ? Should it be a simple swap without needing any additional wiring ?

Are Heatmiser Timers any good / reliable ?


Thanks

Tom44

Yes it's a simple swap if you know what your doing.
But you need to cross some wires and put in a link and know if its a volt free switching system.

Yes it's a good make of clock.

I'd call an electrican or an experienced plumber.

ninja 12

Tom44 wrote: »

Yes it's a simple swap if you know what your doing.
But you need to cross some wires and put in a link and know if its a volt free switching system.

Yes it's a good make of clock.

I'd call an electrican or an experienced plumber.

Volt free ?

How would that affect compatibility with the heatmiser ?

I plan on ordering later today .

Thanks

ninja 12

Here's the wiring behind the current APT timeswitch .











.

Tom44

Volt free.
Just sorting the men from the boys !
No offence mate,

Just highlighting whats simple english to an experienced installer.

No, your system is not volt free, but connecting a new clock is not the easiest thing to do if your not 100%
If not, you might blow the new clock and pcb on boiler = €400 +

Apposed to to €50 - €60 on an electrician.

ninja 12

Tom44 wrote: »

Volt free.
Just sorting the men from the boys !
No offence mate,

Just highlighting whats simple english to an experienced installer.

No, your system is not volt free, but connecting a new clock is not the easiest thing to do if your not 100%
If not, you might blow the new clock and pcb on boiler = €400 +

Apposed to to €50 - €60 on an electrician.

I've got a friend who's an electrician and he'll connect for me .

Just wanted to make sure the heatmiser would work without any problems .

Thanks

ninja 12

Just to update this .

Amazon made a mess of an order I made that included a Heatmiser SmartStat , meaning there was a delay of well over a week before it was shipped ( even though everything was in stock )

Anyway , my order eventually got delivered so I set about replacing the APT time clock .


The APT clock was mounted using a surface mounted pattress box that was about 30mm deep , and the Heatmiser needs a box with a minimum of 35mm depth .

I bought one with a depth of nearly 50mm , due to the excess wiring behind the existing clock , just to make sure I had enough room .


I will eventually sort / tidy the excess wiring and bury a proper back box and end up with the SmartStat flush mounded on the wall . ( It's been added to my never ending list of things to do )

Even as it is with a deeper pattress box than before , it doesn't stick out as much as the APT did .




Impressions so far are positive .

It can be set as a basic time clock , a 24 hour timer, a 7 day timer with different settings for on/off , and it can also be set as weekday / weekend timer .

There's also a "hold temperature "option that overrides whatever settings are active for a user selected time .


There is no manual option to dim the display , there is a light sensor built in .
Within a second or two of turning off the sitting room light , the display dims considerably and it is easy to read , day or night .


There is also an Android / Apple app .





I use the Android version.

It connects to the Heatmiser servers using your wifi , and there is no subscription / recurring charge .


The basic functions work fine , but sometimes selecting "settings" make the app crash and log me out .
I believe I'm not the only one and understand that there is an updated app on it's way soon .


I've had the SmartStat disconnect from my wifi a few times , my router is a couple of rooms away (block built bungalow) so I'm guessing that the wifi receiver isn't as good as the one in my phone .

A wifi booster has been recommended on the Heatmiser support forum , I'm not the only one it's happened to .



Tried it out on Sunday last.
We were in Northern Ireland and not sure what time we would be heading home so didn't set the timer .

Pulled in at Castlebellingham services on the M1 on the way home for something to eat , and while there opened the app and turned on the heating .

House was nice and warm when we got in , and the heating had turned off when the house was up to temp , whereas with the APT the heating would stay on no matter what the temp was , if it was set to come on .


So far , pleased with the purchase .

Any questions , ask away .

kyomi

Lots of useful information there.

Does it have a separate setting for hot water, and can you have heating zones? I notice on the screenshot of the app it says "Sitting Room," so does that mean you can have different settings for different rooms?

ninja 12

kyomi wrote: »

Lots of useful information there.

Does it have a separate setting for hot water, and can you have heating zones? I notice on the screenshot of the app it says "Sitting Room," so does that mean you can have different settings for different rooms?

Hi ,

There is no separate setting for hot water .
My setup is one zone - heating and water is either on or off . No separate controls .

From what I understand , an additional Smartstat could be installed as a timeclock , connected to my immersion switch , but I'm not going to .


Where you see "Sitting Room" in my screenshot , up to 32 SmartStats can be in one house and all be controlled from the app , so 32 zones , without using the Heatmiser Hub (assuming that plumbing and electrics suit)


Here's a review I found - http://www.thegreenage.co.uk/heatmiser-smartstat-review-march-2016/



The reason I didn't go for a learning thermostat like Nest was because sometimes we light the fire (with back boiler) and not use the oil heating .





Something like the Heatmiser NeoKit 2 , is sold as a kit for water and heating , and comes with their Neo Hub , and other items (more stats ,sockets etc) can be added , whereas the SmartStat I bought is a standalone unit .

The SmartStat I bought is £125 for one stat , whereas the NeoKit 2 is £265 , not worth it for what I wanted to do .

I've sent an email to Heatmiser about the stat disconnecting from wifi before I pick up a wifi booster , just to make sure it will sort it , waiting to hear back .


Hope this helps .

chief robert

Just out of curiosity - did you get your pal the Electrician to wire it up for you, or did you do it yourself?
It sounds like you did it yourself but earlier you said you had a pal who was going to do it for you.

Any moments of panic along the way (in terms of how the hell do I know which wire goes where?)

Thanks,

Rob

ninja 12

chief robert wrote: »

Just out of curiosity - did you get your pal the Electrician to wire it up for you, or did you do it yourself?
It sounds like you did it yourself but earlier you said you had a pal who was going to do it for you.

Any moments of panic along the way (in terms of how the hell do I know which wire goes where?)

Thanks,

Rob

Hi,

I wired it myself , just double checked with him over the phone before I went ahead , although he'll be down in a couple of weeks and we'll tidy the excess wiring ( post 5 , first pic ) so I can sink a back box and end up with it flush mounted .

He wants to have a look at it anyway , as he's thinking of changing the heating controls in his own house and likes the idea of being able to use his phone to control the heating .

No major panic , there was a label for the wiring on the base of the APT timer for wiring , besides , I had my electrician friend on the phone and my trusty phase tester at the ready ( and power turned off , safety first etc. )

It was straight forward , once I knew which wire was which .

I've wired sockets , lights before , but never had to go near a thermostat until now. The heatmiser can be wired for switched live , volt free or time clock .

jca

That looks very good. Does the timer have its own thermostat? Your system sounds similar to mine except I don't have any solid fuel appliances it's oil only. Am I correct in thinking if I get this timer it will switch the heating off when it detects the temperature has risen to a pre set value.

ninja 12

jca wrote: »

That looks very good. Does the timer have its own thermostat? Your system sounds similar to mine except I don't have any solid fuel appliances it's oil only. Am I correct in thinking if I get this timer it will switch the heating off when it detects the temperature has risen to a pre set value.

Hi ,
It works exactly as you described.


If I set it to 20 degrees ,when the room temp gets to 20 it switches off , and when room temp drops to 19.5 it comes back on .


it works as a standalone unit with a built in temperature sensor , but an external sensor can also be connected if required .

A floor temperature probe can be connected , and in the setup menu you can select what sensor you want to use (internal, external or floor)
You can then set it to use either the room temp or the floor temp .

I'm just using the inbuilt sensor .


You can also decide not to use the temperature at all and just use it as a timer

Hope this helps .

ninja 12

In post #8 , I mentioned two minor issues .

1 - Wi-Fi disconnecting at random
2 - the Android app crashing if I tried to access the settings .

I ordered a Wi-Fi extender yesterday (Sunday ) from Amazon , and it hasn't disconnected since . Typical :rolleyes:

I'm not going to cancel the order , it'll give me a bit more range into the garden and better signal in the kitchen anyway .



I received a reply from Heatmiser about the two issues this morning and they recommend a Wi-Fi extender for the signal issues .
I'd imagine that if my router was nearer my sitting room I wouldn't need one .

They also said that they are aware of the issues with the app and are working on a fix .


Still pleased with the Heatmiser

jca

ninja 12 wrote: »

Hi ,
It works exactly as you described.


If I set it to 20 degrees ,when the room temp gets to 20 it switches off , and when room temp drops to 19.5 it comes back on .


it works as a standalone unit with a built in temperature sensor , but an external sensor can also be connected if required .

A floor temperature probe can be connected , and in the setup menu you can select what sensor you want to use (internal, external or floor)
You can then set it to use either the room temp or the floor temp .

I'm just using the inbuilt sensor .


You can also decide not to use the temperature at all and just use it as a timer

Hope this helps .

Brilliant thanks for the very helpful explanation. If it's on the timer with a half hour left before turn off and the temperature reaches the set temp will it turn off? I use the oil to heat the water with the rads off in the summer, is there a manual override button?

ninja 12

jca wrote: »

Brilliant thanks for the very helpful explanation. If it's on the timer with a half hour left before turn off and the temperature reaches the set temp will it turn off? I use the oil to heat the water with the rads off in the summer, is there a manual override button?

Yes it will turn off when it gets to temp .


There is a "temperature hold " option that works as a manual override.

Press "hold" , select how long , say an hour for example , and then select temperature .

That should work for you , just set a high temp so it won't turn off , or you go into the settings and change it to time clock mode for the summer , with the rads turned off . ( I assume that should work , don't blame me if it doesn't )



The manual is available on the heatmiser site , and worth a flick through .

jca

ninja 12 wrote: »

Yes it will turn off when it gets to temp .


There is a "temperature hold " option that works as a manual override.

Press "hold" , select how long , say an hour for example , and then select temperature .

That should work for you , just set a high temp so it won't turn off , or you go into the settings and change it to time clock mode for the summer , with the rads turned off . ( I assume that should work , don't blame me if it doesn't )



The manual is available on the heatmiser site , and worth a flick through .

Very helpful many thanks. I'm very tempted to purchase. There's no thermostat on my system and the house can get very warm if there's no one there to switch it off.

ninja 12

jca wrote: »

Very helpful many thanks. I'm very tempted to purchase. There's no thermostat on my system and the house can get very warm if there's no one there to switch it off.

I was the same , set the timer and head out ( while guessing what time we would get home ) .

Come home and the heating still on , with the house like a sweatbox

At least with the heatmiser , the heating turns off , so the house is a more acceptable temp , and less oil used as well .

Now it doesn't matter if we're late or early heading home we can adjust the timer and temperature on the heating from the app



One thing I should mention ,

To use the app on a phone , both for Android or Iphone , an internet connection and wireless router is required .

This is because the stat connects directly to the Heatmiser servers using your wifi .

If your internet is down , the phone app can't be used , even if you're at home .


To me , being able to use my phone is a bonus , if I'm at home I'm hardly going to use the app anyway , I'll just press a button on the unit itself

jca

ninja 12 wrote: »

I was the same , set the timer and head out ( while guessing what time we would get home ) .

Come home and the heating still on , with the house like a sweatbox

At least with the heatmiser , the heating turns off , so the house is a more acceptable temp , and less oil used as well .

Now it doesn't matter if we're late or early heading home we can adjust the timer and temperature on the heating from the app



One thing I should mention ,

To use the app on a phone , both for Android or Iphone , an internet connection and wireless router is required .

This is because the stat connects directly to the Heatmiser servers using your wifi .

If your internet is down , the phone app can't be used , even if you're at home .


To me , being able to use my phone is a bonus , if I'm at home I'm hardly going to use the app anyway , I'll just press a button on the unit itself

Internet isn't a problem and the timer would only be a few feet from the router so I shouldn't have any wireless issues. Mine will be inside in a coat press so it should have a good indication of the house temperature. Was it difficult to wire up?

ninja 12

jca wrote: »

Internet isn't a problem and the timer would only be a few feet from the router so I shouldn't have any wireless issues. Mine will be inside in a coat press so it should have a good indication of the house temperature. Was it difficult to wire up?

It was easy enough to wire .

Just Neutral , Live and Switched Live connections . 4 wires in total ( Live x2 ) , as per page 30 of the manual .
I can't link directly to manual , but you can find it here -
https://www.heatmiser.com/en/heatmiser-manuals/

Hope this helps ,

Any other questions , just shout

BunkMoreland

Was looking to replace the same old timer you had and will definitely purchase what you got.

Thanks for the research!

ninja 12

BunkMoreland wrote: »

Was looking to replace the same old timer you had and will definitely purchase what you got.

Thanks for the research!

Just as long as I don't get blamed if it doesn't live up to expectations or work properly , but for me it's exactly what I wanted .

It gives me the same control over my heating that I had in my last house , with some extras ( app control , away mode etc. )

BunkMoreland

ninja 12 wrote: »

Just as long as I don't get blamed if it doesn't live up to expectations or work properly , but for me it's exactly what I wanted .

It gives me the same control over my heating that I had in my last house , with some extras ( app control , away mode etc. )

Mostly I am looking for something more attractive and less noisy than what I have.

Did you get white, silver or black?

ninja 12

BunkMoreland wrote: »

Mostly I am looking for something more attractive and less noisy than what I have.

Did you get white, silver or black?

I got the white one , as all other plug sockets , light switches etc are white .

Black or silver would stand out too much , given the colour of my sitting room wall .

I got mine from Amazon as I needed a few other items as well but it can be ordered direct from Heatmiser .
I'm not sure what Heatmiser's postage costs are but it qualifies for free postage on Amazon .

galljga1

I have two zones and hot water each controlled by APT timers, room/immersion stats and on/off valves. The timers are in the hot press and are the weak spots. They seem to be a bit delicate. While accessing the top shelves in the hot press, it is very easy to hit off them with your elbow. All three are missing prongs (or whatever the inn out switches are called) and the clocks have stopped revolving. So it is either off or on. this is after two years.
Can anyone recommend a more robust timer with the same footprint or one with a cover?

hufpc8w3adnk65

galljga1 wrote: »

I have two zones and hot water each controlled by APT timers, room/immersion stats and on/off valves. The timers are in the hot press and are the weak spots. They seem to be a bit delicate. While accessing the top shelves in the hot press, it is very easy to hit off them with your elbow. All three are missing prongs (or whatever the inn out switches are called) and the clocks have stopped revolving. So it is either off or on. this is after two years.
Can anyone recommend a more robust timer with the same footprint or one with a cover?

Get a sparks too install a good digital 3 zone click and move the timer outside the hotpress and put it in the hallway where it will have less chance of damage

galljga1

MrMac84 wrote: »

Get a sparks too install a good digital 3 zone click and move the timer outside the hotpress and put it in the hallway where it will have less chance of damage

That is the way I will go. Why this was not done in the first place, I do not know. I left it up to the plumber and sparks when they were doing the rezoning. I should have paid more attention.
Any recommendations on brand/model?

hufpc8w3adnk65

I like the EPH controllers. Easy too use. Easy too install. Very user friendly afterwards for the home owner and it has built in stat that you can program heating too turn on its self if the house drops below a certain temperature

galljga1

MrMac84 wrote: »

I like the EPH controllers. Easy too use. Easy too install. Very user friendly afterwards for the home owner and it has built in stat that you can program heating too turn on its self if the house drops below a certain temperature

Yeah, the T37 HW looks good. I have a few other jobs lined up for my local sparks. I need to go around the whole house and write down what needs to be done. I hate spotting/remembering something a week after the jobs are done.
Anyway, thanks for your input.

wandererz

I have installed Heatmiser Neostat-e thermostats for my electric underfloor heating and today i got the timeclock for the immersion replaced with a Neostat-HW timer.

Neostat-e is required for Electric Underfloor Heating.
Neostat-hw is just a timeclock for your hotwater.
Regular Neostat is required for all other heating systems.

Everything now easily controlled and working beautifully in my apartment with no wireless issues.

Will do a post to explain my setup as well.

johnnyboy08

I had been looking at these Heatmiser control and was wondering how they worked compared to other controls like EPH.

Would I be right in saying that instead of a central programmer/timer connecting to 2 zone thermostats and a cylinder stat (like EPH) that the timing and temperature are set on the Heatmiser neostats individually?

For example if I have a neostat downstairs and upstairs then to make a time change (e.g. for summer time) example then both would need to be updated?

wandererz

Yes. Each would need to be updated.
However, there is a copy function as well. So make the change on one and select the copy option and select which other zones you want to copy the changes to.

johnnyboy08

wandererz wrote: »

Yes. Each would need to be updated.
However, there is a copy function as well. So make the change on one and select the copy option and select which other zones you want to copy the changes to.

Grand, the only gap I can see with these is the hot water. The Heatmiser neoStat hw is a timer only so isn't a thermostat so there's nothing to turn off the hot water flow to the cylinder when a certain temp is reached while the timer is on. Shame really, it would be a complete kit if there was a stat like that.

Wearb

johnnyboy08 wrote: »

so there's nothing to turn off the hot water flow to the cylinder when a certain temp is reached while the timer is on.

You could always wire a regular cylinder/pipe stat in series with it. Should be there already anyway.

johnnyboy08

Wearb wrote: »

You could always wire a regular cylinder/pipe stat in series with it. Should be there already anyway.

Good point, have to check if the neostat hw can be hooked up to a thermostat and motorised valve

wandererz

The cylinder should have a Thermostat built into it anyway? Usually a pencil type adjuster that you can set the temp to.

johnnyboy08

wandererz wrote: »

The cylinder should have a Thermostat built into it anyway? Usually a pencil type adjuster that you can set the temp to.

I don't think it does so the plumber was going to put one one and a motorised valve to regulate the water flow. The neostat hw should be able to be the middle man between boiler, stat and valve from what I can tell...that's assuming I'm reading the wiring diagram correctly

wandererz

Also, note that I had to use a contactor for the neostat-hw. It is only 3A, so didn't realise it and blew the first one.

Electrician installed together with contactor to do the switching and all works perfect.

BTW, if you need a good electrician around the Dublin area i can 100% recommend the guy who connected my stuff.

johnnyboy08

Cheers, thanks for the offer, I'm in the South East though hence finding it a little tough to find the people to fit these. the plumber I have is a good guy though and is only getting his head around the smart stats now so this will be a baptism of fire of sorts for him and the electrician. I think both will need to be on site at the same time to figure it out, it can't be rocket science.
Just out of interest, what sort of setup do you have? Is it the combination of neostats for zones, neostat hw for hot water and connected up on a neoHub? Did you order these directly from heatmiser or use a vendor like amazon?

wandererz

johnnyboy08 wrote: »

Cheers, thanks for the offer, I'm in the South East though hence finding it a little tough to find the people to fit these. the plumber I have is a good guy though and is only getting his head around the smart stats now so this will be a baptism of fire of sorts for him and the electrician. I think both will need to be on site at the same time to figure it out, it can't be rocket science.
Just out of interest, what sort of setup do you have? Is it the combination of neostats for zones, neostat hw for hot water and connected up on a neoHub? Did you order these directly from heatmiser or use a vendor like amazon?

My setup may be slightly different in terms of neostats used as i have electric underfloor heating. So i had to get the neostat-E ("E" being for electric underfloor heating).

So i have 3 of those (Lounge, Kitchen and Main Bedroom).

Then i have a Neostat-HW for my immersion. This is just a timer clock replacement.

All of them connect wirelessly to the neohub.
The Neohub then connects via a wired Ethernet connection to my broadband modem/router.

So the Neohub connects to the Heatmiser servers via the internet. And the app on my phone or tablet allows me to control them.

For each of the 3 heating zones i can set times and temperatures.

For the Hot Water Cylinder i can set the on and off times and also boost if i need it on outside of those hours.
Does this make me lazy compared to heading to the hot press and flicking the switches?
I now have greater control and can switch it off or on from wherever i am whenever i want to.

I was in London last month and realised that nobody was going to be in the house for the rest of the day so was able to switch the heating & immersion off from my phone.

Same during st Patrick's day weekend when we were away.

I've since gotten a neoplug to control a lamp as well.

I ordered directly from Heatmisershop.co.uk. They do have a stiff delivery charge of 20 euro or so, but everything is fedexed so no having to wait very long at all.

In Ireland, Polytherm on the Naas Road in Dublin supply them as well. Although pricing was a bit more and they didn't seem to understand the Neohub wireless system, couldn't answer my questions on neostat-e etc.

So took a chance and went it on my own instead as a learning experience.

Originally ordered 2 standard Neostats rather than the "e" version by lack of knowledge. So also have these available if anyone is interested.

johnnyboy08

Would I be right in you don't have any wiring to worry about going from your neoStat-e setup back to the boiler then?

Just looking at the wiring diagram for the neoStat-e and they look like standalone units with the matting/wire going straight in. Nice approach that I have to say.

I think I'd have a bit more to do with mine with motorised valves and neoStats, each of which have to go back to the boiler. The wiring center should take care of all that though and allows for 4 zones + hot water.

wandererz

johnnyboy08 wrote: »

Would I be right in you don't have any wiring to worry about going from your neoStat-e setup back to the boiler then?

Just looking at the wiring diagram for the neoStat-e and they look like standalone units with the matting/wire going straight in. Nice approach that I have to say.

I think I'd have a bit more to do with mine with motorised valves and neoStats, each of which have to go back to the boiler. The wiring center should take care of all that though and allows for 4 zones + hot water.

For the underfloor heating in the kitchen, under tile, i have electric matting. This connects straight to the Neostat-e.

For the other areas, under engineered wood flooring i have Calorique sheets. Which is a plastic/film with a rolled/flattened element going through it. This also connects to neostat-e's for each room.

It's only the electric immersion which uses the neostat-hw and a contactor.

The contactor does make a fairly audible noise when switching on and off.

When i was investigating Nest, my underfloor heating supplier mentioned i would need a contactor for it as well. Thankfully i went with Heatmiser. No contactor required for underfloor heating and a barely audible click when it switches.

Initially, having an all electric apartment with storage heaters was a pain.
After insulating outer walls and installing underfloor heating with Heatmiser controls I couldn't be happier. Home is always warm compared to storage heaters exhausting themselves by mid to late afternoon and having to switch on fan heater.
I don't care what the "experts" say, storage heaters are the work of the devil.

Life is meant to be lived and enjoyed. That means not living like our caveman ancestors and also not having to have to wear a jumper in my own home.

This is one instance where technology plays a huge role in improving ones quality of life.
Totally worth it until the next best thing comes along to supercede it.

toby2111

Guys,advice needed. I have an APT timer exactly like the one the OP posted and want to switch it. An electrician said it would be about €150 to put in a decent 2 channel device that I'm looking for. He said to check out Nest or Climote with electricity suppliers and Electric Ireland offer free Nest and installation.I know its 2 year contract with no discounted tariff but it'll work out about €100 extra per year on a 2 year contract. So if I'm gonna pay €150 for a 2 channel device, should I just go with a Nest? I know the Nest is only a thermometer but does it have similar functionality to a 7 day programmer?Need it to control water and heating.